Good tier 2 decks edition.
what are some of /tg/'s favorite tier 2 decks and what do you think they need to be put over the edge into tier one.
Not even sure if I'd consider it tier 2 but tokens. It crushes half the tier 1 matchups but gets obliterated by tron/bloom/Scapeshif/storm/ad nauseum unless your thoughtseize lottery game is strong
I like this one.
Only 1 placed in the top 64 decks at the open, it has some really good matchups and some really awful ones but not enough in between ones to make it super strong.
It gets free wins against bad Jund players, Tron, and usually Junk but auto loses to Affinity game 1, loses game 1 to burn and doesn't always recover, and doesn't do that well against Bloom, Scapeshift and weird combo decks. Struggles with twin because twin's tempo is nuts, but it can steal some games from any of the bad matchups if you get really lucky
yes it will
each time mana added to your mana pool by pyromancer's gogles is spent to cast a red instant or sorcery, its copied once, so if you spent two different instances of mana added to your mana pool by pyromancers goggles on a spell, two triggers occur
Will I win my GPT with this?
>Eldrazi temple spikes in price
>Eye of ugin spikes
>Sower is $8 a card
Fuck me a B/W deck is finally viable in modern and the price of it gets price gouged to fuck and back. Doesn't help when its being pushed as the next meme deck by most stores now.
>Doesn't help when its being pushed as the next meme deck by most stores now.
Don't you see the correlation here? It all starts with Star of David Games. SCG pushes a new memedeck/card while buying up copies and spiking the price, then when all the dumbshit kiddies have bought the deck/card, they drop it and push a new memedeck/card. This has been going on for a while now.
I like living end. it will never be tier one because it completely folds to graveyard hate. if someone just drops relic of progenitus and leaves one mana open I'm helpless. hard casting inefficient creatures is not a good backup plan.
originally built it for nostalgia because friend in high school had a living death deck that just looted for 5 turns then flipped some thorn elementals into play. I really liked that deck. But now I'm thinking about selling it and building something else. I was intested in playing tooth and nail and just folding to spot removal but that kiki-chord deck that was on the SCG open stream looked like the kind of thing I would enjoy playing.
My nigga, living end was my first modern deck built and its still what I default to when I need a deck to take to FNM. Its such a fun deck and makes you think of how to play ≥3cmc cards, but the worst feeling is getting fucked by a turn 0 leyline of the void or its ilk.
As for the tooth and nail deck, have you not considered the xenagos/emrakul setup? Both are indestructible and a 30/30 annihilator 6 haste is pretty good.
yeah that's what I was referring too. the deck is crippled by removal though. you need those land untappers untapping lands to hit T&N by turn 4.
although in one goldfish and a literal god hand I hardcasted emrakul on T4, would be hilarious to see an opponent's reaction if it happened in a real game.
Living End shouldn't fold to relic. You just wait for them to commit something to the board, living end anyway and rebuild. The deck gets to fill its grave basically for free once you have 3-4 lands. The only thing that bends living end over backwards is rip and leyline. And better decks that have more powerful combos.
How would a lightning bolt ban transform the format? my predictions:
>burn becomes Tier 99999
>Jund dissapears, the reing of terror of abzan begins
>Stoneforge mystic must not be unbanned
> Zoo becomes tier 1 (?)
What do you think fags
I crush the affinity players at my store but they're legitimately horrible players so I figured the matchup is about even. It's a race between decks that goldfish about as fast as each other. They get boardwipes post board but we get super efficient spot removal and sometimes recal which is a blowout. Blighted agent is key bc champion can't walk it. I think the absolute worst matchup for infect is tokens. Fuck tokens.
My favorite tier 2 deck is RG Zoo. It's a really solid deck that has almost no bad matchups from the tier 1 decks
Affinity we can easily beat the only real problems are their fliers and etched champions. Games 2&3 become really easy with all the artifact hate packed in the SB.
Burn is also generally easy to win against. We don't run out of gas as quickly and can block their creatures and remove them easy enough which are their best sources of damage. We also have baloth and feed the clan.
