>HHG FAQ - http://pastebin.com/iUqNrrA8 (embed)
>HHG RULES - https://mega.nz/#F!pFgm0RKR!J06C1gVYcjzNGsF8YNLsjQ!EVh0GZZS
>Xenos in 30K Homebrew - https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Xenos_in_30k
starting by asking How would you represent future chapters like the Aroura chapter that are mentioned in the books, partial chapter colors? just the shoulder? something else?
The rules link should really be updated to this:
The MEGA is pretty shitty when it comes to providing all the books.
Going to take a bunch of Raven Guard vets with suspensor-web missile launchers, think GK Psycannons will look the part with a bit of work?
I like the idea of the missile launcher suspensor webs but they only come in the destroyer packs
I just used the recon marine torsos with the heavy support squad arms and regular missile launchers.
If anyone complains there's no suspensor web visible I'll have no words to express my disappointment in them manifesting such pedantry.
some chapters like the black templars are showing their roots in 30k IF with black armor from some great crusade campaign, with just yellow helmets and pauldrons and crusader emblems mixed with the standard fist. Others so far just exist just as mere emblems, such as the twin axes for Rann's company/Executioners chapter or crossed-scythes for the Ultramarines 199th/Scythes of the Emperor.
So I play Word Bearers and want some Daemon allies, basically want Be'lakor for generic undivided prince and then one of each god's unit for Elites, Troops, FA and HS. However I have no Experience with Daemons and need to know what are the good/shit units
I just wanted a Daemon prince that represents Ingethel and considering there's no undivided option it would be the best choice
Yes i know invisibility is still super strong which is why I'm trying to not just make a cheese list
>I'm trying to not just make a cheese list
Bullshit. You start out by saying youre taking Belakor, then asking what are the strong and weak units. That suggests youre building your list with a powergaming approach. If you werent, youd be taking the units that you like, or that fit your armys fluff. Go back to 40k, you dont belong here.
>You start out by saying youre taking Belakor
Yes because there's no undivided Daemon Prince
>then asking what are the strong and weak units
Because according to my group Daemons are a hard army to play as and has a bunch of pitfalls I wanted to know if there were more units that were as shit as furies or chaos spawn
>youd be taking the units that you like, or that fit your armys fluff
Word Bearers worship Chaos Undivided which is why I wanted an Undivided Prince and one of each of the gods unit
Dont listen to that anon, hes trying too hard. You take Be'lakor sweetie, add some nurgle in your troops, slaanesh seekers and khorne dogs then something tzeentchy in your heavy support.
>Yes because there's no undivided Daemon Prince
Yeah, this is one of those retarded decision GW took when they decided that Be'lakor is the only Undivided daemon prince in all of WHFB and 40k. I guess Lorgar and Peturabo never became daemons then.
As much as it disgusts me to say it, there has been talking of Peter Abbot and Loogie being assigned to one of the four gods as DPs. I sincerely hope not, but that's what tends to happen when stringent canon practices ensue.
>S&P is transferred from to the unit if at least one model has it
>Cataphractii armour gives the model S&P
>S&P counts as not moving
>S&P lets charge after you shoot rapid fire weapons
>Tac squads can now move, shoot, and then charge
Am I missing something here?
I still think it'd be far more interesting to see Pert and Lorgar be demon princes of two gods rather than all four, one of Khorne/Nurgle and the other Slaanesh/Tzeentch.Its always about the gods that are diametrically opposed but what of the gods that arent? Wouldnt they be more prone to make alliances against their enemies and empower pawns for their own very similar ends? Khorne/Nurgle is death, a universal bloodbath for one and entropy for the other, Slaanesh/Tzeentch is the quest for power and perfection, knowldege and the ever changing extasis.
Well I hope so.
Yeah this is just part of the greater problem of Slow and Purposeful. I see no reason why there isn't a "Slow" special rule and have Slow and Purposeful simply grant that plus Relentless. Then the issue is resolved, plus a whole load more where the game wants to have sluggish units (coughNecrons)
He's talking about Cataphractii armour, which goes the whole hog with SnP in exchange for a 4++.
>He's talking about Cataphractii armour, which goes the whole hog with SnP in exchange for a 4++.
If that contradicts my statement in any way, kindly enlighten me as to how, because it means I'm screwing something up.
You mean you want them to be dual-god Princes? I'll nbe honest, I've always wanted that as a concept in 40K and I've brought it up where possible in a few threads (one from about two months ago was quite productive, I ended up making six demigods for each possible crossover).
But for Lorgar and Perts, I don't know if it's appropriate. Perturabo is just perfect for the iron cult/pact that lives in the warp and makes Soulgrinders among other things, a sort-of arms cartel mixed with a loanshark of souls. While Lorgar truly deserves to be the daemonic champion of Chaos Glory, perhaps the complement to Abaddon's mortal dominion.
Bella Core is more Chaos Neutral to me, Chaos Minimal. He's the Daemon Prince of Furies, all small and spiteful and nasty. All very circular without much real drive, wouldn't know what to do without an enemy to begrudge and hate.
If Cataphractii armour didn't confer SnP, then it would be a free upgrade over Tartaros. There's no way to get a special rule other than by having it confered upon the unit, whether it's in the description or not. The semantics aren't unclear.
Slow and Purposeful prevents Run movements, Overwatching shooting and Sweeping Advance assault victories.
So this has been a problem for a while. In the Book 1 FAQ and Errata they fixed it (See pic) but due to a copy/paste error, it wasn't fixed in the LA:CAL. Basically S&P is not supposed to be conferred to the unit from Cataphractii armour. Hopefully in the next LA:CAL they'll fix it.
You asked for burning, anon. Now look what you've done.
Oh yeah, it's all easily resolved in an actual game. Just a shame that an opportunity to condense the rules in one spot is missed.
It's all part of the great game. Tzeentch is trying to make Slaanesh jealous.
Pert aside, if you want to see Lorgar as anything else than a devotee of all the chaos gods, you are a total retard with terrible taste. There is literally no hope for you, you should stop discussing 30k and 40k fluff and never return here until you repent.
>It's all part of the great game. Tzeentch is trying to make Slaanesh jealous.
But wouldn't that make Nugle get butthurt about it and try to destroy it much like that one world that cured all natural diseases?
Then GW should let us play Undivided daemon princes that works that way instead of forcing players to use Be'lakor to play an Undivided army. I strongly dislike the idea of locking army types with special characters.
They should, but they have some weird boners about ancient fluff that doesn't really gel with the modern product and didn't add any depth to the universe in any case. I'm all for salvaging forgotten goodness from RT but some things were left behind for good reason.
Egggghhhhh. Like this bit of fluff right here. I'll be honest, Nurgle as the god of despair makes so little sense to me. Nurgle's followings are happy as fuck, they accept their nature as foetid zombies with indolent glee. Having Nurgle as the god of Despair would be like having Khorne as the god of Peace.
Althought now I'm getting the idea of people trying to appease Khorne to send down scary deamons to drive off their attackers and stop the fighting, only for it to go wrong . . . maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all. Could people call upon Tzeentch in an effort to deny others hope by entangling them in endless politics and intrigues? Or use Slaanesh to make others feel despondent and longing with jealousy? I'm suddenly starting to like my flaming boner, I mean, even more.
