>religion is legal
>we could have advanced ages ago if we allowed human experimentation
>thousands of homeless people
>instead of exchanging food shelter and some money for their contracted service for experimentation we give it to them for free and leave them homeless
>religious fags out there actually get mad when people do stem cell research or experiment on any living thing
>vegetarian/vegan fags get mad for animals
>not wanting to advance your own species to the point where we don't need to eat animals anymore because can't handle a few sacrifices
This shit makes me angry. Why are people so fucking stupid.
>he thinks it's the religious who oppose human experimentation
it's the medical community shunning it, human experimentation wouldn't give us any meaningful breakthroughs or insight that we haven't already gotten.
>Why are people so fucking stupid
I don't know, why are you?
But how do we know? Who is adamantly doing live experimentation on humans as we speak that isn't illegal?
Sure we have had many breakthroughs, but what if it could speed up progress so that breakthroughs take a shorter amount of time.
We don't know everything about death even, what's stopping us from finding out.
the entire medical and scientific establishment is wrong on the matter of ethics and anonymous faggot #7799013 has it all figured out. How is one person able to be so smart? Thank you for this amazing insight OP.
>human experimentation wouldn't give us any meaningful breakthroughs or insight that we haven't already gotten.
Josef Mengele developed some mighty fine decompression tables by experimenting on Jews.
Didja ever notice how people who think human experimentation is a good idea never seem to consider that it could wind up that they be one of those getting experimented on?
Why is that, I wonder...
I know that feel. It's not just religion but philosophy in general. Ethics is holding back science. I hate these stupid "muh feelings" arguments against animal experiments and against embryonic stem cell research.
1. Volunteer for experiments
2. Get cloned
3. Subject clone to experiments, since it's really just a glorified tumor of yours that was cultivated, and therefore just part of you
4. Literally no one with any importance was hurt
5. Given enough experimentation it's possible that we would be capable of creating a clone with no sense of pain or emotion
Moralfags like you are why we don't have auxillary brains yet
Panpsychism and evolution denial are antiscientific. If you believe in those, go to /x/ or /pol/. Evolutionary neurobiology suggests that animals' brains are not as complex as human brains.
Cognitive neuro here. You're full of shit. Not as complex =/= no consciousness. No one's citing Jungian ideals here. Just that animals feel pain and fear. In fact, their lower self-awareness is more reason not to needlessly put them through harrowing experience when they can't understand why they're being tortured.
I'd say this is bait but 4chan is Poe's Law personified so I'll assume you're some popsci-edgelord. Please kill yourself if you're so worried about human advancement. Do us all a favor.
>claims to be neuro
>doesn't even know what consciousness is
Try harder, pop sci kid.
Animals do not "feel" pain and fear. They do not have sufficiently evolved brains to have subjective awareness. For them pain and fear are automatic subconscious processes.
>blames religion for a speculation of what the present could've been
>implying a clone is somehow not a human being
There are people who actually believe this, to be honest. When a professor of mine gave a lecture about stem cells and cloning, she insisted on the fact that if she took one of her ovocytes and put the nucleus of one of her cells in it, the resulting embryo would effectively be her and thus she should be able to treat it however she pleases (both if she wanted to disrupt the blastocyst for stem cells or let it grow in a fully developed human).
>since it's really just a glorified tumor of yours that was cultivated
You either don't know what a tumor is or you don't know how clonation works
>Literally no one with any importance was hurt
It's good to know you are the one determining the importance of people
>it's possible that we would be capable of creating a clone with no sense of pain or emotion
Ok, you definetely don't know how clonation works.
2/10 if bait. If you're seriosly a creationist who belives animals have been given "souls" or whatever by god, then you're wrong on a science board. Evolutionary neurobiology has a very clear picture of how evolved different brain structures are. So far only humans did evolve sufficiently high to have subjective awareness.
I'll take unfounded illogical assumptions based on a misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of evolutionary theory for two please, Alex.
Many mammals like elephants, apes (including humans), some monkeys and some cetaceans have morality, self awareness, etc.
I'm an atheist BTW family
>elephants recognise the corpses of their own species and exhibit mourning behaviours
>elephants pass the mirror test (self awareness)
>hungry rhesus monkeys will not shock other rhesus monkeys knowingly, even with food as a reward
>some cetaceans (especially dolphins) are obviously intelligent
Step it up
K den. Explain the story of how God chose humans to be the only with ones with souls (despite over 5 billion species existing), and the evidence for the soul, and why people even believe in it in the first place
>equating intelligence with consciousness
>believing the mirror test is a legitimate test of self-awareness
I honestly can't tell whether you're a dumb as fuck pop sci child or trolling hard. Just in case I'll give you a 3/10.
Morality is basically a mental crutch for those who can't think for themselves.
The guy you're talking to believes "god" gave "souls" to all animals. Something which contradicts the evolutionary and neurobiological fact that only humans so far evolved consciousness.
