L5R General

Best:earth
Worst:water

>>44592775
>implying

>>44591887
Each element is pretty great. Fire can make fire and murder people easily, Water lets you heal people and do-rerolls, Air lets you do illusions and a few other useful things...but Earth just lets you stop other people from doing stuff. Earth's probably my least favourite, even if it's useful. I want to do stuff, not prevent stuff.

Best: Void. You can do practically anything.
Worst: Fire. You can burn stuff, good for you.

why the fuck are tattooed monks so fucking broken?

>>44597056
How are they broken? They're shit.

>>44597056
Magical tattoo bullshit.

>>44591887
Void is objectively the best element. That's not even a matter of opinion, Void spells are mechanically insanely high powered for their mastery levels and with the right spell selection you can effectively emulate everything all the other elements can do anyway.

>>44597282
Yeah - like being able to appear slightly less autistic even though you're an ishiken.

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>TFW Atlas of Rokugan PDF never

>>44591887

Water has the coolest spells, but raising your water ring is sort of dopey. If you have a high Air ring you can just fuck bitches and not get hit all day erry day.

>>44597408
I ended up ordering it off Amazon.

>>44598498
That's not an option where I live, and having it imported will cost almost double the book does.

>>44598548
Damn dude, I'm legitimately sorry.

im having a problem challenging my players. how many enemies would be a good challenge for a 50 XP party of 4?

>>44598658
Assuming rank 1 NPCs, probably two per PC if they're combat focused. You want to be careful about challenging PCs by outnumbering them because that exponentially increases the chances of putting them into a death spiral through wound penalties and random exploding dice.

>>44598744
I've done that and I donno if I just have shit luck with mooks or what but they barely did anything. I've even tried 3 goblins per player and an ogre but that didn't work terribly well. Am I missing something?

>>44598780
Couldn't tell you without specific examples. Walk us through a combat, mechanically.

>>44598865
Basically the mooks miss way more often then they hit (the party's to hit TN is pretty high even for 5k2 or 6k3), and because they don't get hit they kill the mooks pretty hard.

>>44598979
What are the PCs to hit TNs and where are the numbers coming from?

>>44599084
Armor TN formula is 5+(5*Reflex)+Armor Bonus From Armor right? So I believe everyone is at least 3 reflexes, which puts their armor up to 25 base. 30 for the heavy armored one.

>>44599115
Have enemies fight smarter, remember the Full Attack Stance is a thing, and fudge a die exploding once in a while to keep things exciting?

>>44599199
>fudge a die exploding once in a while to keep things exciting?
This. I flat out bullshit half of my rolls at lower IR. One of the benefits to running online is that you don't even need a poker face.

Air is the best element because you can stack Air without being called out for powergaming.

>>44601910
You really can't Air is the power ring.

>>44599199
I had a moment in my last session of L5R that made some interesting interactions.

Three samurai (2 IR 1 samurai and one IR 3 NPC) vs one IR ??? boss, two dogs, and one IR ??? pikeman. The shugenja managed to Earth's Stagnation the pikeman, one dog, and the boss. This jacked their stats to the point where they really needed to Full Attack to hit either of the bushi. Even then, the IR 3 guy nearly died.

tl;dr use attack dogs they're nasty I guess

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Which is the lewdest clan?

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>>44602981
Either the chick in the middle is some kind of giant, or the two side chicks are fucking tiny.

Either way, Genzoman was the worst thing to happen to L5R art since whoever drew pic related.

>>44602981
Lewd? Scorpion, sex appeal is their thing.

Freakiest? Lion, getting wound up that tight must make them crazy in the sack.

>>44603014
>I have no nose and I must sneeze

>>44603049
I bet you Matsu girls are just animals.
Remember how in the 1e core book the example of a samurai using Honor to resist a seduction attempt was against a Lion samurai-ko?

>>44602981
True Ikoma are all about whoring, drinking and more whoring.
Bayushi act like whores for appearances even though they secretly might not be into it.
Chuda are into NTR big time.
Kasuga get paid to research the Kama Sutra.

But the biggest sluts of all are the Otomo. Their entire duty is to be better than you and to stir shit up, and the best way to do both is to fuck your bitches.

>>44603014
>>44603416
Nigga looks like a Michael Bay ninja turtle drawn by Rob Liefield.

>>44603626
>True Ikoma are all about whoring, drinking and more whoring.

Unless they're that kind of Ikoma that spends all of it's time making sure things work out for the Lion in court and doing things Akodo don't have the stomach for and Matsu don't have the subtly or intelligence for.

>>44603836
Yeah, whilst the TRUE Ikoma are whoring.

>>44603852
Pfft. You can do both easily enough.
Actually, doing one probably makes the other easier; if everyone thinks you're an honorless dog and nobody takes you seriously then nobody will think you're that OTHER kind of honorless dog that you should be paying more attention to.

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>>44602981

The naga

>>44603902

I mean, they don't even wear pants...

>>44603943
What just cause they don't wear pants means they want your gross non snake dingus?

>>44604128

It would facilitate matters but not everything is about ME, anon...

>>44603014
>Either the chick in the middle is some kind of giant, or the two side chicks are fucking tiny.

Slutty mom is teaching her horny young daughters how to be a slut.

>>44597056
The only thing approaching broken is centipede.

>>44603836
>>44603852
>>44603872

>tfw I played the most lewd, drunk, disreputable and generally shitty Ikoma samurai ever
>tfw its all an act, he's actually Ikoma Shadow
>tfw due to court shenanigans his cousin gets into a conflict with the crane and he steps up to plate to duel
>tfw the crane smugly gets to the duel, accurately assesses me, and shits himself

In short, properly played, Ikoma Shadows are some of the most fun you can have at L5R

>>44605157
Once played an Ikoma Shadow heavily inspired by Yagyu Jubei Mistuyoshi.
Like the Futaro Yamada version he was still a samurai, he just had ninja skills.

I'm going to be running a one-shot for a couple of guys who are somewhat familiar with L5R as a card game but never played the RPG

Does anyone have any advice?

>>44605582
Carry jade on you at all times to avoid the curse. I don't mean in character, either, I mean you as the gm should have a green rock in your pocket. L5r games have been plagued by misfortune around here.

>>44605650
oh... great

>>44605582
Look farther up the thread, you'll find some great GMing advice.
No sense in rehashing the same, since it's just as good as anything anyone else could say.

I wish they'd held off selling the entire IP until after the Atlas had circulated.

To keep discussion going, in a group of samurai, which 4 clans together would get along the least?

>>44610095
Crane/Lion/Crab/Scorpion

If we' just going off of stereotypes.

>>44610095
Basically what >>44610129 said.
If we're throwing shuggies into the mix, then it's Phoenix/Crab/Unicorn/Lion, since the Phoenix will piss off the rest by being smugly superior, the rest will piss off the Phoenix by being somewhat unorthodox in their methods, the Crab will be paranoid towards everything the others do, and the Lion will get pissed at the dirty Gaijin techniques of the Unicorn.

>>44610095
Scorpion. Just scorpions.

>>44610361
And the Unicorn will be annoyed by the others constantly undermining everything he does because he does it "wrong".

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Hypothetical court scenario #2:

You're a Scorpion courtier messing about doing nothing (too) underhanded (for now). In the middle of a conversation with another courtier from a different Clan, they rip your mask from your face.

What is the proper response, immediately and in the future?

>>44610598
Was this in public?
Who are they and how well do I know them?

>>44610598
Rip off their clothes. Eye for an eye and all that.

>>44610598
The proper response is to immediately and vehemently call a duel for their blatant disrespect of the traditions of my clan, family, and ancestors, and for their unsolicited and crude physical contact.
The correct response depends on other factors, like who else saw that happen, and what I'm trying to get out of them.

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>>44610598
Court Scenario #2.5:

It's in public, and you only know them in passing (that is, no blackmail (yet)).

>>44610840
Challenge them to a duel, and then send assassins in the night.

>>44610840
Challenge them to a duel, and then, regardless of the outcome, make their life a living hell by informing every Scorpion they ever come into contact with about what they did. I want them staying up at night to "catch" agents that only come around to keep them paranoid and afraid. And then, when they finally give up on ever actually stopping the guys who skulk around them at night, have them killed in their sleep.

>>44610598
So who is this person who ripped of my mask, exactly? Are they drunk? What do they hope to gain from this pretty serious breach of etiquette?

>>44610906
I support that course of action.
Also plant forged letter near to his body that will 1)make it look like a suicide 2)advance your ongoing plots 3)give you fame and honor

>>44610840
Still not enough information. Depending on who they are and their standing they could have just singed themselves up for a lifetime of servitude.

>>44610906
>>44611240
This is the later storyteam's version of the Scorpion.
Ninja assassins and poison are an extremely final option for any Bayushi worth his mask, indeed they may not even know that they have such options available to them.

