Infinity

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You are currently reading a thread in /sci/ - Science & Math

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Infinity 2016-01-14 15:03:27 Post No. 7783210

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Infinity 2016-01-14 15:03:27 Post No. 7783210

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Is the Universe infinite? Show your work.

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The space that holds the matter is infinite by definition. The matter inside is finite.

/thread

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>>7783219

How can space exist if it's not matter?

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>>7783225

That's like asking, how can energy exist if it isn't matter? The point is, it is 'something', an undefinable something.

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>>7783225

when you graph a parabola you understand that the graph extends to infinity correct? Basically the same thing.

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>>7783219

Nope, matter/energy is infinite as well. Assume the universe is uniform.

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>>7783225

Nothingness exists as a concept. It describes the mathematical area that holds no matter. So its the part that fills whatevers left out of the finite matter. Which makes it an infinite space.

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>is anything infinite?

Since the concept of "infinite" is vague and unbounded, it has no real correlate, therefore no existence.

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>>7783225

Matter can't exist without space. Actually matter existing is a necessary result of space and its gauge symmetry existing.

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>>7783233

Occam's razor, my friend; infinity makes less sense than there is just a massive

amount of finite matter, energy in an ever growing universe. Just because there is more space, doesn't necessarily mean that there will be more matter or energy to fill the space.

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>>7783236

No, no, no. Wrong on so many levels. First of all that doesn't really answer his question because he didn't ask how space can exist without matter in it, he asked how space can exist (implying the only thing that can exist is matter). Space is not simply the absence of matter, this is a common misconception.

>>7783243

No, an arbitrary amount of finite matter makes less sense than infinite matter. Occam's Razor is specifically why the cosmological principle is used. The universe is assumed to be uniform. The universe is flat and therefore assumed to be infinite. Therefore there is infinite matter since the proportion of matter to space in our local space is greater than 0.

Also, the universe isn't growing, it's just stretching, or getting less dense. But it's volume isn't "changing".

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>>7783239

LOL, so your intuition substantiates existence?

What backward logic.

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>>7783251

What about thermodynamic equilibrium and heat death?

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>>7783264

What about it?

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>>7783268

So you're saying that the volume of the universe remains constant, the matter within it stretches with the universe?

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>>7783272

It's unclear what "constant volume" means for an infinite volume universe, but yes I think it's inaccurate to say that the universe is growing. "Expansion" in this context simply refers to the density of the universe getting lower and can't really be analogized to a finite volume object expanding beyond that.

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>>7783276

You do understand that spacetime itself is stretching and it's not just matter that is going towards smaller density?

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>>7783283

uh, yes? That's what we're talking about. By density I mean the ratio of matter to spacetime in any finite part of space.

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>>7783289

Then I agree.

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>>7783210

>there exist infinites in mathematics

>mathematics exist within the universe

either

>the universe must be infinite to hold the information of an infinity

or

>mathematics exists outside the universe

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>>7783225

>how can our eyes be real if mirrors aren't

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If the universe can be delimited as a very small volume at the very beginning, and that it expended at a non-infinite rate over a non-infinite period of time since the Big Bang, then the universe is not infinite.

>inb4 hurr durr what about the empty space outside of the universe

Doesn't count you fucking bitch. The expansion of the universe since the big bang is an expansion of space-time itself. Outside of that expending area, space-time isn't even a thing.

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>>7784256

>Outside of that expending area, space-time isn't even a thing.

that you know of*

(You know, because you don't know anything about it. You're talking complete shit if you say what outside the universe is or is not, by default. Here, there, and everywhere. Always, and forever.)

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Let's put it this way. If the universe were somehow finite, how would that even work? What is going to happen if someone decides to travel nonstop in one direction forever? There couldn't possibly be some silly invisible barrier like in N64 games, right? There doesn't seem to be a way for this. So the universe is probably infinite in expanse.

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>>7784263

Something outside of our universe is by definition something that we will never be able to observe or interact with. It is so pointless to speculate of shit outside of our universe it doesn't even deserve asking ourselves if "it could be real".

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>>7784274

By a lot of modern scientists' opinions, you would be right...

But I would like to remind everyone that most people have dreams when they go to sleep at night and the things in dreams can be interacted with at that time, yet they do not exist within the physical universe in which we live.

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>>7784271

I cannot shake my head are enough

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>>7783264

That is the purpose of the creation of our current existing universe to counter the law of thermodynamics.

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>>7784280

Yes, it exists within the physical universe in which we live. It's called fucking brain activity.

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>>7784285

Nope. I would explain more to you, but I'm not in the mood.

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>>7784291

Don't need to, just need to send me a link to your article. Surely if you proved that dreams/consciousness signifies the existence of something beyond the physical world, you'd found someone to publish your great work.

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>>7783210

We don't know.

But the observable universe is finite and because we can't observer anything outside of it, it doesn't matter. All you can do is speculate, but it will never affect you in any way.

>>7783225

Because space isn't made of matter. It's just an concept

>>7783525

No it doesn't have to. Maths is an concept defined by people. Wikipedia page (and maybe mathematical papers if you really need) contains all information of an infinity in math.

Math can't exists or not exists inside/outside the universe since it's only a concept.

>>7784271

Particle horizon is the boundary but you can never reach it since it always moves away from you at speed of light(or higher).

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>>7784256

What makes you think the volume of the universe was ever finite? I don't think you understand what cosmological expansion is.

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>>7783210

Well you can never stop dividing/multiplying right? Therefore, matter will always get smaller or bigger and never stop.

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No. We exist in the world volume of some 10-brane. What exists outside this brane is too complicated for our monkey branes to try to understand.

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>>7784299

>it will never affect you

You don't know whether some future people will discover physical infinities which can be manipulated or interacted with. It is conceivable that nature might contain processes or objects most easily described as infinite which can be observed by humans in a finite amount of time.

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The timeless singularity was infinite but this universe is surely finite and will die a hot mess before being sucked back into the infinite void.

Working: I am a super genius

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>>7784725

What the hell are you talking about?

What future people have to do with anything?

The way you describe process doesn't affect it at all. You can use term infinity in any description and it won't prove anything.

Define physical infinity.

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