Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition general thread.
>Core rulebooks, adventure modules, Unearthed Arcana
>Pastebin with homebrew list, resources and so on:
What's in your character's backpack?
Nm, I found it. Forgot I had it uploaded somewhere. Here it is for anyone that cares.
20x Seeds of various Plants
Component Pouch (w/ Spell components)
Map of Local County (Quest Item which is now useless)
Plus Yew Club for hittin' shit
For a 6th level Bearbarian (4 Druid 2 Barb) I'm surprised he was the one who got the map first.
Also to clarrify something on multi-classing.
Since I multi-classed into Barbarian from Druid, do I get to take Rage and the rest of the stuff a Barbarian can do, or do I have to somehow buy into those?
The multi-classing rules were quite vague on that/I must have missed it if it said otherwise.
My GM is actually interested in what my Warlocks bargain is. Standard "you have my soul upon my death" seems a little weak, and he rejected a rumpelstilstzkin deal for my first child. Anyone have any ideas for cool Faustian bargains? Pact is with a fiend (which one is also a good question) and I'm playing a Tiefling if that helps any.
Is there a quick reference sheet for rules or something similar? I'd like to give my players something like that but I can't find anything.
If you're running a premade adventure read the whole thing through once, then go back and thoroughly read just the bit you're going to run each session. Don't try to get it all into your head at once, it's more trouble than it's worth.
Make notes of every NPC, location, or other thing of interest you mention. Your players will bring it up, and you will forget.
Prepare a few extra simple encounters that you can pull out incase the players go off book.
I think this might be what you are looking for.
...That's exactly what a Faustian bargain is. There's not really a lot you can do to mix it up.
I have played a couple warlocks and tried to go for other pact types. The most recent one (which I posted about before) was a Feylock who's "patron" was a Winter Court Prince imprisoned within the warlock's body by his rivals. The entire relationship was basically a sitcom with ice lasers.
So everything on the table, but not the hit-die for taking a level in Barbarian? Would I just take a hit-die in Druid like I leveled in Druid or take the Barb's 1d12 for the level?
Unfortunately it is, however it's the only summary sheet I have.
I have this sheet that describes other things, but I'm not sure if it's what you need. The DM screen info would probably be up your alley.
I would say just take relevant info and make one yourself to be honest.
Make a PDF and post it here even, I'm sure others would even help.
- your name
- the memory of a deceased loved one
- your memories, period
- years of your life. You're immortal as long as your patron is happy, but he'll collect it all at once if you piss him off.
Propose to your dm that you actually are the first-born, and your father made the pact. You're bound to service and your father is a dickhead who sold his kid for wealth.
I like this. I'm gonna check with him and see if he'll allow this. Thank you.
>Propose to your dm that you actually are the first-born, and your father made the pact. You're bound to service and your father is a dickhead who sold his kid for wealth.
Been looking for a way to rationalize a warlock who is actively trying to kill / screw over his patron. I like this. Basically, the Patron thinks it's a game, and feeds the character power to taunt / tempt it with more power.
Please do, I feel like 5e does need a simple "If you know these you can play sheet" rather than a "We condensed the rules down by 70 pages sheet"
Also here's a spell list in a more appropriate format.
-You have to damn 100 other souls or your soul is forfeit. This could mean tricking people into signing over their souls to your patron or physically capturing them in some kind of phylactery or horcrux.
-You're the fiend's proxy on the Material Plane. You may be free to do whatever you want most of the time, but if they need an powerful artifact stolen, an important figure of good assassinated, a portal to hell opened or whatever other evil deed done, you better do it.
-You're getting access to your patron's infernal power with no strings attached. They might want to do them a small favor down the road, but that's probably not even going to happen
>phylactery or horcrux
The horcruxes were phylacteries. Rowling was fond of using traditional fantasy ideas with new names and twists. I thought it was quite clever; I didn't realize Voldy was a fairly standard Lich for a long time.
The fiend just legitimately thinks you're a cool guy.
The fiend has a crush on you.
The fiend wants to take over the world; you are but one of his many sleeper agents. You don't have to start killing people at random, but if you can set things up to be weak or unstable in the future, you have to.
The fiend holds the soul of your lover captive, and will only keep it safe from torture or destruction if you serve it.
You traded the soul of your lover for power, something that still haunts you to this day.
Your powers seem to have no tradeoff. However unbeknownst to you, there is in fact a fiend trapped inside a ring given to you by your uncle. As revenge for being imprisoned, the fiend corrodes the soul and body of whoever wears it, leading to hastened aging, madness, and assorted cancers and malignancies as time goes by. The finger you wear the ring on constantly feels strange and uneasy, as though you'd just seen the same finger cut off of someone else. However try as you might, you just can't bring yourself to remove it.
Mess kit, cooking set with a few decent knifes pans and pots, tent, sleeping bag, extra sets of clothes, a few bars of soap, smoked meat and sausages , a few bags of rice and beans, a bag of spice, salt, flint and steel, axe, 30 meters of rope, crowbar, Alchemists supplies, 10 Bottles of Alchemists fire, 10 Bottles of oil, 5 torches, 10 throwing knifes, 3 5 litre metallic water-bottles coated with ceramic inside, a shovel and and a hammer.
I was watching a video about 5e, and the guy mentioned Cleric's have the ability to cast Cure Wounds in place of any prepared spell. Where is this in the rulebook? Is the guy pulling it out of his ass?
Well, you'd still have the benefit of not having to prepare it, which would be nice. You only get level+STAT spells to prepare anyway.
That said, your domain spells are always prepared and don't count against that number. So Life clerics can cast it whenever.
I did.The first poster asked a question with a simple answer. the second poster railed down the guy in the fisrt posters mentioned as flat wrong, even though life cleric gets it as a domian spell. To me it sounded like second poster didn't read the book.
So, I'm gonna be DMing Out of the Abyss once my group finished up Horde of the Dragon Queen/Rise of Tiamat. Which will probably take awhile so that gives me plenty of time to plan ahead.
One of the things I decided was to make the 10 fellow prisoners from the Drow Camp available as potential PC-replacements, and so I re-statted all of them as PCs.
Anyone else as crazy as me? For the record...
>Buppido the Derro Psychopath
NE Rogue, Charlatan background, emphasis on stabbiness and stealthiness.
>Prince Derendil, the Insane Quaggoth
CG Ranger, Noble background. Set up for melee. Favored enemy elves and dwarves (i.e., drow and duergar), favored terrain Underdark.
>Eldeth Feldrun, the Lost Dwarf
LG Fighter, Soldier background. As bog-standard a dwarf as they come.
>Jimjar, the Svirfneblin Trickster
CN Rogue, Criminal background. More about wordplay and stealing stuff.
