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D&D 4e General: Discuss anything directly related to D&D 4e here.

If you are GMing, remember...
1. To strongly consider giving out at least one free "tax feat," like Expertise and pre-errata Melee Training.
2. To use Monster Manual 3/Monster Vault/Monster Vault: Nentir Vale/Dark Sun Creature Catalog math. Avoid or manually update anything with Monster Manual 1 or 2 math.
3. That skill challenges have always been scene-framing devices for the GM, that players should never be overtly told that they are in a skill challenge, and that the Rules Compendium has the most up-to-date skill DCs and skill challenge rules.

If you would like assistance with character optimization, tell us what the what the rest of the players are playing, what books are allowed, your starting level, the highest level you expect to reach, what free feats you receive, whether or not dragonmarks and HP-boosting backgrounds are allowed, whether or not themes are allowed, your starting equipment, and how much you dislike item-dependent builds.

If you wish to talk about settings, 4e's settings are Points of Light (the planes and the natural world's past empires are heavily detailed in various sourcebooks and magazines), 4e Forgotten Realms, 4e Eberron, 4e Dark Sun, and whatever setting you would like to bring into 4e.

Nentir Vale locations: http://web.archive.org/web/20130520012550/http://community.wizards.com/nentir_vale/wiki/Nentir_Vale_Locations
Points of Light timeline (ignore everything else on this mostly-fanon wiki): http://nentirvale.wikidot.com/world
D&D 4e Compendium (for those who still have Insider subscriptions): http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/database.aspx
PDFs for 4e books: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-5cE1l_HXL4ZjA3NWFmMTYtYzY2ZS00MTNiLWE0ZmEtMzQ0ZTc5ZDRiM2M2&usp=sharing_eid&ts=567871fd#list
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>>44525615

Unfortunately, damage type-switchers, damage type-adders, and damage keywords have always been a profoundly murky, gray area in the rules.

There has never been a clear, unambiguous answer to this matter, much to the chagrin of people who wish to make use of Frostcheese, radiant mafia, Psychic Lock, and Resounding Thunder builds through less conventional means (e.g. Malec-Keth Janissary).

This is something you will have to run through your DM.
>>
What class is the best leader?

Like, actually best at healing and support?
>>
>>44531959

In terms of raw force multiplication and support, the warlord is easily the all-around best leader in the game provided that most of your party is equipped with strong basic attacks. The Tactical Presence or Resourceful Presence warlord is the cream of the crop here, particularly by the paragon tier thanks to the superlative Battle Captain paragon path from the Player's Handbook 1.

In a party with middling basic attacks, on the other hand, the title of "best leader" is much too dependent on what everyone else is playing. You should manually assess the strengths and weaknesses of the party, then pick a leader class to capitalize on those strengths and minimize those weaknesses.

As far as the *worst* leader in the game is concerned, I would give that title to the Charisma/Wisdom-based Mantle of Clarity ardent. It is horrendously fragile for a front-line character (chain, no shield, poor Fortitude and Reflex), and it has very little support of note.

Is there any other information you can provide to help narrow down a class?
>>
>>44532411
>Is there any other information you can provide to help narrow down a class?
No game, I was just curious, I like warlords myself. Generally run them myself when I go leader unless my party is doing that aforementioned sucking on basic attacks or I want to mix it up.
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>>44532411
Is battle captain really as good as infernal strategist?
>>
>>44533299

>Cry Havoc (11th level): On the first round of combat (or both the first and the surprise round if your allies gain a surprise round), allies who start their turn within 10 squares of you gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls.

>Battle Inspiration (16th level): When you use your inspiring word power, allies you heal gain a +1 power bonus to attack rolls and a +1 power bonus to speed until the end of your next turn. If you selected the Tactical Presence class feature, the ally gains bonuses equal to your Intelligence modifier instead.

For a Tactical Presence warlord, absolutely; for a Resourceful Presence warlord, not so much. By 16th level, a Tactical Presence warlord with the Fight On paragon feat can grant a +6 power bonus to attack rolls and speed as part of their 4/encounter Inspiring Word.

The Infernal Strategist is one of the best paragon paths for a Resourceful Presence warlord, make no mistake, but Pliable Command is not as good as it seems when only one Commanding Presence can apply per action point, and when Resourceful Presence riders are no more outstanding than Tactical Presence riders.
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>>44532411
Why are so many of the best Paragon Paths in PHB1?
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>>44535083
Same reason most of the gamebreakers in 3.X were in the core rulebooks.

