My friend told me I should post this thread not on on /a, but here, on /tg, cuz it's the best board in 4chan and the people here are awesome and their minds will satisfy me. Until here with the buttlicking.
I know there were probably millions of discussions about Evangelion, but I haven't read many and will appreciate intersting analysis and thoughts about its philosophy, psychology, theology, symbolism etc. Cuz a dry look might find the symbolism chaotic and meaningless, and the world views a little shallow and mundane (I don't, but I would like to read some interpretation that will help understand it).
There are so many, but I can't think of any questions right now, so just write what you got from the series, and your interpretation to parts of it, those that are pretty clear or more vague, theories and so...
This is more suited for /m/, anon. That board is all about mecha. Many of us here at /tg/ are fans of Evangelion, we made an entire game about it (when's Third Edition coming out, damn it?), but we don't really debate the symbolism and interpretations unless it's relevant to another topic
Evangelion's not all that deep when you get down to it. It looks deep with the imagery, and the vagueness that was mostly caused by budget cuts, but the real meaning isn't all that deep.
It's basically an anti-hikkikomori anime. It shows a world where people could solve most of their problems by interacting more, but can't, because they're afraid of being hurt, rejected, or ruining their pride. Yet, these are all essential to human interaction. Without pain, people just retreat into an inner, isolated world where nobody interacts with them.
The main message of the series is that socialization and taking risks hurt, but they're a necessary part of human existence. With them, even the darkest times can be good. But we need to reach out, state our feelings, and accept that not every moment will be happy. Expecting everything to be good and running away from bad moments just leads to a downward spiral.
They just made it more confusing so that people would want to find the answer at the core of it, and buy tie-ins to try and prove that their interpretation of the series is correct.
But, as Anno himself keeps repeating, meaning is created by the watchers, not the creators. Whatever you think Evangelion is about, you're probably right.
"The main message of the series is that socialization and taking risks hurt, but they're a necessary part of human existence. With them, even the darkest times can be good. But we need to reach out, state our feelings, and accept that not every moment will be happy. Expecting everything to be good and running away from bad moments just leads to a downward spiral."
To be fair, that message does need stated more often than not...
>But, as Anno himself keeps repeating, meaning is created by the watchers, not the creators. Whatever you think Evangelion is about, you're probably right.
For me it's all about barely contained God-Monsters bringing down the power and glory old testament style on things that should not be, and a very scary woman making the Apocalypse dance to her tune.
I know, right? Who would have guessed? It's a shame, I really liked what little they had revealed. Maybe if they had shared more they could have found the community support needed to keep working on it.
One of the big deals with Evangelion is that it's a lot less meaningful than it looks.Taking apart the religious imagery shows that it's actually an interesting case of intentional obfuscation by using familiar terms - Which makes a hilarious amount of sense from an in-universe perspective, and adds "depth" on a meta one.
In-universe, every time any sort of religious symbolism is being used it's being used to hide what's really going on. Instead of "Aliens" they use "Angels", instead of "Lobotomized Aliens" they use "Evangelion." Naming the angels after names in the bible adds a layer, but if you note it's incredibly unhelpful and is mostly done scattershot.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are actually a completely different set of documents found in Antarctica, rather than around the Dead Sea, and are mostly notable for being ancient lithograms that tell a certain theory of how the world was formed, and what First Impact theoretically was. Calling them the Dead Sea Scrolls lets them casually throw the term around without actually letting loose any interesting information - the Antarctic Revelations might be a more useful term.
The religious symbology also appears because many of the head members of the secret organization, Nerve and Seele, are deeply spiritual and work hard to connect their religion to the new revelations, causing them to decide to do their end of the world bullshit eventually.
On a meta scale, the use of religious terms in intentionally obfuscating to the audience as well. When the viewing audience sees easy, low-ball references like Angel, Evangelion, latin-sounding names, and so forth, we're trained to look for hidden meaning - Hence the hilarious amount of interpretation into Eva. In truth, Evangalion is an extremely simple series about your bog-standard, "Kaiju are invading we have the robots to fix it!" that we've seen since Mazinger and Getter Robo. Scene-for-scene, episode-to-episode, it's an exact use of their plot structure.
I strongly agree for the most part- except that Dr. Hell had clearer motives than the angels, and Professor Kabuto probably did not want to turn humanity into LCL once he was defeated. Also no conspiracies.
As to connect this to /tg/?
This is a brilliant way to write a campaign.
Take ANY plot that you've seen a million times before. Ork invasion. A dark lord trying to end the world. Old Man Jeeves is trying to run the kids out of the amusement park with a spooky skeleton costume.
Add COMPLETELY unrelated religious imagery, and just start re-naming things that are plot relevant. They're not Orcs, they're Angels. They're not Knights, they're Evangelions. He isn't a Dark Lord Bob, he's Jesus Estevan Diabolos the Third.
Is it a cheap trick? Sure, but that's what the second lair of in-character obfuscating comes into play. There is a third player who is intentionally making sure that the two sides have no chance of coming to terms by confusing the language with easy terms - Sure, the Orks are unlikely to seek a non-violent answer anyways, but the Players might try something tricky... if it wasn't the fact that everyone everywhere calls the Orks the Asura instead, and says that they're going to start Second Vishnu as their master plan. Oh, and they've been handing out magic items and tattoos that cause crazy glowing and other neat stuff to occur, making it *seem* as though they might not just be glowing orks.