>>44611332
The fucker just ripped off our mask, though. That jeopardizes our entire identity and utility to the clan, plus it's one of the worst insults possibles. Killing him in a duel would be too much honor for him.
And we have to dishonor him, so people remember that fucking with the Scorpion never goes unpunished.
Just go in his room and use a rope to strangle him. Then put the letter.
Or pay a few drunkards to kill him when he goes into town. Then put incriminating papers on his corpse.

New scenario:
A member of the Boar clan remnants from the Lair is traveling disguised as a ronin, when he meets a samurai claiming to be of the newly reviewed Boar clan. What would he do?

>>44611997
Step 1: Ascertain whether the person really is from a Boar clan and not just a liar or insane
Step 2: Try to befriend this new Boar Clan and figure out what ties, if any, it has to the original Boar Clan.
After that, it's up in the air whether they scurry back to the Lair to report on this strange series of events or reveal themselves to the new Boar to drum up support for the original Boar. Diplomats may be sent one way or the other, but the Lair probably won't open itself to the entirety of the Empire in any case.

>>44611997
Investigate and find out the origins of the new Boar Clan. If they can at least ascertain that the Clan Champion has Boar Clan ancestry, then it's probable that the Lair Boar will report back to the Jomei and diplomacy may begin.

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>>44610840
Publicly assaulted me?
...
I'm certain the hosting Daimyo doesn't want word to spread that such flagrant abuses happen under his care.
I'm certain he cannot let the insult of someone violating his hospitality to attack one of his guests to stand.
I will certainly continue to note that our host was as fast as Lightning in redressing this wrong (so long as he is useful to us).

>>44611997
Observe, investigate, then either associate with and befriend before reporting back, or avoid like the plague and pray the villain dies quietly.

>>44608673
Just got it in the mail today.

>>44614092
It gud?
Have they finally made a map that makes sense?

>>44615293
It's pretty good, does a breakdown of individual provinces controlled by which families, which is pretty cool.
Also? It reveals Rokugan SMALL.
Like, really small; 900 miles long and around 500 to 600 miles wide, and it comparatively says that Japan is 2000 miles, with China being much larger.

The Rokugani inhabit and infantesimal part of their entire world as it turns out.

>>44617267
I'm calling bullshit on that.

Not saying you're wrong about what the book says, just saying whoever wrote that is fucking retarded.

>>44617267
I refuse to believe that

Rokugan's varied environs are too close together on the map for the entire place to be only 900 miles long

>>44617267
That's about half as long, but significantly more than three times as wide as Japan at its widest point (Which is wider than the rest of Japan, obviously).

>>44617267
That's not that small. That's bigger than Texas but smaller than Alaska.

>>44617872
Actually, looking up some stuff, the main island of Japan (Honshu) is 810 miles long, so Rokugan is about right in length if you ignore the outlying islands. Width is still way wider, but it's also part of a mainland, rather than an island.

So basically, Rokugan isn't unreasonably sized, it just suffers from fantasy map syndrome regarding its climate and biomes.

>>44617267
Assuming roughly 800 by 500, that's (very roughly) 400,000mi2. That's not small. And that's lowballing it.
Japan is 145,925 mi2
South Korea is a measely 38,691 mi2
China is a whopping 3.705 million mi2

>>44617794
Yeah, it's kinda weird.
>>44617810
That's what I thought.
Also; though the estimated population isn't mentioned, the population and the largest cities and the occasionally mentioned numbers of samurai suggest that Rokugan's population is nearly as much as Japan. The alone can potentially muster 100k, which is enough to nearly consist of an entire side of one of the largest battles pre-modern Japan ever had.
>>44617872
It IS on the mainland.
>>44617957
It's still smaller then I thought.

>>44618121
*The Matsu alone
Is what I meant to say.
Though they might be an extreme case since the Matsu are bugfuck crazy warmongers who believe all samurai everywhere should be fighting as soon as they can fuckin' walk practically.

>>44618053
To put things in further perspective:

The state of Texas is 268,820 square miles, Alaska is 663,300.

Turkey is 302,535 square miles.

Rokugan is bigger than any single country in Europe excluding Russia, and is bigger than fucking TEXAS. It would be the 28 largest country on our Earth and would be only MARGINALLY smaller than the 10 countries immediately above it.

Rokugan is by NO MEANS "an infantesimal part of their entire world." It's FUCKING HUGE for a premodern nation.

>>44618045
I'm not even sure about that, really. I mean, I'm guessing that we're putting more thought into this than Wick ever did, but that length is about the difference between Las Vegas and Seattle. Get the right mountain chains and ocean generated winds and you can easily have the almost tropical southern parts and cold, dry northern parts together in the same 800 mile length. It just needs to be wetter in the south and dryer in the north.

>>44618245
Problem is that the cold dry northern parts immediately turn into a scorching desert when you go just a few miles further north.

>>44618204
Fair point.
Though still curious about that seemingly large population; they mention that tiny island in the ocean controlled by the Tortoise Clan used for gaijin trading has "a few hundred Tortoise samurai", and that's supposed to be the tinest part of their Clan and the Clan itself is supposed to be one of the smaller Minor Clans....so does that make sense for a pre-modern society? That a minor faction could have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of soldiers and a major one could have tens of thousands.

>>44618266
Yeah, that's pretty wonky, but could be chalked up to "mountains, lol". It might make a meteorologist die inside, but judicious applications of "mountain ranges blocking precipitation and coldfronts, don't gotta explain shit" can handwave most stuff like that away.

>>44618299
Well, they do have literal magic blessing their crops, so they can probably support larger populations. It does seem kinda top-heavy for a caste based society though.

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>>44618304
"Mountains, lol" only goes so far.

>>44618338
It might be JUST the Matsu and Tortoise that are like that; Tortoise are supposed to be pretty well off and Matsu are Matsu.

>>44618361
It makes it look like the Yobanjin lands are all mountains here, but according to Imperial Archives they actually have a wide array of territories like Rokugan; the mountain ones are just the only ones the Rokugani know, and they actually have fairly impressive trading cities including a pretty impressive port city.

Their cultural is still tribal but apparently the "all mountain-dwelling raiding savages" is complete horseshit.

>>44618299
Premodern Chinese and Japanese cities had populations outnumbering every contemporary European city.

For example the city of Edo alone had over 3 million people in the 18th century, at that time the largest in Europe, IIRC, was London at 1 million.

With some fantasy handwavium it's not actually unreasonable at all for Rokugan to have a population well into the tens of millions.

>>44618424
Well, that map is from Legends of the Burning Sands, a now dead game entirely about roleplaying all those lands outside the Empire, so I'm just going to assume IA is a retcon.

>>44618434
Fair point.
Rokugan should still be suffering some of the actual social problems Japan had via the excessively bloated samurai caste....though maybe the constant wars keeps them from getting too bored and draining too much of the economy.
Basically it seems like they assumed the vast majority of people in Rokugan would be samurai to minimalize the best existence of the lower classes or something.....

>>44618481
Probably, but actually the Yobanjin had exactly zero presence in LotBS and were neither mentioned or were a faction in the game.
It almost entirely focused on Medinaat al-Salam and the area around it, so presumably they're too far away.

>>44618505
In the canon history of Rokugan some big Shadowlands demon Jesus always comes along and kills everyone just in time to prevent any potentially interesting intrigue like that from occurring.

>>44618505
The peasants are usually too busy starving to death to outbreed the idle elite.

>>44618505
>>44618592
This is actually why the Great Famine alt timeline was the best time period in all of the L5R RPG books.

>>44618554
I think it actually mentions that before the Clan War one of the problems was that there genuinely WERE too many samurai and that the Crab and Lion were getting really antsy.
>>44618592
That's not really a good idea; starving people are less efficient workers and less efficient workers mean you can't support your bloated upper class with your nearly entirely agriculture-based society.
It worked in the Edo Period because the Edo Period had a significantly better-developed economy, which led to other problems among the samurai of course.

>>44618613
I just make my own setting, really.
They can do it, so can I.

>>44618701
Pretty much everyone does, but GF is easily my favorite of the published alt settings.

>>44618613
I'm partial to Togashi's Empire, myself. I like the increased mystical stuff.

>>44618738
It's a pretty interesting one.

>>44619331
It's the only one that doesn't either completely turn the setting on it's head or go full "LOL, SHADOWLANDS!" in the end. It manages to do a lot just having humans vs humans with nothing but political intrigue and socioeconomic problems leading to revolt.

It's the most interesting to me because it showcases just how fucking retarded the storyteam are by completely outdoing anything they've ever written without using ANY of their fallbacks, and doing it using just Rokugan as-is without having to rewrite the setting to fit the timeline's events.