>Ront, the Orc Who Ran
CE Barbarian, Outlander background. Ironically the only character who speaks Common.
>Sarith Kzekarit, the Doomed Drow
LE Paladin, Noble background. Can heal himself and others and is useful as he knows drow tactics.
>Shuushar the Awakened
LN Monk, Hermit background. Good knowledge skills overwhelmingly the most perceptive. But he won't raise a fist against anyone, for any reason. His Hermit perk is that he knows the location of the Lost Tomb of Khaem and, therefore, Dawnbringer.
>Stool, the Myconid Hero
NG Druid, Folk Hero background. Stool is the only real spellcaster, is good at Underdark survival, and isn't insane, unlike Prince Derendil.
>Topsy & Turvy, Wererats In Disguise
True Neutral Rangers, Urchin background. Both have the same stats. Favored enemies are Undead and Oozes, and favored terrain is cities (ignoring that that's not technically a valid choice). Not good at Underdark survival, but very useful in cities.
If the party likes the idea then go for it.
Also, this is sorta some big spoilers. Not that most people don't already know this stuff by now, just saying you may want to spoiler bar stuff like this in the future.
I like to be prepared: Wooden jar filled with honey, blanket, bedroll, holly, mistletoe, cookpot, mess kit, grooming kit, component pouch, flint and steel, 4x sacks, 2x waterskins, 5x rations
Plus various bits and bobs in pouches and pockets (salt, a couple apples, knives, couple potions..the usual)
I don't spoiler tag things that came out more than a month ago. If I think it's going to be a really big deal then I just won't talk about the thing; but a D&D campaign doesn't qualify.
my dm just gaven they xp and they advanced on levels as it went. (they all needed a shitload of xp to get a level in a class, which would follow the monster with classes rules from the DMG).
Really, no player will play as Shuustar and stay in character.
Btw, some of those CANT be player characters without spoiling some of the fun and mystery.
Well then that is a good detail that could of been included earlier. Well the simple answer is only life domain can spontaneously cast cure wounds, but honestly what cleric is not going to prepare cure wounds if they cant spontaneously cast it?
I went back and watched the video, it seems that he is just confusing the ability to cast a prepared spell multiple times as a cleric ability centered around cure wounds. Don't think I'll be watching more videos from this guy.
I'm on the fence between making a wizard (conjuration/transmutation/illusion) and a warlock (fey/old one) for my first campaign in 5e. What do you all prefer in your arcane magic users?
I enjoy characters that have a lot of out of combat utility and in combat focus more on control than damage. I consider summons, battlefield control spells, and illusions the most fun way to contribute to combat. Crafting is another big one for me, but of course 5e's crafting rules are just as annoying as any other D&D crafting rules (80 days to make a single breastplate? Really?)
Either one are viable, but Wizard is better for out of combat by a significant margin. Tomelock can sort of compete though by being the only character that can learn all the rituals, but even then Wizard is better because of his access to more of the better non-combat spells.
If you are coming from 3.5/PF you have to keep in mind that Wizards can't solo battles any more because most of the powerful summons/control/illusions require your one allotment of concentration. Wizards are still swiss army knives, but they are only able to do so much at one time now.
>Btw, some of those CANT be player characters without spoiling some of the fun and mystery.
For the individual player, perhaps, but personally I'm kinda hoping that someone's character dies, they take Topsy or Buppido, and I tell them the truth about them, see how they handle it without the rest of the party knowing.
>80 days to make a single breastplate?
Well, multiple people working together can do it faster. Remember that Ye Old Medieval Smith wouldn't have been working alone, but would have had two or three apprentices helping with everything he did.
Using 5e's rules, it still takes a group of 4 appropriately proficient craftsmen 3 weeks of work to make one breastplate. That is also assuming it's the only item they're working on for those 3 weeks.
That just doesn't seem right to me..I really wish they had a complexity rating for crafting items rather than "what it costs on the market determines how long it takes to craft". Which leads to the usual issues people bring up about crafting poisons and yadda yadda..
I get that they do it for balance reasons since you could reasonably be allowed to make a PC shop and sell things for profit, but it really stretches things when it takes 3 days for a lone smith to make a longsword and 3 weeks for a team of smiths to make one piece of armor.
>"free shit via invocations"
May as well say you get free shit via schools.
What invocations are good anyway? The ones that buff EB are basically tax, as well as the Tome/Blade ones. You can take darkness/devils sight, and the one that gives you training in a bunch of skills, but what else?
Not a 5th edition request, but this is the D&D general.
Does anyone have a PDF of Dungeon #151, the first Dungeon Wizards put out after Paizo lost it and just before 4th came out? It was free, but it's no longer on the Wizards site. I need the Nicholas Logue adventure, Hell's Heart, the third in a trilogy he wrote.
I would appreciate it or any clues to how I can get a copy. Thank you!
Undying light. It's an Unearthed Arcana archetype: your patron is the raw stuff of the positive plane.
Fucked-up fluff and completely broken damage stacking with dragon sorc. Favorite of munchkins and snowflakes everywhere.
What's your point? Warlocks don't even need a spell to do it, much less one that requires you to wave your hands around for 10 minutes.
> only if it's a ritual
Don't lie; you didn't prepare this shit.
...Hence why you're doing it as a ritual, and therefore taking 10 times the casting time.
If you wanted to correct me, you'd have pointed out that the Ritual casting time for complang is 1 minute, not 10.
It is not very faustian but I usually roll with " the patron wants you to do something", often without explaining why, bonus points if the act seems a bit weird but harmless. To make an exhample,the Undying patron of one of my players' warlock asks her to tear out the eyes of the enemies she or her party fells. Now of course if sounds shady as fuck so the warlock is trying to keep it a secret from the others- save the ranger who is, in fact, spooked as fuck- but after all hey, it is just a silly thing like putting eyes on the ground, on the outside of any building, at night, after their former owners are dead, and in exchange I get to fire laser beams and shit. Sounds better than selling my son or my soul or shit, plus the patron seems like a cool and totally not demanding guy. Hell of a bargain right?
Except not. Except this is going to fuck her, and possibly a lot of people too, in the ass. I mean it is a shady contract from below, don't tell me you didn't figure.
You only get a few invocations until you get into the lvl 10 area. even then there are better invocations out there to grab than some script breaker eyes. Like the one that lets you cast polymorph or the one that lets you push people away each time you hit them with an eldrich blast.
I like that one too. Closest thing to at will flying a warlock can get unless you are a winged tiefling.
Because warlocks can cast more than 2 spells a rest before lvl 11. Also a good polymorph can change the course of a battle pretty quick. A giant ape or T-rex will wreck shit against another CR 7 creature. Besides you can't learn polymorph as any character before 7 anyways.