Holy fuck, the stupidity in this post hurts. The mirror test has been discarded as pseudoscience. It is circular and does not allow any interpretation of self-awareness.
Consciousness is th3 state of being aware and responsive to your surroundings, and that directly correlates to intelligence
Why is th4 mirror test not a valid test of self awareness
>and that directly correlates to intelligence
Are you retarded? Self-awareness has nothing to do with IQ.
>Why is th4 mirror test not a valid test of self awareness
Why don't you fucking google the criticism that led to it being dismissed? That is, if you are too mentally challenged to figure it out on your own.
>Morality is basically a mental crutch for those who can't think for themselves.
Solipsism. Prove that I'm a real conscious entity and not a biological device merely responding to inputs. Not to say I really believe that only I exist, but for the time being, you won't prove it otherwise, and I can't, either.
And yes, self awareness does correlate to key features of intelligence, like working memory capacity and memory recall, for example
Also, how would you even measure other
After googling, it seems the mirror test can give false negatives
This just makes the positives more significant
The fact that you said "just Google it lol you retard kek lol" without even providing a specific reason is v. Lazy desu
The Greek and roman scientists and philosophers didn't speak English
The evidence suggests you are a real conscious entity because you can perceive and be perceived with multiple methods if detection and through non-empirical logical deduction
>blames Religion (more than likely, Christianity) for "holding us back"
Sure, you will cite Galileo vs the Vatican, and other such trials, but during the geopolitical strife that was the Dark Ages and Midlle Ages, Monks and Church Officials were the ones not only preserving the discoveries of the past, but also became the philosophers and scientists of those ages. Their contributions would allow the Renaissance and beyond to occur.
>The Greek and roman scientists and philosophers didn't speak English
Perhaps because they didn't exist? Ancient Greece and Rome were almost 2 millennia before science began. The scientific method didn't gain popularity before the 19th century. There were no scientists in Greece and Rome.
>self awareness does correlate to key features of intelligence, like working memory capacity and memory recall, for example
Wrong. All these do neither require nor imply self-awareness. Are you mentally retarded? What the fuck is this bait?
>WRONG WRONG WRONG YOU'RE A TROLL I'M RIGHT YOU CAN'T EVEN USE GOOGLE WHEN I'VE GIVEN YOU ALL THE INFORMATION YOU NEED (it's pseudoscience repeated three times) I DON'T NEED TO EXPLAIN MYSELF BECAUSE I'M RIGHT
Just because doctors have to take a dumbed down intro to chemistry class (which most of them fail), medicine doesn't become STEM. They are not doing any science. Memorization is not science. Dealing with patients is a service and not science. Calling medicine a STEM subject is like calling prostitution a STEM subject becaue a prostitute needs to learn about STDs.
>Prove that I'm a real conscious entity and not a biological device merely responding to inputs.
What's the discrepancy? Or am I to synthesize such definitions for your benefit to doubt and argue your own subjective conveyance?
>you can perceive
You have not shown this. Does ASIMO perceive things? Is it a strong AI? How can you show this?
>and be perceived with multiple methods of detection
ASIMO can recognize faces among other features along the lines of perception. Can you show this is conscious perception and is linked with self-awareness?
>non-empirical logical deduction
You have not shown all conditions to be true.
Not really irrational,and ops post is pretty factually incorrect and silly. We already allow human experimentation (clinical trials, organ and tissue donation), wantonly coercing humans into being subjects will result in you and your children being subjects, probably, and as an atheist the religion part is just edge, nobody really takes religious arguments against science seriously (except in burgerland), and outlawing religion is though policing - that doesn't end well
Vegetarians and vegans want to avoid unnecessary anjmal suffering, like on farms and in testing beauty products
Science isn't just a throw more subjects at scientists, get more results affair - that's not how return and probabilities work
How am I spreading ignorance? I literally asked him to provide an explanation for his claim. Then he asked me to Google it, which provides no real data when I'm not provided with a specific issue.
Overall, just a b8 thread with a good measure of edge
You can see, hear, etc. These could all be manufactured, but Occam's razor
Asimo can only react and perform preprogrammed things. It can only learn qualities it is preprogrammed to learn, like names and places. It wouldn't do so well in learning and being able to apply new information that isn't preprogrammed
Anyway, solipsism comes down to a "you can't prove they don't so unicorns DO exist xd" argument, and Occam's razor eliminates it
>promotes the "mirror test" pseudoscience
>thinks intelligence and self-awareness are the same thing
>"How am I spreading ignorance?"
Here's your (You).
>You can see, hear, etc
Yep. So can ASIMO.
>Asimo can only react and perform preprogrammed things. It can only learn qualities it is preprogrammed to learn, like names and places. It wouldn't do so well in learning and being able to apply new information that isn't preprogrammed
How is exactly can this not be extended to humans and their biological hardware? Without certain regions of the brain, I'd have no ability to learn language, or without others, I'd have no,"GPS," of sorts to learn and reason out my location.