>>44618613
>>44619456

Here's some people with great taste. Great Famine is best time period, and it gives the game a nice gritty ronin-movie feel. And I know anything even vaguely ronin-like makes John Wick rageshit himself, so this is a plus.

>>44619456
>>44619647
The house setting we've been using (we're now playing the descendents of the original characters now, with some exceptions) we did the same thing; we moved the setting up a few centuries, minimized the Shadowlands (closed the Festering Pit, kept the Taint itself), which freed up the Crab and made the supernatural stuff more horror or Usagi Yojimbo-like, put the setting through a combination of the Onin War and the Sengoku Period (which we played through) and finally moved it up to the Edo Period (which we are playing through).

The Shadowlands are the "Setting Reset Horde" or a final boss threat, just an insidious force that sometimes fucks things up worse then they are (the Oda Nobunaga equivalent was almost literally a "Demon King", instead of just being a nickname) or an occasional threat that was more localized, and it's less "Shadowlands are the bad guy" and more "Taint is A bad guy which is made worse by the selfish actions of people".

>>44619960
I think the closest we came to a traditional Shadowlands thing was an entire few sessions that went something like the plot of Onimusha.

>>44602981
Every fucking thread there's some worthless faggot like you who can't resist asking the same fucking question.

>>44620030
Blame the most recent art for L5R almost universally involving hot women.

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>>44611523
>Killing him in a duel would be too much honor for him.
Scorpion care not one jot about honour, their ENTIRE premise is built around feigning adherence to Bushido at best, publicly deriving it at worse. They would be outraged and immediately demand a duel IF and ONLY IF it would be beneficial to their plans to have this samurai duelled (whether he wins it or not, as if often decided in advance by the Scorpion.)

>That jeopardizes our entire identity and utility to the clan
pic related, masks are rarely used to genuinely conceal a Scorpion's identity. They were more symbolic than functional in most cases.

>>44621283
>pic related, masks are rarely used to genuinely conceal a Scorpion's identity.

The masks of the Scorpion are almost completely metaphorical, even to them. They convey messages that Scorpion can usually easily understand and subliminally suggest things to non-Scorpion samurai who see them.
A very beautiful or handsome Bayushi might have a mask that covers basically nothing, letting you see his or her face while giving you a subtle hint that they're beautiful, but still dangerous.
A bushi who wears a fearsome oni mask that covers his entire face suggests that you should be wary of him because his looks aren't important, his skill is. Or maybe he could use a double-message; the mask he wears is actually just a simple mempo (suggesting battle-prowess), but his eyes and such are revealed and make him or her very handsome, simultaneously attracting and warning you off at the same time. Maybe if he's a duelist and wears a like that the mempo is in the shape of a hissing adder mouth with it's fangs beared; Scorpion are rumored to use poison when it suits them, and suddenly this duelist you have to fight shows up with a mempo that looks like the fangs of a poisonous serpent? Maybe make them EXTRA paranoid about it by having the mempo be all black EXCEPT the tips of the fangs, which are lacquered bright red?
Or maybe a seductive Bayushi beauty that wears daringly low-cut outfits that display a generous figure, but her entire face is covered by a hannya mask; hannya are female demons that eat men. You're simultaneously aroused and distracted because her outfit says one thing and her mask says another.
I've used all of these in our group's game's before.

Then you gotta remember that Scorpion also don't always have just ONE mask; they might have different ones that convey different things at different times.

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>>44623459

I've read enough mangos to know where this is going.

So here's a topic we don't go into much; how often are the details of your character's marriages elaborated upon?
Samurai in Rokugan are nearly always married before the age of 22, and in some clans (like the Lion) the marriages are officially arranged well beforehand at age 8 or 10.

There's a few families that are the exception to this sort of thing, but they're definitely outliers.

>>44623865
I had a Toku who was married to a Bayushi for political reasons since the Monkey and Scorpion intermarry sometimes to keep the ties between the two cordial as the Toku are basically on Scorpion lands, and also to actually have a semi-legitimate claim on them if the Toku go extinct I suspect.
My Toku bushi was actually pretty happy with his marriage since she was pretty and sweet and loyal, but she also kinda scared the shit out of him and sometimes made him uncomfortable because she was a bit too willing to resort to traditional Scorpion tactics.

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>>44618481
>>44618361
Take a gander at this non-canon map I found yesterday.

>>44624932
Its nice, but rokugan is far too south for it to have the climate it does. Either that or most of the northern map would be arctic.

>>44624932
I'd honestly like to hear more about the Thrane and Marenae.

>>44625787
Ehh... From what's been published it was basically not!Britain and not!Italy. Then it got wiped by a plague to avoid the eternal question of why don't they send another fleet over to wreck rokugan.

>>44625989
Actually the Thrane were some cross between the Dutch and English (one of the only Thrane mentioned was a "Sven Olafsson"), and the Marenae are Spanish given that they have names like "Cornejo" and "Espada", the latter of which is literally Spanish for "sword".

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>>44624932
Wow, this map is shit.
>Ivory Kingdoms on a different continent
>Yodotai Empire is next to the Yobanjin and the Senpet Empire
>City of Jewels is between Rokugan and the Yobanjin
>City of Jewels is not in the Burning Sands
>Lunar Empire... get out of my house ponyfag
>Rokagan
>Yodati
>Serpent Empire

1/10, courtesy point for the effort

>>44626609
Sadly, courtesy demands he refuse your point three times.

>>44626862
2 times.

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I got into L5R at the start of Diamond and left around Lotus. It was around the time MTG went full retard with Kamigawa, so I figured might as well try this weeb shit out. Turned out to be fucking awesome and cheaper than MTG to run a competitive deck. Really enjoyed the continuing story and how closely it was linked with the development of the actual cards. Something MTG didn't seem to do correctly until years later. How has the game / story been since then?

>>44626921
Is it? Huh. Well, I guess I dishonor my family by being wrong.

>>44626973
Offer 3 times, refuse 2 times, accept 1 time.

>>44626961
Retarded, for the most part. Cool idea, bad execution riddled with upper management fiat and story team favoritism. The Spider Clan has been entirely untouchable since being introduced as a major faction, even though they were in the running along with all the other clans and lost hard several times. They've completely ignored wins that didn't mesh with whatever was being handed down from the marketing team.

>>44626961
This >>44627054.

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I have a question about being a duelist asshole:

What's the best Bushi school for it? I'd assume Kakita but I've been wrong before. I recognize that 'good at iaijutsu' is a matter of high Void more than anything else, but I'm interested to see /tg/'s thoughts on the matter.

Runner-up question: Which is the good Bushi school for dueling AND functioning in normal skirmishes?

>>44619960

Honestly this is one of the reasons I liked post destroyer war story a lot. They kept the whole shadowlands thing as a minor plot point until right before they sold it. We got quite a few years of very little shadowlands stuff.

>>44625989

Marenae still exists but has been focusing on local and regional politics as the plague has made things chaotic. Thrane did get destroyed though. Poor dutchengland.

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>>44597408
>>44598498

If you can get a hard copy its worth it, the map comes with a wall length map of rokugan,

>>44627970
Akodo is really good. Bayushi is slightly less good.

New question: If you were to run a single-clan game focused on the common themes and internal activities of a that clan, which clan would you pick and why?

>>44628653
Crab. Fuck the shadowlands.

>>44628653
Crab. Because I like the Crab.

>>44628653
Crane, because fuck the Crab.

>>44628653
Bee Clan. Because every fantasy samurai game needs a heaping helping of fashion.

>>44628653

Crane. Pimpin' ain't easy, and it'd be a great way of balancing the intrigue, with the mucky work behind the scenes, with the occasional fight or battle. Social glue of Rokugan.

>>44628653

If I were to RUN a game? Crab clan, and I'd make all those fuckers be in charge of a section of the wall.

Playing in a game? I dunno. It'd be fun to be a group of all ronin, but if it has to be a clan, probably Mantis or Unicorn - having to get tricky for political power.

>>44629675

Do you mean wasp, or was there actually a Bee Clan I missed?

Honestly, I think Rokugan would be a lot more fun with more minor clans and feel a lot more politically dynamic. Especially since the Mantis becoming a clan basically took four minor clans out of the picture.

>>44629834
There's a Bee Clan that's kinda semi-quasi-canon in the Imperial Archives. They also have a Crow Clan, Shark Clan, Salamander Clan, Tanuki Clan, and Firefly Clan in there.

>>44629834
Actually a Bee Clan. It splintered off from the Crane when its founder (Doji Hachi) chose to give honest artistic criticism rather than follow the political lines handed down from her superiors, and the Emperor was so impressed by her integrity that he made her the founder of her own Minor Clan. They like fashion a lot and have carved out a courtly niche by always giving 100% honest criticism with no political overtones. If you want something honestly judged, you call a Hachi. If you want something judged by someone who will say you're the winner even if you aren't, hope there are no Hachi around.