Bam, instant plot de-rails and wasting so much time on trying to figure out what the fuck is going on in the most boring, standard plot available, and when the game eventually grinds to a halt and gets stopped before the end like every long-term campaign ever you can chuckle and "keep your secrets" to yourself.
Just like Evangelion.
Don't forget Ideon. There's definitely some Ideon in there. Hell, they even both end with a lackluster and confusing television episode that's rendered dubiously canon when the extremely depressing movie ending comes out.
>The Dead Sea Scrolls are actually a completely different set of documents found in Antarctica, rather than around the Dead Sea, and are mostly notable for being ancient lithograms
When is this stated?
See, I chalk this up to having an extra couple of years of listening to the fan theories, thinking about the symbolism, and post-term pondering of what the plot "really" was.
Eva had the advantage of having a year or two after the end of their own series to come up with a big, fancy finale ala End of Evangelion. If everything had gone as planned, I fully expect that Eva would have had a much more "standard" ending featuring a big stompy monster and probably Shinji crying the monster to death because he's so nice or some shit.
So, thank god for budgetary concerns...?
Like a lot of things, it's more intuited and explained after the fact.
It's stated in I think Rebirth that the Dead Sea Scrolls were found just before they found Adam back before second impact, or it was stated in the extra material and books that came about after the fact.
Yes. Beta probably out by the end of the year.
It'd have been out already, probably, but they decided to do away with grid-based combat a few months ago so that meant rebalancing weapons and combat talents.
Honestly, the focus on individual relationships and conspiracies is what *makes* Evangelion for me nowadays.
Sure, the big stompy robot fights were cool and fun, but it (in retrospect) wasn't anything actually new - In fact a lot of them were pretty boring, just wait until Shinju shows up and somehow has the powers he needs to eat the big bad thing.
But the human issues and the emphasis that maybe, the big robot bits were practically just a side-show to what was REALLY important, and that they're using 13-year-olds because there's no real chance that they'll put things together and save the world before the end? That was cool.
I'll be amazed if it comes out, doubly if its good. But I do love AdEva so here is hoping.
Well, I won't argue that the budget cuts were a huge part of it.
But there was actually a good amount of EoE that had been decided in the proposal. Not all of it, definitely, but at least some parts.
And I'm mostly referring to the series itself. It may have just been done for shock value, yes; and other giant robot animes have definitely done it, too; but there are a few non-standard things amongst the standard Evangelion plot. Just a few.
The big robot bits are a backdrop. Sort of like how Gundam was supposed to be.
Amusingly, this makes Eva work in many ways. Which is why there are a lot of good fics based on it. Slice of Life, Cosmic Horror, Comedy. I'll get my sentai/technothriller New Emergency Response Vector: Evangelion done some time.
I liked the old beta and the skill system is okay. I don't agree with all their decisions regarding what the system allows for and doesn't from a character standpoint, but as far as combat is concerned it should come out well if they're properly able to properly translate to gridless and leave enough time in the beta prior release to hammer out balance.
This time around they seem much more open about outside opinions on the crunch, and v2.5 was a clusterfuck were every response to criticism was reactive and toxic for a short while, and then everyone kind of moved on and wanted to forget about it, and two biggest buttheads from that fiasco are completely gone this time around.
So a little off topic but whatevs, which Eva does /tg/ prefer/accept? Movies or series? Also for series, series ending or the movie ending?
Personally I first encountered Eva via toonami showing the first movie. Made it little over an hour in and couldn't take it because nothing was explained and seemed a little petty and over hyped.
Then I saw their showing of the second movie (all the way through this time) and thought I should give it another go.
Shortly after I was diving head first into the original series and it's movies.
I'm a fan of the original series with movie ending (but series ending IS needed too) and have yet to see past part 2.22 of the reboot.
Do you think there's similarity between Shinji and Ender (Ender's Game)? They both individuals used by the system to destroy aliens (never mind the detailes about this one), they both deal with human interaction- hurt others and being hurt... Just bringing that up.
I have come to the conclusion that there are only three kinds of fan opinions to Eva.
A. OMG SO AWESUM SO DEEP!
B. WTF IS THIS OVERHYPED PIECE OF SHIT?
C. An actual deep discussion that acknowledges both it's strengths and weaknesses, while discussing the philosophical and moral issues at stake.
This thread falls under the third variant. And this pleases me.
I watched the original series back in the day and thought it was a ton of fun, but since then I've seen a lot more anime and more shows in general, and now I can't really stand it.
I do like the reboot series, for taking some neat chances and for upping the production values into something actually good, with great fight scenes and truncated character development that lets it be actually interesting. It's probably going to go all insane and tits up, though.
Personally, I think that Evangelion worked when it was released, and that without the cultural context of that specific point in time it's kind of meh. Still a great history piece if you're planning on actually getting to *know* something about the industry, though.
I liked 3.0.
I also like Angelic Days, Nobody Dies, and Cast in Gold.
I'd say so. But ender can solve his problems rather than bitch about them like a stereotypical mech pilot.