Twin is a hard matchup because unless we have a very explosive hand it's hard to beat them before they successfully combo off. If they don't find the combo quickly though we can generally pull through.
Jund basically comes down to skill. 50/50 here but Jund might have a slight advantage due to all the removal they run.
R/G tron is basically a buy.
Don't run an all in list? Play it more like twin and Tron. Ramp up into wurmcoil, thragtusk, Garruk etc. And use TN as an oops I win combo.
If they're using their mana for spot removal you shouldn't be on a super fast clock and a curve into overgrowth can do fine
>people don't expect a huge banlist change in two weeks
>people think an Amulet Bloom nerf/ban is as big as the Deathrite Shaman ban or Birthing Pod ban
They want to shake up the meta. Simply banning out Amulet Bloom isn't enough. They'll kill Amulet Bloom and something format defining.
One of these is getting banished:
>Deceiver Exarch (to completely shake up the meta and nerf Twin)
>Splinter Twin (to completely shake up the meta and nerf "Twin", becoming "UR Kiki" which is likely a Tier 3 trainwreck)
>Blood Moon (in an attempt to nerf Twin and buff non-Twin interactive decks)
>Urza Tron (in an attempt to encourage Eldrazi decks and buff interactive decks)
>Cranial Plating (in order to increase sideboard slots for every decks)
>8ED and 9ED (in order to buff interactive decks)
This format is kept fresh by bannings. That's what happened last year. And the year before that. Wizards gives no fucks about how much money you gave to the guy at the LGS, so be ready to potentially say goodbye to your Affinity/Twin/Tron/Amulet decks.
enduring renewal, kobolds, goblin bombardment. It's the first combo deck I played waaaay back when.
updated it to something like this:
enduring renewal in play; use despotic scepter to send a kobold to the graveyard, as a result of which dross scorpion untaps the scepter; replay the kobold and tap the scepter, &c. With this set up you can have genesis chamber give you infinite 1/1 myrs or soul warden give you infinite life.
It's a bit difficult to get both the scorpion and the enduring renewal out before turn 4, however.
Is there anywhere outside of CoCo and Vial where Serra Avenger can be even semi-competitive? I've loved that card since Time Spiral, and I'd like to play it in a deck other than Death and Taxes.
I swear this list is retarded. None of those are even remotely possible bans. Twin, Tron, affinity have done literally nothing to deserve bans. Amulet bloom is also not getting a ban, it hits t2/3 kills less then infect.
Taking this seriously for a minute, banning bolt would make burn way worse, but other aggro way better. Red would no longer be worth splashing, I'm not sure what would replace it but my gut reaction is more 2 mana hard kill spells. Aggro would get a huge boost, especially nacatl aggro and I am guessing delver decks would drop off completely. Creatures with 3 toughness that are part of combos would see a slight uptick, but remain unplayable
What's more likely is a mass unbanning. The format is fine right now, so banning to "shake it up" just seems a little dumb. Wizards isn't trying to reinvent the wheel every PT, right now I'd like to see either more unbanned, or more interesting cards added to the format
Shit, I hadn't even considered going Esper, but I will now
There's not enough noncreature support in Esper for Infect. You could try Abzan, but then you lose dat sweet blue splash
Too bad Grafted Exoskeleton is 6 CMC to get online. I'd say get some Hangarbacks and Arcum Dagsson but that's slow
>tfw find out mage store cancelled weekly modern tourney
>challenge random guy to pack war
>but a single pack of modern masters
felt fucking good to finally own one of those bastard cards.
>contact the man of stone on skype
>we chat, he seems like a cool guy and i heard his fakes are excellent
>order 4 mixed sets, latest quality
>get them a month later
>they're painfully obvious fakes (wrong font or blurry text) except for a few random cards like Grove of the Burnwillows
Just don't. Sure you can use KMC Double Sleeves to make them look passable (looking at Liliana of the Veil), but some of them are just awful (really not proud of Verdant Catacombs' font). Tarmogoyf is also pretty bad because of the font.
