>>6604470 Thanks for the article, but allow me to rephrase. Can someone help me understand from a neurological and psychological perspective how a DMT trip affects a human? In terms of affects on the psyche. Also, it'd be wonderful to hear from /sci/entists who have taken the molecule and their thoughts on the subject.
Itt: Textbook flexing, nonsensical conclusions and a bunch of assholes pretending biology and neurology has told us SHIT about the nature of consciousness. versus hippies regurgitating every little piece of eastern ideology and terence mckenna they can almost kind of begin to comprehend.
No thanks, did that song and dance for years. But seriously OP, try DMT. It is excellent. And it will definitely show you some more inclusive perspectives.
>>6604505 Why do many people who have used it see similar things? Is it due to the parts of the brain being affected?
Also, many people seem to have a common epiphany about the universe about how man is just nature. Is this delusion, a result of seeing crazy imagery, or is it an effect of the the random serotonin receptor binding?
>>6604498 Like immersing onesself in a hum or frequency that permeates and includes existence as we understand it. Suddenly the parameters you use to define and conceptualize reality don't stand up to causal reasoning, because it just seems obvious that causality is something much more integrated and simultaneous than we understand it currently. It's not like it makes you realize this big thing, moreso it dissolves and illuminates for you every facet of the things you already thought, showing you just how ridiculous and baseless your conceptions of anything actually are, leaving only the truth, whatever that is, and it's infinite illumination that permeates all things whatever it is. But then such a blinding light causes you to look away and Hey look, something shiny. You're back to existing subjectively and viewing life through a lense of pretense and preference again.
>>6604514 I am a biochemical engineer, and OP. I have tried it many times. However, whenever I try to find good information on DMT and consciousness I find that I am disappointed in the lack of research. This is the realm where science, pseudoscience, philosophy, religion, science-fiction, spirituality, and mysticism seem to merge. I look forward to humanity understanding consciousness more in the future.
>>6604524 Yeah people don't like to fund legitimate research that could shift paradigms and undo models of thought, disprove a few still-living sciences, make the arms and energy industries drop a lot of profit for the sake of efficiency, have a scientific ground on which to discuss the topics of philosophy. It's all just too perfect a world for the people who fund the research.
>>6604521 I haven't had any experience with DMT but I can say that your description rang pretty true to my experience with other psychedelics. Nice job making a very abstract experience understandable.
However, I believe that taking psychedelic experiences too literally can be misleading. My philosophy that the thoughts and sights you have while tripping are abstract messages from your subconscious mind, messages that need to be interpreted, much like a dream.
>tfw shitty philosopher (actually academically trained and what not though) Finally, I get to flex my shit on this board. ( I never come here) >>6604521 Think of it like peeling away pieces of an onion in your conception of reality. Notably, the sense of self and the things attached to it if you trip hard enough. The hum/frequency bit reminds me incredibly of when I tripped on ~25 hits of acid, but that was more of an uncomfortable slow destruction of the self rather than the smooth slip away into a detached view of self and reality DMT can bring. When you're tripping DMT, you're thrown into a much more basic region of your mind and possibly from a 3rd person view. You skip past the complex layers of wants, needs, and desires; landing upon the more existential ones. >>6604538 Spot on with that last bit. You end up peering into the raw self. If you want a harsh look, then I recommend tripping hard on salvia. It's the twisted whore cousin of DMT. The soft and gentle methods of DMT are replaced with a sadistic and harsh one with salvia, but it's amazingly fantastic in its own way if you can bear it and analyze it. >>6604456 I think I stumbled upon his rant (or something) years ago and if I remember correctly, he covers it pretty well. DMT is made naturally in the pineal gland, which will make you dream and can cause hallucinations in times of great stress (ie, death [light at the end of the tunnel effect] or trauma). Smoking DMT is basically forcibly going into dream mode, but with a much higher quantity of DMT and all at once. So, you're skipping past a lot of the attachments present in dreams and going straight to the most raw points of your psyche with the volume up to 11. If you believe in spirituality or introspection, it's great.
