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Why does sci hate computer science? The hate...
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Why does sci hate computer science? The hate is extreme.
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>>7764187
Because /sci/ is filled with spergs. They hate SC, biology, medicine, and everything that isnt "pure".
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>>7764187
they need it to feel superior and to troll people like you
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Several reasons.

The field itself is generalized and not used for anything special, you'll never really be making any large contributions to human knowledge or advancement unless it's just a stepping stone. Being a cog in a machine or a hard worker is fine and good, but also kind of mediocre.

It's also oversaturated by idiots. There's countless assholes who go into it wanting to 'make video games' or 'become a hacker xD'. The most annoying part of a group is also the most vocal, so they're the ones that most of us see and run into - and it's not like there's any shortage of them. Go check out one of the "what's the people in your field like" threads next time one's up. CS is a goddamn nightmare when it comes to the people in it.

Lastly, it's the popsci choice for 'smart person job!!!!' right next to physics. (Which in my opinion is also sort of a useless degree). Stupid people try to cram how cool and awesome it is down people's throats and it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
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>>7764187
Personally I hate CS because I'm very butthurt. It was a huge disappointment to go into CS and to find out that all the other students are retarded and there is nothing in the lectures I couldn't learn on my own much faster. Fuck you CS for wasting my time. I wish I went straight into math and physics.
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>>7764205
Also like >>7764207 said, it's really kind of useless to study. You can learn on your own at a better pace and arguably even easier than going to lectures. Hell, there's even cert. tests that you can take to put on your resume, which looks better since it shows you have the capacity to be an autodidact and the drive to do something like it.
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>>7764187

Because they act like they have several PhDs in math for passing their discrete math course. CS major retardation is extreme.
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>>7764187

Check the archives. There are dozens of threads on this very topic. Highlights:

>>5662999
>I do not hate CS. CS is an umbrella term for many interesting fields of research. However I do feel utter contempt for CS students. As a mathematically minded person I myself studied CS until realizing that I won't get any intellectual qualifications from studying it. BSc programmes in CS are catering to and attracting the most anti-intellectual scum that barely managed to enter university. The usual CS curriculum is already designed in such a way to teach only a bare minimum of math and theory, hardly going beyond high school knowledge. Yet the average CS student fails it. The same people who are spouting wrong platitudes like "CS is all hard math" are the people who think you're a genius for knowing calculus. The pinnacle of idiocy I encountered in CS was a 6th semester student going for his BSc who did not know what a logarithm is.

>>5982685
>With a CS degree alone without further qualifications you are factually unemployable. Neither the primitive GUI design in java nor the shallow hardware, database or network intro will qualify you for a job. The only people getting acceptable jobs with a CS degree are those who either combined it with another degree or who already had a job before because they self-learned important skills. Quite a few CS students openly told me they are only getting the degree just to have something on paper to force their boss to give them higher salary. The job they already had because they started web design / programming / security in high school. Having demonstrable experience in those is more important to an employer than what you learned in CS. The business monkey variety of retards is even more unemployable. Representatives of local industries explicitly said the degree is trash because these people know neither economics/business nor computing.
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>>7764226

>>5981331
>The math and theoretical CS are even more laughable. The only people who complain about their hardness are those stereotypical video game retards who already failed their math classes in high school. All the "muh logical quantifiers", "let's mindlessly apply this symbolic manipulation algorithm", "oh wow, an automaton represents a language" or "holy shit, how do I show this algorithm does what it does" babby crap is shallow and hardly deserves to be called university level. A mathematician or a physicsist who is trained in reading definitions, theorems and proofs can pick up all of a BSc computer scientist's theoretical CS much more indepth by spending one or two afternoons of reading a book.

>>5981333
>The worst thing however are the people going for such a degree. Out of all degrees CS seems to attract the most anti-intellectual scum. I seriously wonder how these people even managed to enter university. Every retard who barely passed high school and spends most of his day playing video games seems to think the must study CS. There are socially inept neckbeards of the retarded variety, hating and repeatedly failing math as well as the most simple programming assignments. There are dumbasses whose high school diploma was too bad to go for an economics degree, hence why they want to enter the business monkey route of CS in the hope of getting a little more than minimum salary. Those are of such subhuman IQ that they do not even understand the semantics of an implication in propositional logic.
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>>7764187
Because lots of people started majoring in it within the last five years, there really isn't any other reason. Alpha nerding
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>>7764212
>Cert tests being worth more than a BS
>For CompSci

That's some subtle trolling.
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>>7764259
Obviously not if you're going into CompSci, idiot. If you add it in with another degree that's just another bonus to your resume.
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>>7764259
That is not was he is saying but first, if he did say that he would be right. You could a software job with only a cert and no degree but you'd get paid less.

However, if you get an actual university education like engineering, mathematics, physics, etc. and then you get a programming cert to add to your resume, you will be worth a hundred times more than any braindead CS major.

ffs there was an anon that said that a guy with a history degree had a software engineering job.
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>>7764271
>programming cert

aka a github page filled with random projects with a paragraph promising you never code like this again - "oh god, why did I think that was a good idea".
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>>7764304
That is not a programming cert, but certainly have a good github page to show will boost your employability.

Anyways, I mean an actual certification given by technical schools after you complete their courses in java, C, etc.
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I'm a CS major and I clown on CS majors on here all the time, mostly because 95% of CS majors couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag. Lots of the students in my major seem to have an open disdain for mathematics too (I try to learn as much math as I have time for between work/classes, whereas in class, anytime a proof is shown for a worst case run-time or even a basic enumeration of recursive calls, there's audible groans)

And there's plenty of cringy "i want to work for video games" faggots around.