>>44629865

Tanuki and Firefly I were aware of, and I think I recall the Crow. Have to look that up.

Okay /tg/ here's your challenge. The Emperor is going to let you form a minor clan for your good deeds. What do you call it, and what part of Rokugan do you put it, what is your minor clan school like, and what's your strategy for remaining relevant and not getting absorbed by a mightier clan?

>>44629920

Also, Hard Mode- don't use any name already used - even semi-canon. so no Imperial Archives, and no Owl or Tiger from Imperial Histories.

>>44629920
I feel like an Eel Clan splitting off from the Mantis and living along the coast would be neat. They'd take the Mantis predilection for grappling and improvised weapons and refine it into a dedicated wrestling tradition, much like the moray who bites into its enemies and never lets go, while being slippery enough to escape even the strongest grip. They'd probably be somewhere between the Tortoise and the Mantis on the illegal activity scale.

>>44629920
I'd rather use that idea I had a while back where a few spirits (The PCs) from a lost minor clan come back through Oblivion's Gate and submitted to the ritual to make them mortal again. Their clan is still technically on the books, as no emperor ever bothered to disband it, even after the taxes stopped coming in. A quick look back through the imperial records show that the government never officially took its land back into Imperial custody, but they did eventually hand it over to whatever clans were nearest after a bureaucrat noticed that nobody seemed to own it or care if it was divvied up.
So now they have to figure out what to do as a teensy tiny clan with no name, no clout, and no reputation.
I'm not sure what it'd be called or what its school would be like though. I think that would have to be collaborated with the other players and GM.

>>44630197
err, not "no name". Maybe "No name recognized by anyone alive."

>>44629920
Bear Clan: founded to patrol the shinomen mori

>>44629920

As much as I like the Mantis, I'd like to sort of break the "Crane and Phoenix have lots of coast, especially the Crane, and have resources, but go absolutely full retard at boats".

I would make a "Gull Clan" - they own just a small seaside castle and village somewhere along the coast, either near Phoenix or Crane lands, or maybe near all that land near Otosan Uchi that's no longer important anymore. They'd make boats, the best ones to be sold off to other clans. They might be an artisan school, but it would be neat if they had a sort of Mantis like Bushi school, but more focused around traditional weapons and tactics - with maybe a focus on avoiding getting knocked down or disarmed. They'd either rely on the Crane for support, or cut some sort of deal with the Mantis where they never challenge the Mantis too much, and also maybe do some spying for the Mantis on the mainland, in return for not getting their shit kicked in.

>>44630831
The Mantis is a great clan now, so they can't just go kicking minor clans around without consequence anymore. Also they're trying to cultivate a reputation as a defender of minor clans, which means fucking with one is something they don't want to be caught doing.

>>44630863

Yeah, exactly, that too. But even subtle fuckery can really ruin a minor clan's day.

>>44629920

http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Rokugan#Creatures_of_Rokugan

>Chameleon

As hilarious as a minor clan of spies and ninjas would be, I just can't see that flying with the Great Clans for long at all.

>>44630973
More likely they'd be a clan of artisans. With a secret group of spies and ninjas if you want to be extra stereotypical.

>>44630831

Part of the issue the Phoenix have on that front is they HAD people who were pretty good at magic and boats.

Those people became the Moshi Family.

Are any of the minor clans good at dueling?

>>44631652
Not really.

>>44631652
The Toku get bonuses whenever the TN's over 25. Them, maybe?

>>44631652

Not on a major clan level, not really. I guess maybe the Sparrow might be good at it if I recall their abilities...

>>44631799
As I recall, the Sparrow have one Technique that doesn't even contribute to combat and their combat Techniques center around lowering their Initiative to gain bonuses to their other techniques.

>>44631885
In other words, they're kinda shit for dueling.

>>44631921
They're kinda shit for everything. In a lot of cases, not having a technique at all is better than having a Sparrow technique.

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>>44629920

I think a Butterfly Clan would be great if only to have a swag swallowtail Mon like the Taira. Not sure where they'd come from or what they'd be good at. Maybe some connection to the Mantis due to the Wasp/Mantis/Centipede insect theme? I do recall a Kitsune Shugenja having a link with butterflies. Reading the wiki it seems they're mostly used as a metaphor for souls and ghostly things.

>>44632264
Badass ghost hunters?

>>44632988

Isn't that the Falcon Clan already?

>>44633004
Well they got nommed by le crab

>>44632264

In book of the Void it says the butterfly embodies the void. You could have them be void shugenja (dubious since the Isawa are supposed to be the only ones who can do this), or a bushi school focused around dueling and the center stance - a family that practices with the katana more for aesthetics than battle.

>>44633069
They held up better than the clans nommed by the mantis. Possibly because they mesh well with the ethos and mission of the rest of the Crab, but they are still different enough that they stay distinct.

>>44633132
Lol, imagine the terror yojimbo exhibit when its announced they have to duel a butterfly.

>>44623865
The one time I played L5R it was a pretty big deal. I was playing a naive Unicorn. His fiancee was a Scorpion.

She thought he was adorable, basically.

>>44633233
im using this and there's nothing you can do to stop me

>>44633947
>>44633233
>>44633132

I might work on fluffing this. I see a clan skilled a dueling and archery - the noble military arts. Anyone have any ideas how such a clan could be founded? I assume like most clans with an artistic bent it was by impressing the Emperor.

>>44634042
The way I'm gonna run them is loosely based on the "empire rests on its edge" kata.

>>44634042
The same way the Sparrow and Salamander clans came into being. A duelist (I'm going to say Kakita) says something really, really stupid about dueling in front of the Emperor, who gives him a stupid, related mission and a clan to help him get that done in order to save face for himself (For not having a snappy answer to such a stupid comment) and the Clan that the founder was originally a member of (For having a member like that make it all the way to the Imperial Court itself).

>>44634071

Where can I find that kata?

>>44634436
Book of Fire.

>>44634451

Ah yes, that one. We could probably easily come up with a whole career list for them. You only need 4, because 1 will always be "two attacks".

>>44634510
Well, I'm specifically tailoring mine around the philosophies of my players. Some serious shit is about to go down in my campaign and I'm developing minor clans for each of them should they go beyond the call of duty.

But yes, I agree.

>>44634547
Well lets see.

I agree we should have one based around using Kenjutsu/Kyujutsu to benefit artistic pasttimes, or vice versa, so that's one.

I picture the butterfly combat style involving a lot of "floating" - being hyper aware of what is going on. Perhaps they get a bonus to their TN while in the Center stance? Or maybe they can spend VP to help with Initiative in a special way.

Something like the Shinjo Bushi getting a chance to save VP would also be very appropriate.

Maybe they are better at Assessing, and get a slightly better bonus if they win an Assessment? Oooh, or maybe they can make quick free assessments in the midst of a skirmish?

>>44634668
I see it as they "float" around attacks after assessing. Perhaps something to do with full attack stance after a round in center?

>>44634668
There's a real-life philosophy of Japanese fencing you could use as an inspiration; Musōken, literally meaning "No-Mind Sword".
The theory of it is that you can strike with perfect accuracy and awareness of where you need to hit without consciously being aware of your target or even realizing he's there, sort of like Zen Archery's whole "no-mind shot" but with a sword.
You could tie it into the Meditation skill somehow or something.

>>44635373
They have that in Rokugan. It's represented mechanically by Void use in duels and combat, and is the justification for being able to use Void on Katana damage.

>>44635473
I was fairly certain that using Void for damage was because GRORIOUS NIPPON STEERU FORDED ONE THOUSAND TIMES, given how often they talk about the "infinitely superior steelwork" of Rokugani smiths and how they can "shatter lesser blades".

>>44635642
I actually laughed when the Book of Earth says that "a properly made katana can cleave or slice through wooden armor, even very good wooden armor, with relative ease".
Suuuure it can buddy. Suuuure it can.

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book of void p.116

>>44635793
While that's pretty interesting, it's also got nothing to do with the Musoken theory. Like, nothing in that entire paragraph even approached it, actually.

what I wanted to point out is that katanas are just magic

>>44635900
There's also a section in the Book of Void all about "Mind/No Mind" and it describes Musoken pretty closely and calls out Iaijutsu and kenjutsu as two things that use it.

>>44635917
Which is fine and all because it's Rokugan and everyone knows that already there.
Musōken would be a learned skill, not anything inherent to a katana because actually it's supposed to be derived from a method used in ALL higher-end martial arts or something like that.
I'm thinking something like adding Meditation ranks to attack rolls or damage or TN to be hit or something like that, because it's supposed to be a sort of advanced meditative state that enhances what you already know that you can enter at will, a Zen Buddhist philosophy thing, you know?

