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This card should be unbanned in Modern. It's...
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This card should be unbanned in Modern. It's not even broken.
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>>44610044
I don't believe you.
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>>44610098
It's a 4-drop Brainstorm at Sorcery Speed. It's not even that much better than Divination.
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>>44610044
Here's your response. Now go and stay go until you think about what you've said.
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>>44610044
>>44610190
Assuming this ISN'T bait, allow me to explain why you're wrong. It is a *repeatable* brainstorm, which you are protecting with counters and bounce. It is ALSO a repeatable source of bounce and fateseal, which together are an oppressive combination of tempo and resource denial and will take over a game on their own.
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>>44610044
you just want to sell off the playset at profit that you've bought at current low pricepoints

i'm watching you
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>>44610044
I agree but you'll be hard-pressed to convince anyone else.
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>>44610044
Lol. The card should be banned in Legacy, not unbanned in Modern
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Jace would be fine in modern. It might get slotted into Scapeshift and Twin might experiment with one or two copies but other than that no currently appreciable decks would include it.

Jace is problematic in Vintage because it can be powered out very early with moxen and similar acceleration. In Legacy you're okay tapping out to cast Jace because you have Force of Will or Daze ready to protect him.

In Modern yo tap out for Jace, Brainstorm and then eat an EoT pestermite into twin; or get hit for 12 lifelink damage from that Vault Skirge, or just have Jace get bolted and lose 4 mana for their 1. Strangely, Modern is actually 'too fast' for Jace since you can't afford to tap out without free counterspell backup.

Since none of you believe me anyway, I'll also chime in that Mental Misstep would not damage the metagame enough to warrant a ban. Unlike Legacy, where 1 mana spells are crazy important, most decks in Modern would be more than willing to trade their 1 drop for 2 life and one of your cards.
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>>44611238
>Since none of you believe me anyway, I'll also chime in that Mental Misstep would not damage the metagame enough to warrant a ban. Unlike Legacy, where 1 mana spells are crazy important, most decks in Modern would be more than willing to trade their 1 drop for 2 life and one of your cards.
lol
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>>44611238
>most decks in Modern would be more than willing to trade their 1 drop for 2 life and one of your cards.
>Most decks in Modern would be more than willing to trade their Path to Exile for 2 life and one of your cards
>Most decks in Modern would be more than willing to trade a game-winning Lightning Bolt for 2 life and one of your cards.
>Most decks in Modern would be more than willing to trade any number of sideboarded utility spells for 2 life and one of your cards.
Please go away and come back when you understand the meta.
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>>44610044

ban bolt, path, twin, fuck blue. Let the true aggro reign.
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>>44610703
I came.
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>>44611090
Why would Jace be banned in legacy?
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>>44611238
I was kinda on board with you on Jace. Misstep though? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

I think that something like a force of mana leak for 4cmc might be good for the format though.
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>>44611238
This post shows less understanding of any format than I've ever seen a post display. Jace is very fair in vintage, it's just good.
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>>44613987
Force of Will would be better and wouldn't have splash damage in the eternal formats
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>>44610044
Garruk, Apex Predator also has four loyalty abilities like Jace, three of which are astronomically useful, like Jace's.

Garruk, Apex Predator is 7 CMC, whereas Jace is 4 CMC. 4 CMC to choose between a free scry, Brainstorm, or removal is pretty good.

JMS also synergizes very well with Snapcaster Mage and other staples; the effects of such synergy is so absurd that NOT conceding the game immediately with both of them in play is a fool's gambit.

The win condition with JMS is far too high to ignore.
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>>44614215
Scooping to Jace is pretty premature. Its great in a midrange/control mirror, but an aggressive deck can generally just bolt it or attack it down
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>>44615139
Jace alone can be dealt with. But Jace + Snapcaster can get crazy the turn Jace comes in.
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>>44615199
Agree, but you cant just drop a jace on a board and expect to win. He's best when you are in a situation where you can take control of the game.

I play DnT in legacy, and most of the time I see a Jace he ends up eating a vialed crusader or flickerwisp to the face.
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>>44614215
JTMS and Snapcaster don't synergize at all. Sure they go in the same type of deck but the only common thread is "card advantage"
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>>44615199
I think even in that situation, if you don't have outs as an aggro deck you were probably losing already
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>>44615443
Jace's -1 bounces Snap back to hand t reuse though, how is that not synergy?
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>>44615481
You're minusing Jace for card advantage. I've done it, but its not that common. Brainstorming is usually better
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>>44610044
Why do people care about ban lists? If the creators of mtg actually cared they'd have a recall, not a sissy "we don't like his card anymore, stop playing with it".
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>>44615443
Synergy should be considered as both progressive and degradative.