I don't recall anything shinning solved on his own that didn't involve him nearly getting killed by an angel or someone smacking him upside the head.
>C. An actual deep discussion that acknowledges both it's strengths and weaknesses, while discussing the philosophical and moral issues at stake.
>This thread falls under the third variant. And this pleases me.
I don't know who you are anon, but I like you.
>bitch about them like a stereotypical mech pilot.
Nigga you ever seen any other mecha anime BESIDE Eva and Gundam? Mecha protags who aren't whiny bitches are Grade-A badass motherfuckers.
No, Ender's game is 80% a story about how competent Ender and his siblings are, and how they grow past what the adults/government intended for them, while Shinji is made safely incompetent so that the plot can do whatever it wants with him.
I've never really seen a similarity. Ender was different because he was deceived into doing it, but was actually willing to since he was training to do it.
Shinji just sorta got roped in
This also why, ironically, many harem anime that were classic just don't work. They where something at the time, and people built on them. Retroactively, this makes them look worse. Nature of the beast.
>Bam, instant plot de-rails and wasting so much time on trying to figure out what the fuck is going on in the most boring, standard plot available, and when the game eventually grinds to a halt and gets stopped before the end like every long-term campaign ever you can chuckle and "keep your secrets" to yourself.
I disagree that it has to be a derailed clusterfuck that goes nowhere. AE, naturally, does this all the goddamn time (it's part of the whole deal, really) and many games manage to have a good ending without just it being a clusterfuck that makes no sense.
Even I don't like that.
The plot made perfect since, it was just only 50% of it we actually got to see.
I don't have much of a preference between the Rebuild Movies or the Original Series, but I do prefer the Series ending over EoE.
What about Shinji and Warhammer 40k?
Stupid phone, ruining images. Have this instead.
We doing that AdEva/Pacific Rim cross over stuff again?
When I rewatched it, I got the same feeling I got when I saw Star Wars 3 before 2 (don't ask how I did it, I still don't know).
Was it good? Yes. Did I know WTF was going on? No. That was 3.0s problem. It skipped a number and confused everyone.
And we all know what confusion leads to.
Fuck no. God no.
Its the Chuunin Exam Day of Evangelion fics.
Though I am biased as I play Exalted with Greg.
Nah, it was just a joke.
>What about Shinji and Warhammer 40k?
It starts amusing then turns into shit when the children turn into orks, the technical staff celebrate Shinji's cheesy action persona without any self-awareness, and then he starts foiling terrorist attempts and sleeping naked with females and turning lesbians straight.
Gurren lagaan main protagonist was a shit (forgive me, his name escapes me) up until the respective "seasons" big bad fights.
And don't talk shit about gundam unless you have seen a large portion of it. Gundam 00 had some neat characters, and the original mobile suit gundam had a good main too.
I will concede that in zeta camiel was a little cunt who flip-flopped like a mother fucker in his growth.
Thinking back on it, doesn't Shinji actually man up for a good chunk of the show? He starts training with the robots, makes friends at school, starts earning his praise. He actually tries against the Angels.
The only problem being that the Angels are weird and freaky and tend to render 99% of all tactics moot.
>Though I am biased as I play Exalted with Greg.
Hell, S&WH40k is the whole reason this persona exist in the first place...
But yeah, as someone whose interacted with both Greg and BPen, Greg is more likely to get shit done while Bpen is the grander thinker of the two.
My problem with Greg's stuff is it tends to veer way off course and devolve into a barrage of pop culture references and lolsorandumb junk. Amusing and it gives his stories a lot of signature personality, but I dropped Nobody Dies once the plot got totally sidelined.
Yeah, unlike >>34703039
They're both great writers deep down, but both got side tracked near the beginning of the end to the point their original plot goals got away from them.
Nope, he never mans up. He makes a couple friends at school (mostly because near-death experiences drives people closer) but he never gets emotionally close to them or turn to them for support. And his reason for piloting robots is always flipflopping between wanting to be praised by his dad, fearing his dad, and wanting to feel needed (being more afraid of being alone than dying to alien monsters).
He, never once, gets on the fucking robot because it's the right thing to do.
Except in Rebuild 2.22, and then everything goes to shit.
I did like the reboots, of course the production is outstanding, but they lack the melancholic atmosphere of the original series. And some angels were horribly changed, in my opnion. Also the third one is a big mess, though eyepatch Asuka is awesome, and she is less annoying than she was in the series.
I think what I like most in Eva is the atmosphere, the drawing, the mechas, the soundtrack. The strong images, meaningful or not. EoE was a mindblow.
>Except in Rebuild 2.22, and then everything goes to shit.
Probably one of the reasons 3.0 gets so much flak, Shinji finally got in the damn robot, but now the worlds gonna shit on him for it.
To be fair, the show would not be as famous as it is today if it continued that path.
His biggest character flaw wasn't just a sub story. It constantly came up while he was fighting which added to the stress/plot of the show as a whole. This also allowed them to make the series ending actually work/help give an excuse to unveil how fucked up everyone is in a giant ultimatum type of way.
World's gonna shit on him no matter what he does. 4.0 comes out and my guess is he'll finally "man up" and become some kind of ubermensch. Or just tell everyone to lay off since they're no better and he's trying, god damn it.