>>44635976
Well there you go.
Maybe Pretty Butterfly Clan has gotten REALY proficient at applying Musōken to the point where it's actually a standard passive thing; I mean there sure as shit isn't any tranquil state in anything a Matsu Berserker does with a katana, so while it exists in Rokugan it's clearly not a universal standard or anything.

Maybe Pretty Butterfly Clan's Absurdly Specific Minor Clan Thinh was that?
I mean it's not any weirder then an entire Clan created to go watch a fucking field, and there's a Minor Clan that does that.

>>44636081
Hey, they rap too ya know.

>>44636081
Every clan does the Mushin/Zanshen thing, even the Crab and Matsu. They tend to have it as a duality between no thoughts and absolute awareness.

>>44602981
is it just me or does the girl on the right have a "please notice me senpai!" look on her face?

>>44636081

Yeah, exactly. The Butterfly clan should be about No-Mind Musoken swordsmanship - basically they can use the center stance as a Defense ring until they strike. Of course this leaves them momentarily open after their strikes.

So, does a bonus to TN in Center stance sound good? I think it very much fits with their style of "float, then hit".

Being able to assess better also sounds fun, and fits with the whole void thing of being "in tune with everything".

>>44636173
>Samurai Rap

I'm MC Kakita, keepin' it real,
I'm the Artisan called Party-san,
got haiku and steel!
Yeah, I'm a duelist, I'll school this,
can't fool this 'cause I rule this,
my Iajutsu game is strong:
When you win all your duels, well you can't be wrong!
Say 'so long' to other bushi,
Akodo or Bayushi,
I whup their little tushies
with my sword or my brush,
in a duel or in the court, pick your fight but don't rush,
'cause either way I'll just crush
all your hopes and dreams,
split your heart at the seams,
When ladies see me rollin', their kimonos get they cream!
Yeah, you're wrong and I'm right,
I'm the reason the whole Pheonix got no balls for fight,
My skill is tight, I'm a fright,
winning duels left and right,
I'm the thing ladies crave;
If you come at Kakita well you best dig two graves-
One for your self, cause you'll be laid low,
and one for your honour, 'cause you got no flow!

Okay, my single complaint about the Atlas of Rokugan?
It includes the second Festering Pit in the Scorpion lands created after the Destroyer War, never mind that literally fucking nobody liked the storyline at that point and that it alienated it's player base so badly that they posted a message along the lines of "plz keep playin' guiz!" on their official website to no avail.

Couldn't they have just mentioned it in a goddamn sidebar instead?

>>44636681

I don't know ANYONE who assumes that Iweko took the throne. I always prefer to imagine a continuing Toturi dynasty. Continuing on into a period without all this retardation.

>>44636681
If they didn't put it there, then the few people who do use that era or later will miss it.
They could have put a "here's where it is if..." dot over it, but that's functionally the same as just putting it on the map.

>>44636390

ok so I thought about it some. Here's what I see it being roughly as.

Rank 1) The Butterfly Samurai chases the moment of perfection in all things. You can add your skill level in Iajutsu or Kyujutsu to any Artisan Skill Checks, and vice versa (might need to require a VP to activate, or make less obviously good).

2) The Butterfly Bushi opens their mind and senses their opponents intentions. You may spend a Simple action to Assess outside of a duel, or freely in less stressful circumstances - pick someone in sight and make an assessment. You learn one of the listed things, and gain the +1k1 bonus to your next attack against them. In a formal iajutsu duel, increase your assessment bonus to +2k1.

3) Attack as a simple action.

4) Gain a bonus to your TN in the Center Stance. Not sure how powerful this should be or if it should be based on something.

5) Whenever you are attacked, once a turn, you may spend a Void Point to activate an attack of no thought - with a katana if attacked in close combat, or a bow if attacked at range. You may attack before the enemy does, and however much damage they take from the attack is added to your TN to see if their attack hits.

>>44637242
To bring it in line with other SAAs, it should probably be "Attack as a simple action with Swords and Samurai keyword weapons". Or maybe just Samurai weapons. Very few schools get it with literally any attack.

>>44637278

Oh, right, I forgot. I'm tempted to balance this school and emphasis their focus by just saying "Katana (or swords) and Bows"

>>44637126

Please, absolutely no one will miss that aside from the people who make the game. Who is honestly going to admit to liking anything in the Iweko era?

>>44637328
If they have bows, then it should be just katanas and bows. Frankly, I'd make it Yumi and Katanas only.
Ranged SAA is very, very strong.

>>44637328
Well, there's only two or three weapons in the entire game with the samurai keyword.

>>44637391
Only because they didn't want to give any of the bows the keyword because then ranged SAA would be super common.

>>44637406
It would be easy to include "Yumi gain the samurai keyword for you" in the level one technique like other schools do for their weapon of choice.

I always liked the Kenku swordsman "You get SAA with any weapon you have a specialization in". It makes it really flexible without just giving you everything.

>>44637384

That's what I was thinking. Just having it be Katanas and Bows also emphasizes their specialization and focus.

>>44637420
This is probably the best way to go normally as it allows for the school's weapon to interact with alternate paths, advanced schools, and kata appropriately, but because it's a ranged weapon you might want to think about it more carefully.

Bonuses with ranged weapons are easily twice as powerful as a bonus to a melee weapon, so in the end this school basically becomes an archery school regardless of how its fluffed just because of how good those bonuses are for ranged weapons.

>>44637497
>>44637525

True, and something to consider. I'd almost even specialize more and say "Katana and Yumi only", considering those are the only two weapons really mentioned in the Book of Void.

>>44637450
Since tengu are supposed to be genius fighters with experience that literally expands beyond human history, it's kinda supposed to be that good.

I mean look at what Yoshitsune supposedly accomplished with their instruction in real-life Japan.

>>44637242

Anyways, aside from the discussion on rank 3, any other ideas how to balance this and fill in the questionable questions?

Here's the question no one's asked yet. What is the family name gonna be? Cho?

>>44637905
By tradition, absolutely yes.

>>44637905
>>44637982

Cho sounds kinda dumb. I'd say Ageha personally.

>>44638095
You'd have to rename it to the swallowtail clan.

>>44637886
Generally, if you don't know how powerful to make something, make it equal school rank (Or double school rank)
"A number of times per day equal to your school rank" is how you balance that Rank 1. At least with other minor clan schools.

>>44638124

Pfff, its close enough, no one will notice.

>>44638125

Aha, that's a good balance for Rank 1, thanks.

What about Rank 4? Having it as "gain a SR bonus" is too laughably small, but SR x 5 would become monstrously good, although you still have to come out of center stance sometime...

>>44638244
SR x 2?
Also, I was thinking you could augment Rank 1 instead, by adding "When you use your Rank 1 technique, instead of adding your skill level, you may instead use the highest Rank in those skills when making a skill test with any of them".
But that would probably be too good if it could be used with any artisan skill. You'd have to make it so the rank 1 ability only allows a single artisan skill (Painting would be the most logical, but "select 1" would also work) to be used that way.
I would also stipulate that you need at least 1 rank in any skill augmented by the Rank 1 (And therefore this proposed Rank 4) technique.

>>44638436
That is, instead of adding anything to Center stance, allow skill rank fuckery as the Rank 4 technique.

>>44638436

Hmm. Interesting. Here's how it stands now. I like your idea for rank 4, but I feel the current rank 4 is very fluffy in how a void swordsmen school should work, encouraging liberal use of the Center Stance and waiting. BUT I might swap that in for Rank 2 since I'm finding the current Rank 2 fun but a little clunky in wording.

1) The Ageha Bushi chases the moment of perfection in all things. A number of times per day equal to your School Rank, you can add your skill level in Iajutsu, Kenjutsu or Kyujutsu to any Artisan Skill Checks, or add your skills in an Artisan Skill of your choice to an Iajutsu, Kenjutsu or Kyujutsu roll.

2) The Ageha Bushi opens their mind and senses their opponent’s intentions. Whenever you enter the Center Stance, you may pick one opponent within your line of sight and make an Iaijutsu (Assessment) / Awareness roll against a TN equal to 10 plus that opponent’s Insight Rank x 5. You can learn anything you could learn from making an Assessment roll before an Iajutsu duel, and at the same rate. You also gain a +1k1 to the next attack you make as long as it is against that target. As well, in a formal iajutsu duel, gain an extra +1k0 to the bonus for winning the assessment

3) In a moment of nothingless, time vanishes. You may attack as a simple action with Katanas and Yumis

4) The Ageha Bushi floats with the Void, waiting for the right moment. While in the Center Stance, you gain a bonus to your TN equal to your School rank x 2

5) The Ageha has mastered the attack of No Thought, striking without thinkng. Whenever you are attacked, once a turn, you may spend a Void Point to activate an attack of No Thought - with a katana if attacked in close combat, or a yumi if attacked at range. You may attack before the enemy does, and however much damage they take from the attack is added to your TN for the resolution of their attack.