Using JMS to bounce Snapcaster is degradative synergy, but still synergy.
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We won't see JTMS unbanned in Modern until WotC figures out a way to reprint him with enough supply to meet the explosive demand for the card in terms of secondary market prices.

If JTMS was legal in Modern he'd be the most expensive card in the format period, even if he was only a 1-2 of in blue decks just due to perceived power level of the card.
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The way Modern appears Jace is at best a Turn 6 or Turn 7 play.

I Turn 3 Karn, suck my balls.

That being said, I don't think Jace adds anything to the format. Control decks don't need more tools - they have plenty, Control deck simply just can't manage the majority of aggro decks in the format.

Name a single card that shits all over Infect, Burn, Affinity, and Boggles. They're all highly aggressive but there isn't anything that equally stonewalls all of them.
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>>44617832
>Control decks don't need more tools - they have plenty, Control deck simply just can't manage the majority of aggro decks in the format.
Modern control decks destroy (most) aggro. It's decks like Tron and Ad Nauseam that give control headaches.

>>44617832
>Name a single card that shits all over Infect, Burn, Affinity, and Boggles.
Pic Related. Print it and Counterspell and control would be Tier 1-1.5 overnight.
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>>44618136
We ain't getting counterspell anon. Not while twin is as good as it is.
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>>44613138
Mental misstep is comparable to a thoughtseize more often than not. If you asked a burn deck if on turn 1 it would rather deal 3 damage to your face with lightning bolt or 2 damage to your face and make you discard a card, they'd answer the latter every time.

Also, the fact that you even fucking mentioned Path to Exile is a joke. Jund, Affinity, Grixis and Tron are the top decks right now and none of them play Path.

Some common utility spells in sideboards:
Crumble to Dust
Fulminator Mage
Blood Moon
Ancient Grudge
Stony Silence
Rest in Peace
Relic of Progentius
Engineered Explosives
Choke
Duress
Spellskite
Nature's Claim
Rending Volley

Noticing any trends bucko? The vast majority of sideboard cards are not 1CMC.

Now let's look at the cards that actually get stopped by mental misstep:

-Most of Infect (Glistener, Vines, Groundswell, Mutagenic Growth)
-Delver of Secrets
-Lightning Bolt (you would only use MM on a bolt if it was aimed at a creature though)
-Springleaf Drum
-Signal Pest
-Aether Vial
-Serum Visions
-Gitaxian Probe
-Inquisition of Kozilek
-Thoughtseize
-Path to Exile
-Cursecatcher
-Expedition Map
-Ancient Stirrings
-Chromatic ____
-Spell Snare
-Dispel
-Spell Pierce
-Birds of Paradise
-Noble Hierarch
-Grim Lavanamncer
-Goblin Guide
-Monastery Swiftspear
-Mental Misstep
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>>44618387


I'll concede that countering an inquisition/thoughtseize is super beneficial. The overall card parity is the same (you lose 1) but your opponents don't get to remove to see your hand or remove what they may have wanted. The 4 life swing from countering a thoughtseize is not inconsequential but I'll say it doesn't matter more often than not.

Countering dispel, spell pierce or spell snare is also generally advantageous. In this way MM acts as 'insurance' for counter wars, which seems pretty fair in my opinion.

MM does very little against removal, bolt and path being the only real targets. If your creature is small enough to bolt it's also probably small enough that you would usually prefer having a second copy in hand rather than potentially protecting your first copy from removal your opponent may or may not draw. Good decks aren't playing Path right now but sure, against the few that do it would probably be a blowout.

Delver and the Burn creatures are not cards that decks like to lose but the 2 life lost is not insignificant and in many cases you would rather just bolt/terminate/decay/play a goyf to deal with the creature next turn instead.

Affinity very rarely gives a fuck if you counter Signal Pest/Springleaf Drum. All of their real threats are CMC2 (Skirge, Overseer, Plating, Ravager). In 90+% of games you'd rather have Spell Snare in your hand.