A lot of them are also only in it for the money/job hype which triggers me immensely. Also, a lot of the guys, even the ones who aren't horrendous, are fucking beta white knight pussy beggars who carry undeserving women through a 4-year degrees.

I hate my school.
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>>7764330
>"i want to work for video games"

This is something I don't understand. As much passion as you may have, you should never work in the AAA videogame industry. However, if you want to start a small indie studio to work in a passion project that is fine.

The problem with big videogames is the amount of work you have to do nowadays. Have these faggots never heard of crunch time?

When you program something like an OS, you don't have to be coding all the time, but you must be thinking a lot so that the code you write is as efficient as it can be.

When you program a big budget game you have to program every hour of the day, there is no time to think because there is just so much work to do. That is why no one bothers with bigger engines anymore. There are even dedicated 'engine' companies like Unreal and Unity now because no one wants to do that shit anymore.

>beta white knight

This shit really russles me. 20 years down the line when there is a stereotype that women coders are complete shit there will only be CS fags to blame. They should have let them do their own homework and learnt the math.
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They hate us cause they ain't us.
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Math grad here, I have nothing against CS. I have actually liked what I have learned as an undergrad (data structures, algorithms, complexity theory, automata, etc). I like discrete math so theoretical CS was a lot of fun. I also like programming so it was all the more fun.
However, one of the reasons I did not take any CS classes this year is because the CS bunch are, for the most part, either neckbeards or insufferable childish memespouters spending the lectures on 9gag/xkcd or playing video games (why even come if you are not even going to pretend to pay attention). And I'm in one of the top 5 unis in my country.

One of my childhood friends (also kind of a 9gag enthusiast..) went to a lower-tier school to learn CS and it's even worse. It is exactly what >>7764227 describes
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>>7764346
>This shit really russles me. 20 years down the line when there is a stereotype that women coders are complete shit there will only be CS fags to blame. They should have let them do their own homework and learnt the math.

Y-y-you don't want to help a gurl, anon? Teheee.
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>>7764330

>TFW I'm a 6'4 110kg bouncer that's learning mathematics in my spare time with the hope of starting a CS degree (or perhaps Mech E) once I get enough credits.

Everyone's going to think I'm some angry meat head.
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>>7764407
I wouldn't help anyone, actually. When you are doing a real major you don't have time to waste on other people unless you don't care about drowning in Cs yourself.

This is why CS uniquely has this problem in STEM. Their courseload is so easy so of course the beta whiteknights offer to help the helpless damsels in academic distress. If you had any real work to do, you'd tell them to fuck right off.
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I heard Java is shit-tier language for pussies, is it true?

I'm currently studying Lua at the moment.
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>>7764346
>They should have let them do their own homework and learnt the math.

Misogyny! You should be ashamed of yourself you filthy chauvinistic pig!
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>>7764530
That picture is funny. She knows that the only reason we men do that is so that you will blow us right?

She is literally teaching his son how to get laid and honestly I can't oppose that. Good on her and good for him. He will be ahead of the boys and will probably lose his virginity before the other boys his age now.

But I'm sure that now the think just thinks 'women deserve this!' but soon, when he gets his first boner the mysoginy gene gets *TRIGGERED* and he realizes that he must only speak to women to get sex.

I remember when my time came. After my first masturbation session I had already lost all respect I had for women. Lost virginity 5 years later.
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>>7764205
I have to agree, I am doing a bioinformatics concentration in comp sci at my uni, 50% of the cs department concentrates on video games, the other half are the networking, security, bio/statistical computing and general science.
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>>7764217
/r/ing a "Discrete Mathematics with Cucks" edit, because it's low-hanging fruit and someone has to do it.

Also ME here planning to do a math minor since it only takes 2 more classes, is discrete mathematics a good choice or should I do linear programming or "advanced engineering mathematics?"
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>>7764748
>advanced engineering mathematics

Aren't ME required to take that anyway?

>is discrete mathematics a good choice

Is it the math department's intro to proofs class?
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>>7764769
It's not required, but apparently it can count as a technical elective. To quote the course catalog:

>Fourier series, Laplace and Fourier transform, and numerical methods for solving initial value and boundary-value problems in partial differential equations are developed. Applications to diffusion wave and Dirichelet problems are given. Matrix methods and special functions are utilized.

I'm not taking Intro to Proofs because it's largely a prerequisite for other classes I won't have the time to take.
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>>7764781

The most useful for a ME would be that (unless you already had some other course covering most of it) and complex variables.
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>>7764187
Simple. CS programs were once intended to turn out CS researchers. However, there is a huge and growing job market for software engineers, so CS programs get bent and dumbed down to crank out software engineers.

>>7764270
>>7764271
As a hiring manager, certs aren't worth jack shit at the upper tiers (Google, Apple, Oracle, etc.). The point of a proper CS degree is that you learned enough theory and background to pick up *any* programming language on the fly and to even write your own if you need to (e.g. DSLs or domain specific languages).

Note that I said *proper* CS degree. However, most dumbass CS majors are all "This theory bullshit is a waste of time! Teach me how to write apps, faget professors!" and then they graduate and wind up as low paid, disposable code monkeys who whine that the job market is crap. The reality is that they are the crap.
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>>7764806
>Simple. CS programs were once intended to turn out CS researchers. However, there is a huge and growing job market for software engineers, so CS programs get bent and dumbed down to crank out software engineers.

