Let's talk about medicine

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>>6578014
been on a million different drugs for most of my adult and teen life.

Depending on your personal brain chemistry, the drug that works best for you isn't necessarily gonna be the first one you take. Second, they can have side effects. There's a lot trial and error there. The drugs can also take a long time to even feel an effect and it can take months for the drug to take full effect. Additionally, SSRIs are a very broad push instrument. Without making many different changes in your life, such as the way you think and your dietary and exercise habits, it's never going to cure you.

SSRIs and SSNRIs are what followed up tricyclic antidepressants, which replaced MAOIs. What makes them superior is its safety and health profile, not its effectiveness. The idea is to make the drugs more and more targeted to do exactly what you want it to do in the brain. But because depression is so complex, just pushing the chemical buttons on one little part of the brain can actually make the drugs less effective, not more so.

Prozac has nothing to do with fluoride. If anyone is trying to make a connection... they're illiterate chemically. People get nervous with antidepressants because they think you're somehow changing the person, turning them into someone fake, or altering their personality. And there are many drugs I have taken that did feel kind of like that to me. But a good match to your personal neurochemistry will alter you less than a cup of coffee in the morning, except that you're not constantly ruminating uncontrollably about how much you want to kill yourself and how awful everything is.

Side effects happen because the brain is complex. A lot of how antidepressants work is (probably) actually your brain adjusting itself to being thrown off a bit chemically. That is, it's likely (imo,) that the antidepressant effects of SSRIs isn't actually in simply altering serotonin levels, but in how your brain reacts to having different serotonin levels.

>>6578048
/pol/, you drunkard skinhead.

>>6578066
huh?

>>6578014

SSRIs block a transporter than sucks up serotonin from the synapse (connection between 2 neurons), basically they make sure theres more signal in there to keep your neurons firing.

The problem is we dont understand clearly how/why keeping serotonin at high levels inside the synaptic cleft has the effect that it does on mood.

obviously it "REALLY" works because its been tested in clinical trials that have demonstrated that it fucking does otherwise the FDA wouldnt allow it to be sold.

Side effects happen because drugs arent perfect, they hit other receptors and cause other effects. it also depends on your genetics. Side effects will always occur with every drug because we arent clones of one another.

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>>6578066
>>6578077
>>6578266

>>6578014
The problem is psychiatry in general. An existential crisis is treated with the highly advertised pill of the year and a biweekly appointment with a stranger who earns a living by getting you to come back in two weeks.
>What_can_go_wrong.gif

Humans are survivors to the core. We are the apex predator of an entire planet. I'm completely understating the issue when I say that someone going through the toughest of mental times will do one of three things in the end; Suicide or teeter totter between wellness and miserable. Suicide being a rarity.
Answer these questions from the evidence you personally attained through experience.
>Did the person prescribing me these meds seem to give much of a fuck?
>Are they really trying to get to know you so they can better understand why you are having a hard time in your life right now?

Now I'll answer a few of your Q's
>How do they work
pic related. 90% of our Serotonin is found in our GI tract. Our gut. It travels up the bloodstream to the brain where it's transferred from Neuron to Neuron. It is a Neurotransmitter. Neurotransmitters are the chemicals the brain does all it's communication with. This is why it's fucking crazy as hell to do the next step. SSRI's block up Serotonin receptors so that it doesn't effectively get transferred. The draconian idea is that "Serotonin is good so if pinch the hose here, it'll build up to lots!". This isn't precise science at all being used on the most complex system in the known universe. Back to the pinched hose.
cont.

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>>6578388
cont.
Body has too much serotonin so it shuts down it's production. This is why the side effects are so severe when you quit and are being shown now to last for years. It's the same process of atrophy in hormone production of the testicles after steroid usage. This is common knowledge in the sport field that if you use it you end up damaging your ability to produce testosterone when you stop and may be stuck taking it for life. But getting some Testosterone cream is easy.
You may wonder,
>"Anon, if Serotonin is good, and that's the basis for this entire pharmacological pill boom. Then why don't they just give us Serotonin in a pill?"
Great question, Anon, this leads into the "conspiracy". Why would a scientist create a dysfunction of a neurological process instead of just adding the needed chemical to begin with?
See, if you are to continue to come back in two weeks you, anon, need to believe that you are broken irrecoverably and will not get better without the mythical 'Fix'. This is expressed with..
>You have a chemical imbalance. No blood or spinal tap tests needed. Nobody gets better without SSRI's. Depression is a life long battle. Broken things have solutions though and to get it you must take your pill so I can assure my retirement with your biweekly visits.

