>>44610044 >>44610190 Assuming this ISN'T bait, allow me to explain why you're wrong. It is a *repeatable* brainstorm, which you are protecting with counters and bounce. It is ALSO a repeatable source of bounce and fateseal, which together are an oppressive combination of tempo and resource denial and will take over a game on their own.
Jace would be fine in modern. It might get slotted into Scapeshift and Twin might experiment with one or two copies but other than that no currently appreciable decks would include it.
Jace is problematic in Vintage because it can be powered out very early with moxen and similar acceleration. In Legacy you're okay tapping out to cast Jace because you have Force of Will or Daze ready to protect him.
In Modern yo tap out for Jace, Brainstorm and then eat an EoT pestermite into twin; or get hit for 12 lifelink damage from that Vault Skirge, or just have Jace get bolted and lose 4 mana for their 1. Strangely, Modern is actually 'too fast' for Jace since you can't afford to tap out without free counterspell backup.
Since none of you believe me anyway, I'll also chime in that Mental Misstep would not damage the metagame enough to warrant a ban. Unlike Legacy, where 1 mana spells are crazy important, most decks in Modern would be more than willing to trade their 1 drop for 2 life and one of your cards.
>>44611238 >Since none of you believe me anyway, I'll also chime in that Mental Misstep would not damage the metagame enough to warrant a ban. Unlike Legacy, where 1 mana spells are crazy important, most decks in Modern would be more than willing to trade their 1 drop for 2 life and one of your cards. lol
>>44611238 >most decks in Modern would be more than willing to trade their 1 drop for 2 life and one of your cards. >Most decks in Modern would be more than willing to trade their Path to Exile for 2 life and one of your cards >Most decks in Modern would be more than willing to trade a game-winning Lightning Bolt for 2 life and one of your cards. >Most decks in Modern would be more than willing to trade any number of sideboarded utility spells for 2 life and one of your cards. Please go away and come back when you understand the meta.
The way Modern appears Jace is at best a Turn 6 or Turn 7 play.
I Turn 3 Karn, suck my balls.
That being said, I don't think Jace adds anything to the format. Control decks don't need more tools - they have plenty, Control deck simply just can't manage the majority of aggro decks in the format.
Name a single card that shits all over Infect, Burn, Affinity, and Boggles. They're all highly aggressive but there isn't anything that equally stonewalls all of them.
>>44617832 >Control decks don't need more tools - they have plenty, Control deck simply just can't manage the majority of aggro decks in the format. Modern control decks destroy (most) aggro. It's decks like Tron and Ad Nauseam that give control headaches.
>>44617832 >Name a single card that shits all over Infect, Burn, Affinity, and Boggles. Pic Related. Print it and Counterspell and control would be Tier 1-1.5 overnight.
>>44613138 Mental misstep is comparable to a thoughtseize more often than not. If you asked a burn deck if on turn 1 it would rather deal 3 damage to your face with lightning bolt or 2 damage to your face and make you discard a card, they'd answer the latter every time.
Also, the fact that you even fucking mentioned Path to Exile is a joke. Jund, Affinity, Grixis and Tron are the top decks right now and none of them play Path.
Some common utility spells in sideboards: Crumble to Dust Fulminator Mage Blood Moon Ancient Grudge Stony Silence Rest in Peace Relic of Progentius Engineered Explosives Choke Duress Spellskite Nature's Claim Rending Volley
Noticing any trends bucko? The vast majority of sideboard cards are not 1CMC.
Now let's look at the cards that actually get stopped by mental misstep:
-Most of Infect (Glistener, Vines, Groundswell, Mutagenic Growth) -Delver of Secrets -Lightning Bolt (you would only use MM on a bolt if it was aimed at a creature though) -Springleaf Drum -Signal Pest -Aether Vial -Serum Visions -Gitaxian Probe -Inquisition of Kozilek -Thoughtseize -Path to Exile -Cursecatcher -Expedition Map -Ancient Stirrings -Chromatic ____ -Spell Snare -Dispel -Spell Pierce -Birds of Paradise -Noble Hierarch -Grim Lavanamncer -Goblin Guide -Monastery Swiftspear -Mental Misstep
I'll concede that countering an inquisition/thoughtseize is super beneficial. The overall card parity is the same (you lose 1) but your opponents don't get to remove to see your hand or remove what they may have wanted. The 4 life swing from countering a thoughtseize is not inconsequential but I'll say it doesn't matter more often than not.