Dragon sorcerers get wings at 14th.
Druids can turn into flying beasts by 8th, and at that point it might as well be at-will because they can retain a single wild shape for 4 hours.
I have a player that is playing a warlock and she has flat out refused to ever tell anyone in the game her name. I'm going to ask her to make it because her patron will remove her powers if she ever tries to tell it to anyone. How does that sound?
In truth, I think she's just not telling anyone because "lol xd random" but I've really needed an excuse
I don't understand why the patron would care unless it were a matter of exclusivity.
I suggest something more like the patron having taken her name: she doesn't refuse to give it because she's being goofy spooky, she legitimately can't remember.
Think spirited away.
If you're starting a game and one of your players evidently has spent 5-10 times longer thinking up their character, writing backstory and tweaking their sheet than everyone else at the table do you take this as a good or a bad thing?
It can go either way. They can either be a munchkin who has managed to squeeze as much power out of their stats as possible, or they could help everyone else get more invested in the game by leading by example. They could also just be disappointed that nobody else at the table cares about RP or character building so..
Dragon and storm sorcerer get at will flying. So do tempest clerics.
they get flying too, being a bird race and such.
Thats a good point. I never really though of a druid turning into a bird. I'm use to my party's druid who turns into spiders and apes all the time.
Then I would go with what >>44631372 said. A great old one might have just caused her to lose very important personal information about herself as it drives her crazy. You should definitely talk to her about it if it's causing party issues. It can be used as a good basis for character development.
How would you handle an encounter with a 50+ foot tall humanoid?
Athletics checks to climb? Attacks while holding onto it at disadvantage? Targeting specific limbs / body parts?
Help me plan for this.
Need help coming up with a minor buff to a magical item my player's 4th level barbarian has. Currently it's a +1 maul. I'd like it to give him something extra while he's raging, the fluff being the weapon itself is raging alongside him.
All of the above, a la Shadow of the Colossus.
Strength (Athletics) to climb onto the beast and get at its weak bits, Strength checks to grab on (or Dex checks to maintain footing if the creature has a particularly wide stretch of flat area on its body). The creature can shake using its reaction/as a bonus action to try and force the party off of it, they take falling damage as appropriate and land nearby in a logical space if they fail.
Something that massive would probably turn anything it gets its hands on into slurry, so maybe its attacks are save or die if you are in range of its melee attacks? If they're smart they would go for ranged attacks and try to cripple it before moving anywhere close to it (AoT style).
All of these things are good ideas
Remember that climbing only triggers athletics checks under difficult circumstances. Having them make the check each time they move might be a little much, but giving the giant an action that allows it to attempt to shake off all characters climbing it might be the ticket: falling damage ahoy.
It's up to you whether it should be able to attack enemies currently climbing it directly, but I don't see why it shouldn't.
Maybe have the weapon cause some sort of save or suck effect on successful attacks while raging? Like dazed or knocked prone.
Or the weapon shouts obscenities at hostile creatures and causes them to be effectively taunted by the barbarian.
Probably depends on the story you want to be part of. The 'warlock tries to redeem himself and break away' is sort of a classic story element.
Anon seems to be going to bait and switch route. Also rather classic.
I'm playing a
Warlock of Baphomet in an OotA campaign, and I know eventually we will have to fight him. Thats why my warlock will ultimately turn on his patron in order to become more powerful and absorb his soul, so that he will become his own patron in the end of things. Assuming he lives that is. OotA can be brutal.
Because plot hooks and character development. You shouldn't force this thing on a player, but since players want to do the "I eventually crush the darkness inside" thing.
One of my players wanted to eventually go toe-to-toe with her devil patron. We fluffed her Mystic Arcana as her slowly stealing greater secrets from him.
Because (being the guy who wrote >>44630921 ) I know fully well that this is the kind of plot his particular player appreciates. Knowing your player is half the battle, so to say, and warlocks is the class that require the player and the gm to work together the most
Well seems like you have the 'not thinking at all' down all right seeing as your first thought was "guess I would have to play commoner if I was in that situation". Want to add challenge to the ones listed off the top of my head? Obviously persuading a new patron to take you on may have its difficulties and hoops they make you jump through first. Have to go searching for the knowledge of how to use new abilities as you level now you have no patron to hand them to you. If you are stealing power then he has a reason to specially target you.
Currently carrying the basic adventurer's kit.
My squire is carrying everything else humanly possible.
I treat him like a caddy and request for specific javelins.
"Bring me the 7 Iron. Oh wait, actually it's a werewolf. Better make it the 3 Silver."
>Been wanting to play a survivalist for upcoming campaign in Underdark
>Dislike the 5e Ranger
>Decided to settle on Battlemaster with Survival skill
>UA comes out
>Scout is exactly what I want in a survivalist
... You're actually right, damn.
So to really answer >>44632178: unless your DM allows magic item creation rules, you can't.
>played bear barbarian
>actually managed to die because despite there being 3 other martials in the party, they're all dex-based (dex melee EK, dex paladin, ranger)
>prefer martials to casters
>I was the only one who didn't have a negative strength modifier
>DM doesn't want me to roll another barbarian or play the same class as someone else
>only option is a rogue or monk
The most viable option seemed to be normal human monk, while still remaining somehow viable.
But i'm dealing with a dex fighter who only uses a shortshort, and fucking dex paladin, and a ranger. I don't even think the fighter knows about extra attacks or the existence of battlemaster, plus he doesn't even have both arms, so no shield either. He just spams chill touch or his shitty sword, and a fucking dex paladin who can't even use heavy armor, and then a ranger.
The wizard and I would have wiped the encounter before they managed to do more than 10 damage between the three of them. We're at level 10 this it's pathetic.
what is your party comp? unless you have an 8 man party there should be more options than just rogue and monk left. If worst come to worst though you could go mountain dwarf swashbuckler rogue who uses a rapier but uses str to attack instead of dex. Pick up medium armor and a shield too for solid ac.
What do you all use for creating maps for your campaigns? I've got some ideas for the warren of a kobold tribe that is protecting a macguffin owned by a local dragon. I follow the Tucker school of thought when it comes to kobolds, so I want to make sure I can lay out all the side tunnels and secret passages clearly.
Are you sure it was number 151? Becuase I have a bunch of them for 3rd edition, including the last one, and that's number 359. Or when they went digital did they start re-numbering them?
>High Elf Wizard
>Non-Variant Human Ranger
>Dead Goliath Bear Barbarian
>Air Genasi Storm Sorc
My real options are Moon Druid, Strength Monk, or a Strength Swashbuckler, but as I said I prefer playing a martial.
Is there any reason you NEED Strength, other than covering everyone else's asses because they cannot into party composition?