I'm surprised this thread stayed up overnight. When in the future does /sci/ think that humanity will have a deep enough understanding of the brain to be able to truly explore and comprehend the vastness of consciousness? For anyone who has taken DMT, you know how "real" the trip can seem. This vividness calls into question humanity's perception of the universe and allows a medium through which man can learn more about himself and the universe around him. I feel that if most religious persons across the world were subjected to such a molecule, albeit after slow and gradual progression of increasingly potent psychedelic use, that they could potentially see the world for what it truly is. This molecule opens minds, but it must be coupled with an education sufficient enough to understand what your brain is doing, otherwise I think that this would fuck some people up.
I do think it strange as to the recurring themes in people's reports. Obviously everyone sees elves because they see slightly altered humanoids, which isn't too weird. But why the whole connecting with nature thing? People tend to get that on a lot of psychs.
>>6605050 I agree. The machine elf visualizations are postulated to be a result of the mechanism within your brain that is used to identify faces. With all of the random data and compiling errors, your brain has problems processing what it is perceiving and you get faces out of nowhere. Having tripped myself, I'm not entirely sure if this is entirely correct.
The whole connecting with nature thing is, in my opinion, a by-product of being thrust into a "reality" that is so vivid and "real", yet so indescribable and wonderfully fantastic that your entire thought processes shift. You start to think about how what you perceive might not be real. You start to question what is real. This leads into the realization that there is so much left to learn and that we have come so far. The feelings that you get are so intense that you realize the true nature of the world and begin to question everything. Those with critical thinking skills and knowledge of the scientific process are better able to make the connection to nature and reality, whereas those with less education seem to believe it to be mystical and religious.
Ummm....couldn't it just possibly be that any of these things change "your reality" because they basically screw up the way your brain processes information? I feel like that's really all the brain is for, anyway, processing and storing information. "Reality" is an agreed upon shared experience as perceived by a ton of normally functioning brains. If you believe for one second that there is a reality separate from our own personal experience (i.e, no humans exist, world still spins through space, plants still grow, etc) then the whole concept of drugs doing anything other than simply "crossing the wires" is moot.
I think of "normal" reality like watching the world through a video display. Mess with the wires connecting the display to the camera, and you get weird effects. Did it really "change reality"? Well, no.
>>6605332 >psychedelic information systems kids used to do that all the time back in the late 80s, early 90s. when it happens, you've gotta remove the nintendo cartridge and blow in it.
>>6605413 For all we know, it could be that the DMT "experience" doesn't even exist, that the drug merely corrupts our memory after-the-fact so we REMEMBER the trippy experience without ever actually having it.
>>6605426 see >>6604571 The video concerns psychedelic information systems. Don't know if bait, but I replied.
Also, have you "experienced" DMT? I'm not quite sure if the after-the-fact corruption is accurate. The trip lasts 5 minutes, during which a time dilation effect seems to occur. However, at the end of the trip, much like waking suddenly from a dream, the experience is slowly forgotten. It is truly a remarkable experience, especially for anyone interested in exploring the limits of human consciousness and perception.
>>6605423 Not the dude you responded to, but I have to say that philosophy does have some importance here. Neuroscience, psychology, psychopharmacology, philosophy, artificial intelligence, computing, and various other fields describe bits and peaces of the experience. Further study will hopefully be able to fully explain the effects of DMT beyond binding to serotonin receptors in a random fashion causing confusion in the memory systems. This is why further study is warranted in order to dispel the pseudoscientific explanations while understanding fully the effects, ramifications, and perceptual experience of DMT.
>>6605413 Let us first define Reality as the true state of the Universe. Our perceptions and limits of the human brain allow us a glimpse of said reality. For example, we can only detect the electromagnetic waves of the visible spectrum, but there are creatures that use and can detect other frequencies of electromagnetism. This is a simplified explanation of why Reality is not defined by the human experience.
