What do you say to a group of good adventurers to help convince them that they should be fighting on the side of demonkind?
>but adventurer, you are the demon
and then TPK
have their rest characters see how the previous party was the demons
someone did this with "marching powder" (cocaine) and it turned all the party deeds inside out, ending in a village of slendermen
Then you are truly lost!
offer them a select section of land form the conquered mortal worlds, which shall not approach the combined net worth of the damages inflicted throughout the entirety of the campaign which they participated in by 1/88 and 1/2
"Angels" and "Demons" aren't actually Good and Evil but Order and Freedom. Perhaps the Angels have been getting a little too heavy-handed and need to be taken down a notch.
Or just have them fight an even greater evil. One that's looking to destroy all of reality. Though I guess that's less "fighting on the side of" and more "fighting alongside of".
Mostly depends on setting but
- Demons are not evil, explain true about what they want from demon perspective.
- Same as 1 but betrayal at the end.
- There are worse things to worry than demons, join them to fight together.
- Good reward, for example >>44616959
- They are cursed/poisoned, the only way to live is fight on the demon side
Maybe the act of creating the world as you know it was a sin in and of itself. Maybe the world was supposed to end, and the demons are just ushering in the natural progression of the world.
Here's my idea. You make the offer a chance to change demon/evil society from the inside out. Give them demon houses, demon mortgages, and demon businesses. Then you give them the authority they need to survive in your system and teachers. So long as you aren't innately evil (or they don't realize you are), they might actually go for it.
Order and Chaos, good and Evil are required in these world's. They come from objective places, God and planes of existence.
Good comes in many shapes. We can advance Science and medicine decades if we forgo all human rights, does the ends justify the means. Both can be good.
Needs of the many, needs of the few.
You can also take how. Without evil or chaos, there is no incentive to progress, all problems are gone. But you stagnate. We humans thrive on conflict.
Give them hints its the end of the world and no ones made it on any of the gods rapture lists. That means about roughly 1billion sentient and uncountable nonsentient heads are on the chopping block. The demons want to stop all of this because no people to torment and manipulate means no way for them to get summoned to their favorite playground. Obviously the heroes need some help and the demons got that help in droves.
>We humans thrive on conflict.
You're kinda shit at recognizing causation and correlation. Humans thrive on PURPOSE. Giving them a conflict gives them a purpose to advance... aimed exclusively at ending the conflict. A race constantly besieged by demons will focus on only what allows them to [i]not[/i] be besieged by demons, and won't really have the time or resources to put much more effort into progressing other fields.
If you let the world's races live in peace, they'll be able to focus their efforts on more constructive things, like culture, magic, medicine, science, and diplomacy.
Different anon here. Its true though. We do thrive on conflict not purpose. You need purpose to make gains i agree but we make huge leaps and bound for tech and are willing to go without during wartimes but give us the purpose of stopping global warming and stopping the races eventual death and we all collective walk around with our dicks in our hands. We need clear immediately harmful threats towards our safety to truly get our shit going short term or long term.
Have the party come up against an encounter they have little to no hope of overcoming.
Something along the lines of:
They are all knocked out, on deaths door by a massive creature. a powerful demon stops time and tells them their only hope of getting out of this and saving the village, people, etc., is to sign into a pact with him, one that can only be undone by physically destroying a contract that one or more have signed.
It's a setting where instead of representing objective good and evil, angels and demons embody order and chaos, respectively.
Normally people associate minor aligment with order with good, because order is more conductive to civilisation, but either force taken to the extreme would be alien and imical to humanity so a balance must be maintained for humans to exist.
Both the angels and the demons, however, would want to eliminate the balance and tip the scale to their side. Recently the angels have made great gains, perhaps with the helpt of misguided humans who want to exterminate the "evil" demons, and it looks like they might win the war. Doing so would turn the universe into a place of pure order, eliminating free will and eventually freezing everything into an eternal unchanging stasis. This has to be stopped or humanity is doomed, even if it means allying with the demons.
tl;dr: the world has almost fallen to order, it's up to you to restore chaos!
>- Demons are not evil, explain true about what they want from demon perspective.
>- There are worse things to worry than demons, join them to fight together.
>- Good reward, for example >>44616959
I like this!
>tfw you will never have a demonic gf
>tfw she will never suck you off, wrapping her snaking demon tongue around your D
>tfw your penis will never elongate to a ridiculous length you never thought possible inside her throat 'cuz demon magic
>tfw OP's pic has no mouth anyway
Simple. Run the Chaos vs. Law angle instead of the Good vs. Evil angle. If you put it to them that the angels are being manipulated by the Hells to institute "True Order" and the Abyss is the only ones doing anything about it they would be dumb to say know.