>Anyway, solipsism comes down to a "you can't prove they don't so unicorns DO exist xd" argument
Hardly. It certainly doesn't imply something exists due to a lack of being falsifiable. As I said, I don't believe I'm the only existing entity, but thinking that others do exist is merely an assumption on my part that just seems reasonable, based in my own subjective experiences. It's not an objective fact.
Once again, I'd like an explanation, or a source, or even a specific issue with the mirror test. Stop shitposting.
I said intelligence and self awareness correlate. Think of all the intelligent people you know (probably not going to be your parents) and think of their self awareness compared to less intelligent people. Note self awareness means conscious knowledge of one's thoughts, motives and desires. Intelligent people think about why they want /feel what they want, the less intelligent are more emotionally driven or live in a non self aware daze
For example, am intelligent person would realise they were shitposting. You, instead, mistakenly call b8
The issue overlooked with CS and A.I. is one of distinguish of paradigms between what is computational, and was is experience. When we read the glyphs off this screen, they convey only meaning conceptualize by the human thought. Inasmuch, the "depth" we see in a portrait, is something not of reality, but of the human mind's ability to assume of what features are in the foregrounds and background. The essence of such things is just paint. The issue is that the detector on a camera does not "see" an image of light, but through switches and signal processing (codecs), processes an intelligible image for the human mind to see.
A.I., in it's current state should be seen more as I.A. (intelligent agent) in the same way a thermostat alters in it's resistance depending upon the temperature.
Consciousness could possibly be derived, but the experience of red is different from 255 69 0, and FF4500, which really to a computer is a assigned instruction to an element on a display device.
Friendly reminder that atheist, neckbeard, overweight fedorafag edgytarians are still dead right about there being nothing good about religion, that nothing is actually incorrect about their militant anti-religious advocacy, and that "Le Silly Fat Fedora Man Epic Maymay" is not an argument against this position.
All these idiots ignoring the fact that experimenting with clones is limited to only 4 weeks because Pope said no...guess why if an actual human clone were to be made and if he had acted as same as the real human it would totally disprove that humans have souls...
And yes religion is fucking up research because morals and ethics...
>You know that nothing Mengele or Unit 731 produced had any scientific or medical value, right?
Were the survival tables deleted? People have asked for it I remember, I just didn't know they had gone ahead with it.
>>we could have advanced ages ago if we allowed human experimentation
The premise for this entire thread is wrong.
"We" as in those who do not experiment on homeless people do so for ethical reasons. Or because they do not want to be caught.
Still, there are people who have no such inhibitions and do large scale testing in slums. If it works it is great, if it fails the agent is removed and papers are burned. There is one country that is well known in the biz for this.
The problem with pre clinical testing is that it is well known that there are compounds that kill dogs but are harmless or even beneficial to humans. That means tests halted because all dogs died in the test could be a bad rejection of something that would be of use to humans. And some are willing to check up on this.
So in certain countries you can or will be able to get medicine you cannot get elsewhere and cannot get in the West since the documentation trail is way dodgy.
What a retarded meme. The catholic church did not "preserve" any "scientific documents". Science did not even exist yet at that time. Rigorous use of the scientific method did not happen prior to the 19th century. The only thing preserved by the church was antiscientific philosophical dogma. Now please take your fedora back to reddit.
>neurobiological fact that only humans so far evolved consciousness
Seriously, why is human experimentation so frowned upon?
Nothing good in this world comes without sacrifices.
Some people are nothing more than vermin, they could be used as guineapigs.
>Modern society was created by religion
>Were it not for religion it is unlikely humans would have followed the laws necessary for a community to survive.
Humans hunted and gathered in bands long before organized religion.
Because societies function independent of religion, this has been shown throughout history. The ideas of not killing or raping or stealing transcend religion, and derivatives of these basic values are really all you need. The golden rule (do not do unto others what you would not want done unto yourself) is a better approximation for moral behavior than any religious text
No morality is a mental restraint system for stupid people, smart people dont need morals because we have a naturally level of impulse control compared to you impulsive morons that need your emotions to stop you from killing people, stealing from peopl or commiting sexual acts.
It's both edgy and factually incorrect (human experimentation is already allowed, what are clinical trials)
It's also ironic
>some people are nothing more than vermin
>posting this on a Mongolian warlord training imageboard
Even if you can control your impulses, you can still do bad things. Relative morality and empathy acts as a guide to help you do the thing that results in the least suffering
And it's the notion of morality that lets you know what impulses to control anyway
Smart people dont need morality because we have enough impulse control to never get in the situation where we would act like animals and need emotional inhibitions to maintain self control. So we can still do bad things? What does is matter? Bad is just a word human use to describe anything that makes them feel guilt or misery.
You're conflating morality and emotional inhibition
Even if you can control your impulses, you can still end up in a situation where you need to make a decision that has the potential to negatively impact people, and you need a sense of empathy and morality to do the best thing
>So we can still do bad things? What does is matter? Bad is just a word human use to describe anything that makes them feel guilt or misery.