>They should, but they have some weird boners about ancient fluff that doesn't really gel with the modern product and didn't add any depth to the universe in any case. I'm all for salvaging forgotten goodness from RT but some things were left behind for good reason.
That sounds kinda retarded since GW fucks with their fluff all the time.
>Egggghhhhh. Like this bit of fluff right here. I'll be honest, Nurgle as the god of despair makes so little sense to me. Nurgle's followings are happy as fuck, they accept their nature as foetid zombies with indolent glee. Having Nurgle as the god of Despair would be like having Khorne as the god of Peace.
He feeds of your despair. He brings despair through disease and if my suspicion on unicorns being constructs of Nurgle to harvest despair of virgins. He makes you despair with Nurgle's Rot to the point where you give into it and him. He hates hope since it is Tzeentch's fuel and logically he would destroy anything that brings hope.
But Nurgle IS about despair - despair is giving up on all hope. Nurgle's followers are so happy because they no longer give a single fuck about anything. When you stop giving a fuck, you don't care anymore. Contrast this to Tzeentch - his followers are full of hope, but they come off as paranoid and worried rather than happy and chill. Hope makes you expect more, leading to disappointment. Nurgles followers all despair, and so they expect absolutely nothing, so everything is amazing and happy for them - they've set their standards for the universe as low as it can go.
It is, it's a weird thing that Games Workshop can change up perfectly good material but insist on enshrining setting dead-ends.
That would be akin Khorne's followings accepting that life is conflict, and thus accepting his blessings stops the conflict. Which is a valid idea but it doesn't really give Nurgle a monopoly on the concept. I rather like the irony approach, that Nurgle's horrid nature lifts despair against the odds, Tzeentch corrodes hope, Slaanesh leaves people miserable and unsatisfied . . . but what about Khorne, hrmm . . . Khorne covers discipline and honour, so perhaps Khorne's endless matters means that insurbordination is never fully punished and slighted honour never rectified? This is a really cool angle, have we stumbled upon some ancient intent for the Chaos powers?
Nurgle grants toness of hope and salvation. Sure, he creates despair-inducing disease but he genuinely loves his followers and they love him back. Tzeentch meanwhile is all about playing people along on strings, tantalising them with power and ploys which they will chase for eternity. There really isn't much of an angle for this. Besides, boners are plainly Slaanesh's domaigne.
If you don't care then you can't despair. Seems self-defeating, which with I am okay if you can find an angle for that being true of all the gods. If the Chaos God of Hope's followings are paranoid and neurotic, while Chaos Despair's are idley satisfied, does that mean Khorne's minions are always stimulated/aroused and Slaanesh's are violently angry/displeased?
I figure they are going for a Buddhist vibe with Nurgle. He does have that big fat meditating Buddah thing going on.
Buddhism is about accepting that suffering is a fundamental part of life brought on by desires and by giving up on those desires you free yourself from suffering. Some Buddisht also belive that you can only reach nirvana through Buddah.
So if you're a Nurgle follower you accept that despair is a part of your life and by giving up on the original life you desired you free yourself from despair. Also, they miht belive that the only way to elevating yourself further from despair is through Nurgle.
>If you don't care then you can't despair.
You obviously havent been depressed and hit rock bottom and then gone lower. Theres a breaking point for people, when you've felt nothing but hopelessness for a long time and depression takes a hold of your core, where nothing matters, not yourself or your problems or others, nothing matters when you're at that point and its then that people kill themselves. Some people can live like that, where they realize that nothing truly matters and everything and everyone will die eventually and theres nothing you can do about your problems so you just give up and live and thats Nurgle, the guy that went through shit and absolute despair and tried to end it but failed miserably so now he laughs at the pointlessness of existence for that is the only thing he can do.
That is very true, I'm surprised Nurgle's appearances as a rotten Buddah isn't brought up more often here or in canon come to think of it.
Those are some mighty assumptions you're making there, anon.
I just found out how much stuff the Taghmata Army List book changed from the previous mashup of HH books and I've been trying to get myself caught up. While it's nice that they did balance and clarify a lot of the outstanding issues I did find one that was a bit confusing.
How do the Machine Creature and Patris Cybernetica rules interact? I can't tell if Machine Creature is saying that if a unit has models with Cybernetica Cortex then it means that unit is never scoring no matter what, or if it means if a unit is composed ONLY of units with Cybernetica Cortex then it's not scoring. Basically, if I stick a Dominus in a unit of robots is the Dominus scoring even though the unit isn't? Or does the unit override the Dominus and make him not count as scoring even though he otherwise would be?
The reason this is odd is because a Legio Cybernetica army can't take any choices without a Cybernetica Cortex until they've taken at least one that does have one in each FOC slot (and their Compulsory Troops must be two units of Castellax with 2+ models in each). Once you look at how many points that costs you suddenly realize that unless you can stick some scoring Dominus dudes in there then your entire army can't score objectives... which is a bit of a problem now that people are often using Maelstrom in 30k. Sure, your entire army is also cool ass MCs, but with the balance changes to Castellax units that's actually not the overpowered cheese it used to be.
I would go with the simplest route and say that the Dominus scores regardless of his unit choice, while the bots surrounding him do not. Forgeworld makes rulesfudge like this all the time, we'll have to wait out for a FAQ.
You have to think of despairing in the context of the opposite of hope, not just "feeling sad". You can despair and be perfectly happy - look at lazy people who do nothing with their lives. They don't have any hope of doing anything, but many come to accept this. This ties into Nurgle as a creature of entropy. Things fall apart. Nurgle wants things to rot, rust, stop moving, stop doing things, just chill. Nurgle's perfect universe would be a contented nothingness. It might be a lunatic happiness, but his followers are happy because of their despair - they've thrown away all their worries and hopes.
As for Khorne and Slaanesh, their dichotomy is one of pain and pleasure, or denial and pleasure. Khorne is similar to Nurgle in that he's about ENDING things, but in a more direct way. Warriors of Khorne usually focus on ignoring the pleasurable or the diverting - they deaden themselves to things like mercy or caring - there is only rage, hate, and martial discipline. Slaanesh constrasts this with being creative and embracing all sorts of emotions and sensations.
In an Age of Darkness game that's true, but if you're playing Maelstrom of War all units are scoring units (and AoD scoring units become ObSec, typically).
I know, but the post was getting wordy enough so I left some details out.
That does allow for some cheap backfield scoring but they're too slow and fragile to actually make it up the board outside the deployment. A couple units of robots with Dominus in them, on the other hand, is a pretty scary threat moving up the battlefield.
This was what I was figuring I'd do; the unit would only count as scoring if the Dominus was within range to score a Maelstrom objective even if a robot in the unit was already closer. This has a similar "feel" at least to how enemies can choose to ignore your HQ if you've got him out front and shoot an MC instead (meaning you can't use your 2+/3++/5+++ HQ with majority T7 to tank incoming fire for the unit - that would be a little broken!).
Well, only the Archmagos Dominus is an IC, the vanilla Dominus is still just a character. Patris Cybernetica allows you to join a unit of MCs "even though this would not usually be allowed" so that allows someone who's not an IC to join a unit... but it doesn't allow him to leave it. So, yes, I could pop out the warlord to score and he'd probably be fine doing that since he's stupidly durable, but it doesn't let me stick the 30k equivalent of a Datasmith in multiple robot squads to make them all scoring.