Wrong. CS once was a graduate only program but industry pressured universes to start having shitty undergrad programs that don't teach much of anything at all.
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>>7764806
So, the reason that /sci/ hates on computer science is that both /sci/ and the general public wouldn't recognize an actual computer science program it if punched them in the dick?
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>>7764806

I don't mind being a code monkey if I get paid well. I'm only after money so I can go into real estate.
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>>7764806
>>7764830
It has been both of these things at different times in history and at different places. The actual CS undergrad programs did and do exist, anon.
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>>7764806
>proper CS degree

These don't exist. A proper CS degree would require an engineering degree workload and would look something like this:

>Required
Programming
Data Structures
Algorithms
Digital Logic
Computer Architecture
Programming Paradigms
Operating Systems Theory
Advanced System and Network Programming
Programming Languages and Compilers
Theory of Computation
Professionalism, Ethics, Risk-Assessment and Legalities
Personal Grooming and Hygiene (Seminar)
Technical Writing

Linear Algebra
Vector Calculus
Ordinary Differential Equations
Probability
Statistics
Proofs and Abstract Mathematics
Combinatorics and Graph Theory
Numerical Analysis
Modern Geometries (Differential, Affine, Projective, etc)
Abstract Algebra

>Elective Groups (Must pick one course from 10 groups and do at least 13 courses)

>A
Provable Security
Mathematical Cryptography
Cryptographic Implementation and Network Security

>B
Kernel and Driver Development
Compiler Implementation
Malware Analysis and Reverse Engineering

>C
Image Processing
Computer Graphics
Computer Vision

>D
Artificial Intelligence
Natural Language Processing
Pattern Recognition and Data Mining

>E
Combinatorial Optimization and Network Flows
Approximation Algorithms
Linear Programming

>F
Communication Theory
Digital Signal Processing
Information Theory and Coding Theory

>G
Control Theory
Computational Modelling and Simulation
Dynamical Systems Theory

>H
Advanced Complexity Theory
Quantum Computing
Mathematical Logic

>I
Databases
Distributed Systems
Networks

>J
Software "Engineering"
Economics
Mathematical Finance
Co-Op

>K
One year sequence of science courses
Circuits and Microelectronics

>L
2 advanced math courses not overlapping with the above
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>>7764524
Learn c++, then learn more abstract languages (and pay attention to the special different ideas each one has as there's not always an exact 1 to 1 translation between the two)
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>>7764845
Go back to sitting in your php books you dumb code monkey.
Sincerely,
A computer science student.
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>>7764860

>he fell for the work has to he interesting and meaningful meme

Enjoy working all your life. I'll have a bunch of flats earning money for me.
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>>7764863
Enjoy unclogging toilets and dragging other peoples trash off the lawn while fighting with government zoning and price controls.
How do I know this is what it's like? I've had to help friends who are in realestate deal with this, multiple times. Don't fall for the perpetual motion meme.
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>>7764848
>The actual CS undergrad programs did and do exist

Only back in 1968 and very few schools were like this. CS has been dead for decades. Compare:

>Curriculum 68: Recommendations for academic programs in computer science: a report of the ACM curriculum committee on computer science
>Mathematics Courses. The Committee feels that an academic program in computer science must be well based in mathematics since computer science draws so heavily upon mathematical ideas and methods. The recommendations for required mathematics courses given below should be regarded as minimal: obviously additional course work in mathematics would be essential for students specializing in numerical applications.
>Introductory Calculus
>Advanced Multivariate Calculus
>Mathematical Analysis
>Mathematical Analysis II
>Probability and Statistics
>Linear Algebra
>Abstract Algebra
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>>7764875

and 2013

>>Mathematics Requirements in Computer Science
>While nearly all undergraduate programs in computer science include mathematics courses in their curricula, the full set of such requirements varies broadly by institution due to a number of factors. For example, whether or not a CS program is housed in a School of Engineering can directly influence the requirements for courses on calculus and/or differential equations, even if such courses include far more material in these areas than is generally needed for most CS majors. As a result, CS2013 only specifies mathematical requirements that we believe are directly relevant for the large majority of all CS undergraduates (for example, elements of set theory, logic, and discrete probability, among others). These mathematics requirements are specified in the Body of Knowledge primarily in the Discrete Structures (DS) Knowledge Area.

>We recognize that general facility with mathematics is an important requirement for all CS students. Still, CS2013 distinguishes between the foundational mathematics that are likely to impact many parts of computer science—and are included in the CS2013 Body of Knowledge—from those that, while still important, may be most directly relevant to specific areas within computing. For example, an understanding of linear algebra plays a critical role in some areas of computing such as graphics and the analysis of graph algorithms. However, linear algebra would not necessarily be a requirement for all areas of computing (indeed, many high quality CS programs do not have an explicit linear algebra requirement). Similarly, while we do note a growing trend in the use of probability and statistics in computing (reflected by the increased number of core hours on these topics in the Body of Knowledge) and believe that this trend is likely to continue in the future, we still believe it is not necessary for all CS programs to require a full course in probability theory for all majors.
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>>7764850
Drop the Vector Calc, and the DifEQ, make a special Proofs course where they just do inductive proofs, drop the Geometry and Abstract algebra, and I'll agree with you.