Just save up. I wanted to shortcut my way because I own everything except Liliana and the enemy fetchlands (yes, Snapcaster and Tarmogoyf included), but this won't do.
>expecting any added functionality out of Gatherer after commenting shit the bed
I swear, one of the higher-ups at WotC or Hasbro hates technology because it would explain a lot about the state of their website and Magic Online
even small things like searching specifically for named mechanics (infect, insteads of typing in the rules text area and receiving also things like "infectious") would be nice
also,maybe searching for things that make tokens or place specific types of counters
fukken wizards, no sense of right or wrong
>just got into magic because eldrazi are back and are the shit
>they just went meta and spiked in price
>ITT assblasted retards who didn't pay attention the 20 times over the last 3 weeks where I consistently posted that people should pick up the Eldrazi stuff before the meme exploded
You all have only yourselves to blame. Meanwhile I'm sitting on $1k+ that I only spent $100 to make. Since I don't even care about the deck itself I'm gonna flip it all and get myself Legacy D&T
Plus good card draw for efficient creature decks , which wizards have been pushing creatures. Why is this card still banned. Also unban Dread Return , Sword of the Meek, and Seething Song. Allow other combos to be viable besides Splinter Twin. Thopter combo is nowhere near as strong as Twin and Storm is an absolute joke without Song.
>Living End shouldn't fold to relic.
it can set you back several turns if they drop it & pop it when you have 3-4 creatures in the yard. if they just leave it sitting you can't really do anything but try to bait it with a small yard.
mildly related story, I'm on the play and pass, guy drops a T1 relic and passes back, I SSG and beast within it while he's tapped out. turns out he kept a one land hand because it had relic, he gets mana screwed and steam rolled. free win. kek
UNRELATED: is anyone having problems with firefox posting on 4chan? I keep getting a certificate error with the following "This site uses HTTP Strict Transport Security (HSTS) to specify that Firefox only connect to it securely. As a result, it is not possible to add an exception for this certificate." so I can't just tell it to shut up and ignore it. having to post from IE right now.
I've seen people get by without them by running Geist and Ghor-Clan Rampagers. Mana base cries everytime and you'll lose to burn pretty consistently. But you can run Tribal Flames for fun
If SFM is unbanned, no. Otherwise, probably yes.
The following is just my opinion, so keep that in mind. I'm going to list every card on the ban list for Modern, give my opinion of if it should be unbanned or not, and maybe a couple words why/why not.
> Ancestral Vision: unbanned
Of the 5 blue 'draw X' spells on the list, probably the weakest of the 5.
> Artifact Lands: banned
Would probably give Affinity another win-con via Disciple of the Vault and it's a pretty good tier 1 deck as is.
> Blazing Shoal: banned
lol no, keep your turn 2 kills out of modern please.
> Bloodbraid Elf: banned
Seems fine at first glance, then you remember that it's likely to cascade into K Command, LotV, Goyf, or another 3 cmc backbreaking value card in Jund.
> Chrome Mox: banned
Free mana acceleration is bad, m'kay?
> Cloudpost: banned
People complain about Tron as-is, imagine them complaining about a t3 hardcast Emrakul.
> Dark Depths: banned
Because there's not enough commonly played bounce or LD spells in Modern.
> Deathrite Shaman: banned
Too much value, he's basically a one-mana planeswalker.
> Dig Through Time: banned
Delve on a card drawing spell is too good.
> Dread Return: banned, for now
Dredge shouldn't be a thing in Modern, but if more GY hate, spells cast from GY hate, and creatures entering from other than hard cast hate come out, then maybe.
> Glimpse of Nature: banned
No, we're not going to get Legacy Elves in Modern ever.
> Green Sun's Zenith: banned
Every green deck would run 4 of them, narrows card selection.
> Hypergenesis: banned
Because Cascade is still a thing, and if you think Living End is annoying, this is 100x worse.
> JTMS: banned (but not for the reason you think)
He could probably come off the list, but WotC won't due to fear of Cawblade meta coming back in Modern and card availability. If he became unbanned, he'd be the most expensive card in Modern, period.