It was a first book and they had nothing else to compare things to, so a number of options ended up being really really good.
>>
>>44535083

For the same reason that some of the most powerful class options in D&D 3.5 were in the Player's Handbook: writers simply do not know what they are doing with the very first book of a game, and so character options tend to be wildly underpowered or overpowered.
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I noticed there are quite a few books missing from the google+ account. Does anyone have access to it or was it just found account?
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>>44537386
What ones?

>>44535195
>>44535228
But the earlier editions didn't suffer from that problem.
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>>44537437
Off the top of my head:

Dungeon Master's Kit
Heroes of the Feywild
Heroes of the Elemental Chaos
Neverwinter Campaign Setting
Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium
Halls of Undermountain
Into the Unknown: The Dungeon Survival Handbook
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>>44537622
I have all of those, but I don't know how to get them into the GDrive.
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>>44537711
I guess the ideal would be a MEGA account like the 5e thread.
>>
I would also like to request that if we get a Drive/Mega with all the books we try to get all of the Dragon/Dungeon Magazines as well. They are becoming increasingly harder to find now a days.
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>>44538277
Wizards are putting them up on DnDClassics, but I've got all of those too, so I can put things up here if needed.
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>>44538374
Hadn't even heard of Dndclassics until now. I just googled it. 3 bucks per magazine is dumb. Especially when you'll usually only use one article out each one.
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>>44537711
Do you have Book 4 of Madness at Gardmore Abbey? Would you mind posting it?
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>>44538665
http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1451809478
I've also got the poster map, cards, tiles, and tokens, in addition to the four books.
>>
>>44537437
>But the earlier editions didn't suffer from that problem.

Earlier editions weren't made by Wizards.

Or more specifically, Mike Mearls(and Monte Cook) had no involvement in D&D development before 3.x
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>>44538758
>and Monte Cook
Cook was involved in late-2e supplementary material.

Actually, Cook's 2e material isn't that bad.
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>>44538713
Thanks anon, you fucking rock! I only had the first 3 books. The maps and the extras would be awesome too.
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>>44538787
Cards: http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1451809936
Tiles: http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1451809951
Tokens: http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1451809978

The Cards file is both the Deck of Many Things and the Treasure Cards.
>>
>>44538853
>>44538713
Would you (or anyone else) happen to have Reavers of Harkenwold as well?
>>
>Be in character builder
>See Kobolds no longer have shifty as an option
So was the Dungeon Survival Handbook just an errata for the MM statblock?
>>
>>44538943
http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1451810819

Need the rest of the D&D Essentials DM Kit (tokens, screen, DM book)?
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>>44539022
I do! With that my 4e collection is complete.
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>>44539185
DM Book: http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1451812211
DM Screen: http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1451812252
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>>44539348
You're doing god's work anon. Thanks!
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>>44537437
>But the earlier editions didn't suffer from that problem.
I'll take your word for it... but keep in mind that previous editions were more or less just evolutions of the same game.
>>
>>44535083
It gave us champion of order, which lets my Fighter || Paladin attack mark violators twice, and for that, I'll forever be grateful.
>>
>DM is designing new 'classes' and stat blocks wholesale based on our old characters
>mash up of PC and monster mechanics with unique new mechanics
>wants to run a Vs style crossover battle for the multiverse with lots of homages to our old games, even ones not from D&D

Madman, he is a Madman I tell you!
>>
>>44531234
How do Essentials classes compare to the regular ones? Especially the new versions of the core classes, knight, thief and so on.
>>
>>44543102
Less flexible, less support, and damage drops off after paragon IIRC. On the other hand, being basic attack based, they are great for warlords and other attack granters.

I kinda like the thief, I think having a class be based entirely around move powers is a cool idea.

I'm happy the Strike! guy is taking the thief in that direction.
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>>44531234

My group would like to try out 4E, but I just don't know where to start.

Would 4E work for a wuxia, Exalted kind of game? Maybe with inherent bonuses instead of magic items?
>>
>>44543427
Absolutely. Start with getting the PHB and the offline builder for the players, and DMG1/2 for the DM along with MM3 and Monster Vault. These should be all linked in this thread.