Play what you want, dude. You're not obliged to make up for your party's failings. If your party simply can't survive, play the thing that will let you play what you want for the longest time possible.
Neat comp, but there is no cleric, so you could easily go a mountain dwarf war cleric. They are surprisingly good at martial combat, and I've even been debating on having my goliath fighter dip into war cleric. My group lacks a healer of any sort.
Sorta. If we're going by "the rules are the rules except for exceptions to the rules", the description for the Herbalism kit specifically says you can craft potions of healing if you are proficient with it. Presumably, it appears on the equipment list in the PHB for this reason.
Quick question anons,
does the Archery bonus (+2 to hit) stack with Close Quarters Shooter (+1 to hit) for bow attacks?
Was trying to make a fighter/ranger hybrid and being able to pick 2 fighting styles, it seemed like a no-brainer.
Was going to eventually get to Battle Master to apply all sorts of funky on-hits with the bow.
What's your guys' stances on co-DM'ing?
Our group totals four people atm, and the DM want's to be a PC too. We've finished a short, one session module, with her in command, and now she wants to be a player. I've volunteered to run the next session as a DM and with my PC character tagging along as a DMPC for the time being, as I didn't really like the idea of each of our PCs running off to do other things when the DM seat changes. We've agreed to both write material and when our said material runs up, we switch places.
Is there any advice we could use to keep it running this system smoothly?
Actually, the herbalism kit says that proficiency in the kit is *required* to make potions of healing, not that the kit allows you craft them.
It's what I assumed at first too, until I read it closely and realized the wording's repercussions (due to posts in this thread)4.
There's a new errata in the DMG that says bonuses from the same named game element no longer stack. Not applicable to this situation, but something to keep in mind in the case of, say, multiple paladins with Aura of Protection.
Thanks anon! Haha, time to operate!
Dunno if this helps, but me and my husband co-DM.
I run DeathWatch, he runs Rogue Trader. Both set in the same universe and we make it work, somehow inkling in intertwining adventures that always brings the two groups together since there's 6 of us.
Really, at the end of the line it boils down to communicating effectively with your co-dm, so that you two don't step on each others toes, get stories mixed up and whatnot in your world. Try to have as much of a cohesive storyline as possible.
before you go >women we're gay and love to touch dicks
I'll take note of that, thanks. We've kind of agreed to run the same campaign together. I'll write a bit, and DM it the next session, then she'll write the next bit, and so on.
And I don't care for dick touching as long as it ain't mine being touched, lol.
Which class is better at damage and tanking, Barbarian or Fighter? I see that the Barbarian can be very resilient but it does not seem to have any means to actually force enemies away from allies and focus on them. Fighter seems to be a bit more versatile with Battle Master or Eldritch Knight, but i'm not sure the numbers line up as simply as the Barbarian's.
What am I missing here??
Let me narrow it down a bit then; which one is better for a module(s), where we aren't expected to hit level cap, and probably won't go higher than 10-15 tops? Are they fairly equal in damage until some point - I assume when Fighters start making 3+ attacks a round?
Hello 5eg, I come for advice on the more creative side. I'm in the middle of a year long campaign and while we follow combat rules to the point, we have a more flexible approach to the planes and how magical shenanigans work.
My character wants to be untraceable. This means changing his name so demons won't damage him, changing his blood so no one can do voodoo shit on him, that kind of stuff.
Not only in 5e, but in the fantasy context in general, to what extremes can one go to effectively hide from everyone and everything?
Fighter is better at avoiding damage, bearbarian is better at soaking up damage. I have played both in early level modules and so far they can both pump out similar damage (Barbarian is better at using GWM at ealy levels with that auto advantage though) if you build them the same ways but fighter ultimately tanks better solely because once you break AC 18 you are hard as hell to land a blow on.
My group is full of murder hobos who hate RP. For a while now I have been trying to initiate rp with them in character but they just laugh and ignore me. I fully got a glimpse of this today
>Get into this sacred elven forest
>I say in character ''My, these lights leave one speechless, wouldn't you agree?''
>''We are about to complete a quest and get a shit ton of gp anon, there will be time for RP later''
There is never time for RP...
>actually force enemies away from allies and focus on them
Sentinel+Polearm Master+Tunnel Fighter Fighting Style covers a large number of situations.
You'll probably need to at least dip Fighter for that, though.
My DM has ruled that earth elementals can carry objects during their earthglide movement provided the object is something of the earth like metal, stone, gems, etc.
I've decided to use this power to summon hordes of tiny earth elementals that pop up bear traps and explosive rune stone landmines on the battlefield. Am I That Guy?
But males are just superior on every level.. Pic semi-related.
>Colossal Earth Elemental erupts from the ground
>It opens up and disgorges thousands of golems trojan-horse style
>party is swarmed and dies from being punched in the dick by thousands of tiny golems.
I can get behind this.
I want to introduce the "Mark of Cain" element to my campaign in the hopes that one of my players would be brave enough to take the curse upon himself or hell, by accident.
Eitherway, what would be a good way to implement this?
Anybody that slays the marked character has the mark brand to their skin. He will be hunted down by the Erinyes for the rest of his life.
At that point nobody will want to hang around him, for fear of being torn apart by pissed off valkyries of vengeance.
>Anybody that slays the marked character has the mark brand to their skin. He will be hunted down by the Erinyes for the rest of his life.
>At that point nobody will want to hang around him, for fear of being torn apart by pissed off valkyries of vengeance.
Should the marked character be literally Cain himself?
How would the PC's go about and find him and/or Kill him.. he's kind of immortal. I need a hook here.
No, he's making shit up because he can't find a DM for whatever he was playing before.
I wouldn't say 5e is without flaws, but I've got better things to do than think my best times are behind me.
I did just leave an awful-ass group, though.
>Level caps? Does that really come up?
If you play more than once a month like a real gamer, yeah it does. Some of us actually play for 5 to 6 hours instead of spending half of it discussing flannel and microbrews.
Level cap is fucking annoying and shit and was produced because WotC created a crappy framework that falls apart outside of the carefully constructed box it was made for.
Not that I don't like proficiency system. I do. If I could port anything to pathfinder, it would be the proficiency system.
They could have let the system run free if there was an actual formula for proficiency but honestly I cannot f igure out what the fuck it is.
>If you play more than once a month like a real gamer, yeah it does. Some of us actually play for 5 to 6 hours instead of spending half of it discussing flannel and microbrews.
Here comes the pasta...
afterthought : sevenfold vengeance could be literally 7 Erinyes. They'll visit over the next 7 nights, each time the character tries to sleep, rest, or thinks he's safe.
I mean, call the mark whatever you want. It doesn't have to be called that, nor does the NPC.