As a sidenote this also applies to Inar Satarael since he's an MC himself and not an IC (but he does have Patris Cybernetica).
Yup, might as well.
I can understand why they'd want units of only robots not to be scoring, especially given how strong that could be with the previous version of the LC rules. You could take two units of one Castellax as your compulsory, give them Darkfire + ETA, and leave them in your deployment scoring objectives as BS5 T7 W4 3+/5++ 60" motherfuckers for only 120 points each. All the new limitations for the LC - increased point cost, higher minimum unit size, no scoring - seem aimed at that issue in particular.
The problem is that if you're just getting started and are playing around 1500 points (not uncommon given that most people are gonna start using Betrayal at Calth) there's really no room for both the robots and the scoring support. Plus, the whole point of LC used to be running an army made entirely out of robots. That kind of doesn't work without scoring unless you're confident you can table the enemy every game (not likely!).
It's kind of a narrow reading of despair. I mean, you can feel positively at the same time as despair, sure - you can also feel dread mixed with excitement for example. But the way that fluff material treats despair as the central defining emotion of Nurgle, you'd think he'd embody it entirely and more purely, rather than one narrow form it adopts.
I think if Ambition was treat as Tzeentch's central term, and Relief for Nurgle, the concept GW is trying to convey would be more clear. Plus it would be more balanced, as each god would have a term of equal positivity and negativity.
That doesn't sit right with me. Nurgle isn't cruel, he genuinely loves his minions and followers and believes his every plague and pox is a gift, the site of a bloat body with its guts seeping through a foetid gutwall a blessing. He wouldn't say something was a gift or kindness if he didn't mean it, that's deceitful and deceit is Tzeentch's bag. Nothing Tzeentch gives you is ever entirely what you think it is. The followers of Tzeentch all desperately kid themselves that they're playing the smarter, quicker, faster game on all the others, that they're winning out overall at cosmic chess and that letting the daemon convince you to put your name on the dotted line was worth it. It's at least related to Stockholm Syndrome.
He does that actually. Why do you think they think of him of a Grandfather like figure?
He taught a Deathguard captain what pity was by showing him his greatest attraction in his realm. Isha was the attraction, and her crying was what taught the marine pity. Also I think the Liber Chaotica talks about Nurgle and Stockholm Syndrome.
>I like the general theme [...] however I don't get your explanation for why you included it. Nothing about either rule allows increases the volume of fire those units can put out, and while it does allow them too assault afterwards
It doesn't directly increase the amount of fire, but it means that, with an IC, they're able to be used aggressively, moved close, rapid-firing, and also charging, and getting Preferred Enemy in assault. In 40k no-one gets warriors close to enemies except as a byproduct of moving to an objective, in 30k they're used completely differently. So they'll shoot more often over the course of a game. Plus they get more shots per point in a max-size unit, and a max-size unit is very big for something that can do the damage-per-shot that it can (especially with Gauss).
Put another way, in 40k, you'd probably rarely use Rapid Fire (except maybe for overwatch), and if you did, you wouldn't care that you couldn't charge because you wouldn't anyway. In 30k, you will usually move them close, usually Rapid Fire after the first turn or so, and perform a good deal better in combat after you charge, which you will do if you can. Unless you don't have a character, in which case you'll have to use them very defensively because you lose the ability to even overwatch with them.
>tesla-equipped inmortals can anyway and you don't see that happening
I don't actually see Tesla-equipped Immortals ever anymore. Even so, no-one takes them so that they can assault after shooting, but so they can shoot more.
>You mention earlier you want assault to be more than just tarpitting, but that's exactly what charging my 20+ blob of warriors into the enemy would be.
In 40k you'd be right, ATSKNF means you never get to sweep and even when you can, I2 makes it never work anyway. Without ATSKNF and the later ability to shoot (a lot) in place of sweeping advance, the first round is kill-or-be-killed more often than not.
>being limited to warriors and immortals means it probably won't see much use.
The purpose is to encourage Warriors and Immortals, being the first to awaken en mass. This may be less needed than I originally believed, since only troops score in HH so they might see more use just due to that.
>I feel like I'd rather give warriors and immortals a shooty lord or cryptek and keep my melee guys in better bodyguard units like lychguard and praetorians.
Lychguard and Praetorians are already excellent and with more (and larger) infantry units in 30k, they don't need to get much better before they're broken. I tweaked Praetorians a little but mostly for thematic reasons.
>On that note, lychguard not getting touched at all, not even as one of the bodyguard units for a phaeron, is disappointing.
I agree and feel that something should be done, but I'm not sure what. They're pretty finely balanced already, I don't want to upset that. Lychguard in 30k have incredible advantages, their AP2 is at higher Initiative than Terminators who have AP2, and their 3+/5++/5++ (RP) combined with T5 is amazingly resilient against non-AP2 terminators, and S5+2 Armourbane is nuts against armor which is plentiful enough to put them to use after you've crushed your primary target. Conversely, against non-terminators 3+/3++/5++ (RP) and with AP3 and again, T5, is amazing for 25pts and will obliterate any infantry even with a 2+ sergeant. Adding a Warscythe Lord just makes even that tiny speedbump meaningless, for not very many points more. These benefits also exist in 40k, but in 40k Terminators are rarely used and tarpits are prevalent. All configurations powerfuck Mechanicum too.
I agree that they should be added as a legal bodyguard for Phaerons though; that's an oversight which I will fix.
>Anyway, not trying to be overly critical, these are just things that stand out to me as I look at it and debate trying it out with a friend.
No, please be critical. Thanks for the feedback.
Nurgle acts more like a possessive significant other and treats you more like a possession to show off than a person.
>SEE YOU THREE? SEE HOW MY FOLLOWERS LOVE MY PLAGUES?
Something like that.
That's an interesting example. On the one hand, Nurgle genuinely reckons Isha is better off in her current state than otherwise, and wouldn't characterise his treatment of her as cruel. On the other hand, he knows that the DG captain would experience pity after witnessing her. It certainly paints Nurgle as rather shrewd. Is this from a BL novel? I loved Liver Chaotica by the way, I only bought the Nurgle book but it was worth it.
Hmmm. Can Tzeentch care for his underlings? Is that concept relevant to Tzeentch?
That's a cool angle - Nurgle does love his little pets after all. He sees his followers as children which he loves equally, even the sullen ones like the Plaguebearers and Mortarion (more like MOODarion).
Why isn't Nurgle a woman?
That's it, I'm putting my gleaming genitals away. No more after that awful pun.
>That's an interesting example. On the one hand, Nurgle genuinely reckons Isha is better off in her current state than otherwise, and wouldn't characterise his treatment of her as cruel.
She could live with the Laughing God. At least she would be with a friend.
>and wouldn't characterise his treatment of her as cruel. On the other hand, he knows that the DG captain would experience pity after witnessing her
He turned her into a tourist attraction.
>Is this from a BL novel
Short story if I remember right.
>Can Tzeentch care for his underlings?
I think that would be something he'd find hindering to change.
>Why isn't Nurgle a woman?
Because r63 Nurgle is something my mind shouldn't and will not allow to form.