>>6605495 The thing about philosophy is it's divorced from observable reality. Nothing a philosopher says about DMT (or about anything else for that matter) is ever falsifiable. On any particular question (e.g. "is the experience real or is it just a corrupted memory of a nonreal experience?") you could publish papers taking either stance. And if a pro philosopher were forced at gunpoint to choose which of those opposing papers was more authoritative, whether consciously or not, they'd probably rely on the prestige of the authors
>>6605526 You could say the same thing about scientists, dumbass. A philosopher is trained to understand how things work along with how ideas and theories can work with one another. Scientists have it easy, since they only work with philosophy of the natural; attempting to understand how things of the physical are put together. Philosophers often have to deal in the more airy subjects and it can be a bitch and a half. If in those papers of yours there were explanations of specialist things, then a philosopher would have no less issue making sense of it than would a blanket term "scientist" from a different field. Get your head out of your ass, you pompous faggot.
>>6605576 No. Taking the example of whether the experience is real or corrupted memory... A real scientist might look at recorded brainwaves associated with known instances of real experiences and known instances of fake memories, and see which one DMT resembles (as measured using quantitative means). This would be inappropriate in a philosophy journal.
>>6605593 anyone who wants can utilize quantitative data, but after doing so, it should be submitted to an appropriate journal, e.g. a neurosci journal or psychology journal. if you sent what is essentially a science paper to a philosophy journal, the editor wouldn't even have any idea who would be the appropriate peer reviewers.
If a mathematician does some continental philosophy on the side, he doesn't publish it in a math journal. The fact he's a mathematician by trade doesn't make everything he does, mathematics.
Ok I am a neuroscience graduate currently doing my Ph.D. the real answer is we have no fucking idea. DMT acts on similar receptors to LSD. 5HT2A receptors cause intracellular calcium increase in neurons causing increased firing. however fMRI studies show decreased firing in the temporal and cingulate cortex. It is really not possible to say but they most likely disrupt underlying processing that sharpens your vision and definetely places an object in the room this means that an object will eminate colours and shapes. DMT may in fact disrupt this processing so much that the actual object becomes indistinguishable but that is just speculation.
>>6605705 That is very interesting. If you've ever done DMT, you'll recall the insanely high apparent resolution of the trip. Is this resolution due to affecting the brain's receptors directly or is it due to something else? The trip on DMT often seems more "real" than this "reality". That's what many seasoned psychonauts state after a DMT trip. You cannot maintain your internal thought dialogue and control during the experience. I appreciate hearing from you though. Thanks for the insight.
>>6605719 Sorry for slow reply i went to bed. Anyway my thought process which is just random speculation. Basically what you perceive as sight is not what actually enters the eye information is split up into different areas in the brain undergoing more and more processing. For example colour and movement are processed in two different brain regions. psychedelics in general will cause us to perceive objects radiating this is most likely because we can not place the objects definitely. We are realizing more and more how much the brain actually works like a computer the fractals you see are a result of the algorithm used to place objects and define boundaries somehow.
DMT like any other drug is reliant on acting on the brains receptors (by the very definition of receptors) while there is a broad range of receptors it acts on blocking of the 5HT2a receptor with a drug like ketanserin will prevent obvious DMT effects. (This is also why LSD loses effectiveness with multiple administrations)
>>6606646 So to sum up my argument the insanely high resolution is a result of the brains underlying algorithm being decreased in some areas and increased in others. Thats is why the resolution seems hyper real because it is the very thing that causes you to see objects sharply itself but in over drive.
the problem with studying DMT is that it is outside the realm of testable hypothesis. However we are getting close if you are interested you should google the blue brain project. We are close to understanding how cells in the cortex interact to actually create phenomena. Once we have this it will be possible to ask how DMT changes brain calculations.
>>6605418 This. Every tryptaminic substance you're discussing is schedule I. You're not going to just get a DEA license for something that isn't clinically and scientifically based. How would you even go about researching this? If you want it to be neurology, then there already is ongoing research... the only reason you seem to be generally unaware is that it's not directly stated to be related... and you probably enjoy living the oh-so-prosecuted, "rebellion with a cause" (contrarian) world.
>>6606654 >it acts on blocking of the 5HT2a receptor >the problem with studying DMT is that it is outside the realm of testable hypothesis I don't think you understand how actual pharmacology works... You're treating DMT differently because you want to believe it's somehow inherently different. It's researchable like every other pharmacologically active substance is, just not in the "omg mysticism" sense you're speaking of.