"Mark of the Furies" "Seal of Vengeance" whatever you want to call it.
Marked character could be some kinda missionary doing his thing in that borderline-hatespeech-antagonistic way (fully within rights, but grating to hear) and the party may be offered a hit to "deal" with this character by a church that doesn't like him.
This will set up a justification for a) why he's protected, b) why he would be killed c) he'll most likely die and thus trigger the seal.
I can't do all your GM work for ya mang, but give that a whirl!
You should look more closely at how its the only metric that 'scales' well, while shit like damage is still all over the place. Maybe not as bad as 3e and PF, but its still egregious. Especially on monster entries where there seems to be no rhyme or reason for how much a monster of a given XP value and CR should do on average.
>No, he's making shit up because he can't find a DM for whatever he was playing before.
What the fuck are you even talking about?
What pasta? What I'm saying is, 5e's been out over a year now. You play once a week for 6 hours. That's 52 sessions adding up to about 150 encounters. That's more than enough to get to level 20.
WotC just figured they'd make their money, and by the time players started banging their head on the level cap, they'd already have the cash.
Or maybe they'll release an epic level handbook. That would suck.
Thank ye, anon.
So if I wanted to TANK STRONK, and maybe push or grapple a bit, would a Minotaur Barbarian or Fighter be acceptable? Human variant is off the table and I didn't want to play a Dwarf or Goliath, so I'm trying to pick between them or Half-Orcs.
>''My character swings around a giant comical hammer like Harley Quinn''
There are optional rules for obtaining epic boons for exp earned past the level cap... but I think you'll find that the vast, vast majority of games do not last until level 20.
If you've really run into level cap issues you've got to be, like, a fraction of a % in that regard.
I fail to see what that actually has to do with proficiency.
It scales well because it's the same for every fuckin class. And yes, I do think that's a good thing.
I don't really care about how damage is "all over the place", that's a problem solved by actually looking at how AD&D did things. This would have happened if anyone on the design team had ever played AD&D or understood its mechanics.
> Especially on monster entries where there seems to be no rhyme or reason for how much a monster of a given XP value and CR should do on average.
CR = XP value for one thing (or at least it's supposed to). And for another thing, not every monster has to do the exact same freaking damage.
Also, I'm not shitting on proficiency. I'm just saying it should be able to be extrapolated. From right here it looks annoying as fuck to figure out your proficiency at, say, 25th level.
>There are optional rules for obtaining epic boons for exp earned past the level cap...
Yeah I've seen those. Shit-tier pre-gen adventure quest crap and artifacts and shit. The level cap is still 20.
> ... but I think you'll find that the vast, vast majority of games do not last until level 20.
That's the product of the D&D 5e fanbase. Many games in earlier editions lasted to level 20 with normal XP gain. Some of us actually care about our campaigns and stick with them for more than 6 months.
> If you've really run into level cap issues you've got to be, like, a fraction of a % in that regard.
Show me some fucking data on that and then I'll believe you. And not one of Mearls' fucking polls from the WotC website, because the people who take those polls are the same kind of wankers who get bored after level 6.
Maybe after a year or so it does or Assuming you're playing a high challenge campaign. I play one a week with my group and we started in September and only hit 5th lvl last session. The level cap is perfectly fine as it is, as is 5e in general.
Yeah new content will be awesome to have but if you're creative then there are already a lot of options available as is.
No, I'm just not naive enough to think it's anything but smart business strategy.
>It can vary within a given metric, but the 5e Monster Manual is loaded with one-shot machines hitting as hard or harder than shit higher than its CR.
Yeah.... and they should have toned down the damage. But that doesn't make proficiency a bad mechanic. Or a good mechanic. I'm not entirely sure what your point is. That WotC has solved a small issue in their game, so we should accept it at face value and not want it to be improved?
>'play a grappler tank!'
>can't grapple anything Huge without DM fiat
>multiclassing absolutely required
>falls apart as soon as it can't do its gimmick
Why do people like grapplers, again? I guess it 'works' better than older editions..
>I play one a week with my group and we started in September and only hit 5th lvl last session.
That is because your play sessions are slow and unproductive.
> The level cap is perfectly fine as it is, as is 5e in general.
> Yeah new content will be awesome to have but if you're creative then there are already a lot of options available as is.
That is true of literally every game. Also, some of us like professionally created content (at least such as it is with WotC).
No, I don't like an entire book dedicated to something we deserved to have in the first place.
I'm.. not arguing against proficiency? It is one of the better things in this edition. My issue was with how they implemented a functional scaling baseline for attack rolls, but failed to follow up on the damage side of the equation. When, after Save or Suck/Dies effects, damage was the second biggest issue with WotC's editions of D&D - especially so in the one everyone still loves
for some unfathomable reason, 3e/PF.
Minotaur sounds good in this case. If you're not using the Polearm-focused cominbation described above, you probably want to go primarily Barbarian.
Pushing doesn't really keep in line with traditional tanking, which tends to revolve around keeping enemies close and focused on you. If you do want to shove shit around, Minotaur or the Shield Master feat would be what you want to go for.
Grappling, on the other hand, does provide stickiness. In this case, consider dipping Rogue or Bard for Expertise in Athletics. In this case, Minotaur allows you to go unarmed while still having a d10 damage die, thus allowing you to grapple two enemies at once. You do have to consider what size the enemies you're likely to be facing are, though. This could arguably be remedied by using a mount or being a Druid.
You kept going. Or threw in the towel like a pussy,
>Not according to any survey result I've seen. What is your source on this? Your ass?
Years of gaming experience. Also, if even a small amount of players get past level 20, those players deserve support. Not a smack on the face from D&D, which is now a system centered around one-shots.
Why on earth do you not consider maptool or roll20 good enough for 5e? I've DMed just about every system under the sun and I've never once needed anything more than a simple gridded whiteboard and voip software.
It's funny. Although it's only funny for like 2 sessions. I feel like everyone reads that copypasta story where the dude grapples dragon wings mid-air and kills it and goes "AW DUDE I WANNA DO THAT!"
No alternative to converting your friends is as good. I just signed up on a play by post forum, wish me luck.
4e just went up to 30 straight up, once you got there you ascended to godhood or what the fuck ever.
3.5 had epic levels, you could just keep leveling forever with special options available once you hit 21. It wasn't very good, broken as shit with the epic spellcasting rules being some of the most hilariously thoughtless bullshit produced for 3.5
Never played enough AD&D to get to level 20 and I was too young to bother reading rulebooks back then. I'm pretty sure you could continue progressing in some manner though, if not then a lot of stories I've heard don't make much sense.