>He sees his followers as children which he loves equally
Nurgle's plagues are his true children; his worshipers are his grandchildren. He is fond of his worshipers only because he is proud of his own accomplishment of raising his actual children well. His worshipers are quaint, nostalgic reminders of his own magnificence; adorable to have around, in their own pet-like way, but not creatures that he truly cares about beyond their proof of the diseases they host having achieved their full potential.
Ah, but the Laughing God reminds Nurgle way too much of a certain someone. A bad influence, full of naughty new ideas and tricks. Nurgle hates subversion even more than Khorne, because it's pure novelty.
A beautiful tourist attraction, where she gets to bask in the admiration of a wonderful and cherishing audience for all eternity. How thoughtful of Nurgle!
Tzeentch's idea of respect is one that can only be satisfied by one with the chutzpah to keep up on and exceed his own sly manouvres. I think then he'd take an interest, the closest he'd get to caring.
You don't even need r34 - Nurgle's already got huge tits! Those antlers are her pigtails.
What do you give your Tactical Squad Sergeants? I'm going to have 3 of them with my Alpha Legion list and I'm not sure whether to leave them naked or give them power fists or other cool toys.
>Ah, but the Laughing God reminds Nurgle way too much of a certain someone. A bad influence, full of naughty new ideas and tricks. Nurgle hates subversion even more than Khorne, because it's pure novelty.
But if Nurgle really loves Isha he should let her be happy.
>A beautiful tourist attraction, where she gets to bask in the admiration of a wonderful and cherishing audience for all eternity. How thoughtful of Nurgle!
I'm sure there has to be a sign that says "Please don't feed the Isha."
>Tzeentch's idea of respect is one that can only be satisfied by one with the chutzpah to keep up on and exceed his own sly manouvres. I think then he'd take an interest, the closest he'd get to caring.
But all are pawns though.
>You don't even need r34 - Nurgle's already got huge tits! Those antlers are her pigtails.
My mind is still blocking that.
>She could live with the Laughing God. At least she would be with a friend.
Cegorach has nothing but scorn for the rest of the Eldar gods. It's possibly true that she might be better off, but he's no friend of hers and never will be. She'd be unable to resist leaving the Webway to contact her mortal children, and would be seized by Slaanesh as soon as she did.
Isha can't change her nature, she's a reflection of an aspect of the Eldar psyche. Her... entanglement with Nurgle reflects the tiny shift in the universal Eldar psyche that knows utter despair as a result of Slaanesh's nigh-unstoppable predation of their souls - before the Fall they knew nothing like it (they could know great despair individually, but it wasn't an inherent part of their racial identity). For her to escape Nurgle without being recaptured by Slaanesh, they'd have to be free of this despair... Ynnead could do it, but he'd destroy her in the process.
>Cegorach has nothing but scorn for the rest of the Eldar gods. It's possibly true that she might be better off, but he's no friend of hers and never will be.
Did he always have that or did the Fall make him have that?
> She'd be unable to resist leaving the Webway to contact her mortal children, and would be seized by Slaanesh as soon as she did.
She was able to talk to them through the Spirit Stones before right?
>but he'd destroy her in the process.
So only Khaine and Cegorach would still be around? Well that's a trio of Gods that would surely by helpful to the racial psyche of the Eldar.
>But if Nurgle really loves Isha he should let her be happy.
But he doesn't really love her in the way that normal, undeluded people understand love. He really loves himself, and sees himself as worthy of having her be his because he did her the favor of "saving" her from Slaanesh. Isha's terror and despair after The Fall is a ridiculous turn-on to Nurgle, and he is driven to "comfort" her as he does for all of his followers. He "loves" her in the way that a guardian rapes children in their care because they confuse their paternal instinct to protect them with affection.
>But he doesn't really love her in the way that normal, undeluded people understand love. He really loves himself, and sees himself as worthy of having her be his because he did her the favor of "saving" her from Slaanesh.
And I was right.
>Isha's terror and despair after The Fall is a ridiculous turn-on to Nurgle, and he is driven to "comfort" her as he does for all of his followers.
>He "loves" her in the way that a guardian rapes children in their care because they confuse their paternal instinct to protect them with affection.
I would be surprised if licked to sample her despair.
>Did he always have that or did the Fall make him have that?
No he was always like that, which is what allowed him to survive The Fall and what allows him to continue to elude Slaanesh even when he leaves the Webway, or when fighting her for the souls of his Harlequins.
His ironic and capricious nature did not strongly resonate with the Eldar psyche which meant he was a very minor god, but also that he was safe(r) from Slaanesh as a result. It's why Harlequins don't need Spirit Stones - they're just not Eldar-ish enough to be found by Slaanesh by default (where Eldar-ish means enough like the type of Eldar that caused The Fall).
>She was able to talk to them through the Spirit Stones before right?
That's where it becomes tricky, and allegory and reality bleed together a bit. Most likely it refers to another kind of "spirit stone" from before the fall, which is now lost to the Eldar (or far too dangerous to use). They didn't need Spirit Stones to save them from Slaanesh before The Fall, and they can only make Spirit Stones now by collecting raw materials from the old Eldar homeworlds in the Eye of Terror.
>So only Khaine and Cegorach would still be around?
No, they'd be dead too. Ynnead is the as-yet-unborn god of the dead and, according to many who believe in it, its ascendance requires the death of all Eldar and therefore any other remaining gods.
>No he was always like that, which is what allowed him to survive The Fall and what allows him to continue to elude Slaanesh even when he leaves the Webway, or when fighting her for the souls of his Harlequins.
>His ironic and capricious nature did not strongly resonate with the Eldar psyche which meant he was a very minor god, but also that he was safe(r) from Slaanesh as a result. It's why Harlequins don't need Spirit Stones - they're just not Eldar-ish enough to be found by Slaanesh by default (where Eldar-ish means enough like the type of Eldar that caused The Fall).
Why did the Old Ones make a god for the Eldar that wouldn't strongly resonate with the Eldar psyche?
>That's where it becomes tricky, and allegory and reality bleed together a bit. Most likely it refers to another kind of "spirit stone" from before the fall, which is now lost to the Eldar (or far too dangerous to use). They didn't need Spirit Stones to save them from Slaanesh before The Fall, and they can only make Spirit Stones now by collecting raw materials from the old Eldar homeworlds in the Eye of Terror.
Didn't Vaul have something to do with this in that Eldar legend?
>No, they'd be dead too. Ynnead is the as-yet-unborn god of the dead and, according to many who believe in it, its ascendance requires the death of all Eldar and therefore any other remaining gods.
But how do the Eldar come back after that?
>Isha's terror and despair after The Fall
To clarify, this is why Nurgle didn't particularly give a damn about Isha before The Fall - this wasn't part of her personality before then. Afterwards though it made him want her for the same reasons he wants his other followers to be the way that they are (so severely desperate and needy that he effectively owns them, body and soul).
RIP 30k Thread
Hello Eldar/Daemon Lore from various sources across the ages including non-canonical sources.
Fine then time to rerail this thread. Let us discuss Grav-Rhinos.
What will the Sisters of Silence be like?
Will they get assault packs?
I still want to know where Emps found so many soulless women.
>Why did the Old Ones make a god for the Eldar that wouldn't strongly resonate with the Eldar psyche?
