Wait no never mind it died again edition
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If you removed ask the S Tier casters, who would be the new S Tier for your faction?
With cygnar, i imagine seige would be top, with stryker2 (assuming our S tier being haley2/3 and caine2). If you count seige and stryker2 as top/S tier (a stretch I think), i dunno who'd be up there. Nemo3 or Haley1 maybe?
Not that bad of a jump actually. You went from large base heavy faction to a small base heavy faction.
All your hard habits from Legion won't really apply to Ret. Meaning its a brand new world for you.
There have been rumblings of an edition change soon.
PP have been pretty hesitant to do that, so they have been making more and more non-fix changes thru the Errata.
There's more than a few people not happy with the game in its current state, and like it or not, PP does listen to us despite what people say.
We are expecting big things. At the very least some nerfing.
Not much to talk about. The game has big chasms of shit to not-shit in models, so lists are only posted by new guys.
Any mechanical or theorized changes are instantly shot down by Trolls. Who respond only with GitGud.
No one paints because Warmachine.
These threads are only spry during spoiler season. I used to make these threads back in peak popularity in TG. I would have to remake it more than once a day because we kept on hitting our bump limit.
That was when people were still figuring things out. It was fun then since people believed so much in the game that they would make nearly anything work.
Meh. The game could use a shakeup. I don't care if its through an edition change or major sweeping Errata.
It is... Across factions. Legion vs Circle is viable.
What is not balanced is the units you take for it.
Expect to use the same models over and over again to feel like things are even. Makes the game feel samey and make the player feel perpetually pigeonholed.
It's one of the reasons we have so many faction hoppers.
Tournament season is over. No new model releases or spoilers (which isn't that much of a bad thing, in my opinion). Christmas season is generally slow.
We really ought to encourage people to post more WIP and painting projects in this thread.
I can post some.
Here's my newly painted Spawning Vessel, my in progress Typhon, and my newly primed Scythean claws made out of leftover Carnivean bits and Tervigon armblades.
Yeah, but that's the Warmachine min/maxer in you talking.
X Wing had taken a lot of my interest because I can always find a game without minimax it.
You don't have to min max of you don't want to. It's not required like it is in Warmachine.
>You don't have to min max of you don't want to.
You sure do if you want to win against a serious opponent, just like in Warmachine, or MTG, or Warhampster, or Malifaux, or Infinity, or
It's almost like you need to bring your A-game to compete with your opponent's A-game regardless of what game you're playing or something.
But X-wing is kind of from a completely different batch of games. To rephrase my question, are warmahordes the most popular game like warhammer that isn't warhammer?
But the environment fostered is a big difference.
X Wing has a thriving casual base alongside a strong tournament base. You can muck about in casual until you build your forces for competitive. That's what I've been doing and I've gotten the cards I needed as promos for playing in tourneys.
Warmachine has the stigma of not even allowing that. I would say rightly so.
Rural anon from last thread.
LGS owner refuses to touch anything that isn't mtg, tournie wise, but will look into carrying product.
Our casual play looks like this:
Me - Khador
Buddy1 - Trollbloods
Buddy2 - CoC
That Guy - Scyrah.
We've agreed to do battlebox games for a bit, then move up to 15 points and stay there until we're comfortable with the rules.
I've been designated "Terrain maker" for the group. Since this is going to be fairly casual, kitchen-table Warmahordes (does such a beast actually exist), is there anything I should no when creating terrain? I've read the Steamroller guidelines, but I come from a 15mm background, where the more terrain, the better.
What should I do to ensure terrain makes for a challenging (but fair) setup for those factions?
I wouldn't mind team Astra bullshit too much if they actually contributed something of worth that isn't obvious.
>Cryx is good because it's Cryx.
WOW, glad to see that championship wisdom coming through.
Cliffs Notes Version:
>YO DAWG. I HAVE RECURSION AND HAVE UNDERCOSTED INFANTRY. ALONGSIDE EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TOOL TO INSURE THEY DELIVER THEIR HOT STEAMY LOAD.
>AND IF THAT DON'T WORK I GOT MEANS TO MANUFACTURE A STEAMY LOAD DELIVERED RIGHT TO WHERE YOU DON'T WANT IT
>OH AND I CAN DO THIS IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS
But like everything in life. I don't think I can properly explain it without telling you to play it.
The non meme-shit summary is pretty much. "I have so many attack vectors that you either were unable to defend against or I was able to manufacture."