>4.0 comes out and my guess is he'll finally "man up" and become some kind of ubermensch. Or just tell everyone to lay off since they're no better and he's trying, god damn it.
My bet is on Rei becoming God, then sitting everyone down to tell them this...
...Also giving Rei Q headpats.
The thing I liked best about it was the solid sock to the jaw it gave. Yeah, I could've done the underdog thing, Shinji rising above his problems, kicking his dads angels and Seeles asses, and making a harem.
Did it do it? Fuck no. He has a breakdown, everything goes to shit, and everyone but him and the comatose kraut become orange juice.
It deconstructs the entire mecha genre, and does it in a way that gives you a metaphorical knife to the gut.
The religious overtones were just icing on the cake. A cake baked with broken glass.
This is why tg is the best place to talk about things. On /m/ or /a/, this would already be a waifu wars shitstorm.
None of the evangelion characters were worth waifu-ing
We all have that problem with Greg. Thankfully, his pop culture references in game have also gone down. And gaming with them has made me a better writer.
I highly recommend Cast in Gold, as well. Its actually what got me into Exalted in the first place.
I wouldn't expect mecha fans to enjoy a show where the entire point is that mecha shows are stupid and lead to emotional breakdowns and insanity.
I for one can appreciate that Eva was tearing apart the whole idea of "teenage protagonist pilot's distant father's creation to fight monsters and becomes a hero," but then again my favorite mecha stuff isn't really in that area anyway.
Guy you responded to here.
I honestly like how the executed shinji in the show. Yeah he was a little shit, but still an intriguing character/character problems.
If it was any other way, I'm unsure if I would like it as much as I do, because characters that never have any problems other that "these assholes are trying to kill me" are honestly too boring and 2-dimensional.
Evangelion's theological elements are a red herring. Staff are on record saying that they were put in to look cool and if they'd known they were writing for a western audience too, they wouldn't have used them.
Evangelion is primarily a character study, and is narrative concerns the so-called hedgehog's dilemma, to wit, that people desire closeness with one another but keep their distance out of fear of being hurt. Fear of living and fear of other people are issues that come up again and again, mostly concerning Shinji.
For the record, Rebuild can be pretty much ignored, as no one knows what's going on in it yet and it is narratively and tonally divorced from NGE.
For me it's just an opinion.
It does add to the story, in that it's the fucking setup to all the shit going down (god's pissed, and humanity is about to get bent over the table)
I'm not seeing a whole lot of definitive proof one way or the other. I like the idea more as a talking point for fans who don't just "waifu" a show and can't discuss rationally/handle criticism even if it's for the shows benefit.
Why would they? Everyone knows it. The writers have admitted it themselves.
Anyone who argued otherwise would be in some kind of denial.
I mean, its still cool. Good fiction is all about elaborate slight of hand anyway, and the religious symbolism in Eva is iconic as fuck. So who cares if it didn't really mean anything as long as you enjoyed watching it?
A show like this will be pretty divorced from reality as it is, so slapping on a religious topcoat works pretty well IMO, even if it doesn't do anything much for the plot or the underlying themes. There ain't much short of an outright miracle which will make a mech viable, and that's pretty much what an AT field is...
Furthermore, while Freudian elements come up a lot in NGE, don't try and map everything onto a Freudian framework. They're used as Anno felt appropriate and set aside otherwise.
Interestingly, though, Shinji and Asuka are both textbook cases of avoidant personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder with comorbid depressive disorders, so it's not like he didn't do his homework.
True that, but it circles back to my point. I enjoy characters who have problems that arnt solved by shooting it, and in EVAs case, it really makes the character stand out, wether you hate him for it or not.
>as no one knows what's going on in it
The Asuka/Shinji dynamic comes off as particularly darkly funny and vicious since they really do share a ton in common, really are interested in each other, and both would benefit from a closer relationship (even if it wasn't romantic in the end).
But Anno doesn't wave the conventional anime magic wand where the people with social disorders somehow magically come to an understanding.
And Shinji has bigger balls than anyone will ever give him credit for.
Simon? He's literally Shinji until he fights Adine (she's got the vagina mouth robot) or whatever her face was.
Shinji could be my waifu.
I'm almost entirely convinced that the NERV staff therapist ran away after the first attack and they never found a replacement.
Fucking everyone in the show needs one.
Oh I forgot to add; Shinji isn't anywhere as a pussy as people make him out to be. Yes, he is a whiny scared little shit riddled with issues but up until the last chunk of the show (where his sanity goes away) he's actually decently capable.
-He has a crazy ass all-or-nothing charge on Shamshel, the dildo angel and wins against all odds.
-He manage to find his balls and land a miracle shot on Ramiel.
-Manage to have a tag team attack with Asuka, who is notoriously hard to work with. They win the Israfel fight via teamwork and some genuine hard work and practice.
-He then get Asuka out of lava. I need to remind people that an eva's pilot feel the pain of their mech. So this supposedly balls-less sack of shit WENT INTO FUCKING LAVA to save a raging cunt who may or may not even like him.
Perfectly possible, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt until it's finished.
Personally I just think that Anno is no longer a compelling artist now that he's happy and healthy. I don't say that to be mean, it's just that it's hard to write about what we saw in NGE from an outside perspective. One thing you can say for NGE, sloppy as it often is, is that it comes off as fairly raw.