Countering dispel, spell pierce or spell snare is also generally advantageous. In this way MM acts as 'insurance' for counter wars, which seems pretty fair in my opinion.
MM does very little against removal, bolt and path being the only real targets. If your creature is small enough to bolt it's also probably small enough that you would usually prefer having a second copy in hand rather than potentially protecting your first copy from removal your opponent may or may not draw. Good decks aren't playing Path right now but sure, against the few that do it would probably be a blowout.
Delver and the Burn creatures are not cards that decks like to lose but the 2 life lost is not insignificant and in many cases you would rather just bolt/terminate/decay/play a goyf to deal with the creature next turn instead.
Affinity very rarely gives a fuck if you counter Signal Pest/Springleaf Drum. All of their real threats are CMC2 (Skirge, Overseer, Plating, Ravager). In 90+% of games you'd rather have Spell Snare in your hand.
MM does nothing to Tron other than slow it down for a bit. Tron is not a deck that needs to win quickly, particularly if you aren't putting a lot of pressure on it. If you're devoting slots in your deck/hand to reactive answers (MM) you are playing less threats, meaning Tron doesn't mind losing a map or an egg since it isn't on a huge clock anyway. It'll drop a scrying or just find a natural tron, at which point MM becomes a totally dead draw.
>>44618341 I always see this argument but I just don't get it. Twin doesn't usually run Mana Leak, and in the timespan they want to win the game they're basically the same card. Counterspell is only better than Leak in the late game.
This goes on to my next point, MM becomes exponentially less useful as the game progresses. In order to have it early game (ie: the only time it is consistently useful) you would need to run at least 3 copies, additional copies very often being dead draws once the game passes turn 3. Simply put, MM does not do anything significant enough against any deck other than Infect to justify playing it in your average deck. The only decks that would want it are combo decks like Twin, Storm, Infect, or Nivmagus Elemental that would use it as an additional piece of conditional protection the turn they tap out to try and win. The stated reason for the banning of MM is that it would be degenerate and every deck would play it so that every deck could counter every other deck's MM and that simply would not happen.
>>44618429 >and that simply would not happen Except that's precisely the reason it was banned in Legacy. Any deck can have access to Mental Misstep, and the most efficient answer to Mental Misstep is Mental Misstep.
The card is degenerate, and absolutely deserves to be banned and stay banned. End of story.
>>44618579 Not for eternal and non-rotating format, no. The reason being that there are so many variables to consider for such formats that playtesting for them would be give about as much conclussive information as not playtesting at all.
So they instead concentrate their resources on the formats they actually have a chance of keeping track of, but even then it's not foolproof. R&D only has so many people and so much time before the set has to be printed and can't possibly know exactly what the coming years Standard will look like exactly, though normally they have a pretty good idea.
The last time they fucked up bad was when Jace, the Mind Sculptor was in charge of Caw-Blade. What happened was that the FFL had predicted that Caw-Blade, Valakut Ramp, and Vengevine Aggro would make up the tier 1 of the meta, with Vengevine decks beating up Caw-Blade beating up Valakut. See what's wrong in this picture? Vengevine aggro decks never appeared in Standard, because Valakut decks made them unplayable. The Valakut decks that were played in the FFL were neutered underpowered shadows of what they turned out to be when professional players started building them, and they made the one deck that was meant to beat Caw-Blade unplayable.
>>44618406 >>44618387 >>44611238 Youre completly misunderstanding Mental Misstep. The problem isnt that its a good counter, the problem is that its a 1 CMC spell itself. You have literally every deck running MM just to counter other MM's, thats why it was banned not because it was good, but because literally 100% of all decks included it as a 4-of instantly.
>>44618595 Except you only need to answer Mental Misstep if their Mental Misstep answers something you care about, which is significantly less likely in Modern than Legacy.
Mind you, I'm a different Anon and I'm not advocating unbanning it in Modern (because I hate Modern with a passion and therefore do not give a shit about it), just pointing out your incorrect reasoning.