Also:
>>Personal Grooming and Hygiene (Seminar)
had me in stitches
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>>7764850
>personal grooming and hygiene
Oh shit it's you again.
Also your list is shit.
And you are shit.
Kill (you)rself.
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>>7764863
>>7764872
Also, don't think for a moment you'll be able to afford even a house for yourself on a code monkey salary.
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>>7764886
>>
How to be a CS major without studying CS (CS, as we know, stands for College Scam)

If you are already in university for any STEM:

Step 1: Be aware of the sides of the software industry.
There is embedded development, desktop development, mobile development and web development.

#2 Choose your path but become a master of all trades

You should focus on just one (initially) but you must know at least one language for each of the tasks so that you don't become useless when your project grows in scope. So here is the list

Embedded programming: C
Desktop programming: C++ or Java, preferably C++
Mobile programming: Java and whatever iOS uses natively.
Front end web development: Javascript
Back end web development: PHP

#3:

Work on small projects as you learn the languages and when you are done, try to program something that works with two languages together, preferably over the internet.

Some may say something like a 'basic chat room' is okay but no, it isn't because nowadays you can just download 'Super Chat Room Engine v456.212' so instead try to do something where you actually have to get in and write it almost from scratch.

#4:

Now that you are equipped to work in big projects you will have to start caring about optimization and efficiency. For that buy 'Introduction to Algorithms', also known as the holy bible. Read it, eat it, masturbate to it, fill the pages with hot sticky cum.

Also read up on data structures that could be useful for potential projects. At least understand basic binary trees.

Congratulations, you are now a professional computer scientist who didn't feel for the College Scam degree.

If you are not a college student and don't plan to go to college for STEM:

#5: Learn Geometry
#6: Learn Linear Algebra
#7: Learn Calculus

Congratulations, now you know more math than a CS major. Feel free to claim you have a PhD in CS because with all that math you know, no one could possibly distinguish you from an actual CS PhD.
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>>7764850
What if I told you that the computer science program I followed was pretty much that? In a three-year program, no less.

Specific differences:
>Personal Grooming and Hygiene (Seminar)
Har har.
>Ordinary Differential Equations
>Modern Geometries (Differential, Affine, Projective, etc)
We had these as electives, not required courses.

>Mathematical Logic
This, on the other hand, was required.

>Databases
>Distributed Systems
>Networks
>Software "Engineering"
>Compiler Implementation
These were all required. The (required part of the) compiler implementation course was pretty basic though (it did not really cover optimizing compilers) so I guess that counts as a half a course.

>Elective Groups
I see seven courses on this list that I actually took (as well as several others not on this list but of comparable level and ontopicness).

>Artificial Intelligence
>Advanced Complexity Theory
Those were two courses that I really would have loved to take but were unfortunately not offered at my university.

>Required
Other required courses in my curriculum that are not on this list mostly involve more computer-sciency mathemathics (plus several more as electives). In particular:
- Dijkstra-style program correctness proofs. The guarded command language. Derivation of algorithms.
- Process theory, or "advanced automata theory" if you prefer.
- A mathematical view of functional programming. That is to say, a functional programming course to the standard required to do Dijkstra-ish mathematical analyses of functional programs.
- Semantics of programs. Operational semantics, denotational semantics, lambda calculus as a mathematical formalism, that sort of thing.
I think those were the required courses. I think there were four more elective courses along the same lines.

So, are you gonna complain that my curriculum CLEARLY doesn't count because it doesn't have those two math courses as required? Or do I sort of have a point when claiming that real CS programs do exist?
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>>7764893
>#5: Learn Geometry
Funny because it's true. Programming instructor at community college couldn't even explain graphics and rectangles with Cartesian coordinates.
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>>7764897
>Ordinary Differential Equations
>ELECTIVES

Are you telling me your university knows that you people are so fucking retarded that they don't even bother making you learn differential equations in fear of all of you fucks dropping out with a 0.0 GPA?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

EVERYONE COME AND LAUGH AT THE RETARD!
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>>7764890

I live with my parents and save the majority of my earnings. In a decade I'll have at least £400k saved up and that doesn't include interest from saving accounts or mutual funds

That's enough for mortgages and equity release on a bunch of flats.

Enjoy working in your job, you really matter anon, you're going to change the world!
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>>7764901
>it's true.
Believe me, I know.

Everything but my last sentence is completely serious. Do this and you are better than a CS major.
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>>7764893

You should also learn discrete math subjects in addition to that by reading the books in >>7763544
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>>7764904
I already have built things that helped change the world, and I've made contributions to popular open source software. I just want to get paid more.
I'm going to continue doing what I love and being creative while you become a dispassionate universally hated rent seeking economic bottleneck trapped into doing blue collar labor to stay in the black.
So yes, I do and will enjoy it.
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>>7764748
>>
>>7764850
>look mom i posted it again
>>
>>7764217
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>>7764925
>being butthurt because you didn't learn fuck all but you still want to pretend like you did.
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>>7764901

I know, shocking right? I bet most CS undergrads can't even tell you the order of the monster group either. What a waste of fucking time!
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>>7764928
I don't even have a cs degree lmao, my undergrad is in economics/math
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>>7764923
>>7764926
Thank you anon, you are my greatest ally.
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>>7764932

Then why are you defending CS? Can't stand the thought your boyfriend is really an idiot?
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>>7764965
i literally posted 6 words, calm down spergboy
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>>7764902
I'm not a CS major, but why would they need ODE's? That seems more in the domain of physics/engineering.
>>
>>7764850
>Programming
>Computer Architecture
>Programming Paradigms
>Operating Systems Theory
>Advanced System and Network Programming
>Professionalism, Ethics, Risk-Assessment and Legalities
>Personal Grooming and Hygiene (Seminar)
>Technical Writing
>Linear Algebra
>Vector Calculus
>Ordinary Differential Equations
>Probability
>Statistics
>Modern Geometries (Differential, Affine, Projective, etc)
>Abstract Algebra

None of these are computer science.
>>
>>7764989
>Personal Grooming and Hygiene (Seminar)

>None of these are computer science.