See, the shit I need from "champs" are wisdom that I've picked up from years of play. How to stagger units, put jack/beast force in triange/inverse triangle with 2 inches between depending on circumstances for pt trade potential. How to deploy on the fundamental level like determining where your tarpit infantry goes in relation to scenario, learning to choose your casualties, etc.
Challenging but fair terrain?
Well, you want at least 2x forest templates, 2x hills, 3x walls.
Generally terrain setups are symmetrical.
You can also make stuff like ruins, or buildings.
No, you shouldn't set up the board symmetrically Anon.
The point with the rolloff at the start of the game is you either get the advantage of going first, or you get the advantage of choosing the side that better suits you/doesn't suit your opponent.
You need to pick. Not L O L won the first dice roll got an advantage for the rest of the game.
See, that looks like what I've read for the steamroller guidelines, but also looks really sparse to me. I understand the arguments against a lot of terrain (topheavy models, fiddly measuring, git gud, felt) but yeah, no. I figured 10-12 pieces, a mixture of what you suggested as well as some water, and maybe some dynamic terrain like the scenario tables at cons use.
Because the meta has been figured out. There's not a lot to discuss.
There's no unit building, lore discussion or custom ideas to be had in Warmahordes, so the general doesn't have anywhere near the resiliency of things like Battletech and 40k.
With infinity it's more that you have some strict requirements in what you need your list to do, but what models you choose to do that with isn't as important as long as they can do it
Looking to start legion coming from skorne. Pucked up a couple things and was wondering what you guys thought of this Lylyth2 list:
From what I remember, Warmahordes lacks rules for destroying terrain features. Having high terrain density maps would be completely fine if you could destroy buildings, walls and forests simply by having a heavy or colossal beast/ jack stampede through it to create new paths.
The reason why most tables are sparse is because huge based models will have a really tough time being placed properly if there's a lot of stuff.
I'm probably inviting trouble from the more competitive crowd, but couldn't you just use the "destroying structures" rules from prime, with a few tweaks? or (I'm not sure if it does or not) lift any rules for smashing terrain up from the IKRPG
If you can get used to middling around awkwardly between Ret's supposed combined arms superiority, and their general inability to remove enough models during a Feat turn advantage to reliably survive past turn 3, you'll enjoy them.
What's bothersome is that custom ideas usually get shat upon immediately, even with the disclaimer that they're only intended for casual fun.
Like that custom 'caster/'lock idea; it would be interesting to make it work, and balancing could come with play testing to iron out all of the broken combos, but it always gets trashed by the general without much reasonable discussion.
Just about every model can be made to work effectively, but some combinations have such streamlined synergy that they're more efficient to use, sometimes objectively so.
What's bothersome to many players is how those synergies can make them feel cornered into using particular model combinations in a competitive environment.
It's entirely possible to build atypical, weird army lists that have competitive viability, but the learning curve to do so can be a turn off for players when they have tried and true net lists to parrot instead.
Consider checking out some of the flat, neoprene (mouse pad material) terrain packs.
You can specify Warmachine/Hordes and get a bundle of the stuff that's sized appropriately for the model scale while not breaking your bank.
I think it's insecurity on the fact that it may catch on and change the game that they spent so much time memorizing and learning. PP does listen to its players after all.
Our resident Tournament player was ragging on GuildBall for the longest time saying how it was unbalanced kickstarted shit and that it would never catch on.
Me and my group of friends tried it, loved it and told him to sod off. Now every time he asks us for a game we respond "I'm here for GuildBall!" Or "I already got a game lined up"
I really play GB/XWing more then WMH nowadays. Some more variety in how people play them.
Four months ago i started with a battlebox and a devout. No i have finished my over 60 miniature army. Behold the glory of Menoth.
Custom casters really don't work for this game.
there are too many factors at work and so many things are contextual. Who's the boss format illustrates nicely how different casters become depending on the faction.
I'm completely fine with a seperate Casual format that has actual unit options and a custom caster maker along with some different rules.
Tournie format can still exist but there needs to be an EDH for warmahordes
Problem is how ridiculously difficult it is to assign point values. Do you think people are going keep spells like convection and pay points for it? Unearthly rage is a meh to a game breaker depending on faction how would the points be assigned then?
Do people only min max characters in D&D? This is for a non competitive for fun format, if a dude is trying to really abuse it, why are you playing him?
