>There are people in the world, right now and in the future, who would rather trade in their loving, warm flesh for cold steel. >These people would literally rather have an unfeeling machine made from man imbedded in them as opposed to their synchronized, amazingly complex and connected system of organs and cells several billions of years in the making
Yeah, replacing bits of my body with some planned obsolescence DRM-laden bullshit that Apple comes up with, having to sign a "license" to use my own body, THAT sounds fucking great.
Transhumanists are the thickest group of utopian futurists out there. They live in a fantasy world where technology is magically produced by some non-corporate entity for general consumption, and not designed, engineered and integrated as PART of consumerist culture with the express purpose of fleecing people out of their wealth.
The age of cybernetic transhumanism is going to be the age of the greatest wealth gap in human history. I guarantee you it is going to suck shit.
>>34071117 Answer me if you will /tg/, a question. Are those of you reluctant to change your physical form in full control of it? Do you suffer from cerebral palsy, alzheimers, or schizophrenia? If a cybernetic brain would alleviate you of those things would you not take it? What about the smaller things? Anxiety, addiction, melancholy. Little things that separate you from you fellow human beings. Would you trade your flesh and blood for something mechanical if those things that ail you could be cured? I wonder because it seems to me that the brain is just hardware. If it malfunctions, it should be replaced.
Moving shit one atom at a time is too inefficient. A better ay would be to simply lump the area of, and just around, what you want to teleport, and switch those two areas of space between teleportation pads. Bam, no deconstructing/reconstructing bullshit, no messing with atom-by-atom shit, just raw ctrl+C/ctrl+V with the fabric of space-time.
Same reasons you'd enable internet connectivity on a pacemaker, insulin pump, refrigerator, and same reasons a company would require always on internet for a locally installed single player game, word processor, or movie.
My point is that you won't have full control over it. Unless you're skilled enough to make it yourself you'll have full control over your cybernetics the same way you have full control over your cellphone.
>>34078384 You mean bullshit DRM? The only real reason you would have wireless functionality is for the reasons outlined in 4th edition Shadowrun. To download firmware updates(which you would never do on anything but your' secure home network)and so your cyberdoc doesn't have to cut you open to check the status of internal implants. At all other times if you have wireless capability in your implants your' going to have it turned off because that shit's not safe.
>>34078435 I suffer from GAD & Schizoaffective disorder. I DO have as much control over my mind as I do over my phone. Probably less. At least I can jailbreak my phone. Getting into a place where I can do something similar to my mind requires meditation, medication, therapy, & a fuckton of willpower.
Or it's a neat idea with the best of intentions, but the actual code was outsourced to a third party, they didn't implement the full spec, and left a security hole that allows wifi to be remotely enabled.
Or hell, maybe it was implemented perfectly, and the standard had a hole no-one knew about. Heartbleed just happened for example, or there was that vulnerability in protected WiFi set up.
>>34071117 That makes sense. After all, if your cybernetics break down, you're dependent on a single company to fix them; if your body breaks down, you may have many more options. (For small damages, it may even repair itself.) And you're dependent on an external infrastructure - what happens if your heart's low on charge and there's a disaster blackout?
Also, we currently lack the ability to safely interface with the brain (current electrodes can cause scarring and necrosis), our batteries are bulky and pitiful compared to human fat or blood sugar, and existing actuators are actually really shit compared to human muscle.
If I were offered the option to be cyborged right now, I'd say no. (Well, maybe I'd get an under-skull EEG array. Those are pretty non-invasive and have a lot of interface possibility. And maybe stereo implanted bone-conduction speakers and microphones, if they didn't have the constant-open-wound problem due to sticking through the skin. And maybe an electrode grid in some patch of skin, to feed in additional data. But those are all minor.)
No I wanna direct a satirical dystopian anime about cyber augmentation corporatism. One of the main players will be a mega corp called cherry (logo is a cherry with a single bitemark in it , being fixed by cybercherry parts) which has cult like, religous undertones.