>>44638481

Really the rank 2 and rank 4 are sort of fluff wise teh same thing - reading the battle. I'd make Rank 4 a buff of rank 1, make rank 2 the center TN bonus.

>>44617267
honestly, I appreciate that even though that contradicts their older, shittier maps.
a feudal system modeled on the bakufu simply cannot maintain a large land empire. Although this also fucks with the scale of other L5R stuff, mostly population shit: basically all of their wars have always had way too many soldiers and there are always way too many people to die horribly all the time. Bloodspeakers can murder entire villages and leave a thousand corpses behind and there's no consequences for that beyond summoning an oni and leaving zombies behind or whatever.

In an actual feudal state, the death of 1000 people utterly destroys a small lord, and can fuck with the powerbase going upward from there for a century or more.

>>44638570
Read down a bit. That's not very small at all.
Also, small lords getting completely fucked happens all the time. They just don't go into detail usually because AEG always focused on the empire-wide picture when talking about eras, rather than local problems. Read about Ronin and vassal families and you'll see a ton of shit about little lords getting shafted so hard that their entire family line and everyone sworn to their service get fucked right along with them.

>>44637391
It always baffled me that the nodachi didn't merit the samurai keyword.
It's made exactly like a katana, only it's even HARDER to craft due to the blade length and even being able to make one was the mark of a very skilled craftsman, and owning one was more of a status symbol since "a katana, but more" was of course even more expensive.

>>44638540

Okay so like this?

1) The Ageha Bushi chases the moment of perfection in all things. A number of times per day equal to your School Rank, you can add your skill level in Iajutsu, Kenjutsu or Kyujutsu to any Artisan Skill Checks, or add your skills in an Artisan Skill of your choice to an Iajutsu, Kenjutsu or Kyujutsu roll.

2) The Agesha Bushi can sense the flow and intent in all things, if they but focus. While in the Center Stance, increase your TN by your School Rank x 2. You also gain +1k0 to making Assessment rolls in Iajutsu duels.

3) In a moment of nothingness, time vanishes. You may attack as a simple action with Katanas and Yumis

4) The Agesha Bushi sees that the perfect moment is defined not by what it is, but what it lacks. When using your Rank 1 skill, instead of adding the relevant skill levels, you may have that skill’s rank replace the rank of the one you are using.

5) The Ageha has mastered the attack of No Thought, striking without thinkng. Whenever you are attacked, once a turn, you may spend a Void Point to activate an attack of No Thought - with a katana if attacked in close combat, or a yumi if attacked at range. You may attack before the enemy does, and however much damage they take from the attack is added to your TN for the resolution of their attack.

>>44638733
A lot of the tags in 4e are more relative to mechanics than they are actual fluff. Like how the Kuni Witch Hunter is not a monk but gets the monk tag just for the sake of learning kiho.

So I'm making a True Ronin character for a 3rd Edition game (hold your jeers). I just wanted to post what I've got and see if anyone has any suggestions or tips.

School: Ronin Bushi
Stamina 2
Willpower 2
Strength 3
Perception 3
Void 2
Agility 3
Intelligence 2
Reflexes 3
Awareness 2

Skills:
Defense 3
Hunting 1
Kenjutsu 3 (Katana and No-Dachi emphasis)
Kyujutsu 1
Iaijutsu (Focus Emphasis)
Investigation 1
Etiquette 1
Deceit 1

Advantages:
Hero of the People
Luck (1 rank)
Strength of the Earth (2 ranks)

Social Disadvantage (1 rank, mandatory for ronin)
Sworn enemy (same insight rank)
Nemesis
Driven

For the record, my GM is allowing some 4e material and used Way of the Wolf for my heritage rolls. Said rolls got me:
An ancestor of mine killed an initial alongside the Kuni witch hunters. I start with a major ally in the Kuni witch hunters and 3 points of taint.
An ancestor (my father) was disloyal, and left his clan (the scorpion, determined by a roll) to seek his fortune, and ended up losing everything. I start with no koku and and all my equipment is at poor quality except for one item (my No-Dachi, which I plan to use as my main weapon).
Finally, an ancestor of mine belonged to the Falcon clan before the crab absorbed them, and I was able to purchase a family trait bonus from that clan for 4 character points (which I did, though the only family trait bonus they had was a +1 to Perception).

So, what do you guys think? I hear all the time that ronin tend to get shafted mechanically, will this build hold up alright compared to your average clan samurai?

>>44639236
Needs more health. Get a higher Earth ring.
Or you'll die.

>>44639236
In Third Ed some of the Ronin Schools were actually better then some of the Great Clan schools actually, but that's not your problem.
Mostly your problem is a really low Earth ring in a high-lethality game; one hit (and you WILL get hit) will send you into a death spiral.

>>44639586
>>44639756
True. Problem is, I don't have a lot of points to put into that and my skills/advantages. My school boosted my strength and I got the perception for 4 points. The reflexes and agility boost drained me of 24 points, boosting Willpower and Stamina would drain me another 24 for 48 points total.

My last character had 2 Earth and he was fine, though admittedly he was a Mirumoto Bushi and was thus very difficult to hit. Think I could just save my XP and boost my earth later on?

>>44639785
I've done it before, but it's always a risk.

>>44628168
>>44627970
If your DM foolishly allows you to have the Bayushi ancestor you win everything.

>>44640171
Question about ancestor advantages

Would it be reasonable to have an ancestor advantage and a school from a different clan? Or woulld that be offensive to the ancestors?

>>44640647
Well I guess you COULD if you had a willing ancestor and good justification.
Good luck appeasing Matsu whilst you perfect the Kakita School's techniques, for example.

>>44640647
>>44640681
It happens all the time. I don't know if they mention it in 4e but in older editions they specifically mention ancestors will sometimes favor descendants who are even currently in other clans.

>>44640681
Would Bayushi be okay with his descendant learning the kitsuki investigation method?

>>44640724
Does Bayushi's entry say he wouldn't?

Then it doesn't fucking matter.

Which clan has the best non-bushi/courtier/shugenja school? I'm taking weird stuff like artisans and obscure alt ranks.

>>44641387
Kaiu engineers are technically bushi/artisan, but theyre heavy focused on seige engines and making dope ass armor and swords. I wanted to be one of those in my last campaign but my group convinced me to be a kitsuki investigator instead.

>>44641387
Kakita and Shiba both have artisan basic Schools, as do the Tsi and the Kaiu as >>44641759 said.
Only the Kakita have alternate Artisan paths, including the only advanced artisan School in the game.

>>44640724
Bayushi would probably love having the method, because ferreting out the truth of other people's sins is how they get so much leverage. What the Scorpions in general hate is having the Kitsuki apply the method to the Scorpion, because their own secrets should be sacrosanct.

Wasn't Bayushi dead before Agasha Kitsuki founded his family, though? He probably doesn't have much actual experience with the method one way or another, unless one of the descendants he was following around happened to encounter it.

>>44597056
Depends on the edition. In 1st/2nd/3rd they were designed off of the always awful "Being weak early justifies insanity later!" design model, with geometric progression on tattoo usage (each rank improving the tattoo's effect, and increasing uses/day). This is "balanced" by the idea that very few characters will ever actually reach rank 5, with most puttering around at rank 2-3 until the campaign desolves, which is generally where the Monk evens out from being garbage to being okay, before climbing the stairway to Untouchable Kung Fu Jesus.

>>44641759
I love Kaiu blades just for that one minor listed property: "Indestructible".
Kaiu Blades are fuckin' adamantium.

>>44642196
Yeah, Bayushi died well before the Kitsuki got their thing.
Honestly with the exception of Shinjo, most of the Amatsukami bit the dust relatively soon after the First Day of Thunder in various ways, with Bayushi being the second to go out because of his thing with Shosuro.

>>44642300
Yeah. Actually, even beyond just finding out other people's secrets, if the Kitsuki Method could turn up a clue or two about Shosuro's whereabouts, Bayushi would love you forever.

>>44642327
Bayushi knew where Shosuro was, he was upset that he lost her to the lying darkness, not that he literally lost her.

>>44642431
Didn't she disappear at one point? I was sure he spent a while looking for her because she was actually missing, not just hopped up on Evil. I can't fopr teh life of me remember when, though.

>>44642327
The Kitsuki Method (likely not called that) is likely employed regularly by Scorpion simply because for blackmail to be effective at all it needs to be objectively true in most cases.

And it's very difficult to find a being literally made out of lies.
>>44642431
No, after Shosuro "died" and became Soshi he genuinely thought she was gone, and after he began to suspect they were one and the same Soshi fled the Clan to become imprisoned by Togashi to combat the Lying Darkness that was slowly consuming her.
>>44642451
Kinda sorta.