Technically Shinji's psychological wellbeing is Misato's job. Kaji is Asuka's handler in the same capacity (until she's transferred).
Neither being beacons of mental health or stable social relationships, this doesn't help two hormone-addled mentally ill child soldiers at all.
>I'm almost entirely convinced that the NERV staff therapist ran away after the first attack and they never found a replacement.
>Fucking everyone in the show needs one.
Technically, I think that was Risuko's job...
You know, the Christmas Cake Scientist with an Electra complex bigger than the Geofront?
> So this supposedly balls-less sack of shit WENT INTO FUCKING LAVA to save a raging cunt who may or may not even like him.
We never cut to the inside of unit 01 during that scene. We just see the Eva holding onto unit 02 and keeping Asuka from falling to her death.
I like to imagine that it was just Shinji sitting here, screaming his head off in agony... but refusing to let go.
Fucker didn't even have D-Type equipment on.
Mommy's boy turned out just as planned. Most of the time at least. And when not, Mommy just kills shit dead with extreme brutality until everything's back on track.
They had other bases, it was only the Geofront (AKA Black Moon) that was in Japan.
Hell, there was a scene in EoE where SEELE started off their attack with a MAGI Hack, using all the other MAGI systems to crack into Nerv Japan.
I think it adds to the imagery, all the cross-like explosions, and terms like Lance of Longinus, The Dead Sea Scrolls, Eva- Eve, Adam etc. It builds mystery and mysticism, and fits really good to the post apocalyptic world with giant robots fighting aliens. I'm just interested if someone has an idea of how it can actually be analyzed, the giant Rei, and the Evas.
(Looked up for this pic in the middle of the night and it scared the shit out of me)
My point was there's plenty more bitchy pilots in shows than just gundams and Eva.
Another is code geass.
Lelouch is so bad at piloting, literally any major conflict he gets in his mech losses at least 2 limbs. Out of mech he plays the bad-ass, but has the most retarded daddy issues, some weird obsession for his sister, and a nepoleaonic complex like no other.
Then there's susaku, who is a carbon copy of lelouch, but with real fucking morals, real mech pilot skills, and real tension outside of "niggas try in' to kill me/gonna kill some niggas"
Japan consider the mentally ill to be useless to society. They are also a very defeatist society (remember the expression 'it can't be helped) where failure is never forgiven. So to them, it is shameful to seek help for your problem as you bring shame on yourself as well as you family. They just suck it up and keep it to themselves.
If you keep this in mind, you'll see Evangelion in a different (and sadder) light.
AT fields are neat things. Though he might not have been very certain of how well it would insulate before jumping in.
I really hope she was never intended to keep anyone but the Magi balanced, but the way NERV worked, it wouldn't surprise me. Probably headhunted by Yui for the job...
I know this is a minor thing, but remember the scene where they brought in Unit 03 from the US? In the Japanese version, they had an actual American voice the chopper pilot. Considering their budget at the time, that's dedication.
>Japan consider the mentally ill to be useless to society. They are also a very defeatist society (remember the expression 'it can't be helped) where failure is never forgiven. So to them, it is shameful to seek help for your problem as you bring shame on yourself as well as you family. They just suck it up and keep it to themselves.
>If you keep this in mind, you'll see Evangelion in a different (and sadder) light.
Evangelion: Why you need to stop this shit Japan - Anno
I agree to a degree.
Is it right for /tg/ to be better board for anime than /a/? Like, holy shit I've been itching to real talk anime with friends for a while but all of us like too different of genres.
Scratch the itch /tg/.
To expand upon this; the show is about how everyone is fucked up in a society where it is shameful/wrong to express those problems and seek help.
Remember the stuff about AT Fields, isolations and hedgehog dillemas? Keep that in mind when it come to the cultural context. People often forget that, even if the religious symbolism make no sense it doesn't change the fact that Anno's issues at the time heavily colored the world of Evangelion and it's characters.
>I'm almost entirely convinced that the NERV staff therapist ran away after the first attack and they never found a replacement.
>Fucking everyone in the show needs one.
Okay, this confused me for a long time too. But it turns out it is less bullshit than we would assume.
Basically, IRL Japan hates psychotherapy. There is a very real cultural expectation that you are supposed to suffer in silence.
You hate your job? Fuck you, shut up. No one ever said you deserved a job you enjoyed. Now due your duty to the emperor and go to work every day.
You are sad because your wife died? Fuck you, shut up. Everyone has dead people. Get over it. Now due your duty to the emperor and go to work every day.
And so on. This was still going on full force in the 90s, especially given their rough economy at the time.
Even today, there are not very many therapists in Japan. And the vast majority of the ones that do exist are either from oversees, or had to train overseas. And most Japanese people would rather fake a traffic accident and kill themselves than let their friends, family, or co-workers know they had to seek mental help.
This doesn't make sense to us, because we generally accept that crazy people need help sometimes. But in Japan, admitting that you need someone else to give you grief counseling is like walking into the street with your hands covered in your own shit, begging random strangers to wash your hands for you because you are too fucking incompetent to do it yourself.
That is why there are no therapists in Eva. Because Japan doesn't really 'do' therapists.