Oh believe me, we know.
>>
I have a bachelor's degree in BASKET WEAVING SCIENCE!
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>>7764583
bioinformatics is a pretty great specialization for compsci.
>>
Unhealthy generalizations. I'm a grad student studying crypto, and I could change from CS to Math with a few forms without changing anything about my research.
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>>7764989
Abstract algebra at least applies pretty heavily.
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>>7765006
what are you referring to?
I have literally never had to "apply" anything i learned in abstract algebra
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>>7764187

Hey that's my exact car interior

8th generation civic with a 5spd Manual tranny
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>>7764850
I know this is literally bait: the list but at least here in UofT/Waterloo CS specialists go through the majority of this stuff
>>
>science
>>
>>7764187
>computer science
/sci/ is jelly that we have our own board, /g/
>>
>>7764205
>you'll never really be making any large contributions to human knowledge

You realize how much of your "human knowledge" you wouldn't have if CS hadn't given you the internet?

For fuck's sake, just google Watson and health care. Computer scientists have contributed so much that they're running out of things they can contribute, so they're making artificial intelligences that can contribute more than humanly possible.
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>>7764205
>There's countless assholes
>There is assholes
This genius can't even pluralize
>>
>>7765165
>CS hadn't given you the internet

WE WUZ ENGINERES AND SHEIT
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>>7765167
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/there's
Contraction
there's

>contraction of there is

>>There's a strange guy over there.

>contraction of there has

>> There’s been an accident!

>(proscribed) contraction of there are See there're.

>>1971 October 11, John Lennon, “Imagine”, Imagine, Apple Records:
>>>Imagine there’s no countries.

Usage notes

Often used in place of there are, almost universally in spoken English, even when there is would sound incorrect.
>>
>>7765158
>/g/
>computer science
???
>>
>>7764920
> I've made contributions to popular open source software

Would you mind giving an example of your contributions? Not trolling, sincerely interested.
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>>7765169
Haha this.

I love how CS faggots keep trying to claim the computer- when the first general purpose digital computer was built by an engineer and the first general purpose programming language written by the same engineer. ICs where then also first developed by a chemical engineer. And electrical engineers did the rest.

CS's contributions were peripheral AT BEST.
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>>7765681
Yes I don't want you people figuring out who I am.
>>
So /sci/ hates CS. Does /sci/ hate software engineering and programming?
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>>7765801
Software engineers have to take all the engineering and math courses normal engineers have to take so probably not.
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>>7765808
Well, I just switched from software engineering to CS because in my uni its basically the same thing except that software engineering has retarded Business Administration courses.

I'm not against Business Administration but the teachers are retarded and it has nothing to do with engineering, science or computers.

The math is the same if you select calculation based CS.

Note: this applies to my uni, I'm not generalizing.
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>>7764893
>how to be a cs major
>learn basic software development
>then learn a bit of engineering math

??? code monkeys a shit

>>7764989
Programming language theory, OS theory, Discrete probability, algebra, are all important aspects of CS.

>>7765075
That's too bad for you. What kind of CS do you do? If you study the theory of functional programming (hint: not learning a bit of haskel and shitposting in their forums) you'll run into category theory really early.

>>7765808
>Software engineers have to take all the engineering and math courses normal engineers have to take

Sometimes they don't even do this. CS majors usually will take more theoretical classes than a SE major. SE is code monkeying anyway.

CS > SE anyday
>>
>>7765812
I feel you, at my uni the business department has been slowly sloping it's fingers up the CS departments ass. It's really frustrating to hear many of the professors talk about how great psychology degrees are and how related they are to CS.
>>
>>7765801
>software engineering

They aren't Engineers
>>
>>7765879
This, SE is worthless, CS master race all the way.
>>
>>7765879
If they practice engineering principals (understanding and accounting for failure trees and reliability (in terms of % uptime or critical failures per runtime hour). And are taking other responsible precautions while building a critical system (test cases, documentation)) then I would argue they are in fact engineers.
People building most web and mobile applications are not software engineers.
>>
>>7765898
NO, you are not a real engineer if you have a SE degree, even if you're doing engineering work.
>>
>>7765901
Why? It's recognized by ABET and NSPE as an engineering degree.
>>
>>7764207
>>7764212
I hate this "you could learn CS anywhere", no you can't. You can learn programming anywhere, you can't learn CS anywhere.
>>
>>7765879

The pic you posted doesn't say that.
>>
>>7764524
Jesus christ... If the language is somewhat known it probably has a place in the world, the reason that Java is used is explicitly because of JVM and the garbage collector.
>>
>>7765898
This is silly, anon. It makes me suspect you don't actually understand the fancy terms you're using.

Things like failure trees, or analyses in terms of failures per runtime hour, are not engineering principles at all. Engineering *principles* are something like "understand and then optimize the reliability of the thing you are designing". Things like failure trees are particular *techniques* for doing so that apply to particular types of problems, and not to others. They are commonly applicable, sure, but by no means universally applicable, and thus can't be engineering principles as such.