>>44642451
She went to Togashi and had him imprison her because she knew she was falling to the Lying Darkness. There's no indication if he knew about it or not.

Either way they were reunited in a way in 1133 when he and Kachiko convince Shosuro to drown herself.

>>44642517
I think the implication is that he was unaware of what plagued Shosuro until it was too late; not only were the Scorpion all completely unprepared for fighting the Lying Darkness at first, they actually kept an entire family dedicated to using it's power around and gradually increased the ranks of the Goju over time, something that Bayushi himself (who definitely always stuck by his role in the Empire even if later Champions wouldn't) would never allow.

Do the crab have any schools or alternate paths or anything for dueling?

I want to make a crab duelist, but I have no idea how, none of their bushi schools that I've seen even have iaijutsu as a class skill

>>44643389

They'd have to learn it somewhere else. Hiruma might not be too bad at it. And a Yasuki could probably buy their way into any school that's not Kakita.

>>44643389
The Hida Defender is the Crab Duelist Alternate Path. It works best with Hiruma students (despite the name) since Hiruma are the designated swordsmen of the Crab.
Be forewarned, it's not the best of duelist schools in some ways; it's deliberately not designed to give you an edge in speed or any of the things you find in duelist AP's and schools, but instead gives you Reduction during an iaijutsu duel.

Basically it's a school for SERIOUS duels; sure a Crab won't hit first in an iaijutsu duel to the death, but you can be damned sure in a duel to the death it!/ the last guy on his feet who wins.

>>44643389
All of the Crab bushi schools have an "any one bugei skill" or even "any one skill" in their starting seven that could go towards Iajutsu.

>>44643477
Crab Defender can be found in the Book of Air by the way.

>>44604470

t-t-t-the lewdest......

>>44638734

Alrighty, morning again /tg/. I'm thinking about continuing on making our nice little Butterfly Clan today. Or swallowtail clan. Whatever.

Anyways, maybe you can all help me fluff. First location - things to consider.
-They are, despite having bushi, a more courtly sounding entity, suggesting living more on the east near the capital.
-Their dedication to void make might them gravitate to living near the phoenix and dragon

And as for origin story, not sure we want to go the whole "guy was a dumbass, Emperor was nice and gave him a minor clan." I think that a butterfly clan needs at least one good ghost story in its background, probably involving a butterfly representing the soul of the dead returning.

Thoughts?

>>44643550
Hey, they gotta learn it from somewhere right? And Scorpion women marry early and if widowed never remarry and they got NEEDS man...

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>>44643581
>And as for origin story, not sure we want to go the whole "guy was a dumbass, Emperor was nice and gave him a minor clan." I think that a butterfly clan needs at least one good ghost story in its background, probably involving a butterfly representing the soul of th

One day he Tsubame Gaeshi'd in front of the Emprah.
He was real impressed, gave him a Minor Clan for it.

>>44643581
How about a family of ronin who defended a stretch of forest known for butterflies from a large bandit clan?

>>44643677
Now that would be an awesome school technique

>>44643757

That's.... pretty dumb. Way too obvious. The whole reason they're called the butterfly clan is because the butterfly is seen as a creature of the void, and is usually associated with souls - in Rokugani myth a butterfly showing up usually means it is the soul of the dead hanging around.

>>44643941
What if the founder's ancestral lands were occupied by peasants with a long tradition of funeral service? You'd have, say, a valley full of eta responsible for dealing with the funeral preparations for the surrounding lands, and these guys would be the samurai family watching over them.

>>44643581
Founded by a former member of the crab clan.

An isolated Kuni household was assaulted by spirits from gaki-do, suddenly and lethally, killing all within but a young witch-hunter apprentice, who survived due recieving advance warning by the spirit of his dead father, and only held his ground against the spirits that found him due to advice his father's spirit gave him, advice on how to find the peace within necessary to defend himself.

Feeling betrayed by the rest of the Kuni family for letting his close family die in the attack, he sought to leave the crab... Then shit happened and someone gave him a minor clan I dunno where to go from there

>>44644068

This one is a bit better, but I'm not sure a samurai family would want to be associated with the gross physical part of death. It makes more sense if their land has a shrine to a particularly brutal battle or a very tragic event.

What determines whether someone founding a new family gets to start a new minor clan or becomes a new family in an existing clan? Like,
Agasha Kitsuki founded his own family after splitting off from the Agasha family, but he stuck around with the Dragon instead of founding, say, the Skink clan or whatever. Meanwhile the Sparrow clan founder split off from the Crane, but didn't stay on as a Crane family, instead founding the Sparrow. Is it just whether or not they want to stay and their old clan still wants to keep them, or what?

>>44644312
I'm sure they wouldn't want to be associated with eta, but someone has to look after those peasants, and if Duty and Compassion are your big tenets of Bushido, what are you going to do?

>>44644326

I think its mostly a choice, and dependent on what is seen as most honourable. Agasha Kitsuki was clearly motivated by wanting to stick around with the dragon. While in the case of the Sparrow clan, leaving them with the Crane would be pretty awkward for the Crane.

>>44644087
This is one of the better ones proposed.

>>44644579
To form a clan you need the emporers backing.

>>44643941
Have you ever played the game Fatal Frame 2? Butterflies play a heavy role in the game's symbolism.

I feel like the background of that game could play in somehow.

>>44644326
>>44644579
The Emperor's whim.

Seriously, that's it.

>>44643915
I think the fourth Kakita technique is actually supposed to be the Swallowtail Cut, the actual version that's supposed to be a single-motion double-cut.

>>44644326
To get a Minor Clan there needs to be some kinda whim/impressing the Emperorer.
Families are created within Clans, usually when a notable individual in another family does something impressive or there's simply enough related individuals showing up enough in the clan to be it's own power base.

>>44644087
>>44644686

I like this one, but I'd change it to Phoenix Inquisitors and make it more about maho sorcerers - they should have a spooky beginning, that their founder managed to overcome with dueling. And it impressed the Emperor. Their key "thing" is their void centric style of dueling, practicing it more for the sake of the artform than fighting (though they can).

Perhaps the founder was aware of a famous duellist practicing maho, relating to the death of his family, and sought revenge and got rekt, but lived. It wasn't until he let go of his anger and passions that he developed a school where he could make the cut of no thought.

Any Emperor would love a story with spoopy ghosts, revenge, dueling and philosophy in it.

>>44645021
Who doesn't love Snoopy?

>>44643389
Every bushi school with the sole exception of the Tsuruchi (And only when they're a minor clan, and only because they don't use swords at all) has the capacity to teach dueling. A school is like a college. Even if they don't focus on it, they've got at least a few teachers and at least one campus that can teach it.
In the Crab's case, it's the Unbreakable Blade dojo that teaches their elite dueling techniques. A crab who can duel well has probably spent some time at the basic lessons there. A professional crab duelist (Or yojimbo) has probably spent a significant amount of time there and possibly learned the Crab Defender alternate path if they're really focused on that.

>>44645021
I like this. Make it so the lands his family were slain became their clan lands, being forested and full of butterflies(monarchs?). Maybe in the one settlement that it hosts the butterfly clan grows various herbs and plants that attract the butterflies.

>>44645021
Hmmm, that back story begs the question of what the butterfly clans purpose is. Something to do with hunting down maho in the courts? Or just raising the best bonsai around?

>>44648149
Hunting maho in the courts steps on the toes of the Inquisitors, Witch Hunters, and Blackwatch.
They wouldn't be able to get much of that done unless they started sucking some Phoenix, Crab, or Scorpion dick.

>>44648149
An Artisan alternate path dedicated to cultivating bonsai would actually be pretty cool.

>>44648149

They're probably just there to practice and show off their fancy sword style now. They have a Bushi school, but they're closer to a courtier family. It is possible they are tasked with guarding an important shrine from warring clans or bandits.

>>44648620
Perhaps the forest?

>>44648676

Maybe they're at the southern edge of the Mori Isawa

So, according to the rare fluff that talks about it, the Scorpion and the Monkey Clan are actually on pretty good terms what with Toku himself marrying the Shosuro daimyo's daughter even though the Toku were on what used to be Scorpion-held lands.

Do you think the Scorpion keep that friendly relationship up just to have a legitimate legal claim on the keep again if anything happened to the Monkey (since Minor Clans can and do get wiped out a lot), or do you think they're actually genuinely fond of the Toku's idealistic little brood?