Continued in my next post.
Continued from: >>44598209
> Mental Misstep: 1
Every deck runs 4, narrows card selection.
> Ponder: banned
Too good card selection.
> Preordain: banned
Weaker than every blue card draw spell but Ancestral Vision on the list, but still too good because of card selection.
> Punishing Fire: banned
More-so due to time constraints and not wanting matches to go to time every round, plus it provides inevitability for any Jund deck.
> Rite of Flame
Would make Storm too good/consistent.
> Second Sunrise
Because we don't want rounds going to time every round. See: https://youtu.be/zPM2d1q3-Gc?t=13m46s
> Seething Song: banned
Again, would make Storm too consistent.
> Sensei's Divining Top: banned
If you think Miracles is bad in Legacy, imagine every deck running Top in Modern. Games would go to time every round, no question.
> Stoneforge Mystic: unbanned
With the advent of K Command and Abrupt Decay, every color other than blue has ways of dealing with her or the artifact she tutors up. Even if Batterskull stays unbanned, we can kill it with K Command or strand it in their hand with Path, Bolt, Abrupt Decay, K Command, or strip it via Thoughtseize or the K Command.
> Skullclamp: banned
Too much value, would make Affinity #1 deck to beat.
> Sword of the Meek: It's complicated
If SFM is unbanned, this stays on the ban list. If she stays on ban list, this could probably come off, but it'd be closely watched by WotC and if it ever got too oppressive or someone broke the meta with it, it'll go back on the ban list within 3 months.
> Treasure Cruise: banned
Delve on card drawing spells is too good for Modern.
> Umezawa's Jitte: banned
In a format of creatures, Jitte would rule over them all.
Again, this is just my opinion, so take it for what you will.
Ad Nauseum isnt woeful, if you can slow them down and hate them out g2-3, you can gain enough life from them that they actually cant kill you
The only horrible matchups the deck really has is Tron, Bloom and Merfolk. Everything else is winnable. Storm isnt a deck
Not too bad, it's a lot of pressure to put up with.
creature based decks often have to go into chump block mode pretty quickly, it's faster than burn, twin can be a toss up as we can be too fast but if they combo you are fucked game 1.
If you get taken into late game, you goblin grenade their face and win.
Sideboard right now has Gruul charm for getting through blockers, dismember volley, and earwig squad (no one see's this coming and can be fantastic).
I've been trying to make meme tribal work in modern for a while, and this is as good as I've gotten.
So far for FNM 10-40 for modern) I am 2 4-0, 2 3-1, 1 2-2.
I usually play Twin but when I suspect there's gonna be a lot of hate or Tron won't show up, I run 8Rack. It beats everything else and has the added bonus of making "control" players question their life choices.
For the moment, let's assume that the anon who wrote a short article about the modern ban list is right, and Stoneforge Mystic and Ancestral Recall get taken off to shake up the meta a bit and give some new toys for the pros to play with for the upcoming PT.
What decks do you think will come out of it?
Will Temur midrange become a thing?
Will Amulet Bloom just be the deck to beat because WotC didn't ban anything out of it?
Looking for constructive feedback.
4 Arbor Elf
4 Voyaging Satyr
1 Eternal Witness
1 Acidic Slime
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Beast Within
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Primal Command
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Tooth and Nail
2 Nature's Claim
2 Beast Within
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Acidic Slime
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
I run RG ramp without the Tooth and Nail combo and it works better IMO.
Take out the E-Wit, Slime, Emrakul, Primal Hunter, T&N, Harmonizes, and Overgrowths
Add in more Thrags, Spellbreaker Behemoths, Prime Times, Inferno Titans, an Urabrask, and Ruric Thars
>Too much value, he's basically a one-mana planeswalker.