This is almost certainly in no way related to them being a country full of fucking depressed people who have stopped breeding and have huge suicide rates.
What I meant was that their budget was spinning down to a few shoestrings. I've seen top tier anime not even bother with the separate language part, even for relatively important stuff. The fact that they did this anyway gets a small nod from me.
I'm probably a "bad" Eva fan but what really catches my interest in the show is the mythology - which, of course, is barely in the show. The eggs, ancient aliens, "robots" being lobotomized alien monsters, etc.
This might just be one of the reasons why Eva had such the initial appeal it had. Well, beside Asuka and Rei. It was written during a really bad period for Japan by a depressed otaku who had grown jaded and discontent with his life and was struggling with his mental problems. That might just be what feel so genuine about the show; the pain, confusion and isolation of the poor, crazy depressed Hideaki Anno.
We often forget nowadays that he wasn't always the japanese George Lucas but simply a depressed and tortured artist on his last straw, given free reign to make a show just so Gainax could have a scam and declare bankruptcy.
I hope they stay away from trying to shoehorn psychological disorders into the game, instead choosing to focus on personal problems and logical results of the kind of stress pilots are exposed to.
I really don't have much hope for that kind of system in general, though.
I love you guys too!
Eh, that's not so bad, most of it is pretty interesting...
>Evangelion: Why you need to stop this shit, Japan - Anno
You guys are awesome, keep it up!
Probably the wrong place to say this, but FF crossovers with the mythology are boundless. I recall reading one where the Angels originally battled the C'tan, another where the combine created them.
The difference is, I feel like Anno actually understands why Eva worked the first time. Whatever faults you might find in the result, NGE was Anno pouring all of his issues onto the screen.
George Lucas never really 'got' Star Wars. He put his name on it, but it was only the product we know because other people took his bad ideas, rewrote the fuck out of them, and came up with a good product despite his input. When George Lucas tried to do the prequels he was essentially operating blind, operating on the decades old leftover notes of better writers.
Anno in Rebuild... either doesn't want to do 90's NGE again, or finds himself unable to get himself back into that dark place he used to live in. Maybe both.
There's also the fact that despite the 'japanese' aspect, a lot of it's core message is arguably universal. Pain, isolation, confusion and depression are things that universally affect the human race.
That's actually something that makes Eva work really well for crossovers. The mythology is vague enough that you can transplant the characters into almost anything and it works out really well.
>Anno in Rebuild... either doesn't want to do 90's NGE again, or finds himself unable to get himself back into that dark place he used to live in. Maybe both.
Definately both. Evangelion only worked when he was mentally disturbed and at the bottom of the barrel. It doesn't help that he does shit just for the sake of money because he got super lucky and now he's famous for making THE anime of the late '90
>George Lucas never really 'got' Star Wars. He put his name on it, but it was only the product we know because other people took his bad ideas, rewrote the fuck out of them, and came up with a good product despite his input. When George Lucas tried to do the prequels he was essentially operating blind, operating on the decades old leftover notes of better writers.
Nah, Lucas "got" the "Story" of Star Wars, he did write the original after all...
Problem is, his version of the "Story" is a tale of Luke's accession to Jedi-hood and Anakin's Redemption from the Dark Side, and NOTHING outside of that.
The Prequels sucked because we already knew how it was going to end, so everything else was needless padding in the story of Anakin's rise and fall.
>Pain, isolation, confusion and depression are things that universally affect the human race.
Indeed, especially with the young and disfranchised.
Young George Lucas was fresh out of school and had a script full of references and homages to other great works. Old George Lucas didn't care about that stuff. because his ego had gotten to him.
I was watching a documentary on Star Wars just today, and I really felt that he did get it using his own words explaining it, or get it enough to disprove the idea that he doesn't get it or appreciate it. In his own words, back then, he did like what he was doing and he liked the characters.
Rather, George's focus on special effects and the development of the technology behind them, his standards and all was actually quite admirable.
says George was under much stricter constraints before, which gradually disappeared with it's success.
Now it's also George's pursuit of those improved special effects that got him a lot of ire, because he was constantly altering the original, and took it too far in some cases. However his contributions to cinema and technology are because of this, noteworthy. He did drive technology and technique forward with his work, spending his money and invested heavily in it.
Anno has nothing on George Lucas.
What Anno has done is so much worse, and he doesn't even have karma behind him. Imagine if George Lucas remade the original trilogy and rewrote the characters/setting so they better matched his agenda of how they should be liked?
The Han-Solo incident aside, George has never gone that far.
Anno isn't exactly pushing any technological boundaries with his movies either.
Anyone not J.J Abrams. Abrams is a good MARKETER not a good writer. He's good at building hype and mystery but in delivery he has no fucking clue and just rehash shit from his childhood. Expect Star Wars 7, 8 and 9 to be shitty rehash of the original trilogy.
They really are 2 sides of the same coin. Different, yet still very similar.
One thinks end result is what's key, other says the method matters more. (Both flip flop in second season but whatever)
One REALLY wants to kill his dad, the other really wants to atone.
Both have the smarts, but one is more talented at piloting, the other does mental gymnastics.
Both are tools in one sense or another. One getting used to get his way, the other using people.
Point is there are only minor differences between the two
To be fair, a good marketer is what Star Wars needs right now.