This. I do exactly this in my setting. There is no objective good or evil, but there are cosmic entities related to order and entropy, angels and demons respectively. Generally, both are terrible to mankind and are to be avoided.
There's a ton of way you could approach this, but I prefer finding a way to reframe the argument. Put it in a different perspective.
When you think of a situation of angels vs demons, it's usually framed as a matter of good vs evil. But it's not much of a stretch to interpret as something else, like slavery vs freedom for example. Even the Bible has some obiouv traces of this. God demands obedience, and will punish you if you sin. Satan is a tempter, but he doesn't make demands. He lets you do your thing, he's all about letting people be people. To sin is human, after all. It doesn't take a whole lot of exaggeration to turn "joining the evil side" into "escaping the shackles of God."
Throw in some Moorcock-style "too much order is just as dangerous as too much chaos" and you've got yourself a far less morally objectionable point of view.
That argument has more weight in elder scrolls where things are going pretty well instead of dark souls where the laws of physics are breaking down and people are becoming mindless undead.
>in elder scrolls where things are going pretty well
What part of "every town you visit is in danger of being wiped out by multiple threats only a single person can solve, and every forty feet of wilderness contains some vampire coven or cult or monster or opening into an underworld filled with horrors" seems like things are going well?
Dark souls is pretty dark, but Elder Scrolls isn't exactly Animal Crossing.
Question, can the Magic Items be cursed in any way?
>Honestly? Any gear from a demon probably is cursed, it's just a question of if the curse outweighs the benefits
Offer them an airtight contract guaranteeing that in exchange for helping overthrow heaven and take over the earth they won't be tortured at all in hell, and will actually be treated very well. Include details on exactly how they'll be treated so they know there won't be any tricks. Then follow through with it, because doing otherwise would be bad for business.
Then if we win and have absolute power kick them out of hell and back to earth where we can do whatever we want to them.
There is actually something genuinely terrifying about that much fine print.
Like, I would rather try my hand at just fighting the guy, or even ten of those guys, rather than even attempt to read all that.
Demons and angels are just different species, like Elves and Dwarfs. Angels have long ago realized the benefits that come from having humans worship and serve them, and through their propaganda they have made demons seem like evil creatures and put themselves squarely as the good guys.
nigger this isn't even an obscure fact, do you even know what google is?
you can find all the sources you want to fit your arbitrarily defined and doubtless goalposting definition of "credible sources"
Do you really think we're beings of raw malevolence? That we have no hopes and desires, things we cherish beyond the suffering of others? No, that is what you see in us because that is what you have been told by the weak. There isn't enough in this world; there never has been and there never will be. The way to protect what you love is with the steel in your hands, you know this, why else would you put yourselves in our way? The very system we would bring is a system you yourselves would thrive in; where the mighty rule the weak.
It is not your measly "allies" who rediscovered the smithing of adamantium, and it wasn't the demons either; it was a small dwarf clan subjugated by a dragon that we slew. Incidental, yes, for we needed his horde to fuel the war machine, but it was the dwarves that sharpened our fangs for the protection we could give them.
It was not pacifists that refined the mass production of esuna miracles to eradicate small pox. It was the human generals who needed more men on the battlefields, both against us and against each other. To them, saving lives was a method of taking them, nothing more. That's the hypocrisy of your lives; we brought war, yes, but there was always war. War just as bloody as without us, just that it was between human nations for human reasons. You end this war, and you might have three years before another breaks out, you will have done nothing.
You hold in your hands the power to save what you want, and you can do that much easier by joining us and laying low the corruption of your nobility. Forsake the weak, not because they cannot fight, but because they will not fight. Search your hearts, you know you've seen nothing but people too afraid to die for what they believe in, demanding that you die in their place. What do you owe them? What do you owe a system that demands martyrs?
Cast off your chains and we will welcome you with open arms into the bosoms of our hearts.
Well in dark souls 2 it's implied that the whole undead thing is just a phase that will fix it self.... eventually. Your just have a chance to hit the reset button and make it pass much quicker. In elder scrolls IV and V it's "if you screw this up it's the end of the world, no do overs."
Hell dark souls one more or less stated the near mindless undead state is the natural state of humanity and some serous magic has to be worked to uplift the human race into living beings that can die. The spell isn't permanent though and has to be recast every so often. Like you have the chance to do at the end of two.
There is no logical argument for following a demon. Simply put, if you are working with or fighting for a demon you are making a morally incorrect choice in the strictest sense.