I hate when people say this cause it's bullshit. He'd be actually much worse as a planeswalker, because then you can only have one out at a time and he couldn't attack. He's a one mana creature, and that makes him better
Am I dumb or is this playable
It's a slower, chunkier but harder to kill vendilion Clique
At this point in time I've given up on the idea of unbans. It won't happen unless wizards is 100% sure it won't effect the meta. Don't bother wishing for a card that will make a deck playable cause they only do that by accident
That's how I've felt about the topic of unbans since we got Nacatl and Bitterblossom back. Wizards wants to keep Modern "safe", so I've been contemplating fucking off to Legacy for a while.
Because GY hate exists, no one's bothered to do the math of what # of fatties are worth putting in a 60 card deck to have enough of a density to be able to be reanimated via Living End and not have them clutter up your hand, and the fact that most of the game-ending fatties that can protect themselves cycle themselves back into the deck upon hitting the graveyard (Blightsteel Colossus, Emrakul, etc.)
>notice foil Creeping Corrotion
Wrecking Affinity in style.
Bro fist dude, I play pretty much the same decks. And lately I've been having the feeling that bogles is more like t1.5 or even t1. I mean if you compare it to other t2 decks, I think it's stronger.
Anything that gets enabled by Survival ot Fittest/Recurring Nightmare. And yes, I am mad im not allowed my kind of fun. Can I have Dread Return by now?
It is looking like it will be a good deck and a lot of people like to try and get free wins at their LGS by playing something no one knows. If it ends well it might get to tier one point five
Mine are almost flawless but the new batch might be worse. I got mine lime six months ago. I know the new heritage druids and serum visions are hilariously awful though, and some of the shocks I got are faded (but that's really no big deal).
Always thought that was cute, but that Gifts was the cheaper way to do it: and better, because although Gifts isn't a great card in Modern it's a better card on its own than Fold into Aether.
Why are artifact lands banned? Wouldnt it just be easier to get rid of than regular land? I know affinity can use more artifacts under its control but destroy all artifacts seems to completely ruin it.
They were so broken in mirrodin standard that they auto banned them
I think that was the right decision though
Makes it too easy for affinity to splash colors and keep their artifact count high
Just do one pile shuffle as fast as you can (you can't be THAT slow, piling is easy)
Then hold your deck in one hand with your hand cupped under it, grab a fraction of your deck from the middle with the other hand and put it in the front or back of your deck, real easy, some people are really good at it and can do it 20 times real fast but all you need is 3-5 and it's good to go, hand it over for a cut
What would a meta look like with ad nauseam as a tier 1 deck? What would have to happen for this to happen? Would the deck be banned for having one of the dumbest mirror matchups in the game?
It is in modern
This. For stormchaser you need spells for him to be defensively and spells to be offensive. Other delver creatures are either not a big enough expenditure of resources to matter when they die to a bolt or they generate value that isn't boltable, like pyromancer
If Ad Nauseam was Tier 1, it means that any deck running permission/disruption has been completely nerfed. It would probably be a horrible meta, anyone and their grandma can build/add on to something to hate out ad nauseam.
Actually a great matchup for ad nauseam as unlike other combo decks, if you tap out against ad nauseam, you lose. Instant speed combo really makes the control matchup favorable
This is more problematic; but it isn't that unrealistic of a situation as decks like GR Tron are keeping disruption decks less and less playable.
This card is insane.
You can drop it on turn 2 and you get a 4/4 that fucks up the opponent's hand on EOT.
Eldrazi is cheaper to throw together but I would recommend tron because I like the things I get to do. Dig 5 for G? Check. Demonic Tutor for any land? You betcha. Throw haymakers like no other deck in the format? Oh baby! One anon described it best: It's like boxing with claymores strapped to your gloves.
I want to do something fun with Savage Ventmaw. Anybody do anything fun with it?
So you are telling me that the solution to a deck whose problem is running out of gas is a card that nets you 2-4 and has a body with haste?
This is genius! You have broken the ancient unbreakable riddle that everyone and their moms have already figured out since the talk of modern goblins was reignited when Piledriver was reprinted and every pointed out that the deck has a gas problem. God bless you anon! I can only hope the history books don't forget this inspired post.