I'm not being hostile. I'm just stating the truth. I don't even think 5e is a bad system. In fact I think it fixes a lot of the main problems with 3.5e and 4e. But it also introduces plenty more through pointless limitations and idiotic set up.
>Are you the same "read the fucking book" guy from all this past week?
Then enlighten me. Please actually explain why I am wrong, then say what the right thing is, instead of just saying "lol read the book" dismissively so that you can ignore my point.
The only editions of D&D without level caps are OD&D and 3.X.
Holmes Basic stops at 3, B/X stops at 14, BECMI & RC stop at 61, AD&D 1E stops at 100, AD&D 2E stops at 30 (any further character advancement goes towards divine ascension), and 4e stops at 30 I believe.
>Yeah I've seen those. Shit-tier pre-gen adventure quest crap and artifacts and shit. The level cap is still 20.
I don't think you've actually looked at them though, because that's not what I was referring to. There's a specific section called "epic boons", which as stated, can be awarded to players for every 30,000 XP after 20th level. They are essentially very strong "feats" or class features.
It doesn't have anything to do with quests and artifacts and shit as you put it. It's not much honestly but it is something for the 0.00001% that makes it past level 20.
It just sucks that the only way to grapple well is to either be a spellcaster, or have a spellcaster in the party willing to cast enlarge person on you.
I really don't like spellcasting in 5e, and would rather avoid it whenever I can
I wasn't the guy you were arguing with, fyi. I only call you that because you use that tagline a lot. You're always so hostile, friend. Why do you keep coming back here just to get mad?
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were in my group. Who were you playing again?
My group is plenty productive. In our sessions, your group probably just runs through the gauntlet every week.
>My issue was with how they implemented a functional scaling baseline for attack rolls,
Except, 3.5 had this as well. So did 4e. The 3.5 one broke down after 20th level so it needed a fix, but other than that, proficiency is nothing special.
Actually I'm just kidding, it IS special. Let's see if you can guess what that special thing is.
Never mind I'll tell you. it's because there was no longer a fucking separate mechanic for saves and attacks. And skills, I guess. It saved a lot of time.
The discrepancy in to-hit ability in 3.5 wasn't nearly as much a problem as some people make it out to be. In fact I consider the equality of to-hit in 5e to be a bit of a downside, but that's just me. It's a perfectly fair trade for the elegance of proficiency.
The elf blinked wearily in the dimming light; the campfire had been largely doused to keep unwanted attention at bay. Not that it mattered terribly much in the Underdark; even the slightest warm glow was a stark contrast to the cold, black abyss that surrounded the party's campsite.
She was trying very hard not to nod off: it had been a very long day, and between the escape and the evading of the Duergar guards, the party as a whole was exhausted. Still, the humans needed the sleep more than she, and the watch would rotate in but another hou-
She was sure of the sound of one of the arrows from her cordon whipping through the air toward an unseen trespasser. There was a scream of pain, and then a bitter, growled oath. There could be no doubt of what approached:
>Some of us actually play for 5 to 6 hours instead of spending half of it discussing flannel and microbrews
Troglodytes. She knocked an arrow and moved to wake her companions...
>I'm pretty sure you could continue progressing in some manner though,
Yes and no. There are rules for levels 21-100 in H4 The Throne of Bloodstone for 1e, and rules for 21-30-divinity in DM's Option: High-Level Campaigns for 2e.
You can level up forever by extrapolating the tables, but there is no official support for anything past 100/30Div
Barbarian grapplers can grapple basically anything, and with larger creatures the main point of grappling (locking a creature's movement down) is moot because they start getting reach and hitting like a truck.
I have a massive torrent that has all of the print copies all the way back to #1, but I have none of the digital ones. I just need the one adventure, Hell's Heart, since it's part of the trilogy I'm running.
Worst part is, supposedly, the issue was free when D&D Insider first started but I can't find it anywhere.
1) B/X is total shit, it's effectively a wargame. I have read it and it's less desirable than 4e.
2) Holmes Basic is also garbage.
3) No one is going to make it to 61 or 100, the highest I've heard is 90. 20 on the other hand is easily reachable.
4) level 30 is also fine because divine ascension.
>I don't think you've actually looked at them though, because that's not what I was referring to. There's a specific section called "epic boons", which as stated, can be awarded to players for every 30,000 XP after 20th level. They are essentially very strong "feats" or class features.
Cool. It's still not leveling up.
> It doesn't have anything to do with quests and artifacts and shit as you put it. It's not much honestly but it is something for the 0.00001% that makes it past level 20.
If only 0.00001% (fucking bullshit, by the way) make it to that level, why not just continue the leveling system? It'd be a lot less effort than ripping off E6's way of doing things.
>adding post-20 class features and such is less effort than "get a feat, stat increase, or epic boon at regular XP intervals after 20"
>My group is plenty productive.
Storywise, perhaps. But in terms of levels you are very slow compared to the average group, unless you are halving XP. Which is fine, by the way. But it is not the expected way of doing things and thus not a fair way to judge overall.
> In our sessions, your group probably just runs through the gauntlet every week.
Are you saying our game is straight combat? It isn't. We just actually happen to have combat.
If you want to run FATE using the D&D 5e rules that is fine, but don't complain when you aren't leveling up as fast, or get pissy because someone actually made it to those levels and doesn't want the game to suddenly cut off his options.
I think that not enough people play to 20th level that it's not worth the effort to make the rules for it. Not enough folks would buy it.
WotC is still a business, after all.
If you play to level 20, that's great. The real meat of 5e is in levels 5-10 or so. Just look at the written adventures, feature given, and XP system. I think after 14th level you get a level every couple thousand XP.
Playing that high wasn't the main concern of this system, I would argue.
I paid forty dollars for my 5e PHB, I do fucking deserve a good game system.
You are just making me more certain that what I said is true.
>Have you not heard of epic boons?
I have. They're pretty shitty. They also are not a leveling system.
>When you hit max level, you toss the character and start a new one. Is this so fucking hard to comprehend?
No, I don't want to toss my character, cunt. Stop thinking your way of playing is the only way. The last two editions seemed to understand that people would stick with a campaign past 20th level. It's only this one that wants to suddenly change the rules on us.
I might do something like Barbarian 5/Fighter X, or straight Fighter, and grab Tunnel Fighter style and Sentinel ASAP. I've done Polearm Master builds with a Paladin, but that was for damage purposes. I've never used it on a 'tank' before.
Is it better to get Polearm Master or Sentinel first when starting a Tunnel Fighting combo?
>I think that not enough people play to 20th level that it's not worth the effort to make the rules for it. Not enough folks would buy it.
Yeah no shit. I wouldn't buy those rules anyway. No way am I paying more for shit I should have had in my hand in the first place.