So it really can't have anything to do with logic, and as it's been said before in this thread that's not how demons operate. Instead, demons employ emotional arguments.
How do I convince an adventurer to fight on the side of demonkind? I ruin his life and pervert his morals.
I throw at him a handful of adventures that end with sorrow and misery as a result of his doing the right thing. I educate him that the world he's playing in is cold and heartless and that to win it, he has to embody those qualities.
And then I introduce a demon who can provide power and sweet success. And when my adventurer follows the demon's advice, things begin to go well.
And that's really all it takes. Sure, a seasoned player character will just reject the demon out of hand, because for some people the more they play fantasy roleplaying the more "good at it" they seem to think they are, and they stop playing their characters like people seeing this horror for the 1st time, and instead act like the 35th reincarnation of the same dude who has read all the core books and isn't surprised or moved by anything.
But if you have the right players, new or just good, you can really play around with such a fall from grace, and it's really fun.
Am I really going to be the first one to say this? Ok, lie to them. Lie through your fucking teeth. Make them feel like they are doing good, hell even create an illusion where they see things differently than they are. Devils convince you to do evil. Demons can just straight up lie.
Nothing, because the moment my DM tries to pull the whole DEMONS ARE JUST MISUNDERSTOOD GOOD GUYS IT'S THE GOOD GODS WHO ARE EVIL babby's first subversion routine is the moment I just start burning everything, both in his setting and in his house.
The problem is the fire. It waxes and wanes and its basically our soul. Nothing has a soul to begin with then the fire burns brighter and theres enough to go around then it dims and now theres only enough for the powerful to hoard. Can't even remember his name right now only wants you to sacrafice yourself to keep the flame going so he can live. Its even stated its a pitiful amount that will remain and that small ampunt surely won't be enpugh for everyone let alone the peon common man. You can let darkness reign for a bit and let the fire catch its breathe or keep straining it for dubious reasons possibly to horrible ends for it and everyone.
Funny thing, that happened during one of my old runs.
>Huge demon army sieging holy city
>no-win scenario for city people
"Go to their commander, see if you can get a one hour truce."
>PCs go, find huge balorgeneral.
"Can we have one hour?"
"...can we join you?"
>a faint scream is heard, carried by the wind by the city wall:
"what the fuuuuuuuuu..."
I dunno man. Tried that once and it worked. Now they just up and stab anyone offering anything above a "measly" reward for trying to bribe good or some such.
Trying to get them an actual base instead of a shack in the woods
>old lady is dying but her son/heir has gone missing
>says she just wants the boy to have a good city life as being a rich bitch spoiled her and ruined her life view till age 80
>says they can have the manse and 20% of the family riches if they just bring the kid back safely
>watch in horror as 4 LG and one CG start stabbing and lighting an old lady on her death
"She's obviously a demon or something schystys happening here. 20% of any immensely rich families wealth AND their fuck huge house?"
"No you fuck ups its a goddamned base offer."
"so the old lady JUST offered you a bitchin house and a boatload of money."
"......we humbly accept."
Now I'm just imagining four murderhobos being polite and respectful for an old lady corpse after a sudden magic-fuelled ptsd episode or something.
Did you let them take back their attacks or did their characters just flat out ice a little old granny?
>watch in horror as 4 LG and one CG start stabbing and lighting an old lady on her death
Looks like they aren't LG and CG anymore then, are they?
Also, giving someone riches and power is not inherently evil in and of itself. It's usually what the people do with it, that makes them evil: if someone is elevated to become a baron of a place and one of his friends is found guilty of a crime and he lets that friend go unpunished because he can: that's an act of evil.
>you take the money from the dodgy guy. Congratz, you're now CE, go kill a baby or something
Yeah this was the take back
>"so the old lady JUST offered you a bitchin house and a boatload of money."
>"......we humbly accept."
It would be problematic since they wanted to run a wholly good campaign for once so we did take it back.
After the first time an angel tries to smite the party because they're in the general vicinity of its target and aren't a group of paladins, they tend to have a bit more sympathy for the devils.
Seriosly, telling the party "Look, you'll have a castle and a palace each, a hundred thousand gold, three succubus concubines, dental and life insurance." Would probably be enough for my party.
Can you imagine those hips grinding ontop of you, rocking back and forth slowly while her long neck cranes doen to your ear to whisper to you, telling you how much you like it and how good it feels?
I thought it was an obvious reference to Revenge of the Sith.
She would probably just murder you.
Or, conscript you in some game.
Have a worse enemy in common with the adventurers than yourself?
>Creatures from beyond the astral realm are pushing into demon territory in the underworld, will a Paladin stand beside Asriel to fight Cthulhu?