For example, the notion of failure trees is a model for analyzing the reliability of an object in terms of the reliability of its components, *assuming that failures in the components are uncorrelated*. Notice how important that last part is -- if your four engines generally all fail at the same time, then having four engines for redundancy reasons is not going to improve your reliability (at least, not the reliability against component failure). In software, the independence-of-component-failures assumption generally does not hold, which means failure tree analysis is not usually a useful tool in a software engineer's repertoire.

And that's fine, because "do failure tree analysis" was never a principle of engineering in the first place. The principle is to understand the reliability as best as possible and to improve it as much as possible. If the techniques you actually have to measure and improve such things are limited, then that sucks and it's going to negatively affect the reliability of the artifacts you produce; but it does not make you any the less of an engineer.
>>
>>7764187
/sci/ hates anything that isn't math. The reason for that is the insecurity of most of the (math) people here.

I'm a physics guy but I still would like majoring in any of the stem fields.
>>
>>7765942
>independence-of-component-failures assumption generally does not hold

Got a reference for that?
>>
>>7765706
Google was made by computer scientists (Larry page etc). And more importantly :
The WORLD WIDE WEB was made by Tim Berners-Lee, a computer scientist.

Nobody is claiming computer scientists invented computers. That doesn't even make sense. The anon was talking about the internet and I assume by "the internet" he was referring to the world wide web and things like Google, etc. Because you don't magically plug into the internet and absorb knowledge, normally you look up things on websites.
>>
>>7764409
Keep in mind that ME is one of the most challenging, content-heavy degrees offered at university. There's just so much derived and empirical knowledge, and you'll also have to do some math that would make these freshman math major memers wet their bed to simulate it all. As someone who helps CS kids with their third and fourth year homework, ME is a good ~4x more challenging.

Also remember that Stanford originally didn't want to offer an undergrad CS program because they thought there wasn't enough material for a four year degree.
>>
>>7765924
Look me in the eye and tell me that 90% of college 'CS' degrees aren't glorified programming courses.
>>
>>7765984
I doubt you're going to find an authoritative source on this, because it's kinda too obvious for words.

The whole reason most non-software components fail in mostly-uncorrelated ways is that in most non-software components, failure is largely a matter of wear and tear; or, more accurately, the uncorrelated-failures assumption generally holds as long as we talk about wear-based failures, and stops holding when we consider other sources of failures. (If I crash my plane into a building, odds are the four engines will all start failing at pretty much the same time! And that doesn't contradict the independence of failure assumption, because this breakage is not due to wear and tear.)

In software, obviously, there is NO wear and tear. Zero. So this whole artifice just doesn't apply at all.
>>
>>7765924
I call bullshit, since I'm apparently better at my hobby than the people who spend $80k and four years studying it.

Brb, working on my evolutionary compression algorithm.
>>
>>7765999
That's correct. Which is why you can't learn CS at 90% of colleges. Looks like you are in agreement with >>7765924.
>>
>>7765989

Don't worry, anon, I'm smart.
>>
>>7766006

Wouldn't it also apply if the appearance of component-breaking input is random?

An input that triggers a bug in component A is not necessarily going to break component B at the same time.
>>
>>7766010
If 90% of accredited college courses in a subject are complete jokes then maybe something's wrong with it, holmes.
>>
>>7766025
>Wouldn't it also apply if the appearance of component-breaking input is random?
It would, yes. But they aren't.

If you run two copies of the same system, they are usually going to display the same bugs for the same inputs. This isn't always the case, but it's usually the case. So the independence of failure is broken. Running two completely independent implementations of the same systems would solve that to a degree (not nearly completely, as lots of of bugs involve weird inputs that are likely to trip up lots of unsuspecting naive implementations, but still to a considerable degree), but that opens up another huge can of worms for fairly obvious reasons -- it's about as sensible as building a plane with four different engines from different manufacturers with different designs to guard against engine design errors. Yeah, it guards against that problem, but it introduces SO many new problems of its own that it really isn't worth it.
>>
>>7765942
Well I'm sorry I'm a CS major and not an SE but you obviously knew what I meant by that.
>>7765987
>Tim Berners-Lee
He's a physics major though. That just confirms what everyone in this thread is saying (major in physics, math, or EE and teach yourself compsci)
> I assume by "the internet" he was referring to the world wide web
Fuck you, that's not what he said and that's probably not what he meant either.
>>
>>7765924
>you can't learn CS anywhere

Yes you can and you can do it in less than a year of study

http://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/mit-challenge/
>>
>>7766079
Google is much more impressive than TCP/IP or WWW
>>
>>7766090
This is bait.

Here's your reply.
>>
>>7766094
WWW has a simple protocol HTTP
You also have a markup language, HTML, and you need to parse that and render it. That's simple, we're talking about the oldest versions of HTML and HTTP.

TCP is quite simple to implement, and none of its ideas are particularly novel. Same goes for IP.