No real data on that. Possibly he resulted from a specific effort to create (or a natural evolution of) a distinct type of Eldar for particular reasons (their non-Eldarn-ess might be important, depending on certain phases of the War in Heaven). Cegorach features hardly at all in the War in Heaven, and is easily confused with the Deceiver in many accounts - if indeed they're not one and the same, which is as yet neither proven or disproven. There is still an awful lot about the War in Heaven we don't know.
>Didn't Vaul have something to do with this in that Eldar legend?
Yes, and probably the original Eldar world(s) had something equivalent to the Dome of Crystal Seers or whatever, except instead of being an interface to the infinity circuit of the Craftworld, it was for the whole warp. It would be instant damnation to use it now, the only gods you'd meet now would not be ones you'd want to.
>But how do the Eldar come back after that?
The point of Ynnead is not to come back, but to save themselves and their ancestors from the doom of Slaanesh. They can only redeem themselves through death. This is according to those Eldar who believe in Ynnead, he's not even close to widely accepted.
Why do people keep saying this? Guilliman created Imperium Secundus as a contingency plan in the event that Horus had already taken Terra. Guilliman would not have declared Sanguinus to be Emperor if he knew Terra still stood. Anyone who says otherwise is just regurgitating a stupid meme.
It's complicated and there are no good sources one way or the other. They could be living creatures, artificial constructs, the Old ones themselves, psychic manifestations of emotions, true gods, or true myths.
But why didnt he take the fight to Horus? He had 4 legions already and the fucker never went to check on Terra, ever, until the end of the siege when Dorn, Khan and Sangui had already endured the war against 9 legions, why was it that only 3 legions got to the palace? Where was Guilliman when the Emperor needed him? Building his own empire.
Wow, so much skub. Other people (in the HH general) put Scars at the top, Betrayer at the in the middle, Flugrim at the bottle, shit's all over the place.
I have no opinion (since I read none of it due to how amazingly skubby it all is, though I have read BL before
and am thoroughly unimpressed). I stick with rulebook fluff unless I'm doing research.
The same way the Salamanders did on their way home. Or the way the Dark Angels did on the way to save Le Man.
They had to fight their way back and it took them too long was a perfectly good storyline and left plenty of room for good wholesome mass combat in the blazing flames of the not as far future.
Some like it, some hate it, it's a pretty even split between the two, there is no middle ground (except maybe not caring at all), and there is no objective way to say which one is right. Oh, and people will always, always argue about it.
I have started hording conversion stuff for a possible Dark Angels force, question is with no reference to how the different "Wings" function in 30k what would be the best way forward to keep planing for their eventual release
Don't worry there's a lot of each legion. It's just people joining in an being vocal about the flavor of the month.
So ran some numbers on rotors vs calivers. Calivers win everytime against both GEQ and MEQ, no surprise. Then I added shred to the rotors, calivers still won against everything but Solar Auxillia and Grenadiers. T3 and 4+ instead of 5+ so both volkite and deflag didn't pierce armor made the rotors win out.
Rotors need to be free and/or be salvo 4/4 or something. They need serious work.
Right after Isstvan V,but it was mostly the Fists and Raven Guard who got access to them and the Alpha Legion who copied the design.
Most if not all legions got the Beta version though.
>Outcast Dead in Mediocre
> naked khonne marine in prison for months beats up a fully armed custode
>Lunar wolf who dosent say a damn thing, and exists only to be shit tier sequal bait
>a psyker magically serving his own connection with the warp because reasons
>The whole thing with the fucking power katana + artful samurai fucking bull crap
>probably a bunch of other things i forgot
it was a fucking TRAIN WRECK of a book, and it was piss poorly written too. Fuck the Outcast Dead. Fuck it in the ass
Ah but as I said, Nurgle genuinely believes there is no greater kindness to be paid than his grotesque affections. If Isha directly told Nurgle "I'm not happy and I want to be free", he'd assume she's messing around or just doesn't UNDERSTAND.
He's kinda like Chris Chan in that capacity.
Ahhhh, but Pawns can someday become QUEENS. I'm not sure where this is going.
Just don't resist, and let it in. You know Slaanesh would want that. Or would you rather female Khorne?
Given that Cegorah not only survived the fall but continues to elude Slaanesh and organise groups of effective Eldar warriors to this day, I'd say the Laughing God has definitely proven useful as an emergency button. The least Eldary Eldar is the safest from their racial weakness.
Hmmm . . . maybe Salvo 3/5 or 4/5?
Wait, you're talking about Calivers and not Chargers? Surely the fact that Rotors can be moved and shot without BS1 is advantage enough? Whereas the extra range for standing still should count as an advantage against Chargers?
What if went insane and said S2, AP 6, Salvo 6/8?
All the important Undivided characters (Horus, Abaddon, Be'lakor) considered themselves as equals to the Chaos Gods and not their slaves. They (excluding Horus) have the willpower to deny one or all the Chaos Gods in order to further their agendas.
Lorgar is a servile cretin. He doesn't have the willpower to be Undivided. He cannot deny the Chaos Gods or consider himself their equal.
>The point of Ynnead is not to come back, but to save themselves and their ancestors from the doom of Slaanesh. They can only redeem themselves through death. This is according to those Eldar who believe in Ynnead, he's not even close to widely accepted.
Not part of the argument but I gotta say that is wrong.
The Iyanden supplement, The murder clown codex, Valedor, and tons of Eldar sources claim that Ynnead will rebirth the Eldar race and their gods.
Autoguns have no AP, it's just a smaller, sharper bullet with a bigger cartridge.
There are lots of reason a unit might want to move, such as beating back from an encroaching assault unit. Ranges less than 48" aren't in the safe-zone for "if you deployed them well, they'll have targets".
That being said alpha is the first, and omega is the last. Sigma is an arbitrary number in the middle. However it is commonly used in maths to represent the sum of, so heres hoping for both primarch combining into voltron.
>Autoguns have no AP, it's just a smaller, sharper bullet with a bigger cartridge.
AP6 might as well not exist. Heavy stubbers get AP6 and they're S4. So S2 is worthless.
>There are lots of reason a unit might want to move
The fact remaind that Calivers are way better than rotor cannons. You're free to take them and prove us all wrong, but I doubt you'll be able to.
I guess this is as good an argument for including more 6+ saves in the setting as any really. Or changing how AP and saves work altogether.
Rotor cannons probably come out worse in game, but we don't know that until it's been tested. Have you tried using both weapons on the tabletop? The range factor remains untested. My bet is that it isn't enough to redeem its weakness, but I'd like to see that proven.
For what we know, the most played are almost certainly Iron Warriors, followed very closely by Alpha Legion, and then Imperial Fists and Emperor's Children.
Things are going to change as soon as the Thousand Sons arrived.
They are BY FAR the most beloved legion.
he's very good, with T5 and EW in an environment where the only other EW are LoWs.he is also a VERY potent psyker, in a setting with only a handful of good psykers.
the above and invisablity all day erry day
Power daggers are great because they are the cheapest specialist weapon in the game and so grant +1A when paired with another specialist weapon like a power fist (or lightning claw/thunder hammer)
Also Deredeo dreads a cute. CUTE
Novamarines, and Excoriators show up in their early forms. Nova Company, and its first chapter master are in Pharos. And some of the Dorn and Garro stories have Katafalque as Dorns messenger. He goes on to the be the CM of the Excoriators.