Exalted type play would either necessitate higher levels, or at least tweaking skills so you can do amazing things right away. I think it could run Wuxia as long as that's how you fluff stuff right out of the gate.
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>>44543570

All right, sounds good. Should I check out Essentials? Is there a final errata around?
>>
>>44544946
The character builder has all the errata included, as well as all the essentials stuff for players.

DMG2 has some updated stuff for skill challenges and a table for skill difficulties iirc, but otherwise I' don't think any other errata you need to look out for.
>>
>>44545042

Is this what I should be looking for?

https://rogue-elements.obsidianportal.com/wikis/offline-character-builder
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>>44545098
>https://rogue-elements.obsidianportal.com/wikis/offline-character-builder

That's the one I'm using at least.
>>
>>44545156

All right, great! Thanks, man.
>>
>>44545198
No prob! Good luck with your game.
>>
It's snowing outside (rare where I live) and I am therefore trying to build a cold based sorcerer just for fun.

Does cold adaption stack with my dragon soul, and if so, does it also apply to ignoring cold resistance?
>>
Where is the Virtuous Recovery Feat?
>>
>>44548125
Divine Power
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>>44548207
K thanks.
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>>44548313
Not using the builder?

I couldn't imagine playing 4e without it.
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>>44548348
Where's the builder?

Is it this one?>>44545098
>>
>>44548551
yepp
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>>44548588
OK cool.
Thanks!
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>>44548588
Internalize the Basic Kata is not in the builder.
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>>44549119
It is for me. If you just installed/updated it, you need to restart once for the updates to work.
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>>44549177
OK
>>
>>44539348
Would you happen to have the Monster Vault adventure Cairn of the Winter King?
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>>44549303
>>44549177
OK I actually followed the goddamn instruction file and I think it worked.
>>
>>44549854
>>44549177

No it didn't.
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>>44549885
You sure you followed everything? Had the cmd box come up and load for a few minutes and then restart and everything?
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>>44549944
cmd box came up and crashed after a little bit.
>>
>>44549969
>>44549944
Now it's just applying base elements forever.
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>>44549969
I think I remember reading that that is normal
>>44550007
Yep, working as intended
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>>44550007
>>44549969
>>44549944
Wait now it's applying new elements. So things should be good.
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>>44550024
>>44550019
It works now!
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>>44550297
Awesome! You are now a step closer to making your character than my players managed to get on their own.

Slightly related for anyone with the experience: are cohort rules any good? I was thinking I'd go ahead and make an "animate dead"/"create automaton" ritual that makes "permanent" zombies/robot servants based on the cohort rules (basically, the ritual would cost as much as hiring the cohort, skill roll needed calculated from cost somehow, IDK).
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>>44538713
Could you post the other books as well?
>>
So hey. Didn't know Eladrin Knight was a thing until like... an hour ago.

I now want to play one really, really hard.
>>
Do 4e clones exist?
Is there a market for them?
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>>44553283
Strike! is kind of a 4e retro-clone on the combat side.
13th Age marketed itself as one.
Unchained Heroes is also close. Out of those only Strike! retains tactical movement
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>>44553283
I honestly would really like to see a fan 4.5 with like all the math fixes/monster HP/damage/feat tax shit all built in.


Might even be possible to include it as a house rule option for CB loader like the inherent bonus options is, depending on how extensive the changes are,
>>
>>44545098
>>44545156
Anyone have the offline version of Adventure Tool with the Encounter Builder in it?

Or the Rule Compendium
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>>44554046
I'd be interested in this as well.
>>
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I actually liked "Player's Handbook Races: Tieflings".I kinda wish they did it on Dwarves, but they only had the one for Tieflings and Dragonborn.
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I've built an optimized intimidater and an optimized stealthy guy

What skill should I optimize for next?
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>>44553208

An eladrin fighter (knight) multiclassed into swordmage for the Intelligent Blademaster feat is one of the best possible fighter (knight) builds... in the heroic tier. By the paragon tier, it gets severely outshone by the half-elf Versatile Master.