Spells that are good in combination can still remain high cost of they're not useful alone, that's a basic of game theory
Ok, first of all, that is not game theory.
secondly, the entire point of these custom builds are to get an optimal thing going, whatever it may be in terms of comp or actual success.
I would start by separating existing spells into categories: nukes, support, control, debuffs, stuff like that, and then poll the community to rank spells by their perceived strength in their respective categories.
Stronger spells would cost more and there could even be a limit as to how many nukes/support/debuffs or whatever a single caster can have.
As for stats and weapons, make stats and weapon POW start at 1 and then have the point cost for increasing them raise exponentially the higher they get, and have a maximum cap for those numbers (Max DEF 17, Max ARM 18, Max STR 10, etc etc).
Community poll for a pool of all the most generic, non-model-type specific Feats from each faction and allow the creator to choose from that pool.
That's where my brain goes with it. Release rules for free and let the community alpha, beta, and omega test it.
Afternoon bump with glorious Nemo.
This is kinda it.
The solved meta basically boils down to winning being either:
1) skew like a motherfucker
2) threaten assassination from downtown while skewing like a motherfucker
3) have an insane scenario feat
I'm hoping the new edition or errata comes soon and radically changes the viability of the various skews in game. I've played the game since the beginning of MK2, and one of the main draws for the game to me used to be that the typical list -- even competitive -- was fairly balanced and varied compared to stuff like 40k. This isn't true anymore; sure, part is just the game being solved over time, but that was pre-Bradigus
(full disclosure: I play Bradigus), pre-MMM, pre-EE, pre-Fist.
Problem is the stuff that wins is not fun to play, and if good lists are not fun, WMH won't see growth as new players find little motivation to buy into the game to play against the skew and simon-says lists that win games.
Not that it's not competitive, unbeatable, or whatever -- I'm not complaining that it's overpowered, I'm complaining that it's unfun.
It's pretty balanced, the lists that balance out at the top tier tend to have relatively low variation within the list itself.
Basically, at the start of MK2, all of the original WM factions had about the same model count, and the Hordes factions all had about the same model count (but smaller than the WM factions due to them being newer), and Cryx shat on everyone. Since then, the releases have brought most factions up to par with Cryx without doing much to increase Cryx's overall power level. As a result, non-Cryx factions still have that list of models that let them get shit on by Cryx if they saw play, and newer, better models (note: newer does not necessarily mean better, but
outside of Skorneweaker factions tend to get stronger releases), so a lot of the old stuff doesn't see the table.
Do you think there needs to be more alternate formats? I think there's a lot of potential there to shake things up and encourage both casuals and competitive players to try something new. You could also go about it in so many different ways.
>normal Warmachine with a living banned/restricted list
>break all units down into tiers and do tier based tournaments
>limited factions formats
>mono faction formats
>limited pool of 4-5 casters that you can use in any faction
>normal Warmachine with all league special units available
>singleton restriction on all models
Problem with that comparison is that WM is not a game purely based around building yourself up.
EDH came from the desire to play the impractical big flashy shit. WM doesn't really have impractical flashy shit to make it work.
Theme forces were the closest thing but PP cocked that up pretty badly.
>WM doesn't really have impractical flashy shit to make it work.
That's a silly argument for a game chock full of units that are really cool thematically but are unfortunately not good enough to justify running them.
Most jacks, battle engines, and colossals/gargantuans are big and flashy but impractical as hell.
OMG look .. a wild pakcage appeared at my door!
what could it be?
sigh... it's not a dragon dildo is it?
>mfw when it's throne of everblight
yep definetly cryx. This must be my cryxmas package...
i think this leviathan will do alot of work with my mortenebra list.
dub trips wasted.. or pointing out the truth?? (probably wasted)
damn my family got together and got me some stuff i defeintly needed w/o asking me.
necro surgeon and overlords
i defiently want to try mort out with deathjack and that leviathan and 3 helldivers..