That's why it should have been IN THE PHB. Yes I understand they cannot come up with class features forever. But there was nothing wrong with letting me continue to level up my proficiency. Diminishing returns? Fine. I don't care. I want to be able to have a level 21 characater and the fact that I can't means that this system is seriously lacking in a major way.
> The real meat of 5e is in levels 5-10 or so.
So it's badly balanced to focus on the middle levels.
> Just look at the written adventures, feature given, and XP system. I think after 14th level you get a level every couple thousand XP.
> Playing that high wasn't the main concern of this system, I would argue.
Clearly. Just because that wasn't it's goal, however, does not mean it is immune to criticism from fucking that up. If it said being an actual RPG wasn't it's "main concern" that still wouldn't excuse it.
>Do you comprehend just how powerful characters are at level 20?
Can you stop trying to project some convenient ignorance on me? I am very very aware of how powerful a level 20 character is in 5e. I have seen their stats, I have seen what they can do. Now are you going to actually respond to my points with something other than irrelevant one liners?
>You've got one, and your idea of what it "should have" at high levels is shit.
I did get one, and it contained gaping holes in its rules that a 5 year old could have patched up.
Since you seem to be providing no reason why "boons" are so fucking superior, you don't have much ground to stand on yourself.
Thank you both so much!
Logue is one of my favorite writers and I absolutely love his adventures Chimes at Midnight and the sequel Quoth the Raven I was going to run my players through. I just learned today that there was a third entry to make it a trilogy
You are both good people. May all your hits be crits!
I know you are just baiting this thread at this point but I'll be damned if I don't drive this point home. He have plenty of combat. We fought an umber hulk, a rock octopus, a group of hooked horrors, and a gnoll pack last session alone in the 5 hours we played. It's normal experience, only AL legal rules. The game runs perfectly fine. We level up at a reasonable rate, I've never once had a problem with the level cap, and there are options for lvl 20 characters called epic boons. They are really good. If you don't like that you can go wait in the corner for wotc to release new content for epic levels or you can go back to pathfinder.
Only reason 3.5/PF is better is because the volume of material, familiarity with said material (and tons of house rules/acknowledgement its a busted system) and the large player audience to draw from if you are game hunting.
I feel sorry for the 4e bastards who still want to find games these days.
>Too fucking bad, wanker. It's time for them to retire.
No, it isn't. D&D 5e LITERALLY breaks down at 20th level. As opposed to 3.5 which at least had options. Semi-shitty options, maybe. OP options maybe. But hell at least they were fun.
Shit like Nailed to the Sky and that stupid-ass vengeful gaze of god spell, were great. Broken but great.
4e let you become a deity if you made it to level 30.
What does 5e have? Nothing. You cannot make it past level 20. That is lower than every edition you (or some other anon) presented above, EXCEPT for B/X and Holmes, both of which are incredibly underdeveloped systems that have racial limits on advancement. So I'm not going to take them seriously.
You people are yet to present a compelling argument for why levels should cap at 20 besides "lol it's the way it is wanker I'm right you're wrong the book says so get rekt faggot" which is not a legitimate argument, it's just a teenage temper tantrum because a flaw has been exposed in a popular RPG system.
>All this pretty art
>What looks to be pretty good writing at a glance
Shiiiiiiet, and I've completely ignored Dungeon.
Anyone know a place where you can download all of it? Or would the one that said he had it all possibly be willing to make a Mega?
I'm not baiting idiot. If you have actually been playing for four encounters per session on average and one session a week for a year, you should be around level 20 by now.
TLDR Your DM is doing XP wrong. Or you have a HUGE ass group. One of the two.
>Or OD&D if you like nostalgia and simplicity.
> shitloads of tables
> attack matrixes
> obtusely written rules
Yeah I'm starting to understand why you think 5e's level caps are a good rule.... compared to OD&D it's fucking stellar game design.
Nigga fuckin what? Some of the best games of Dungeons and Dragons I've ever played have been in B/X and BECMI.
Get a DM that can run a good classic campaign. Some of the class rules are fucked, like how the rogue is lacking, and early level wizards and clerics are screwed, but that's also easily fixable.
You're mileage varies like the rest of us. Don't call it shit because you don't have someone that can DM an old-school campaign.
Depends on what you plan to do and such. Tbh EK can be better if used right but BM can work effectively too and dish out more damage. Also, EK starts with much less resources than BM but it evens out mid lvl and EK becomes better later lvl in terms of resources.
>Afraid of something new?
Nope. And if I want something new, I can always play another character. But that doesn't mean I have to chuck the old one just because Mearls and his crew are lazy ass bastards. Or just retarded, I cannot figure out which, since they wrote a ton of shitty options just to keep from having the game go to level 21.
There is no inherent issue with infinite leveling. In fact with some creative design they could have made it a soft cap not a hard one. But when your game is pretty much guaranteed to be a sell-out blockbuster anyway, why put in that kind of effort. I will tell you that 99% of RPG designers out there would not be able to get away with this kind of crap. D&D is being ruined by its own popularity and I am not talking about the playerbase.
>ITT: One man gets exceptionally butthurt that he has to change characters occasionally
So your characters have accomplished literally nothing in all of their 20 levels that has given them a reason to retire from adventuring? Sounds like your GM is kind of shit.
Sentinel. You could actually just go with Sentinel and Tunnel Fighter to OA anything that tries to leave your reach, and you wouldn't need a polearm build. Hell, you could still grapple, because using your horns means that your hands are free.
The purpose of Polearm Master is to work with Tunnel Fighter such that, once per round, anything that moves around you at all eats an attack. This does take your reaction, so you have to pick and choose when you do this.
Note that there is some debate on how reach weapons work with OA, because by RAW, you don't actually gain the additional 5 feet of reach unless you're attacking with the weapon. Your DM may rule anything from enemies entering and exiting a 5 foot radius provoking an OA from your polearm, to enemies entering and exiting a 10 foot radius provoking an OA from your polearm, to enemies entering and exiting a 10 foot radius provoking an OA from your polearm AND enemies exiting a 5 foot radius provoking an OA from your horns (because your horns and polearm have different reaches, but they both constitute YOUR reach).
Talk to him about this before deciding exactly how you want to build.
Nah, this is clearly Virt-esque trolling. You can tell with the "refute my point" and "you can't even put forward and argument" and specifically calling out Mearls. The only thing missing is saying "D&D NEXT," but that's too big of an identifier so he's dropped it.
>Nigga fuckin what? Some of the best games of Dungeons and Dragons I've ever played have been in B/X and BECMI.
So you had a good DM. Means nothing about the system.
> You're mileage varies like the rest of us. Don't call it shit because you don't have someone that can DM an old-school campaign.