>>44557025

Arcana is by far the most powerful skill in the entire game when properly optimized for. Between the wizard's Chameleon's Mask, Spook, and Suggestion cantrips; the Binding Mastery and Exploration Mastery heroic feats; the Sorcerous Vision paragon feat (remember that passive checks are still checks as per the Player's Handbook 1 and the Rules Compendium); and many, many rituals, Arcana optimization can snap the skill system grievously in half.
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>>44557118
Funny how pretty much all optimization for knights revolves around finding some way to avoid using strength

Because somehow, despite being in essentials, they still made a defender class with primary and secondary stats that apply to the same defense

They had to know it was a terrible idea, they just had to
>>
>>44557865

This is, incidentally, why Strength/Constitution-based fighters and wardens make subpar *defenders*, although Strength/Constitution wardens can at least pretend to be one-trick-pony strikers via Crippling Crush.

Mike Mearls downgrading Melee Training due to the release of Essentials martials did absolutely nothing to stop said Essentials martials in any way. All it really did was make a tax feat worse, yet still mandatory for those with no recourse for melee basic attacks.
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>>44557948
It's even worse for fighters and knights due to only recieving a fort bonus from their class defense bonus.

Barbarians were fine, they only use constitution a little bit so you can build them strength/dex instead, and they're strikers rather than defenders, but wardens and fighters just make no sense mechanically
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>>44553492
I'm working on one. Just a pet project, obviously, so it'll never be big, but it's fun to write.

Do you know a good place for me to find damage benchmarks (damage someone ought to be doing at x level), all the math fixes and taxes, etc.? I haven't yet found a good collection of that.
>>
Are there any ways to get radiant damage at heroic without using the weapon slot?
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>>44559157
Do you mean At-will?
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>>44559186
I'm trying to an ambitious double-dip at level 8. My goal is to combine some of these:

- Sarifal Feywarden + Firewind Blade
- Path of the Scarred feat for +1 fire damage to trigger
- Half-Elf Twin Strike with Martial Dilettante for two encounter Twin Strikes and Rain of Blows

- Pelor Boon + Solar Enemy

Currently doing Half-Elf Fighter|Runepriest with Word of Diminishment, because vulnerability 2 triggers the boon. I'm just wondering if I can squeeze the 2-5 extra damage by dealing radiant on top.
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>>44559254
Not in heroic tier, and not without the soulforged paragon path past then
>>
What feat should I take for a Thri-Kreen Bard?
>>
>>44559620
valorous, cunning or prescient bard?
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>>44559642
Valorous.
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>>44559655
free feat taxes?
>>
>>44557118
My only problem with the swordmage multiclass is that then I can't go PPs like feytouched that let me damage on teleports, which is just thematically awesome.

I mean, I understand that the alternative is that I grab trainning and only get half-Int to damage, but I want warlock MC to work out so hard...
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>>44559669
No, no free feat taxes.
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>>44559687
take battle song expertise

bard of all trades is also fun
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>>44559717
I'm going Bard of All Trades.
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>>44540177
4e was an evolution of 3.5e design.
>>
>>44559732
Agreed, but it was also a fresh start, much like 3rd was from AD&D. Up until that point, you could more or less use stuff from your previous version of the game with little problem, forming a continuous line of refinement, while 3rd, 4th and 5th are all very different games.
>>
>>44559620
>thri-kreen
>Con/Cha bard

Really?
>>
>>44559973
He asked last thread what would be a non-stat synergy combination to challenge himself.
>>
>>44559983
Not the same guy.
>>
>>44559983
Uh, no, that was me

and I made a prescient bard, so I could at least get a secondary stat boosted
>>
>>44559996
>>44559993
In my defense, who would have thought that there'd be two thri kreen bards? I mean, seriously!
>>
>>44560208
I just imagine his songs as like cicadas.
>>
>>44560322
Addendum:

Thousands of Cicadas, Crickets, and Katydids all singing in their own little bug orchestra.
>>
>>44560363
>>44560322
I'd think they'd be particular to fiddles for cultural reasons.
>>
>>44560398
I did not mention grasshoppers anywhere in my post.
>>
I've been fluffing dragonborn as members of other humanoid races raised or otherwise influenced by dragons, so they all look like other races, and merely have draconic qualities

What fluffy homebrew stuff have other people come up with for their games?
>>
>>44562301
Bloodborne-like, everyone's technically humans, you manifest your "race" because of the blood transfusion you got.
>>
>page 9
>>
Who here makes random characters just for fun?