I do hear a lot about Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion, as well as Imperial Fists. Surprised about Emperor's Children, but I guess their colour scheme is too swag to pass up.
What legions don't you see a lot of?
My local group has every Legion/Army except Raven Guard and SoH at the moment. A Salamanders player is working on RG right now though and a DG player is working on SoH.
Death Guard is the most popular with 3 players doing Death Guard.
I have a question on Mor Dreythan strike Squads.
Namely, how do they assemble?
I have 10 Mor Deythan coming in the mail, but I don't know how they will go together, and I want to magnetize them.
I plan to have them all be able to swap between Sniper Rifles and Combi-Flamers at will, and have 3 of them be able to swap to Missile Launchers as well.
I have 10 of the older FW combiflamers (without attached hands), Will those work for the combis? Or are Mor Deythan sniper rifles part of their hands?
And for the Missile Launchers, how the fuck would I go about doing those? Any suggestions?
Well I have a full terminator squad with some chain fists mixed in that are sitting in the storm eagle so popping that should be possible, I just didn't include them as dedicated AV so to speak
Perturabo was sponsored by nurgle - possible link with obliterate virus as his special ala plague marines / berserker / sonic / sorcerer
Lorgar is the one they have left in the air - the word bearers trilogy didn't really show much of their new home world but I get the impression Lorgar hasn't ascended and is more like abandon or holding in the power
A reference in Codex: CSM 6th ed where he invokes Nurgle to bring a plague down on a forge world. Though technically I would see Lorgar, or really any undivided chaos worshiper that's strong enough to do the same.
Well, I'd test out the full terminator unit first and see if that works for you. In my 3k list I have Perty with 10 Tyrant Sieges so I don't have much experiences with regular Terminators as my AT. But with my Perty+TS unit I've reliably been able to take out 1 Knight Titan per turn. But I have a Medusa as well just in case.
? Was t it only 5 traitor legions on terra - the 4 daemons and horus?
Also the ruin storm cut off all communication and travel - they lost dozens of ships before seconding not to risk it anymore
In the original story though things were a lot tighter in terms of timeline - ultras hear about the heresy and are in the way but will take time so Horus rushed to attack
But then you couldn't drag it out for shekels
Btw deathfire was GOAT
I have decided on the XIXth legion but I could use a little help on my list. I'm not looking for an ultra optimized list tho.
- (1) Damocles Command Rhino
- (1) Centurion, Primus Medicae, artificer armor, boarding shield, melta bomb, cameleoline.
- (17) Legion Tactical, +7 marines, melta bomb on serg.
- (10) Legion Tactical, melta bomb on serg, rhino.
- (5) Legion Terminator, 5 combi-weapon, 3 chainfist.
- (8) Mor Deythan, +3 Mor Deythan, 8 combi-weapon
- (5) Dark Fury, melta bomb on Slaine
- (1) Primaris Lightning, 4 kraken penetrator, tank hunter, strafing run.
- (1) Darkwing (dedicated transport for terminator)
- (1) Darkwing
- (1) Corax
I really wanted to play Alvarex Maun but I loose his warlord trait if I play Corax.
Questions : will I be table turn1 ? Do I have to specify what type for combi I choose on my list (like 40k) ?
Darkwings are really bad
Tabling is a serious concern for this list.
You still need to specify the combi, and it should be modeled that way.
No. Z's casts look like garbage anyways.
It 0-1 for every one and no limit for ultra no?
I know they are expensive but I really like the concept. Plus drop pod looks way too fragile for KP games. What could I add to prevent tabling T1 ?
And the thousand sons led by Ahriman plus demon & Admech support.
Was looking to try and start a Legio Cybernetica Army, would the cybernetica battlegroup along with the taghmata book with the priest and servo automata a good start? Also what would I possibly be looking for when bumping it up to 2k? Probrably more robots just not entirely sure on which ones.
It's not bad, you would have your two compulsory Castellax troop choices and your first Cortex Heavy Support choice to unlock further heavy support. The Thallax are so-so, since they're all lightning gun versions, I'd run them as Ferrox w/Melta Bombs as a Deep striking anti-armor unit. I'd probably get a large unit Tech-Thralls instead of the Thallax though.
>Poison aren't worth it
Indeed. The only big things are automata, which youu have to reroll successful poison against anyway and are better of using AT.
For the militia list it's not bad since rotors compete less.
The problem is that volkite pierces, deflags, and squishes tiny things enmassse. Like they're supposed to. If you just jack up rotors you have to be careful that you don't eclipse volkites. Volkites do have a higher strength so more shots at the lower strength might push volkites towards the big unarmoured beasts of the crusade buuuuut then whats the point during the heresy?
On the move rotors have 15" range and 3 shots. A few more inches than flamers, but they have AP5, can hit more things, is an assault weapon, and ignores cover.
Vs calivers, because you're going to avoid moving with rotors to maximize on their purpose. Losing range and one shot is a big hit for a low S weapon that you don't want to be close with. Salvo is just to make it hurt less when moving than heavy. And calivers are so much better it's worth it.
Potent psyker that can just take invisibility. Invisible knights, spartans, primarch and crews etc is something no 30k army can deal with.
The Darkwing is fine if you're grabbing it as a transport for a unit that normally doesn't get a flyer to save on FA slots.
Mor Deythan love rhinos to infiltrate in it, scout 12, disembark 6, and fatal strike something.
If you have the tacs, mor deythan, rhino, maybe corax separately from furies, you should ahve to worry about being tabled if youre not facing a cut throat list.
yeah, Decapitation strike looks great with (otherwise) suicidal scouting.
Can't I infiltrate, scout 12, move 6, disembark 6 and fatal strike? (and yes I know I can infiltrate at 18)
Oh two characters with the same title. Neat.
>Can't I infiltrate, scout 12, move 6, disembark 6 and fatal strike? (and yes I know I can infiltrate at 18)
>Mor Deythan love rhinos to infiltrate in it, scout 12, disembark 6, and fatal strike something.
So, I'm pretty new to Warhammer 40k/HH, and just started an Imperial Fists army, but I have a question for the Lore Masters here.
I read that the 2nd Company Captain, Camba Diaz was like a buddy cop with Sigismund, and he went to Mars with Sigismund during the Schism of Mars.
Did he die on Mars? I only ask because I know Sigismund went on to Found the Black Templars and Alexis went on to form the Crimson Fists, but nothing is mentioned of Diaz founding a Chapter. I think the only other 2nd Founding Chapter was the Soul Drinkers but I don't think they ever mention who founded them.
>I only ask because I know Sigismund went on to Found the Black Templars and Alexis went on to form the Crimson Fists, but nothing is mentioned of Diaz founding a Chapter.
There are countless second founding chapters that we know nothing of, Diaz could've stayed with Dorn or founded his own chapter, who knows.
As far as canon goes there are 3 second founding chapters, the excoriators, the black templars and the crimson fists, you can make your own if you want.
For whatever reason I want to think this guy kept rising in ranks and eventually got the rights to found his own chapter either by the second or third founding, its something him being given the honour of marking his armor with his personal heraldry that makes me want that.