I do. But we wouldn't use a system that literally has no mileage because it caps the mileage at level 3 or 14 or whatever.
Not to mention most OD&D characters don't survive that long, so it doesn't matter. But still.
>So your characters have accomplished literally nothing in all of their 20 levels that has given them a reason to retire from adventuring? Sounds like your GM is kind of shit.
You're such a goddamn idiot. Stop trying to evade with "lol your DM is shit because if you don't want to retire by level 20 your DM is shit because reasons"
We got a stronghold, extraplanar allies, and tons of gold. Does that mean we should HAVE to retire? No it does not. Quit making up stupid shit, some of us like playing into epic levels, and 5e does not support that in any acceptable way.
Why can't you admit it's a flaw if you (apparently) don't play to epic levels anyway?
OK, so if you had the option to get levels beyond 20th, what would you spend them doing? I can't think of any reasonable threats for characters over level 20 without them all dealing with gods.
>Fought a Demon-God today
>Fought a Dragon-God today
>Fought a Time-God tomorrow
>Fought against the God-of-you-have-been-resurrected-too-often today
>Fought the One and the God Above All today
Like really, the only reasonable adventures are deicide focused. You can't really say there were a shitton of high level adventurers in your campaign before the characters started leveling because then you have to ask yourself shit like "why didn't Elminster stop all of these world ending threats before we got to them"
There isn't any point in going beyond 20 because there isn't anything to do. Reroll and start up some fresh questline.
Not for a year you dummy, since September, so like 4 1/2 months. And on average we do in fact have 3 or 4 encounters, except for the first session, which was character introduction and prison break. Also our group is a 7 man group.
Ancient Dragons and the Tarrasque have CRs above 20. But yes, level 20 characters are literally the pinnacle of what mortals can achieve, and threats they deal with will naturally tend to be immortal in nature.
>I can't think of any reasonable threats for characters over level 20 without them all dealing with gods.
That's because the idiots who designed the game have been sliding the gods further down the power scale with each edition. For fucks sake, you were meant to slay Orcus in 4e. A fucking cornerstone of the multiverse. It was intended.
The problem is that the deities are too close to player characters in power. They should be unbelievably powerful, without a CR at all.
There is plenty of room for powerful extraplanar stuff in epic level campaigns. Leading crusades to hell, stopping Far Realm invasions, punching out minor demon lords, etc. etc.
> "why didn't Elminster stop all of these world ending threats before we got to them"
Because maybe Elminster didn't fucking get to them yet? Or a new threat popped up? Again, the deities should be out of reach of even Elminster. Their minions should be the problem.
>There is plenty of room for powerful extraplanar stuff in epic level campaigns. Leading crusades to hell, stopping Far Realm invasions, punching out minor demon lords, etc. etc.
Establishing permanent interplanar portals on Athas...
> 1/3rd of a year
> 7 man group (thus less XP for everyone)
> character intros session
Yeah you neglected to mention that shit. Again, if you played more intensely, for longer, with a smaller group, you would reach level 20 after about a year.
Although I don't know if I'm even replying to the person I was originally talking to anymore. But whatever.
> prison break
These cliches need to die. I know this is the game of "you all meet in a tavern" but sometimes it just gets fucking ridiculous.
This is how OotA starts. A module written by wotc. The first session still had combat, it was just one big fight rather than several encounters. And I mentioned the length of my game in my first response to you.
Personally, I'd start a huge Spell-Jammer esque campaign across the stars after level 20.
Let's be honest, Any threat after this point is usually better left to the newer and less-seasoned heroes of the new age. Your party's quest has transcended this materium.
Thanks! I will do that. I think what I may do is dip Barbarian for 2-3 levels and stay the course with Fighter instead, but now i'm stuck on going Battle Master or Eldritch Knight..
Man, I much preferred the old approach that doesn't equate level to zomg epicness. Not everything has to be about upping the ante. People don't need to be always tripping over themselves about how reality itself is under assault by the zogs from the nth dimension or whatever.
Here though I really take issue...
>That's because the idiots who designed the game have been sliding the gods further down the power scale with each edition. For fucks sake, you were meant to slay Orcus in 4e. A fucking cornerstone of the multiverse. It was intended.
You couldn't be more wrong. Deities were weakest early on, were simultaneously omnipotent but checked by every variant campaign's gizmo (lady of pain, dark powers, phlogstion) in 2e, and in 3e -- lets face it -- gods could be vaporized in ONE round. One fucking round. 4e's Orcus is by far the strongest incarnation of Orcus in ANY edition, BECMI possibly excepted.
>There is plenty of room for powerful extraplanar stuff in epic level campaigns.
Lets say you hit level 9000. What, not talking about level 9000 and only like... level 30? Whats wrong with you, not a TRUE gamer? Just spending time talking about flannel and microbrews instead of gaming? It shouldn't take that long to get there.
> Leading crusades to hell.
Damn, a pit fiend is only CR20, thats not really a challenge for my level 9000 character (or even a level 30 one) I would have to be doing something like fighting, I dunno, devil GODS. Like ASMODEUS or something.
>stopping Far Realm invasions
Kek, once again, this doesn't seem like an actual challenge for my LEVEL 9000 character (or a level 30 one) every threat from the far realm is either a paltry abberation or some sort of slime GOD or something.
>punching out minor demon lords, etc. etc.
Wow, have you even seen how weak the demon lords are? For a level 9000 character, or level 20 (or 30) they aren't big threats. I mean, if you want to have a bunch of level 40 characters and have them do menial shit like rescuing cats from trees, more power to you. But you don't actually need more rules for that then. Just cross out the "20" on your sheet and pencil in whatever number makes your dick feel bigger.
Wow these guys were useful for anything aside from soaking damage? When my DM ran this adventure he didn't have them do anything. We had Sarith, Shuushar, Stool, and the Twins. Sarith didn't say or do anything outside of shooting his hand crossbow, Shuushar didn't talk, Stool he told us was straight up a useless burden, and the Twins refused to help even in the Duergar city.
I've got no idea what your beef is. I will point out that coming up with suitable opponents for uber high level character is almost entirely limited to 3e onward, in which supposedly a level 24 character can't be threatened by level 18 characters. Its a scaling issue, nothing more.
5e for example is not bound by scaling woes and there's no particular reason level 21+ PCs can't be challenged by whatever.
The best chance of a 1v1 with a level 20 and a demon lord (lets say Demogorgon as he is the strongest) would be a divination wizard with lucky feat.
The wizard rerolls his lucky die and portents until at least 4 of them are UNDER 3 at least.
He then has to survive 3-4 rounds (depending on who won initiative) to successfully use Banishment against the demon lord.
Demon lords with lower Cha+ saving throws would not need as low rolls for portent/lucky