Like, go into the CB, press "quickbuild" and have it build without specifying anything... then make something okay out of that clusterfuck.
>>
>>44564767
I might try that.
>>
What are the fighter feat taxes?
>>
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Had anybody compiled a list of non-combat-related feats for 4e?
>>
>>44566589
A guy made PDFs for all of the skill-powers, but I don't know of any non-combat list.
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>>44566366
The usual. Expertise/defenses/probably that feat that lets them punish twice in epic.
>>
>>44568457
>probably that feat that lets them punish twice in epic
See the issue then is kinda what qualifies as a feat tax to give out for free
Is it just the math fixes or would we qualify anything that "everyone of class X SHOULD take"
>>
I'm going to run a 4e Dark Sun game next week in my group, and as a foreverplayer, this is basically my first stint at DMing. I was wondering if anyone here has gone through the setting before and have any tips or ideas that could help me out here? Thanks in advance senpaitachi.
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>>44570896
Is it a long campaign or a single shot?
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>>44570994
Long campaign, planning to do it sandbox style with multiple plot hooks, that kind of thing.
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>>44571104
You should read the 4e Eye on Dark Sun articles, for one.

Important things include understanding travel and environment, a good use of hazards and making sure players realize that you don't try to cross a dangerous area without preparation. Make sure to focus on the cities as central hubs that hold probably even more dangers than.

Pay careful attention to player backgrounds and themes because Dark Sun is in the end a game about society, scarcity and the greed that arises from it.
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>>44571330
Thanks for the articles lad.

And as for characters and the setting in the cities and outside them, I'm having a preliminary session where we'll all meet up and create the characters together whilst I explain to them - and let them add any good ideas they have - on how this world works. Hopefully this means they'll make characters specific to the setting and only one person wants to be a magic user currently (and he full well knows the consequences of that in Dark Sun, so I'm trusting him with that).
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>>44564767
>Try this
>Kenku Wizard with implement expertise (tome)
Could have been worse imo
>>
How do you fix solos /4eg/?
>>
Anyone got PDFs of the dragon magazines? Any idea where I can grab them?
>>
>>44575665
What I did was give them multiple initiative slots, allow them to get more condition saves, split them up into three or four stages (e.g fresh, then a chase scene, then bloodcrazed or something), just basically make them act like multiple monsters occupying one space.

I actually just handcraft all my solos rather than take from the books. If it's a solo, it's important.
>>
>>44575760
>split them up into three or four stages
I've heard this advice before, but it has always been unclear about how much HP a stage gets (obviously this varies by level and such, but like say, relative to a normal monster of that level and role).
How do you typically figure this?
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>>44575842
I just take normal solo health and divide it into however many stages there are. The party still needs to go through all the HP, but they don't realise it since it's effectively a different monster they are fighting in each stage.

Also, if you can tell your players are just getting bored wacking away at HP, just skip to the next stage early. A lot of making solos good is making it more about the narrative than the mechanics, I reckon.
>>
I'm trying to find ways to trigger Ancient Soul other than Nusemnee's Atonement (direct damage you deal to allies to yourself).

Some other options I've found are Hailstorm Ki Focus (lv of lighting+cold on nat 1s on attack roll) and my current favorite, Monk's Desert Wind Flurry of Blows (fire damage, target is one creature so can be directed at self).

There are also some barbarian powers that let you hurt yourself, but what I'd love to find is something that lets you take damage when you hit an enemy so you could use Dragonborn Channeling.
>>
>>44577774
Found a few more:

Erupting Flare (Wizard at-will 1)
Elemental Spirits (Seeker at-will 1)
Burning Flux (Psion at-will 3) (liking this one more and more, very easy to trigger multiple times without needing to hit). Little problematic statwise, however.
>>
>>44577774
>>44578202
The problem is that you need to do enough damage to pierce your own resistance or dragon soul doesn't work

This is why you use nusemnee's atonement, it pierces your resistance, making it reliable
>>
>>44537622
>>44538277
If you two wouldn't mind helping me out making a list of everything we're missing in the drive account, I'd be more than happy to upload a complete collection to 4shared/mega/drive.

I'm fairly certain I have a lot of the magazines floating around somewhere.

>>44537711
Might also need your help for our ultimate /4eg/ compendium, stick around!
>>
Where is the errata at?
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