>>34079065 Medical prosthetics are infinitely more tricky than a phone, and far more dependent on manufacturer-specific custom parts.
Also, there really is something to be said for a body made of hyperefficient self-repairing nanotechnology that only requires air, water, and carbon compounds harvested from other nanoassemblers that cover much of the planet to run.
weak metal can't regenarate,can't adapt withour help,van't go beyond it's program,can't breed,can't feel itc. inb4 nanomachince becouse"remeber ,kids, whenever you have no arguments left use nanotechnology:metal can't regenerate?use nanomachine!psychic powers for robots?nanomachine!zebra and lion can't breed?nanomachine!Nanomachine-it's a fucking panacea!" even considering that using this nanotech on miltifunction flesh is more productiv then only beginig to evolve metal.
>>34078336 I don't like that ctrl-C. More like ctrl-X? I'd prefer right-click rotate with both points selected.
I know that I would never want to use a teleporter, though I would probably be okay with the stranger forms of faster then light travel that basically teleport you. I wonder how I would feel about my friends/family using a teleporter though. Especially the deconstruct/reconstruct kind.
>>34079724 Actually modern prosthetics can get pretty damn expensive if you're looking for anything complex, which is one of the main reasons for the existence of things like the Open-hand project.
As the level of complexity of prosthesis increases, so will the price, sure it will also be driven down by more efficient/wider manufacturing but that doesn't mean a proper replacement prosthesis will be cheap, they'll still be a large investment for people.
If you can't afford a decent hand? You make do with the basic claw-ones that lot's of people are forced to use nowadays because they're priced out of more modern versions.
>>34079827 They reproduce on their own, judging by the last 3 billion years of nanotech design.
That's the thing about invoking advanced nanotech - we're already built out of advanced nanotech, honed over 3 billion years of optimization. The idea that it will be simple to build nanomachinery from scratch that outclasses it by miles borders on laughable.
>>34080416 >viruses with a single role Yes and they role is to reproduce by fucking up everything near them. And you have to remember that the viruses mutates in every births. And you cannot control it.
I think wizards need trinkets like coins or the wooden star of David where they use it like a conduit and if you take it from them the wizard cries. Also more fermented it is the better. Also A feculent thaumaturge could be good. Like a filth wizard that will spray you with stomach acid or suffocate you with animated flesh
>>34080514 Yeah. The brain uses only 17.watts; with an estimated 100 teraflops for a software equivalent* , then an equivalent computer with top-of-the-line energy efficiency would require 31 kilowatts.
Human brains are slow (only around 100 Hz), but astoundingly efficient and incredibly parallel.
>>34071994 RIght around the time you fuck up the placement of a single synthetic neuron.
The Brain is a complex and interwoven net. Data A isn't written to Neuron A. It's more like Data ABCD is written to Neuron A, B, C, E, -F.
I'd have no problem replacing limbs with prosthesis if there were no downsides but I draw the line at the brain unless my braindeath is in the direct future.
The human body may be part of a process that has taken a long fucking time to get to its current point but keep in mind that there is a lot of shit left in that process. In order for human DNA to be expressed segments of it need to be cut out since they are useless Junk DNA that is unusable, comes from retro viruses or whatever.
>>34080984 A lot of "junk" dna from retroviruses has been shown to be monumentally essential. Even the deactivation creates something that is distinctly human, and not having it there at all causes problems.
A human being is nothing more than a pattern with increasing entropy. Maintain the pattern and you maintain the person.
See, this post, right here, is part of why I think materialism is problematic, particularly when it gets down to the business of morals and ethics. If personhood is fundamentally illusory (which seems to be a conclusion we can draw from materialistic models of the world), then it stands to reason that any form of morality which says "do good to others" is nonsense simply because there is no such thing as "an other", at all. A human being has no more value than a rock.
There is a zen koan that operates along these lines, talking of a man who wishes to enter a port, but cannot because another boat is blocking entrance to the port. This eventually results in his boat sinking and him drowning, curing the captain of the other vessle - but as he drowns, he suddenly sees the other boat has no crew. But, see the issue? If there is no one else, there is no one to hate -but there is no one to love, either.