MM does nothing to Tron other than slow it down for a bit. Tron is not a deck that needs to win quickly, particularly if you aren't putting a lot of pressure on it. If you're devoting slots in your deck/hand to reactive answers (MM) you are playing less threats, meaning Tron doesn't mind losing a map or an egg since it isn't on a huge clock anyway. It'll drop a scrying or just find a natural tron, at which point MM becomes a totally dead draw.
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>>44618341
I always see this argument but I just don't get it. Twin doesn't usually run Mana Leak, and in the timespan they want to win the game they're basically the same card. Counterspell is only better than Leak in the late game.
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>>44618406

This goes on to my next point, MM becomes exponentially less useful as the game progresses. In order to have it early game (ie: the only time it is consistently useful) you would need to run at least 3 copies, additional copies very often being dead draws once the game passes turn 3. Simply put, MM does not do anything significant enough against any deck other than Infect to justify playing it in your average deck. The only decks that would want it are combo decks like Twin, Storm, Infect, or Nivmagus Elemental that would use it as an additional piece of conditional protection the turn they tap out to try and win. The stated reason for the banning of MM is that it would be degenerate and every deck would play it so that every deck could counter every other deck's MM and that simply would not happen.
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>make a card
>ban it

Why do card game companies do this?
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>>44618460
Raigeki is unbanned though.
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>>44618460
Because they underestimate the impact the card will have
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>>44618460
Because they fucked up, and it is their way of saying "Wow, we fucked up. Sorry guys. Please forgive us."
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>>44618504
>>44618569
They do playtest right?
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>>44618429
>and that simply would not happen
Except that's precisely the reason it was banned in Legacy. Any deck can have access to Mental Misstep, and the most efficient answer to Mental Misstep is Mental Misstep.

The card is degenerate, and absolutely deserves to be banned and stay banned. End of story.
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>>44618579
They do, but a playtest can only has so many people and time available to it.
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>>44618579
Yeah, but every so often they'll miss something. The playtesters for games aren't on the same level as the best players worldwide.
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>>44618579
Yes but it's impossible to account for every single situation that will come up ever.
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>>44618429
As a UR Delver player I would jam 4 copies of Mental Misstep in a heartbeat.
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>>44611238
>no currently appreciable decks would include it.
decks would spring up for it.
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Anyone have that Jace edit?
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>>44619101
I would in merfolk. Gotta protect my vials.
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>>44618579
Well, Konami doesn't
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>>44619524
Exactly. Miracles would become viable
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>>44618579
Not for eternal and non-rotating format, no. The reason being that there are so many variables to consider for such formats that playtesting for them would be give about as much conclussive information as not playtesting at all.

So they instead concentrate their resources on the formats they actually have a chance of keeping track of, but even then it's not foolproof. R&D only has so many people and so much time before the set has to be printed and can't possibly know exactly what the coming years Standard will look like exactly, though normally they have a pretty good idea.

The last time they fucked up bad was when Jace, the Mind Sculptor was in charge of Caw-Blade. What happened was that the FFL had predicted that Caw-Blade, Valakut Ramp, and Vengevine Aggro would make up the tier 1 of the meta, with Vengevine decks beating up Caw-Blade beating up Valakut. See what's wrong in this picture? Vengevine aggro decks never appeared in Standard, because Valakut decks made them unplayable. The Valakut decks that were played in the FFL were neutered underpowered shadows of what they turned out to be when professional players started building them, and they made the one deck that was meant to beat Caw-Blade unplayable.
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>>44618406
>>44618387
>>44611238
Youre completly misunderstanding Mental Misstep. The problem isnt that its a good counter, the problem is that its a 1 CMC spell itself. You have literally every deck running MM just to counter other MM's, thats why it was banned not because it was good, but because literally 100% of all decks included it as a 4-of instantly.
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>>44610044
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>>44610044
Sensei's Divining Top unban when?
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>>44610703
>beat a jace which is active for 6 turns with an active counterbalance lock while playing death and taxes.
He wasn't playing very well, but seriously it is not that bad for most decks.
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>>44618595
Except you only need to answer Mental Misstep if their Mental Misstep answers something you care about, which is significantly less likely in Modern than Legacy.

Mind you, I'm a different Anon and I'm not advocating unbanning it in Modern (because I hate Modern with a passion and therefore do not give a shit about it), just pointing out your incorrect reasoning.
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>>44615617
because we're not 12-year olds around the kitchen table like you, and you actually have to follow the rules if you want to play at the big boy table.
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>>44620275
Konami does playtest, their test realm is called OCG. Then everything that excels is rarity bumped in TCG before it gets banned.
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>>44626325
This is true, but Konami of Japan doesn't playtest cards before they're released. Instead, cards are released in the OCG, and whatever the pros play gets rarity bumped and then banned in 6 months. When, in reality, those cards never should have been released to begin with.