>>44626325 This is true, but Konami of Japan doesn't playtest cards before they're released. Instead, cards are released in the OCG, and whatever the pros play gets rarity bumped and then banned in 6 months. When, in reality, those cards never should have been released to begin with.
If you think power creep in Magic is bad, picture this: 6 months worth of power creep in Yugioh is equivalent to the difference between Mirage-block legacy and present day Legacy. Yeah.
>>44624094 ... not really? Path your Exarch/Misstep/Misstep is a thing that would happen in Modern.
The principle of the thing SHOULD be enough to make it obvious that Misstep has no place in the game, regardless of how much play it'd see in a specific format. But I think people also have a tendency to vastly underestimate how much Misstep would be played if it were ever unbanned.
>>44618460 Because like everything with a competitive side/focus, idiots who think they're good whine and complain until it gets banned or something changes, instead of getting better or learning. I know it's /v/ but just look at TF2. On release, near perfect balance. Then the retards were all: >>Baaaawwwwwww I got backstabbed as a sniper! >>Bawwwwwwwww I got sniped as a scout! >>Bawwwwwwww Scouts are outmanoeuvring my heavy! >>BAWWWWWWWWWW Medic won't heal my soldier 'cause I can't aim for shit and constantly ignore threats!
Valve bent-.. well, wobbled over backwards (causing many tsunamis and earthquakes) and released all manner of shit. Granted they didn't ban anything, but my point stands.
Tl;dr: Idiots bitch instead of getting better/something gets exploited by a monumental cunt, then they ban it because people don't want to have to think or change their play style. Entitled fuckwits.
>>44628993 That trio of blocks was outstanding for eternal players. No less than three decks birthed heh from cards released during that stretch. Although I guess Canadian threshold was a thing before delver was printed.
>>44638843 Only if you fateseal first, and then he dies to almost any attack Its way harder to protect a Jace in Modern than Legacy I'd like to see him unbanned, but it probably does help Twin more than it makes slow control decks viable so its probably not the right environment.
Mental Misstep is never going to be a good unban because its necessary to deal with your opponents Missteps. It should have cost 2 phyrexian blue, it seems like a pretty obvious fix that I'm surprised they didn't see in development.
>>44639284 So despite having a counter to your counter inside one card, because of the fact that he doesn't have a counter for literally everything you can do ever all at once and in one turn, he's totally fair? I'd think this was bait if I didn't hear "dies to removal" from idiots like you all the time.
>>44639361 Its a good card, yes. It's also a format where turn 4 wins are pretty common and hard control isn't really that playable. Jace would allow blue based control to go over the top of jund/junk and give those decks a threat for the late game. Seems fine to me.
Control shells are more something that can go with a lot of decks in modern, it's not an archetype in and of itself. The closest you get is probably Twin or Delver, and their main focus is really other things, the counterspells are just there for protection.
>>44639618 >>44639547 Dat feel when agree with OP because I run Jeskai control. >tfw you still somehow win games against aggro decks and twin just by barely outplaying them >But still usually just die to some more aggro deck where you can't 1 for 1 properly or even counter. >tfw barely squeezing by because ojutai and cryptics saving your ass. Nah guys control has been getting smashed in pretty hard by all other aggro decks and combos. Combos are somewhat manageable but aggro crushes you. At this point might as well run midrange at least then I can geist to death.
>>44639547 Tron plays sweepers and cantrips/card filtering until it deploys a threat that the opponent can't deal with.
It feels like a combo but it's literally just a ramp control deck and what it ramps into is busted and nearly unbeatable once played. That's how controls decks have always operated. Karn doesn't ACTUALLY combo kill you, nothing in Tron does.
>>44640771 When it was shards/zendikar standard Jace was pretty bad. Fast creature decks were everywhere and the top deck ran bolt/blightning/maelstrom pulse to instagib Jace. The first deck to play him was a blue white control list that ran a ton of sweepers and cancels. It was good, but not amazing.
All of these factors would lead me tool believe that Jace is at least not going to be going unchecked.
>>44645002 I agree, my jeskai control needs a powerful planeswalker and Ajani and Narseth aren't cutting it to slow everything down. I need a planeswalker that helps me stave off aggro when I play him, or at least dig for an answer instead of being trampled over by creatures.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the shown content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows their content, archived. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content, then use the post's [Report] link! If a post is not removed within 24h contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org with the post's information.