Materialism's most fundamental conclusion about human beings is that personhood and consciousness is a lie which does not exist in and of itself, but that arises as a accident of biological processes. That is, we are "beings that labor under the illusion of self". (pic related.) This has a number of implications about how the world might work, but one of the implications I think which would be hard to argue with is the notion that on the whole, it is better to be dead than alive in a world which ultimately A: does not care about us at all and which B: gives us far more suffering than joy.
However, if human consciousness is intangible - that is, some form of dualist personhood is true - one possible reason for this state of affairs that avoids self-contradiction (such as the homunculus paradox) is because there is a first cause, which my personhood depends on for it's existence. We usually refer to this first cause in the west, generally, as God.
>>34083853 you can have a physicalist non physical mind, it's known as supervenience theory hardcore physicalists try to reject it an issue with what you said is the is/ought fallacy you say it's problematic because it poses a problem to morality (I disagree) but something being unappealing does not bear on it's truth or falsity And personhood has not, in philosophy, been based simply upon conscious homo sapiens for a long time; Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep illustrates some common thoughts on this matter but it is worth noting corporate entities and the functionally retarded can count as persons legally. Finally not all prosocial moral systems require a concept of other (phenomonology and affect is real enough and suffering is the among the simplest things one could ascribe negative value to) but if it did there is no reason why otherness could not be defined for instance as an emergent property of discrete phenomenologies
>>34083853 Humans are patterns. You can technically say humans and personhood are illusory, but it'd be roughly as true as saying weather is illusory, or lakes. Both of which are also ambiguously-defined patterns of subatomic particles not inherently encoded in the laws of physics.
I mean, there is a point of view where the fact that love, justice, good, evil, consciousness, and magenta are all products of meat somehow makes them not real. I just think it's a wrong and stupid position. Like claiming software is an illusion.
>>34078264 Depends on what you want your arm to do.
I mean if you just want a functional replacement for the arm that is simply more efficient then the original without gimmicky bullshit reasoning, then really there'd be little to no reason. But corporations like having control over all their products so you're likely to see the "Golden Handcuffs" be thrown onto aug's for no apparent reason. Shit like this already happens, always online DRM for otherwise singleplayer games, Subscription based service, additional tools/functionality in exchange for personal information, etc. and even then they still strive to make more and more profit by selling ad space in-game or with subscription based services.
That and augmentations wont just be an accessory to some and more of a necessity to be competitive in the workforce.
not only that but say an individual gets multiple augmentations from the same company, they can then effectively sell their ENTIRE medical history that's constantly updating by the second.
Didn't upgrade to the latest version of Medware OS. They know it.
Does your artificial liver detect resent alcohol consumption. They know it.
They could effectively use this information to force you to either pay them for privacy, for updates, etc. in order to prevent yourself from becoming a liability to the company you work for.
That of course only becomes a reality if we don't keep these companies in check legally which is looking like less of a possibility with every passing day.
So if you'll excuse me, I need to collect some tin foil and duct tape from the dumpster outside. Need to protect myself from the illuminati mind control rays.
>>34086448 Not only are skeletons real, they comprise all of reality.
The universe is the skeleton of a quantum instabilitiy. A star is the skeleton of a nebula. An infant is the skeleton of a pregnancy. Our bodies are made from the skeletons of stars, and when we die our bodies will become skeletons once more. The dirt will be the skeleton of our skeletons, which will feed the plants that are dirt skeletons.
You see, life and death revolve around skeletons. Skeletons we have always been, skeletons we are, and skeletons we will be.
>>34088347 >resent At least you could get yourself an onboard semanticweb 3.0 spellchecker. It's recent. I've seen this a few times recently and I hope it's not becoming another of those commonly-accepted misspellings like 'loose' for 'lose'.
Hate to tell you this but disembodiment of a brain will still rob you of some of your personality. A great deal of what affects your mood and regulates your general state of being comes from feedback loops from your body.