If you think power creep in Magic is bad, picture this: 6 months worth of power creep in Yugioh is equivalent to the difference between Mirage-block legacy and present day Legacy. Yeah.
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>>44611238
Pfffhahahaha.
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>>44624114
Because a card game publisher can't figure out how to balance cards?Also, how does "Compettetively plays a children's card game" look on your resume?
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>>44626851
MtG isn't a Children's Card Game, it's a Virgin's Card Game
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>>44610044
The free brainstorm a turn is pretty powerful with miracles and the fateseal ability leads to unfun games by messing up all the opponent's draws
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>>44610703
Holy shit.
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>>44624094
... not really? Path your Exarch/Misstep/Misstep is a thing that would happen in Modern.

The principle of the thing SHOULD be enough to make it obvious that Misstep has no place in the game, regardless of how much play it'd see in a specific format. But I think people also have a tendency to vastly underestimate how much Misstep would be played if it were ever unbanned.
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>>44610703
That's fairly accurate.
>tfw play MUD
>tfw killing jace with a staff of nin
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>>44623390
Counter top is also only a lock if you let it be, it is possible to overload a top. Most people just give up.

My favorite is playing MUD, they go turn 1 top turn 2 counterbalance while you drop a turn 2 lodestone golem and CB does nothing
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>>44627804
>tfw following Jace up with a Null Rod
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>>44627804
>Playing MUD
>Cast blightsteel the hard way
>they spin top in response
Maybe you accidentally added a twelve drop I guess
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This thread is making me miss scars-innistrad standard. That power level was fucking glorious.
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>>44618504
>>44618579

Yeah, but they never considered Skullclamp to be a manasink

and god knows how Konami printed pic related
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>>44627919

they do that to dig for a fow. you can spin top and then draw the top card still and then respond with a counter.
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>>44628796
That's true, but they'll do it into a trinisphere or whatnot sometimes. I just like that the deck just laughs atb counterbalance and shows why it's a soft lock.
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>>44628194
It was pretty great, but I was more fond of the retarded amounts of good removal Zendikar-Scars had.
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>>44618460
Because like everything with a competitive side/focus, idiots who think they're good whine and complain until it gets banned or something changes, instead of getting better or learning.
I know it's /v/ but just look at TF2.
On release, near perfect balance. Then the retards were all:
>>Baaaawwwwwww I got backstabbed as a sniper!
>>Bawwwwwwwww I got sniped as a scout!
>>Bawwwwwwww Scouts are outmanoeuvring my heavy!
>>BAWWWWWWWWWW Medic won't heal my soldier 'cause I can't aim for shit and constantly ignore threats!

Valve bent-.. well, wobbled over backwards (causing many tsunamis and earthquakes) and released all manner of shit.
Granted they didn't ban anything, but my point stands.

Tl;dr: Idiots bitch instead of getting better/something gets exploited by a monumental cunt, then they ban it because people don't want to have to think or change their play style. Entitled fuckwits.
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>>44628993
That trio of blocks was outstanding for eternal players. No less than three decks birthed heh from cards released during that stretch. Although I guess Canadian threshold was a thing before delver was printed.
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>>44627804
>Play dredge
>Never see jace resolve
Just here, securing a future for our archetype and combo players everywhere.
14//88!
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>>44628718
Hes unbanned now
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>>44631038
To be fair Jace probably comes out against dredge/combo in general
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>>44610044
I agree with you
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>>44633182
but he's been errata'd
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>>44617321
Do you REALLY think WoTC cares about the secondary market? At all?

See Snapcaster/Liliana of the Veil/Grove of the Burn Willows
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>>44621484

>every turn a player has an extra mana becomes 1 minute longer
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>>44633182
He's been errata'd. And by errata'd I mean nerfed to the point where he's not even remotely playable.

At this point, Konami may as well errata Pot of Greed as: "Draw 2 Cards, then you lose 8000 LP."
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I own a playset, as well as 4 sealed FTV: 20 boxes, so I'd be buying my own private island if Jace ever got unbanned in Modern.
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>>44611238
You can't bolt Jace because he rolls up immediately, moron.
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>>44638843
Only if you fateseal first, and then he dies to almost any attack
Its way harder to protect a Jace in Modern than Legacy
I'd like to see him unbanned, but it probably does help Twin more than it makes slow control decks viable so its probably not the right environment.