To anyone who is not a dedicated SW fan already, the only thing in recent memory for them is the prequels, which were notoriously bad.
And now Lucas, the father of the franchise, is out of the picture. So you have this unreliable element of uncertainty in the mix.
The major focus of Star Wars 7, as far as the owners are concerned, needs to be to rebuild faith in the franchise for the common viewer.
For that, you need someone like Abrams. They cant afford a visionary or a risk taker, well reviewed enjoyable safe grey to set the foundation is more than enough for them right now.
It's not Totoro's schtick in the first place. He likes his creative liberty, and when working on established IPs he does so only if he's allowed to give his own spin on things - what Disney wants with SW is to make it fresh and new but also recognizable for the older audiences (the ones who will be taking their kids to watch it and spend money on the new merchandise), so they need to keep the old baggage canon. Except for the EU because fuck the EU, I'm so glad they're doing that.
Additionally, Totoro has more of a "let's revive the horror genre" agenda currently.
But Anno isn't changing the series. Its clear they're different. If Lucas had remade the trilogy and not tried to marginalize the originals, or perhaps made like a remake via another format, that would get less ire. Or should.
Take a moment and read what you just wrote.
Anno is copying NGE nearly perfectly visually, using it's designs, voice actors, musical themes and characterization, and showing them off in a remake.
He is remaking Evangelion.
I'm not going to get into speculations about it being a sequel, that's actually unnecessary. In both cases he would be returning to Evangelion and rewriting it's characters. The worst case scenario is that it actually is a sequel for some.
Anno is changing the series and how it's seen and underestood with Rebuild. It is marginalizing the originals by making light of the original characters and it's setting.
George never did that, because it would be horrible. What George did was at worst Han Solo, and the rest was him trying to incorporate everything he had invested into developing film-making techniques and technology into his greatest work.
If George was like Anno, the prequels would have been remakes of the original trilogy, which focuses on rewriting the original characters in degrading or glorified ways to suit his personal tastes.
But thats wrong. He isn't changing anything. Thats the point. The original still exists. He even acknowledged this in giving Asuka a different name.
He isn't marginalizing the originals or making light of anything. He's making a NEW Evangelion. Not a REPLACEMENT Evangelion.
Thats where the difference is. Thats why you have the tape moment, when it skips the track to something new.
Thats the entire point. Something new.
How could Rei appear for a second before Shinji when he first arrived Tokyo 3 in the first episode, when she is later seen injured and hospitalized? One of her clones? A vision in Shinji's mind, cuz he's getting closer to the Eva, and Rei is a clone of Yui (if I remember correctly)? Another meaningless cool thing?
It's not wrong. This is just you trying to rationalize the bad things Anno has done.
Legally speaking, you're wrong. It uses the same licence, it's not new.
Visually speaking, you're wrong. They use the same designs with variances that only equate to a change of clothes.
Musically speaking, you're wrong. The same themes remastered are being used.
It is Evangelion, and Evangelion is not new.
He is remaking Evangelion and making changes. That the original still exists there is the dumbest point I've seen raised in defense of anything Eva-related ever.
Effectively, realistically, it is a replacement Evangelion because it is what the very creator is selling as Evangelion.
The tape-moment means nothing and only ends up tying it closer to the series because it makes it implicit that it borrows for it, or even is a continuation since it continues a track.
If Evangelion was actually new, it wouldn't be called Evangelion.
Don't think they're bad. I have nothing to rationalize.
It is in no way a replacement. I really don't get your vitriol. He was never selling it as a replacement.
Whatever, you're entitled to your opinion.
Your dumb, stupid opinion.
Another meaningless cool thing, used to establish that something as weird with Rei from the get-go without dwelling on it.
It has since been rationalized as being Lilith sort of looking into the past during EoE back to when Shinji first came to Tokyo-3 (since a similar shot happens in EoE with Rei in the same outfit appearing over the red waves) but thats not exactly official.
Most fans call it 'quantum Rei', if they call it anything at all. She showed up in rebuild too.
They are bad, and you don't want them to be since the changes please you in some way. That's why you rationalize so you can say "nothing was changed".
You're the one with the dumb opinion by the way. Mine is realistic, to-the-point and can actually be quantified.
History has already proven me right, as people watch Rebuild, their perception of Neon Genesis Evangelion changes. Many believe it's an add-on, and a sequel. Regardless of them being right or not, it has changed what Evangelion is.
I'm not being vitriolic, I am only being fair.
So if George Lucas did something "new" by remaking the original trilogy, and Luke was now called Flywalker instead, yet it had Han Solo, Leia, C3PO and R2D2, everyone basically, it wouldn't be changing anything?
You're reaching awfully far here. That name-change of Asuka doesn't mean nothing was changed, it was a change in itself to change her name.
Anno is a supremely selfish person who would actually remake Evangelion so that his views as a fan of Evangelion are best represented. If not him, he'd allow the rest of his team to do it.
You can feel free to pretend that Rebuild doesn't exist, but it does.
I LIKE Rebuild. Why would I pretend they don't exist.
And the answer is "As long as he didn't suppress the original or say it was a replacement? No."
Thats the point. The name change was to signify its a different character. Similar, but different.