A brain transplanted into a robotic shell is going to either need whole sections of it lanced and replaced with cybernetic versions that can artificially stimulate the same sensations, or a whole stock of chemicals to regulate those feelings. Either way, though, some AI inside your new shiny robot body is regulating most things that affect your mood. Your libido, your ability to feel happy or sad or angry... All that would be on hard disk.
Already pointed out, but materialism being correct or incorrect doesn't rest on whether we find it palatable or not. I don't feel this is the case, though, because...
>personhood is fundamentally illusory
Why does materialism say personhood is fundamentally illusory? It says a person is a result of a complex series of physical interactions. The outcome of those interactions is what we call a person, just as the outcome of the interactions of a series of dyes smeared on a canvas is what we call a painting.
A person is real. They're just physical. This seems self-evident to me. Similarly...
>no such thing as "an other"
See above. Other people exist just as paintings exist. They're features of reality that we interact with and, in the case of people, hopefully feel compassion for.
>A human being has no more value than a rock
Value is subjective anyway. If you deny that a material entity can hold subjective opinions, this is a moot point. If we hold materialism true, though, clearly they can.
Again, there's no reason to call the existence of a being illusory because clearly we perceive it; that's what consciousness is. It's simply that selfhood arises from a series of complicated processes, rather than some ineffable substance.
Short version: Bullshit.
The rest of your babble, I can't comment on because it's all opinion.
>>34078314 There's only one part of your brain that isn't "killed" yearly, and that part could be simply left unharmed as all the other neurons are replaced, so that they remain compatible with your new body parts.
You've undoubtedly heard over and over again about what an absurdly complex entity the human brain is. But a new breakthrough by Japanese and German scientists might finally drive the point home. Taking advantage of the almost 83,000 processors of one of the world's most powerful supercomputers, the team was able to mimic just one percent of one second's worth of human brain activity—and even that took 40 minutes. >http://gizmodo.com/an-83-000-processor-supercomputer-only-matched-one-perc-1045026757
>"If petascale computers like the K computer are capable of representing 1 percent of the network of a human brain today, then we know that simulating the whole brain at the level of the individual nerve cell and its synapses will be possible with exascale computers hopefully available within the next decade," Markus Diesmann of the Institute of Neuroscience and Medicine at Germany's Forschungszentrum Julich said in the release.
>>34097345 If it's IBM or any other megacorp precursor, it's not gonna be the punk part. The punk part comes about through millions of dissatisfied youths hacking crazy shit onto themselves and fucking over the status quo. thisiswhatpunksactuallybelieve.png
I'm 100% down with prosthetics, cyborgs, and full-on Transies, up unto the ones that think they can live forever by uploading their memories/though patterns/etc into a robot; the ones that don't understand that that would just make a copy of them and that they're still going to die in their flesh-brain.
>>34099103 I want biotech for two things only; sensory augmentation and integrated electronic interface. I don't care about roboarms that could lift a car or an enhanced liver that let's me drink by the keg. I just want enhanced vision and the ability to carry and play my music collection hands free from a chip in my head.
>>34099399 I just want myself some nice regeneration. Which cybernetics does NOTHING for. I've got so many chronic illnesses, getting a cybernetic who's primary flaw is "needs to be repaired if damaged" is just asking for more chronic problems.
>>34099730 And it's within the realm of possibility for organics and machines to be goddamn indistinguishable by the time that happens, rendering the point moot. NOW, though, there's serious weight to the "use both!" school.
Because they're only "superior" for one specific thing - distance or speed running. They aren't superior for day to day life, for balance, they don't (yet) provide any sensation (though that technology exists, and is awesome).
In order for it to be "Superior" to my current part, it must give me all of the benefits, and fewer or less severe drawbacks.
>>34101200 >Shit, man, so do I. :P Pull out a finger-nail right now. Down to the quick. It'll soon grow back in the original shape that it was You removed the entire node of the keratinous substance from your finger and yet it's back from complete removal/destruction.