>>6606892 "Tripping" is not something the DEA considers to be a medically relevant phenomenon. So good luck getting your tests.
The clown that did the DMT "research" for "The Spirit Molecule" probably ruined further research forever with his terribly pathetic study. His hypothesis was untestable by the method he used and basically the outcome of his research was a few trip reports and some dosage info, which would be great if DMT were legal, but otherwise is useless.
>>6606946 they aren't that different... but the thing about pot is it's not just 1 drug, it's a mix of many psychoactive and even anti-psychoactive cannabinoids that effect you.
THC has a psychedelic effect on the brain which you can especially notice in higher doses, mixing two psychedelics together does enhance it. although, CBD actually functions as an anti-psychotic in the brain, so marijuana rich in CBD will actually dampen the effects, although I'm pretty sure THC is the main constituent of cannabinoids in marijuana regardless of what strain...
>>6606958 This person pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'm actually about to start dosing CBD-enriched hemp oil (you can see Dixie Botanicals, Cibdex, or Pure CBD Cheeba Chews; all of these are legal in the U.S.) to function as an anxiolytic and antidepressant.
>>6606962 i also recently read about using CBD to treat schizophrenia... apparently it's just as effective as pharmaceutical anti-psychotics with pretty much no side effects. amazing shit, but you need a high dose that costs an insane amount of money, apparently 500mg daily, plus there's no real testimonials for it's long term use, only in short term.
>>6606886 2cb was used in therapy, was FDA approved, and was still blacklisted by the DEA. Is it not undue censorship to prevent the study of particular chemicals, especially when their toxicity, lethal dose, and addictiveness are practically non-existent, as well as the fact that there are positive uses? It's the system my friend. The $50 billion and growing private prison industry. Use your head and critical thinking skills outside of your college major. Be a responsible human and use your fucking head.
>>6606915 You do realize that dimethyltryptamine is just as much as a drug as caffeine or any other substance you have receptors in your brain for, right? It's a fucking molecule. This is a scientific discussion. M00t would agree with this post. Thanks for the links though Mr. DEA. Sorry your drug war has failed...
>>6607938 I am not very knowledgeable on 2C-B specifically, so please bear with me here. The most information I could find was on Erowid, which I consider to be for the most part reliable and in good faith. (There is some institution-sanctioned/"scholarly" research done on 2C-B from what I can see, though, but not of much help here) Their page on 2C-B entitled "DEA Ruling on Scheduling" states "The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has notified the DEA that there are no exemptions or approvals in effect under Section 505 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act for 4-bromo-2,5-DMPEA. A search of the scientific and medical literature pertaining to 4-bromo-2,5-DMPEA revealed no indications of current medical use in treatment in the United States." I also see on Wikipedia under it says "It first saw use among the psychiatric community as an aid during therapy". However, this links back to Erowid and I cannot find anything regarding it when viewed. (I also could not find any research papers recording this.)
From what I can tell, the logic presented by the DEA Deputy Administrator and Assistant Secretary for Health is consistent (albeit of course a commonly acknowledged ridiculous notion to do so in the first place, but that is not to say that their effort is completely unfound... we can discuss this if you'd like, but it seems to stray away from the point). They are classified by the public as "research chemicals" for a pretty fair reason. I would say the best course of action would be for research on variables that I'm sure you're familiar with, such as the borderline useful median lethal dosage, long-term effects, etc. (which I see you say are practically non-existent... while I think that in a collective sense, there are a general lack of immediate adverse effects, I do not think that is basis for them being non-existent... long terms are of high concern here as well) *refer to the reply for remaining response*
>>6608026 [cont.] There is no reason that a credible group couldn't obtain a DEA license for legitimate research. This, I think, shows that the scheduling can be seen as protection of innocent people from a substance that is unknown in some respects (in contrast to other state-sanctioned or even incredibly well-known illicit substances.). Is this legally justified? Probably not, but I do not think it is the censorship you're construing it as.
I agree with what you're saying. The general lack of immediate adverse effects is exactly what worries me about GMOs. I think that multiple people are just trying to throw the thread off topic, so thank you for providing a succinct response to one of the goons.