Welp I pulled the trigger on this Eldrazi meme
Hopefully it'll work
i know it took a lot of research and endless mathematics but i finally cracked the code
It is possible
I play it and i do pretty well
If i were you i would cut scoozes for skites, aspect of hydra for coco
I dont really like treetop village, it has fucked me over alot. i would just get a 4th baloth
I also only have 18 forest so i can have surrak and thrun
Ive been playing survival/nightmare casually since 1998 when it won the world championship
I put sneak attack in it too, and i built a full power EDH deck based around that combo and a few other game winning ones
Will this see play in modern ad nauseam?
>strong hate for infect ad nauseams worst match up
>removes spellskites as well something else that can prevent ad nauseam from winning
>can counter discard spells something that can destroy ad nauseam
>even relevant in the control matchup as it can remove snapcasters, cliques and both twin creatures, slowing control down considerably
>gives mana acceleration if nothing else is necessary
Seems odd to say, but this card seems like a potential ad nauseam staple. I can see ad nauseam adding some colorless mana just to cast this spell.
I think this will be very good in the deck
Its free most of the time and it should be pretty big too
Also Conduit of Ruin
I think hes better than oblivion sower because he fetches you kozilek, ulimog, void winnower, and he makes them cost 2 less
You can tutor for an instant with merchant scroll. That's the closest you'll get I think. Unless you're running black. You could try infernal tutor or beseech the queen. Tutors are offten very narrow in magic. Try searching gatherer.
This meme seems less and less relevant every day now
I'm honestly surprised that Jund/Abzan haven't started running 1 copy of Splinterfright like how standard decks started doing towards the end. The reasoning is:
1) By the time you draw and play it, it's more than likely going to be quite large
2) A single copy of a graveyard reliant creature isn't worth bringing in graveyard hate for
3) Him slowly milling you powers up himself/Goyfs/delve, AND finds copies of Lingering Souls
I understand that he's 3 mana, but it's not really going to matter by the time you're playing him. The biggest problem I can see is that he doesn't really fit in your curve, but to me it seems outweighed by the upside.
Honestly I think it has potential to be a main board card for ad nauseam as either a 2 of or 3 of, it hates on so many different decks in modern, many of which are bad match ups, while also being useful to your gameplan.
Only potential problem would be figuring out what lands you should use to play this.
Infect can pump with just a pendlehaven or another spell and it really wouldn't matter in the long run in the ad neuseam match up/
Pretty good skite removal, agreed there, but there are better like Twisted Image that also help against Infect.
Discard spells come down turn 1-2 80% of the time so I can rarely see this countering something of value, ie something that matters against Ad.
If you are actively trying to control the board as ad, especially agaisnt Twin, then frankly you are playing the game wrong.
The ramp is just to fringe to matter most of the time and if ramp is your goal then there are much much better ways of getting there.
But the deck plays 4 oblivion sower
it costs the same and it just exiles cards, maybe you get lands
conduit gets you a wincon that you have no other way to get in the deck, and it gets cheaper
2 oblivion sower 2 conduit of ruin
>Infect can pump with just a pendlehaven or another spell and it really wouldn't matter in the long run in the ad neuseam match up
Thats why you use it in response to them using a spell, granted that might not work later in the game, but it does buy you time which is vital in the infect match up; it gives you the chance to survive to turn 4.
But it also has far more utility than twisted image.
True, but it gives you a chance to recover in case they have more discard. Which gives it some nice utility along with its other abilities.
>If you are actively trying to control the board as ad, especially agaisnt Twin, then frankly you are playing the game wrong.
The control match up for ad nauseam is very slow unless the opponent is bad and taps out turn 4. It usually results on the opponent attacking you with a single snap caster or clique until you either win or fail to assemble your combo + protection. Removing a creature can buy you extra turns to get enough pact of negations to win.
>The ramp is just to fringe to matter most of the time and if ramp is your goal then there are much much better ways of getting there.
The ramp simply means the card isn't dead in matchups where its other two abilities aren't important. It makes your ability to win on turn 4 more consistent.