>>44649321
Writer favoritism aside, think a bit of both is probably the truth.
The Shosuro and the Scorpion in general probably arranged the marriage for political reasons (it's a good way to lay long-term claim to a place without deliberately subverting them), but it says they view the Toku family as sort of "a naive little brother that needs protecting from the realities of the world". I imagine on occasion a Scorpion marries a Toku just to keep the families relatively related and to continue resuming diplomatic relations even. I imagine the Scorpion family loyalty thing is another thing that makes them like the Monkey; in a sense they're related and to a Scorpion loyalty is EVERYTHING.

Note that the "naive younger brother" attitude is still pretty dismissive just like the Scorpion are usually dismissive of Minor Clans; it's just dismissive of the Monkey in a fond way rather then an arrogant way.

>>44649321
The Scorpion as a whole do tend to like honest and sincere people (Who aren't Scorpion). They're a known, reliable quality.

>>44649270

Eh, the Mori Isawa is right in the middle of Phoenix territory. You need to look for somewhere on the borders for minor clans to really spring up.

>>44649665
I like the idea that everyone tries to take advantage of the Monkey and then the Scorpion go full psychotically protective brother on the side and the Monket just think their niceness did the job, it's kinda funny.

>Doji-sama: "Of course Toku-san, we're properly showing all of our local income in this province!"
>Toku-san: "Hey, that's rad! I'm glad because this is my first job as a Magistrate."
>*that night Doji-sama wakes up to find a ninja over his bed*
>Shosuro-san: "Be nice to him or I'll fucking kill your mom."
>*the next morning*
>Doji-sama: "HAHA, as it TURNS OUT I TOTALLY miscounted Toku-san! Here's the real ledger!"
>Toku-san: "That's super cool that you decided to be honest! Go friendship! Monkey AWAAAAY!"

>>44638734
I think we need a better rank 4 technique. Either something with void or center stance.

>>44650624

I thought the idea was to have Rank 4 be an upgrade on the regular rank. Rank 2 is sort of the Center Stance bonus at the moment. What would you suggest?

>>44651413
Well the issue with it as it exists is I don't think anyone would get any benifet of the skill replacement unless with very high and low ranks.

I think something along the lines of adding your amount of void points to an attack roll.

On the other hand, many schools have very enemy specific techniques. Perhaps a bonus when facing someone less void points than yourself?

>>44651700

Maybe they could be combined - when you activate your rank 1 ability you also add void points, or do better against people with less void points if it is contested. Or gain free raises equal to VPs.

Ageha Family: +1 to awareness
Ageha Bushi School
Benefit:+1 reflexes
Skills: Any two Artisan skill, Etiquette, Kenjutsu (Katana), Kyujutsu, Iajutsu, Meditation, any other skill
Honor: 3.0
Outfit: Light Armor, Sturdy Clothing, Daisho, Kumi with 20 arrows, traveling pack, 5 koku.

1) Perfection through patterns
The Ageha Bushi chases the moment of perfection in all things. A number of times per day equal to your School Rank, you can add your skill level in Iajutsu, Kenjutsu or Kyujutsu to any Artisan Skill Checks, or add your skills in an Artisan Skill of your choice to an Iajutsu, Kenjutsu or Kyujutsu roll.

2) Empty, and Become Wind
The Agesha Bushi can sense the flow and intent in all things, if they but focus. While in the Center Stance, increase your TN by your School Rank x 2. You also gain +1k0 to making Assessment rolls in Iajutsu duels.

3) Enter the Void
In a moment of nothingness, time vanishes. You may attack as a simple action with Katanas and Yumis

4) Tempest from the Wing-Flap
Current:
The Agesha Bushi sees that the perfect moment is defined not by what it is, but what it lacks. When using your Rank 1 skill, instead of adding the relevant skill levels, you may have that skill’s rank replace the rank of the one you are using.

Proposed:
When facing an opponent with a lower void ring than yourself, add Xk0 to your Kenjutsu or Kyujutsu attack rolls, where X is half your opponents void ring.

5) The swallowtail cut
The Ageha has mastered the attack of No Thought, striking without thinking. Whenever you are attacked, once a turn, you may spend a Void Point to activate an attack of No Thought - with a katana if attacked in close combat, or a yumi if attacked at range. You may attack before the enemy does, and however much damage they take from the attack is added to your TN for the resolution of their attack

>>44653440
whipped this up real quick. Not so sure about the skills or rank 4, but thought it was a good idea format the work we've done.

>>44653440

As the guy who made the original mock-up, this looks pretty good all around. I was tempted to give the class the +1 Void to be thematic, and to stop them from getting a freebie air ring but I'm not sure if that works beyond Monk schools who I assumed were balanced by having less stuff. They could also receive +1 Agility - less auto good with bows, and more proficient with the paintbrush.

But skills look pretty solid. I like that they automatically have Etiquette, but not Courtier, representing them as more passive.

>>44653837
I gave them reflex because thats what the other dueling school, kakita, had. Maybe do away with the bow focus and make them pure katana? Maybe give them a tessen?

>>44653837

Anyways, been thinking about the fluff. I really would like a very ghost-story like set up to the clan, mixing a creepy problem with a duelist who overcomes it.

My idea is that the founder was a samurai retainer for a daimyo whose family came under the sway of a maho advisor. The retainer attempted to thwart this man, who responded by killing the retainer's betrothed, and then his family, until the retainer snapped and tried to kill the maho, and failed, the maho being an unnaturally proficient duellist. This led to the retainer being made ronin by his daimyo and cast out.

The retainer is resolved to commit seppuku to atone for his failure to rescue his daimyo, until a butterfly alights on the hilt of his sword, and he believes it to be to soul of his dead betrothed. His hatred and fear evaporate - he realizes that the evil of the maho and the pain he caused are but fleeting things. The celestial wheel still turns. He can do not good full of his hurt and sorrow.

The retainer takes up his life as a ronin, practicing with monks as well to try to achieve mastery of void. Eventually he hears that a member of one of the Imperial families is blessing his former daimyo with a visit, and he understands that he cannot let a member of that august family be exposed to the taint. In the midst of the social gathering, he unveils himself and challenges the corrupt advisor on his taint, of course instigating a duel. Enraged when his pre-duel taunts regarding the retainers fallen family gain no reaction, the maho makes a dishonourable attack when the retainer turns to walk to the dueling sight - and the retainer performs a cut of No Thought in front of the Imperial family member. Impressed, the retainer is asked about his motives, and explains that when he thought of revenge, he believed he was thinking of the dead, but was thinking of himself.

>>44653440
I like the way this looks, personally.

>>44654372

His fighting style becomes a source of fascination, and he is allowed to form a minor clan using the lands of his daimyo, who had to be killed due to taint. It transpires that the maho was attracted to this place due to the number of pliable spirits here - the clan has the duty not only of protecting its unique combat style, but also of ensuring no maho use their spiritual nature of their land for evil.

For clan colours I was thinking some combination of white, symbolizing death and ghosts, black or dark purple symbolizing the void, and orange to represent monastic teachings.

>>44654157

I would like to keep the bow focus because bows have their whole own section in book of the void. I also think dividing attention between katana and yumi is one way to balance this class, and it gives a flavour of much of it being artistic and for meditation purposes. Maybe let the school give +1 Void but lower their starting koku a tad? And maybe they don't start with armour?

>>44654425
Problem is I don't know of any school or family that gives a +1 void other than the old royal family. As it is with bows the school is approaching being OP. I agree though that maybe switching the schools bonus to agility would make bows less OP, but I'm hesitant as reflex is the dueling school standard.

Bows are incredibly powerful and giving simple attacks to them is probably way too much.

>>44654739

Yeah, that was my worry with void - though the monk schools do get it and maybe the Tao swordsmen, which is actually close to what this is (have to check).

I would say go for Agility to balance bows - Reflexes might be a duelling standard, but this school seems to focus more on the Assessment part of dueling, for which it has Awareness. I was even considering let them do Assessments in skirmishes but I wasn't really sure how to do that.

>>44654810
Okay, I'm thinking switch school bonus to awareness and make the family bonus willpower. Along with that drop bows from some of the techniques. Any ideas of what to do with the mess that is rank 4?

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Man, L5R's earlier editions really show the decade it was made in with recurring characters like Hiroru, who legit was called the "White Ninja".

>Dem 90's tho

>>44655298

I would say that we still want it to boost the rank 1, but we have to find a better way of doing it. Currently the rank 4 encourages having just one good combat skill, and one good artisan skill, which sort of makes it lame for higher level characters.

How about when using your Rank 1, you can get free raises somehow, as mentioned, maybe connected to VP or VP difference? So if you're using it for Art, you can really snazz it up, and using it for combat, you can get all fancy on a low VP dude.

>>44654739

My suggestion personally, based on what people have been saying.

Give the School a +1 Void bonus.

Loose the ability for them to make Simple Attacks with Bows, and maybe drop the Light Armour (they are mostly a show off school.)

As for Rank 4... something involving Center Stance or your Void Ring I'd guess.