Then why is she the only one with a name change? The namechange is in itself a change.
The story follows the original closely as well setting aside the changes it makes, and even then it follows the exact same structure so far.
It's closer to being Evangelion than it is not being Evangelion.
Here's what's going on:
You like Rebuild. You don't want to consider it bad in any way, even if logic and reason dictates that yes, they are.
So you want to pretend that it's some sort of protected thing that does nothing wrong or changes nothing.
Rebuild is Evangelion. It's Rebuild of Evangelion, or Evangelion New Theatrical Edition. It's taking the original characters, changing them and presenting them.
If it was new, it wouldn't be called Evangelion it'd actually be an entirely new project in itself.
If you like Rebuilds after the third one, you just have poor taste.
Here's what's going on:
You don't Rebuild. You want to consider it bad in any way, even if logic and reason dictates that no, they aren't.
So you want to pretend that it's some sort of awful thing that does everything wrong or changes everything.
Asuka has the most significant character changes when introduced. Thats why.
You really seem to miss the point of a remake. It is a new Evangelion series, in
The same way the Eva manga is a new version. In the same way ALL the manga spin offs are. Even Anima is something different as it changes, then continues.
Also, your taste is shit.
I wish this thread gets archived, even though I know it doesn't deserve it. The only justification I can't think of is it's an example of /tg/ gets shit done. Ah well.
Never change my friends.
Despite you parroting me and failing at it, you're making progress.
It's a remake, which is what I said in the first place. Not simply a new Evangelion series. The Star Wars prequels are a new Star Wars Series, Rebuilds are a REMAKE.
1.0 has shot-for-shot redone scenes of the original. Even the manga doesn't have that (it even had it's first chapters come out before the first episode aired by the way).
The purpose of a remake is not to be "new".
Rebuild is marginalizing the originals by making light of the original characters and it's setting. You find that OK because your imaginary cartoon wife gets new footage.
Asuka is not my waifu, L85A1 is my waifu.
But seriously, no. In no way does the remake marginalize the original. In no way does it 'make light' of the characters. A remake IS a new series, a new version, and its existence does nothing to change the original.
I didn't fail. Its JUST as applicable. You don't like the Rebuilds. Ok. Go for it. My point was to show the stupidity of your argument in claiming that it was 'logical' that they were bad.
You are completely ignoring reality, it's context and history just to say Evangelion Rebuild is somehow a completely new work with no association with the old.
Do you know what a caricature is? It's not the original obviously, but it's making light of the original. That's Rebuild - a travesty.
I never said it was completely new with no association, why put those words in my mouth?
I just deny your claim its a caricature. Or making light of the original.
Its not literally sentai, at least not like that. Honestly, I'd describe it as a Gnostic Mash of Tom Clancy and Michael Crichton. Asuka, though, she plays up the sentai element. Its a reference to her embracing the whole badass pilot bit in canon. She's elite sentai operator. Or thinks she is, at least.
You realize the original had fanservice too? A lot of it? And nothing in it is any more pandering.
And even if it was, that STILL wouldn't make it making light of the original. Do you hate Angelic Days for the same reason?
Tale your nostalgia goggles off and appreciate them for what they are.
I dunno. If Evangelion is a show with a message, using human characters that evokes thought and understanding for their situation, Rebuild is more of a buffet selling itself to hardcore otaku, feeding their hikkikomori ways.
That means it makes light of the original to me.
Except I deny Rebuild is that. Thats your perception. I think its wrong.
You're entitled to your opinion.
You (aren't) correct.
The problem was it'd require even more bullshit than what got me into the corner in the first place.
The original had fanservice too, but it had many more things than just fanservice.
I don't like Angelic Days either, but it's better than Rebuild because it's not being coy about it's intentions.
The Rebuilds have many more things than fan service too.
They do, but not nearly enough unfortunately.
The entire third movie sold itself as a love-letter to the yaoi fandom, and had very little to compensate for that. The rest was more or less action scenes, fanservice and similar - it left Rebuild crippled as far as bringing out a solid human element that could carry the weight of the message Evangelion has.
Without that cornerstone, with only the shallow things left, and some characters like the Rei in black (which is a literal travesty) being an outright stupid version of what once was, it falls right into caricature territory.
Then the players (mostly the Operations Director) ruined most of my plans and I had to write new ones on the fly.
That you saw it as a yaoi thing marks, to me, that you have no idea what you're talking about. Did you think that Sam and Frodo were gay too?
Rebuild has that cornerstone still. What it comes off to me is the old stand-by. "Its different, so it sucks."
>That you saw it as a yaoi thing marks, to me, that you have no idea what you're talking about.
That goes for you more than me. Kaworu and Shinji in yaoi fandom are very popular, and the third movie very prominently features the two with obvious soulmate symbolism, from visuals to the lyrics in songs. Not to mention the whole scenario is essentially about the two being together by removing everyone else.
>Rebuild has that cornerstone still.
Not at all. It lacks it completely. The side-characters are cut, and they've introduced new characters they haven't bothered developing, or have time to develop.
Different is just different. It's not why Rebuild sucks, Rebuild sucks because it's lacking in every department and is arguably worse written than fan fiction.
You're in deep denial friend.
It was definitely gay, if only because their dynamic was copied from Devilman.