Mental Misstep is never going to be a good unban because its necessary to deal with your opponents Missteps. It should have cost 2 phyrexian blue, it seems like a pretty obvious fix that I'm surprised they didn't see in development.
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>>44639284
So despite having a counter to your counter inside one card, because of the fact that he doesn't have a counter for literally everything you can do ever all at once and in one turn, he's totally fair? I'd think this was bait if I didn't hear "dies to removal" from idiots like you all the time.
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>>44639361
Its a good card, yes. It's also a format where turn 4 wins are pretty common and hard control isn't really that playable. Jace would allow blue based control to go over the top of jund/junk and give those decks a threat for the late game. Seems fine to me.
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>>44639284
To be fair, as bad as MM was for legacy it has made vintage a lot more interesting
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>>44639413
>PLZ BUFF BLU CUNTROLL IS UNDERPOWER
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>>44639439
Not him but... it is?

Control shells are more something that can go with a lot of decks in modern, it's not an archetype in and of itself. The closest you get is probably Twin or Delver, and their main focus is really other things, the counterspells are just there for protection.
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Unban Jace. And Deathrite, Stoneforge, BBE. Also reprint storm cards. And FoW.
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>>44639439
It's not underpowered, it's unplayable. The best control deck in the format is twin.
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>>44639465
And dread return

Unfortunately, modern isn't the format for skill testing decks
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>>44639465
Unban Jace, Stoneforge, BBE, Seething Song, Sword of the Meek, Ancestral Vision and Dig Through Time
There, Modern is cool again
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>>44639510
Id like to see the artifact lands back. Thoughcast tezz control isn't possible without them
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>>44639439
Control decks suck in modern you retard

It's extremely hard to control the game when your opponent can be dropping karn turn 3 or primevil titan turn 2 or just be playing burn or some other combo aggro strat.

There is no popular control list at the moment.Tron is not a control deck and grixis control has a fuck ton of bad match ups
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>>44639547
Gifts? That's kinda control.
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>>44639618
>>44639547
Dat feel when agree with OP because I run Jeskai control.
>tfw you still somehow win games against aggro decks and twin just by barely outplaying them
>But still usually just die to some more aggro deck where you can't 1 for 1 properly or even counter.
>tfw barely squeezing by because ojutai and cryptics saving your ass.
Nah guys control has been getting smashed in pretty hard by all other aggro decks and combos. Combos are somewhat manageable but aggro crushes you. At this point might as well run midrange at least then I can geist to death.
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>>44639700
>Tearing up cards
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>>44611238
Other than Mental Misstep, he is fine. Jace was playable the first time he was in T2, because BBelf was legal and the format was too quick. Maybe they should unban both cards.
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>>44639700
I just realised those cards in the pic seem to be fake. No blue inner layer anywhere, it seems.
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>>44639361
Most of modern's creature base is about costing as much or less than common removal, being a combo piece, or not actually completely dying to removal.
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>>44639547
Tron plays sweepers and cantrips/card filtering until it deploys a threat that the opponent can't deal with.

It feels like a combo but it's literally just a ramp control deck and what it ramps into is busted and nearly unbeatable once played. That's how controls decks have always operated. Karn doesn't ACTUALLY combo kill you, nothing in Tron does.
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>>44641098
Lol as if chinamen would bother making fake Jace Belerens , a $10 card, when they could make fetches and goyfs.
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>>44641210
Tron is pretty pure ramp deck, casting pyroclasm once in a while doesn't make it a control deck. Its way more about casting big threats fast and often than controlling the game
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>>44637786
>Do you REALLY think WoTC cares about the secondary market? At all?
Yes.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/how-wizards-manages-its-savings-account
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>>44640771
When it was shards/zendikar standard Jace was pretty bad. Fast creature decks were everywhere and the top deck ran bolt/blightning/maelstrom pulse to instagib Jace. The first deck to play him was a blue white control list that ran a ton of sweepers and cancels. It was good, but not amazing.

All of these factors would lead me tool believe that Jace is at least not going to be going unchecked.
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>>44641098
The core is clearly visible on a few of the close up pieces. Like the Verdant Catacombs, in front.
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>>44646788
Huh, you're right. For some reason I didn't notice. Welp.
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>>44645002
I agree, my jeskai control needs a powerful planeswalker and Ajani and Narseth aren't cutting it to slow everything down. I need a planeswalker that helps me stave off aggro when I play him, or at least dig for an answer instead of being trampled over by creatures.
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>>44648387
The best control finishers right now are splinter twin or scapeshift
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