PageRank at least is an interesting idea. It's reasonably simple to implement, but the idea isn't obvious.
>>
>>7765808
>Software engineers have to take all the engineering and math courses normal engineers have to take

Show me a SE program that requires PDEs
>>
>>7765898
>practice engineering principals
>understanding and accounting for failure trees and reliability (in terms of % uptime or critical failures per runtime hour). And are taking other responsible precautions while building a critical system (test cases, documentation)

That's technician and business principals. Engineering principals are the use of science and math to solve problems. SE use neither.
>>
Im going for cs because I want into computers, am I really so fucked?
I dont want to be a math wizard
>>
>>7766209
You want IT ("code monkey") not CS.
>>
>>7766162
Ok, you show me a Mechanical Engineering program that requires PDEs. (Choosing MechE because it is the most generic of the engineering programs).
>>
>>7766215
PDEs specificly as apposed to just DEs? Because my school requires DE for every degree with "engineering" in the name.
>>
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>>7765938

No, Java is fucking worthless.
>>
So, basically, scis hate boils down to ''muh mathematics on muh course is harder''.
>>
>>7766222
I like that picture.
C++ should probably be some big pickup truck though.
>>
>>7766224
Mathematics and physics are the only things worth studying at UNI.
The rest is bullshit interfaces stuff and language stuff (programming and human language) that you can pick up yourself in a day or so.
>>
>>7766224
>muh degree should be job training

Anti-intellectuals need to get the fuck out
>>
>>7766232
Yeah you can totally pick up organic chemistry, biochemistry, poly material science, physical chemistry, strength of materials, chemical solutions thermodynamics, transfer processes, reaction kinetics and reaction engineering all needed to study biochemical engineering at an undergrad level "in a day or so".

Don't make me laugh, if anything can be picked up quickly it's math and physics due to how light the courseload. It only takes long to study for unintelligent grinders.
>>
>>7766282
>Yeah you can totally pick up organic chemistry, biochemistry, poly material science, physical chemistry, strength of materials, chemical solutions thermodynamics, transfer processes, reaction kinetics and reaction engineering all needed to study biochemical engineering at an undergrad level "in a day or so".
>>7766232
>Mathematics and physics are the only things worth studying at UNI.
>physics

And apparently reading comprehension isn't something you can pick up easily either. (I suppose physical science including physics would have been a better way to word that)
>>
>>7766232
lmao @ the alpha nerd fantasy, "everything can be picked up in a day or so". there are some people who are truly prodigious geniuses and can self-teach literally any subject, but university educations are still the gold standard in most industries.
>>
>>7764189
CS is pure, it is applied logic just like math is applied logic.
>>
>>7766298
Yeah because in the age of touchscreen UIs reading language/interference documentation is apparently really hard.
>>
>>7766222
As someone who isn't interested in this kind of thing, could you explain what the pictures are supposed to mean?
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>>7766301
>cs is applied logic
>math is applied logic

shut the fuck up
dont talk about things you never bothered to study
>>
>>7766381
Actual CS really is almost entirely applied math and logic. The problem with CS undergrad degrees is that they're too busy talking about interfaces to bother with that.
>>
>>7766387
>Applied math
Oh great you're starting to kind of sound like you make sense
>... and [applied] logic
back to being retarded. you don't know what logic is
>>
>>7766222
Love that pic:

C++: Works nicely and it is beautiful to look at
Java: Hideous
C#: Does the job but incredibly impractical
C: Looks old but will never fail you.
Perl: Looks retarded
Python: Come kids! This ride is for you!
Lisp: Looks cool but who the fuck needs that

A literal representation of all those programming languages. Truly a masterpiece.
>>
>>7766407
>A literal representation
A figurative statement.
>>
>Software Engineering
>everyone around me is a normal person
>retards got kicked out by Physics, DE and Discrete Maths in the second semester
Is "I wanna make vidya so I'll go CS!" an American thing? Because nobody here wants to do it.
>>
>>7764372
this
and cs+se+mathematics+ds+esofoa=god-tier
>>
>>7766499
CS in Europe is probably very different than the US.
Keep in mind that US universities typically expect students to take 30 hours of art/philosophy and also don't expect them to know calculus.
>>
In 2nd year CS + Math right now. Love the more theoretical courses, but now it seems like they're catering to the people who couldn't get into Software Engineering with this user friendly design oriented stuff. Worst part is the damn course is so easy that the department knows the only way for them to get people to do poorly is to workload them to death, so we have multiple midterms back to back.
I should've gone for Math spec and CS minor instead of CS spec and Math major.
>>
>>7766530
Just some german CS program.

https://www.tuhh.de/t3resources/tuhh/download/studium/pruefungsamt/po/Plaene_ab_WS15_16/E/20150422_Studienplan_Bachelor_CSBS_KohorteWiSe2015.pdf

>no art/philosophy courses at all

I can't understand the CS meme. It's one of the hardest programs here.
>>
>>7766530
>CS in Europe is probably very different than the US.
German here. Lol no, it isn't. CS is probably even more shit tier here than it is in 'murrica. At our universities CS programmes barely touch any stuff beyond repetition of high school math and retarded "software engineering" business presentation bullshit. The majority of the students are mentally handicapped and don't belong in university at all.

>>7766560
>It's one of the hardest programs here.
Vielleicht wenn du ein verblödetes Videospielkind mit nem 4,0 Abitur bist. Jeder Student der Naturwissenschaften lacht über Informatik.
>>
>>7766571
Du weißt sicherlich, dass CS unter MINT zusammengefasst ist? Weiß ja nicht was du studierst mein Freund, aber den meisten fehlt der Zugang zum Formalismus der in der Informatik gebraucht wird. Wir reden von arischer Informatik und das meiste was dort im Studium vorkommt hatte ich bis dato (6. Semester) eben nicht in der Oberstufe.

Das meiste wird in der Industrie samt Praxis wohl obsolet sein, aber ich verwette meinen Arsch drauf, dass du a) Nichts fertig studiert hast b) Das Studium nicht packen würdest

Underage bitte raus.
>>
>>7766583
>aber den meisten fehlt der Zugang zum Formalismus der in der Informatik gebraucht wird
Weil Buchstaben statt Zahlen schon zu schwer sind für minderbegabten Proletendreck. Geh mal schön zurück zu deinen Videospielen. An der Uni hast du nichts verloren.