>Why do many people who have used it see similar things? Is it due to the parts of the brain being affected?
>Also, many people seem to have a common epiphany about the universe about how man is just nature. Is this delusion, a result of seeing crazy imagery, or is it an effect of the the random serotonin receptor binding?
My post contributed that there really was no known answer to these questions. This is not an information-free response; the lack of information is, itself, a piece of data.
>>6607962 It is not, a trip is not a conscious experience, it is the brain coping with confusion caused by chemical damage in nonconscious ways because our brain is not accustomed to or designed to metabolize those harmful chemicals.
Het /sci/ I see we're talking about tripping so I'll share babbys first trip. Which was absolute insanity.
>Be in 10th grade >1 tab of 25-i >In a friends house with like 5 other people >I enjoyed certain parts. Wavy trees, crazy feeling, all that jazz >Get stuck in crazy thought loop >Get really fucked up >too fucked up >Realize I'm just a monkey held onto a rock in space >Realize I'm just a small little processor in a computer with infinite data >Realize how dumb I am >Hit friend throw phone and throw q ball >Start spitting random numbers because I need a pass-code to reality >My friend morphs into a Buddhist monk and then Biggie Smalls. >was like this for hours
>>6605050 They don't look like humans bub. "Elf" is just how Terence McKenna described them because they seemed "mischievious" in nature. He saw jewewled self dribbling basketballs and they were machine elves. I saw something similar to pic related. They were all connected like a mesh/net and totempoles at once.
>>6604456 >psychologically You'll never be the same, but you also won't know the difference coherently. >neurologically -I'm no brain scientist but I've done drugs. I'll just say this: it will give you a rush where you feel many old nightmares be destroyed, and new fantasies created. -It will penetrate the blood-brain barrier to make nearly every neurotransmitter work faster. Parts of the brain that don't get connected often soon will become so. Your senses mean more, start to overlap, and are even physically enhanced. -Carl Sagan said "the brain has its own language for testing the structure and consistency of the universe". DMT is a link towards "suspending" your brain's current language so that it can experiment - make new links, erase old irrelevant ones. It's like dreaming, except it's been externally induced and you regain lucidity just about 7 to 12 minutes "in". -Any feelings of "interconnectedness" or "spiritual revelation" you get are absolutely true and correct to have
>>6604519 >Why do many people who have used it see similar things? Is it due to the parts of the brain being affected?
How do you know you're seeing the same things? Why would you be surprised if they did? When it comes down to it you're asking "Why do different people have the same reaction to a drug?" when this should make sense.
As for all that spiritual wooo I'm going to make a guess that their minds are already pre-loaded with a whole heap of touchy feely wooo about DMT that they read on erowid or something. Anyone who gets there hands on DMT is probably going to be a "drug person" if you know what I mean. DMT is one of those niche drugs you don't just get thrown at you down the street like cocaine or something.
I believe it. When tripping and being able to handle it it just feels like your brain is processing things at a higher capacity
that being said I think doing it too much is a bad thing
Don't use psychedelics like drugs (ex. partying, or tripping to see colors) but instead as homework and I think you'll be less likely to run into trouble
I've gained too much positive benefit from psychs to hate on them (my depression cured (srs), etc) but people need to respect the experience. Otherwise they'll have bad trips and freak out and keep this shit banned
>>6607943 >appeal to nature >it's a molecule >fatal toxins aren't molecules >heroin doesn't agonize ?-opioid receptors because by nature a substance having a receptor "intended for it" means it's safe and good! You don't have receptors "for" DMT. It's a tryptamine and thus, by nature, agonizes 5-HT receptors. These receptors are NOT somehow intended for DMT.
>>6611406 Again, just because it's "natural" or even endogenous to the mammalian system does not warrant absolute safety. How about endogenously biosynthesized catecholamines like epinephrine? Why do you think certain substances such as d-methamphetamine can be so dangerous? Even, say, exogenously introduce epinephrine on its own can have fatal results, although this is not a perfect comparison. (I'm not intending to campaign against DMT here, I'm trying to present why I don't think it's for the reasons mentioned.)
It also still holds up that no receptors specifically intended for DMT exist, but I do see how you're relating it.
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