I like how people constantly cling to that line about Belakor being the only Undivided Daemon Prince, like it couldn't be a stupid error that will easily be run roughshod over for characters like Lorgar and Perturabo who are more important to 40k.
The reason Undivided Daemon Princes as a general option ultimately don't make sense is because daemonhood is the boon of the gods, gods who are said to rarely all come to the same agreement. This gives Undivided Daemon Princes a certain mystique that should be reserved for special characters, not something that is handed out for a set of points and taken because it's the best or most convenient option.
no, the terminator praetor deathball still goes in the storm eagle, something not quite as killy bu still dangerous goes in the Spartan
change it up each game to keep them on their toes.
templar brethren upgrade pack or for something less fisty go for the grey knight pack, take the helmets and the swords (5 helmets, 5 left sword, 5 right sword) and bitz-buy/go 3rd party for shields, if you want them...
Fuck your mystery shit.
In my day Undivided princes were the weakest, since they didn't get the full backing of a single deity and was just fed on the scraps, and the road to becoming an undivided prince was hard, because you had to do deeds that pleased them all, but the reward was independence. What you said about gods not being good at working together is EXACTLY why you need undivided princes, because the idea of a bloodletters serving a keeper of secrets or or plaguebearers fighting under the banner of a lord of change is retarded. Undivided princes have no allegiance and thus make the perfect general for a multi-god army. They can be impartial and all the gods can give their daemons to them to command without having to worry about stuff.
The likes of Abaddon and Be'lakor is not Undivided, it's Descendant. They don't have no marks, they have all the marks. They have the full support of all the gods with all the gifts that come with it.
>Love Alpha Legion since getting into the hobby in 5th edition
>Dose serpent motifs
>Dat unique scaled green pattern on blue
>Pirate the FW HH books a year or more ago, peruse for shits and gigs, fantasize about starting various Legion armies
>Alpha Legion looks even cooler
>Dat lustrous metallic blue-green
>DOSE EVEN BETTER SERPENT IMAGERIES
>Paint up a couple of the sample Marine 3-packs trying to figure out how I would do their colours if I ever started HH
>Years to months later BaC comes out
>Now my beloved sneaky snakey Alphas are flavour of the month and the army of choice for WAAC fags and people who don't care about flavour
>I will doubtless be accused of WAAC FOTM faggotry when talking about my plans for my Alpha Legion
Every legion had a time of being the flavor. And AL requiring some smarts helps. The only WAACY legion was Word Bearers led by TransLorgar before his nerf. Sure AL are good, they but don't have a win-button.
I know the feel though. I started making a wraithghost army right before the 6th Ed Eldar codex. It never saw play and it still in pieces.
Then I though, Corsairs! That didnt last.
>Any daemon prince is a big shot by default
In a universe of big shots where special characters are higher on the food chain.
>GW should let me forge my own narrative.
Your narrative doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Why in the hell would any of the gods want independent servants? Belekor's entire story is that he showed the Chaos gods why all of them favoring one being over another was a bad thing. It is also completely gets rid of the grand irony of daemonhood, for all the power and the immortality you're still a slave to an entity who can make or break you and there is nothing you can do about it.
The point about daemons serving under an enemy general is a decent one, but you could argue that the daemons are not really taking orders so much as they're attacking at the same time or piggybacking on the efforts of another.
Chaos in 40k has also slowly become more and more about the four gods bar a few exceptions like the Forge of Souls. There is really no one else to grant daemonhood.
IH were popular sure, they were easy to use and lists built themselves, but not invisibleprimarchunbeatable. IW are far from WAAC. They don't suck, but they aren't stellar either.
>Why in the hell would any of the gods want independent servants?
Why in the hell would any of the gods place their daemons under the command of another god's daemon?
>Belekor's entire story is that he showed the Chaos gods why all of them favoring one being over another was a bad thing.
Don't bring that crap into this. The fact that even GW can't explain how the gods are unable to take away their gifts from him (like they can with everyone else) or even if he's free of the will of the gods or secretly still a slave and the gods merely give him a really long leash.
>grand irony of daemonhood
If you can't see the drawbacks of being undivided, I can't help you. But it was the case for decades before Be'lakor the not 3e C'tan showed up. Can't wait for him to get sharded.
>you could argue that the daemons are not really taking orders so much as they're attacking at the same time or piggybacking on the efforts of another.
Could, but that's not how it goes down. You have fluff pieces of Tzeentch daemons opening up portals to let Khorne daemons storm enemy lines and shit like that. Clearly deliberate, planned operations with daemons following the command of daemons of another god.
>There is really no one else to grant daemonhood.
There never has been and yet Undivided was not a problem.
>In a universe of big shots where special characters are higher on the food chain.
Yes, on top of your mook undivided princes you have named princes who are way more powerful.
You might as well argue that there are no other Khorne princes than Angron, because they'd cheapen what it means to be a Khorne DP.
>Your narrative doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Then maybe GW should stop forging it and putting in set options.
looking for help making my DG list, I want to include Calas Typhon due to him being one of my favorite characters and I was wondering how I should build my army around him, was thinking of giving him a squad of death shroud and putting him in a spartan backed up by tac squads, heavy support, a siege breaker with some medusa and a leviathan dreadnought with grav flux bombard
Tech-Thralls are pretty expensive in the dollars-to-points department but you kinda need them for scoring. Thallax are way more efficient in dollars but not nearly as efficient on the tabletop, but if you're looking to get a decent deal that bundle's pretty solid (personally not a fan of the power blade/MM models but eh).
Either way, LC can't simply spam Castellax troops anymore now that none of the robots count as scoring units even if they're troops. It's not a terrible compromise when you consider that you can actually use the Cortica Primus relic and that all your robots get +1 initiative; it's just enough that you can hit either at the same step or even before marines without needing to use Rite of Celerity.
Basically, your robots are a little more expensive but super killy, but killing is really all they do. Tech-Thralls work nicely for scoring since they're so few points that you can fit a lot of them into an otherwise robot heavy list without sacrificing much other than your wallet.
As for anything else you might want I'd think about picking up a couple of Darkfire Castellax for ranged support/rhino plinking and at least three Vorax if not enough for a full five. Vorax got a lot of little buffs in the army list book that when combined with the LC initiative bonus make them one of the best assault units in the game for their cost - seriously, compare five Vorax with frag grenades to a ten man unit of unique terminators and it's scary how easily they'd butcher them in assault. Use Cortica Primus to give them all +2 attacks (with 24" range for powers in LC you don't even need to be in the unit!) and they get downright stupid.
>Tech-Thralls are pretty expensive in the dollars-to-points department
Plastic skitarii look better and are way cheaper. It's a win-win.
>Vorax got a lot of little buffs in the army list book
Do tell. Or is there a link to a file of it yet?
>Do tell. Or is there a link to a file of it yet?
I got a scan from a torrent that shouldn't be hard to find. They got their WS increased to 4, power blades were clarified (yes, they DO give +1 attack and that IS the entire point) making Vorax 3 attacks base for sure, and their cost was dropped by ten points to 65 (70 with the mandatory frag grenades). They also got the option for a unit to buy bio-corrosive ammo (10 ppm, entire unit must buy it) which halves their rotor range but gives them poison 4+; probably not worth it against marines but against other robots that's actually a pretty sexy upgrade give how many shots they have.