Nebenbei bemerkt habe ich einen Masterabschluss in Mathematik. Behalt deine kindischen Projektionen für dich, Vollpfosten.
>>
I just chose CS because nothing else interested me. If it doesn't work out then oh well.
>>
>>7764583
Bioinformatics looks very cool. I've been hoping to get into computational linguistics.
>>
>>7766587
Aber ich spiele doch keine Spiele? An der Uni darf heutzutage jeder 17-jährige drauf. Und den Abschluss gibt's gleich dazu.

Im Internet hat jeder einen PhD in Mathe oder EE. Ich übrigens nun auch. :^)
Das Schöne ist ja du als Mathematker wohl bei irgendeiner Versicherung deine Shekels machst und du jobtechnisch einfach blöd aufgestellt bist.
Was kommt als nächstes? Promotion?
Kannst ja dann deinen erbämlichen Versuch starten, in die IT-Branche einzusteigen, wenn du merkst, dass es jobtechnisch für einen Mathematiker heute kaum mehr was zu reissen gibt.

Wieso eigentlich so passiv-aggressiv? Hat irgendein Informatik-Nerd deine 3.14qt abgeschleppt und du hegst Groll?
Vermutlich musst du arbeitsloser Mathematiker nichtmal morgen irgendwo hin und betrinkst dich aus Frustration.
>>
>>7766594
Bioinformatics means being a code monkey for biologists.
>>
>>7766596
rekt
>>
>Do fuck all during my physics bach
>get rightfully kicked out for being a complete fuck up
>move to CS
>Straight A's and A+'s while the rest of the students bitch and moan about the first sign of mathematics

It's not a meme, CS is for retards, absolutely. The great thing is that you can distinguish yourself easily when you are surrounded by retards.
>>
>>7766560
>https://www.tuhh.de/t3resources/tuhh/download/studium/pruefungsamt/po/Plaene_ab_WS15_16/E/20150422_Studienplan_Bachelor_CSBS_KohorteWiSe2015.pdf
I wish I hadn't dicked around as a kid and could study there.
;-;
>>
>>7766596
>Hat irgendein Informatik-Nerd deine 3.14qt abgeschleppt und du hegst Groll?

lel 2bh
>>
>>7765000
It's much better than the general computer science I was doing before.
>>7766594
It's really interesting. I've mostly been helping the chem department visual proteins with the 2 other bioinformatic guys in the department. This semester we're going to be working with genes, hopefully.
>>7766597
Lol, not even close. Sometimes I wish it were that easy, but it isn't.
>>
>>7765999
>>7766010

And the other 10% is still terrible
>>
>>7766392
He's right. Good code requires a lot of logic. It isn't just equations. In fact, equations aren't used that much when put against logic.
>>
>>
>>7764583
Sounds like your uni mislabeled IT as CS then
>>
ITT: People who went to a shit university believing that CS is all just software engineering and IT. You're as bad as the strawmen you're criticising, but I agree with you that anyone who studies CS and says "I hate maths" is a fucking idiot, they will also fail their first year at any credible instiute
>>
>>7767796
>No true CS-major fallacy

All CS programs suck. Some suck even more than others, but they all are terrible.
>>
>>7764187
autism
>>
>>7766222
You're probably right, C++ is my first and the language I like the most anyways.

The people who write Java are like old people; They don't clean up after themselves.
>>
>>7767782
I'd agree.. But at least they offer courses in algorithms, database theory, computer networking, operating systems, comp architecture/assembly lang, compiler design, artificial intelligence (I was surprised to learn it wasn't about fucking videos considering the population that makes up our program), and software design, ethics, testing and implementing. There's a legitimate study for computer science here, but nobody is taking it but a few of us.
>>
>>7766298
>can self-teach literally any subject
that's everybody with half a brain

I really don't like this meme that being taught by a teacher/lecturer is somehow different and easier than just picking up the book.

If you can learn a subject from a teacher then you can learn it yourself.
>>
>>7768127
Those are the bare minimum classes. Instead of getting a major, you just complete a minor.

CS at undergrad level should be reclassified as a minor.
>>
>>7766232
>Mathematics and physics are the only things worth studying at UNI.
>The rest is bullshit interfaces stuff and language stuff (programming and human language) that you can pick up yourself in a day or so.

I assume you meant the mathematics and engineering are the only things in "computer *" worth studying at uni
>>
>>7766596
Its true though, we (Netherlands) dont neccessarily laugh at CS majors but we all know that when we want a breather, we take a CS course. Its just that much easier than math or physics courses.

Dont get me wrong, I love CS. What I dont like is that there are very little actual "CS" courses in the CS major. Most come down to... learn to program better, or some shit.
>>
>>7769696
Name one other thing.
It's definitely true in computer* but I'm not convinced it wouldn't apply everywhere else.
>>
>>7766298
>everything can be picked up in a day or so

Everything? No. But simple stuff like learning how to drive, cooking mashed potatoes, or theoretical computer science is totally possibly without having to take dedicated classes on it.
>>
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>>7770236
Fuck you!

In my school we learned mathematics, theoretical kinematics, dynamics, physics, mechanical engineering, aerodynamics, material science, metallurgy, chemistry, petrol engineering, environmental science, electrical and computer engineering in our expert driving program. Just because your school was a shitty chauffeur monkey program doesn't mean they all are.
>>
>>7764187
cause /g/ exists for you to post there, spare /sci/ from the autism
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