Not him but
>Thats why you use it in response to them using a spell
Are we talking about proper infect pilots or "my big brother has given me his modern deck to play at FNM" here? Nobody casts 1 pump spell a turn leaving no other mana open, especially against Ad nauseam, nor do they cast every pump spell in responce to one another they just alpha strike for an OTK after a few turns of 2 infect, 2 infect etc. The only time this is proper infect removal is catching an Elf/Agent the turn they come down (assuming said turn is 1-2 and they have no mana/pendle open) and that scenario is as fringe as fringe gets.
Also as far as the "discard counter" goes, I have seen very few games that Ad Nauseam recovers from a t1 Thoughtseize and you would think that you would rather have something to dig as opposed to have something in case they decide to fuck you over further.
Ad nauseam also carries fog effects in the side board, meaning that an attempt to finish an ad nauseam player is risky as it could lead to them being fogged. At worst this card forces an infect player to over commit to protecting a creature making fog better and at best it can 2 for 1 an opponent. This card also makes using ink moth nexus early risky.
Over committing to digging against heavy discard decks is risky unless you can combo quickly after, as it can lead to you wasting all your resources only to be discarded again.
You're fucking stupid
First of all, you can inject randomness into your pile shuffle by mixing up the order you place cards in the piles, maybe this pile gets 3 cards before you go back to the other pile, if you do capriciously and without pattern, you're randomizing it
And secondly, I never claimed that one pile shuffle was all it takes to go from a completely organized deck to random
If your deck is completely piled out by function or cmc, and you pile shuffle once, then sure, the deck isn't random yet
But for practical purposes, assuming your deck is already SOMEWHAT randomized from previous games, a pile shuffle is perfectly acceptable as a randomizer
>what is Oblivion Ring
That build is dumb because you should be able to hard-cast both parts of the combo if pressed. Would you rather try and hardcast Emrakul and Zenagod, or Restoration Angel and Kiki-Jiki?
Fair point, that was a dumb.
The point still stands that I'd rather have easier pieces to hardcast that I can get out T4/T5 or earlier with ramp. And guess what? Twin is just fine with "Decay your Exarch" being a thing that happens in the format.
Not at competitive or Professional REL events. If you pile shuffle, even if you randomly move cards around it is still possible to be stacking your deck. The other player doesn't know this.
In the time that a player pile shuffles once, i can do enough overhand shuffles to sufficiently randomize my deck. Then i sufficiently randomize 3-4 more times while they do 2-3 more piles and then do a real shuffle.
Tl;dr: pile shuffling is for counting the number of cards in your deck, its not a method of randomization. Stop wasting clock and actually shuffle your deck
The opponent doesn't know your overhand shuffles aren't stacking the deck
That's why they get a chance to shuffle
I'm not convinced it takes too long to pile shuffle a 60 card deck, but that's the only real argument you have, there's no evidence that pile shuffling is "not random enough"
I mean the deck is still T1. It fucks up their plan when it hits, but they can still win matches and events despite having two combo pieces that are vulnerable to removal.
But we're probably just going to talk past each other on this one. I prefer Resto-Kiki, you prefer something else. That's fine.
When you pile shuffle, you can conceivably know the order of your cards and place them such that your deck is stacked because you literally place them in that order. An overhand shuffle takes one half if the deck and moves it into the other half, so you cannot guarantee that cards are going to be near each other.
From experience, every Thursday we have one player who pile shuffles their deck. By the time my deck is sufficiently shuffled, I have time to check my phone and respond to things. It's inherently slower because you still need to actually shuffle after you pile shuffle.
Source: magic tournament rules
"3.8 Card Shuffling
Decks must be randomized using some form of riffle and/or mash shuffle at the start of every game and whenever an instruction requires it. Randomization is defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of cards in any portion of the deck. Pile shuffling alone is not sufficiently random."
Smoked infect pretty handily with tron last weekend. This wasn't a case of poor draws for them either. Spellskite and Pyroclasm throw a decent wrench into the works and all that's maindeck. I don't think I even touched my sideboard.
What does /tg/ think about my merfolk list? Anything I should take out or add?