That is an entirely different function and form beyond what "Self-healing" metals and plastics are achieving or even aiming towards.
Plus self-healing wires and other materials take up so much additional mass and are extremely fragile in other ways, being mostly comprised out of fluid metals and soft polymers that are much less durable then even skin, flesh, and bone. It would be comparable to getting a large gouge down your arm then bleeding out half of your nervous system.
You're damn right I'd rather keep my body than upgrade to super death jesus 40k.
My Mk. 1 arm's had hundreds of thousands of years of R&D, and the cells that make it up millions. It can't be pushed so hard it breaks intentionally, and if I do manage to break it it'll fix itself as long as I set it properly and give it time to heal. My arm doesn't pop a vein in day to day operation and then have to go into the shop to the tune of money out of my pocket and a rising insurance premium.
My arm is also my own, completely, and was created by the most free, open and non-biased development method there is. My arm doesn't have any ticking time bombs built into it to keep me toeing the line; no security backdoors that would let anybody with a mind for it and training or a wad of cash punch me in the face or strangle me.
My arm self improves all on its own, with just plain old exercise. No expensive labor and replacement parts, and no calibration for the new power range. My arm doesn't glitch out, and takes a literal lifespan (if that) to suffer from degrading neural contacts - and at that point I have bigger problems.
My arm isn't a solid mass of metal and ceramics that transmits any existing external cold straight into my core.
My arm will never run out of batteries, fuel, or require painful anchor points to be attached to my bones.
>>34101665 >my arm doesn't glitch out Fuck you, human arms glitch out all the damn time. Mine is CURRENTLY building bone spikes that are jabbing into my nerves rendering my right arm inoperable over time due to a bug in the bone construction subroutines.
>>34101665 Your arms have a need for fuel though. You need water every day, and food every thirty, and that's at the least. also you have a third fuel you need. air. dumbass. and you need a new full tank of that every three minutes. and thats stretching it.
>>34102658 Anything like that will require years for your brain to adjust. I mean, just look at people who have hand transplants after a length of time without them your brain reallocates those neurons and requires time to readjust. That's just with a hand, and the only reason that works is because it's falling back on what you have there by default.
Any massive bodily change would have lots of unknown effects on your brain and who knows if you'll ever fully adjust to have the fine motor control you'd need to perform delicate tasks with it?
I'd be alright with cybernetics that don't alter my arms/upper torso/face bits, as well as cybernetic organs to the extent that they can act as perfect replicas. Everything else I'm too attached to. I take a certain joy in feeling things with my own biological meat mitts and appreciating sensory input with my fleshy face organs, flawed as they might be.
I love all the assumptions doomsayerfags are making. >B-but what if?!? As if it's not optional. If it isn't optional, then it having security vulnerabilities is the least of your worries and not liking it won't stop it from happening to you. The only rational option is to embrace it or be indifferent. Fearing it is absolute stupidity.
>>34103439 You could manage as long as you were roughly human sized and you had something resembling hands. It's when you start going for the jet propelled dragon bodies that you would start to have problems.
>>34102658 I wouldn't mind an octopus form. But I don't really care what form I have. My chief concern is my final form. Essentially my mind would be uploaded to multiple machines at once, interspersed in the universe at regular spacial intervals so information travels between each individual terminal relatively quickly. Sure, across a large enough distance there will be behavioral 'lag' But given enough time all the information will be more or less synchronized, and by extension, all of them are 'me'. This also conveniently makes me really hard to kill as if you destroy one then the other 'me's will know and attempt to build another terminal in it's place. The only danger I can currently conceive of is a 'virus' going through my network. But that is partially solved by developing my own software and hardware with my increased intelligence and knowledge. I do not want a hivemind, I want this setup to be my conscious and only my conscious. I do not mind sharing space with others though. What is the 'point' of all of that? I don't know, what is the 'point' of being alive in the first place?
>>34104078 A self repairing machine doesn't need to be built from self repairing materials anyway. If the materials can be repaired using a set of external tools, then the machine only needs to know how to use the tools.
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