I like all the fancy crap such as volkite, conversion beamers, lasers and so on and will be building an army without bolters. Sons of Horus are my best bet, but I'm open to suggestions.
I'm sure Dark Angels will have a plenty of those.
The LC changes are also significant. Dominus can be attached to robots again, Archmagos Dominus is an IC (meaning he can take relics) and got a 2+ save, although their invuln save items, sidearms and power weapons are no longer optional and are part of the cost of the HQ now. The one big thing that's not on this page is that the Cybernetica Cortex rule had the Machine Creature sub-rule added that basically means robots are never allowed to score; whether or not an attached HQ would score is ambiguous (only in Maelstrom since in AoD HQs also aren't scoring).
The +1 initiative thing doesn't sound like much until you take it into context and then it's actually amazing. Castellas are I3 and Vorax I4, which means they'd strike after or at the same time as marines (and, let's be honest, we're almost always talking about I4 marines in HH). +1 means Castellax get all their attacks off even if a bunch of bastards with melta bombs do a number on them and Vorax get to cripple or just flat out delete entire units before they get a chance to do anything. Plus, now that you can actually use the Cortica Primus you can always bump them up even higher to the point that Vorax swing before half the primarchs.
There's some downers; Castellax were increased by 20 ppm (85 to 105), but pretty much everyone agreed that needed to happen. I think the standard Thanatar also got a small points increase, but only like 5 or 10 if that. There's a ton of other little changes in the book as a whole and it really ties the Mechanicum together as a whole. There's a TON of viable ways to build a Mechanicum army now without ever considering Legion allies.
They are elites unless taken with the Rite, same as with Reavers, except Reavers and the Black Reaving are more flexible, which is a big factor for me.
I agree, but I like marines more.
>I agree, but I like marines more.
Fair enough. Iron Hands get Medusan Immortals for full Volkite breacher teams with built in FNP, but you can't take them as troops. Obviously steer clear of Fists since they're all about bolters. To be honest I've only fully read about half the legions so I'll have to get back to you on it.
No, the mortar is still Ordnance, so if you fire it then he can't use his TL mauler (only vehicles get to snap fire other weapons, other unit types don't even get to shoot them).
On the bright side there's the Thanatar Cynis, although he doesn't have a model yet. My money's on FW showing a preview of him at the FW Open next month.
Don't forget he has two of those plasma guns, so that's four S8 plasma cannon shots (and his mauler if he's outside controller range, and since he can't run anyway he should be). Bait the enemy into assaulting him with an expensive unit like unique terminators after he blows up something equally expensive, then cast the Rite of Dread Castigation and one shot them all with a S8 AP2 Large Blast they can't take cover from since they're literally right next to him.
Yeah, it's annoying but it is what it is. At least Ordnance makes it better at also killing vehicles. With PoM + ETA a standard Thanatar comes to 300 points now, whereas a Cynis is 290 with ETA and no PoM (it's either going to be advancing next to your army or you're trying to keep it in programmed mode so you don't want PoM); at this point I'm just gonna wait for a Cynis model since it's just flat out better at blowing up vehicles and deleting elite infantry. The 18" range is kind of short, but it shouldn't be hard to get him a target by second turn.
Corax and the Ravens are out, along with the HH Masterclass.
Given that LCs always cost the same as Power Fists in 30K and are largely redundant with Daggers, it'll almost certainly be a Fist or variant.
Knife-Fist is one hell of a combo. Two options, both with dual-wield bonus and the ability to penetrate all armour, is pretty special by any army's standards, and it costs 10-25pts depending on the model and armour type.
Honestly the Rotor Cannon question is so easily resolved by reducing the cost to free, but we're all trying to find a way to resolve this without altering costs as FW will be doing in the upcoming rebalances. We've tried out all of Poison, Shred, extra shots and extra range and none of them quite works. What else is left to try?
Flat extra S or AP?
An alternative firemode like Rapid Fire, or 18" Assault 2?
Pinning? *stunned silence*
Some other Ld effect?
Each of these is either OP, irrelevant, makes little sense fluffwise or steps on the toes of another solution (flamers, volkites, HBs). What unique niche SHOULD rotors fulfill?
>without altering costs as FW will be doing in the upcoming rebalances
I doubt that's true after reading the new Mechanicum red book. I bet it was on off-hand comment that got over-propagated.
Really it's just making them free for support squads. Volkites cost more points because they're better and harder to make. Rotors aren't anything fancy by comparison. Adjusting them rules-wise makes them acceptable for Astarte's but makes them hugely better for their human counterparts.
Unless they go the path of Astartes-Pattern.
>The forebear of the later assault cannon, the Rotor Cannon was a multi barrelled stubber that could sustain an extraordinary rate of fire. Whilst lacking the power of bolt shells, the hail of fire produced by the rotor cannon could make short work of enemy hordes. Simpler to produce than most heavy weaponry, Rotor Cannon found use in many Legion Tactical Support squads.
Then I would still make it free, but add more shots and make it salvo 4/5 or straight assault 4 with an alternate heavy 6 fire-mode. Then it's niche would be cheap mobile fire support. Volkites will pierce and do more wounds but cost more. While the rotors are a cheap alternative to 'rack up' numbers. Then flamers which will hit about the same, but at less range, better AP, and Ignores Cover.
50 rotor shots vs GEQ nets 11 dead.
60 rotor shots vs GEQ nets 13 dead.
But you can move.
VS 5 points more(than free):
20 Caliver shots vs GEQ nets 20 dead.
Actually free with shred makes them decent. Just makes them a cheaper, slightly less potent option than volkite. Instead of almost strictly worse for the exact same cost.
What new book? We're talking about the books that are yet to come out. The Mechanicum books were a recollection, reformation and rebalancing of the previous material; after that, Forgeworld has stated they're happy with the prices and just want to make units more effective to reflect the costs. I like this idea but I have concerns that certain options like RCs, or bizarrely-priced units like Justaerin, are unfixable in this manner and simply need points adjustment.
Basically, to answer my own question, the unique niche they fulfil is the dirt cheap option without being bolters.
A bold and pervasive truism if I ever witnessed one.
Actually, come to think of it - if Rotor Cannons were free, how would a 10-strong Support squad shape up against the equivalent in Bolter Tacticals?
So static Rotors score more wounds than Bolters in rapid fire range, or FotL at long range. So far not bad for 25pts, especially when regular long range will only rack up 3.3r from Bolters. Let's check moving Rotors:
That's now even. Consider than a moving RC unit has only 15" range, while the bolter unit can shoot a further 9" and costs 25pts less; the RC unit is only getting value if it stays still as much as possible.
BUT! There's Fury of the Legion, while allows an optimally-positioned unit of Bolter Tacs to unload 40 shots into a target at only 10-strong. That's 13.3 wounds, aka not bad at all. So it's arguable if Rotor Cannons are even worthwhile free without an upgrade like Shred.
We haven't even looked at 5+ save units, who are further tougher against Rotors than Bolters. This whole gun a mess.
New FAQ /errata up : http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Horus_Heresy_7th_Edition.pdf
Dreadnoughts get there 3 attacks base , Knights get 40k Warden options and other cool stuff.
Could Tartaros terminators sweeping advance before? A pretty massive update if not.