>How much other Cryx do you have and what other factions do you play?
well i have 4 units of Statyx raiders and 1 unit of blood witches (for tier 4 fun with Skarre 2.) i have 1/2 a unit of mechanithralls (not counting new stuff) 2 units of bane thralls, 1 unit of bane knights, 2 units of bile thralls. 2 units of drudges, gaspy2 denny 1/2, skarre 1/2, goreshade 1, terminus.
forgot to mention i also have faction wise:
i had protectorate but i sold most of that off. kept the skorne and cyngars. I really liked the way skorne played BUT felt so under powered fighitng some factions competetive wise.
i really needed that ragman too nice
ooh this was in the mecanitrhall box. nice!
and that about wraps up that box.. defiently my cryxmas presents from my family.
just noticed that one of the brute thralls is broken at the ankles... and one of the packs of overlords is missing the pointing arm. that's ok .. PP replacements go go. they're good about this stuff.
i think this will be my mortenebra list
Leviathan (to get ranged shots to trigger overrdirve
reaper (see leviathan)
Necrotech +scrapthrall (had 1 point to blow)
my body and soul list..
Cephalyx mindslaver & Drudges
Cephalyx mindslaver & Drudges
necrosurgeon & stich thralls
Necrosurgeon & Stich thralls
Litch 2 list
Bane lord Tartarus
Banethralls + UA
Mechanithralls (max) + scarlock commander
Stayxis blood witches (for removal of healing/tough)
Bile Thralls (min)
Master Gunner dougal Macnaile
Aikos Scourge of Meredius
Cylena Raefyll & nyss hunters (max)
the devil's shadow mutineers
Liking the Morty list. Combined arms with the Leviathan used to catch people off guard.
Lich2 looks like a standard build.
I like your Deneghra list. I always forget to bring range elements when I play her.
New to the game (getting into Warhammer first but Hordes looks cool too) and I'm curious about the factions.
Can someone give me a brief summary of each faction, their strengths/weaknesses, which ones are good for beginners? I really like the way Cryx, Khador, and Scyrah models look.
There are no real "beginner" factions unless you are going very specific.
>Cryx str: High volume of one of the best infantry in the game. These infantry can be brought back usually. Warcasters are extremely powerful
>Cryx Weakness: Because your faction is so strong, every competent player has a list designed to counter yours. Almost no shooting available in the faction. Models can and will die in droves
>Khador Str: Very competant warcasters that can almost all end the fight themselves. Like Cryx, very good infantry spam, but actually incorporate more guns that aren't long or accurate, but powerful.
>Khador Weakness: ZERO warjack support. Khador army can't run jacks at all and is entirely reliant on it's infantry to carry you through. Lacks trickyness and relies on superior stats to carry through.
>Scyrah str: Good and varied guns that's designed to handle multitude of problems. Good at scalping out enemy pieces
>scyrah weakness: No durability. all infantry are single wounders with no access to tough currently. Their armors are low and defense isn't high enough to protect them. Has a very rock paper scissors kind of list comp where picking the wrong list against the enemy can result in a very one sided game.
Every faction can do a little bit of everything, but here are the three you like somewhat summarized:
>Great infantry recursion options
>OK to good warjacks
>Fantastic spells that you can sling from so far away that most things can't reach you to retaliate
>Mostly shitty warjacks, but some of your character jacks are really good (don't ever try to run a lot of warjacks)
>Infantry is your bread and butter, from conscripts that earned the name Winterguard Death Star, to some difficult to remove elite troops
>Have access to the single most Maim! Burn! Kill! individual model in the game, and he's one of your casters, the Butcher
>meh to OK warjacks, but several lists can reasonably run two to three heavies
>your most reliable options are your infantry, which, while fantastic at shooting and in melee, have victim stats and so they themselves are very vulnerable
>every caster except maybe two are so balanced that it hurts, and you'll practically never play a list that gives you the security of being able to make a series of fuck ups and still have enough of your stuff on the table to have a chance at a comeback.
(I posted >>44573335, btw)
Honestly, what I want to see as a format is "FA:One-derful" - Everything that is not FA:C is FA:1, theme forces do not change this.
While it would radically alter balance between factions, I think the resulting game would be more fun (for both casual and serious players) and no less competitive and, honestly, lead to more interesting games.
I think a better way of doing it would just be to give non-reach melee attacks a 1" range.
On a similar note, do you think gargantuans would be played more if they all had a larger melee range? Say 3"?
I would be down for this if they also remove base to base from the game.
It works cut down on awkwardly crammed together models because PP really likes figures that overhang their base.
There hasn't been an errata yet (there should be this month or next or whatever), but nobody knows what will be in it.
Reach isn't changing, I can tell you that much for sure. Changing it to 1" would turn the game upside down. They wouldn't do that unless maybe they came out with Mk. III.