I normally do when I need it, but I have a second in the board for matchups where I will want it more like Twin and Burn. I currently am thinking about just putting the second in the board and bringing in the one Remand though, I have way too much Twin and Tron in my meta.
does it even matter when your opponent is going to shuffle it anyway? why do we bother shuffling our decks at all? just hand it over to the opponent and let them shuffle from the start. they can't conceivable know the order of your cards. is there any reason not to do this?
>have tier 2 deck that I love to pieces
>just can't beat living end or tron
>only an okay matchup against the rest of the competitive scene
>mops up scrub decks
I just love turn 1 inquisition, turn 2 blood ghast, turn 3 removal, turn 4 Tasigur/Phyrexian Obliterator
There is no tier 2 deck that runs either blood ghast or Obliterator so I am going to assume you mean "deck I like that isn't tier 1" as opposed to actually tier 2.
Like every other scrub.
I'm a fucking idiot. I own like, 3 leylines and took them out six months ago because the yard wasn't part of the meta locally, then didn't play for six months and fucking forgot about them.
The info is outdated. The matchup is even now.
Mainboard Spellskite is very good.
Mainboard Ulamog forces Twin to have an answer much faster.
Sideboard EVERYTHING TRON HAS means Twin is going to have a bad time.
I'm a Twinfag and usually hold my own, but sometimes it's really hard to have your combo quickly AND have an answer to Spellskite.
jk I'm rooting for you. i really want monoblack to be viable. what do you side against tron?
LEL so tonight this guy shows up with a jank brew he swears is going to be the new hotness and break the meta and all this shit. so he starts off with faithless looting, lightning axes my goyf, casts catalog EOT, remands my lingering souls, just plays control while looting and I notice he's putting a lot of creatures in his yard. then he discards a living end, drops snapcaster, and tells me he flashes back living end for 0
he was so ass blasted when I told him that doesn't work and called the judge. IT'S RIGHT THERE ON THE FUCKING GATHERER PAGE THAT YOU CAN'T FLASHBACK IT LOL. so he boils over and starts swearing and packs his cards up and leaves without even signing the result slip. free win. shitbrewers are so god damn funny.
Theoretically that's the case, but practically you want to make sure that your deck is random so you don't have land clumps, and your opponents want to make sure you didn't stack your deck
forgot muh face. it was hard not to just lose my shit laughing at this dude tho like damn son you gonna put that much money in something no one else is doing at least find out if it works that way first.
Fulminator Mage, haven't figured out any good hate for it other than just turning my creatures sideways really fast Unfortunately, I only own one Fulminator Mage, I should buy another now that I'm not dirt poor.
i don't plan on blowing almost 20 on a sideboard card anytime soon so i know where you're at.
would you be open to testing evil presence? i figure it's like a mini blood moon. Also, do you have ghost quarters or tec edges?
i know, but it definitely seems like a subpar play. i'm too poor to even go for bloodghasts so i don't look down because he doesn't have lilis or something
I didn't know Evil Presence existed, I might try and pick up a few of those. I like them because I also run Gary, so they're giving me devotion as well as screwing with their acceleration, but it ultimately seems weak. And no, I can't run Ghost Quarter, can't afford a land that doesn't produce B mana else I can't cast Phyrexian Obliterator.
Yeah, destruction is a lot better than swampification because then you can extract it but at least it doesn't slow you down to bad at B.
If you have board space you can put quarters in there and swap them for removal against tron.
There's also urborg which lets you main them but that has a risk still
>Twin can usually win before Tron can assemble
Not true. Tron has a turn 3 tron about 40% of the time on the draw, and 30% of the time on the play. Turn 4 Tron is about 30%/20% respectively. So in any given match Tron is pretty likely to assemble before the twin combo, even more so if on the play. That's irrelevant though, because tron doesn't want to assemble tron immediately vs. twin, it wants to slap down a spellskite, a grove/egg, and hold up nature's claim/rending volley. Then, and only then, will it aggressively be looking for the tron/eye of ugin/ulamog/emrakul combo.