And This is the process of creating the demand for your supply. Just read the bullet points of the 5 steps to creating demand.
>http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/stories/2008/07/21/smallb3.html?page=all


The global pharmaceuticals market is a collection of businesses worth US$300 billion a year. If it is a business it will act like one as we can see.

If they really cared about you they'd help you get a job that doesn't suck your soul out everyday, a blowjob, a bag of weed, a bag of shrooms, and connect you with a group of people involved in a hobby your are interested in.

>>6578508
As an aside, the Psychological community is hoping nobody reads history because they are only 40 years removed from giving out lobotomies to kids. And 30 years from warehousing of patients.
So, no, I don't think they've grown a conscience.

>>6578535
>>6578508
Scientist here. I work in drug development. Your ideas are delusional and not supported by fact or probability.

I and others like me got into medical sciences to help humanity. It's a big driving force when when your still at the lab for the 20th friday night in a row at midnight and haven't had a day off in months. We don't get paid lots of money (salary range is usually around 60,000. I make less than that).

None of us working and making drugs are paid shills or what have you. We do it to help people.

Pharma companies are massive entities of many people and branches. To generalize about an entire company, let alone all company, automatically makes you disingenuous.

Pharma companies can and have done morally bad stuff. For the most part, they don't. They make drugs that can be profitable, yet. They also do charitable at-cost drug development for rare diseases that will never make a profit. I know because a rare disease I worked on had a drug produced in such a fashion.
>DEY DO IT FOR PUBLICITY
Then why is this the first time you've heard of it?

They have to make drugs profitable because this is a capitalist society, duh. If company A makes a drug and releases it for free, company A goes bankrupt and can't help anymore. Company B makes a drug and sells it, make profit, and can now make 10 new drugs. Cost of buying drugs aside, they've done 10x more for patients with disease then company A ever did.

>>6578549
>cont.

Also, anyone with rudimentary knowledge of game theory knows that the first company to create a cure wins the market. Not a treatment, a cure.

Lets look at some of this stupid shit:

"Anon, if Serotonin is good, and that's the basis for this entire pharmacological pill boom. Then why don't they just give us Serotonin in a pill?"
Great question, Anon, this leads into the "conspiracy". Why would a scientist create a dysfunction of a neurological process instead of just adding the needed chemical to begin with?


Anyone with google can see that we tried and it doesn't work. We do sell the precursor to seratonin, however.

>See, if you are to continue to come back in two weeks you, anon, need to believe that you are broken irrecoverably and will not get better without the mythical 'Fix'. This is expressed with..

Why would this not be the case if you could, theoretically, sell pure seratonin to take?

>You have a chemical imbalance. No blood or spinal tap tests needed. Nobody gets better without SSRI's. Depression is a life long battle. Broken things have solutions though and to get it you must take your pill so I can assure my retirement with your biweekly visits.

Anyone who has gone to a (good) psychiatrist knows that this is a load of horseshit. While there are fucked up, greedy psychiatrists, they are far and few between. Depression is real and to try to minimize it by saying "it's a myth created by money hungry people" is really a slap in the face of people who do suffer from depression.

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>>6578508
>But getting some Testosterone cream is easy.

Slight threadjack, but as /fit/ will confirm transdermal testosterone delivery is VERY inefficient, plus it works "best" when the gel is applied directly to your balls for some receptor expression related reason I forget, good luck explaining that away if anyone catches you doing it. It has some limited application in TRT but is useless for athletic or bodybuilding purposes. Orally via encapsulated suspension in certain oils *sort of* works but still badly, is very expensive and erratic in bioavailability - some athletes use it but only because it clears faster for dope testing purposes.

Oral steroids are almost always not testosterone itself, but some active structural derivative or prodrug that survives first-pass liver metabolism, thus they're all hepatotoxic to varying degrees. All serious bodybuilders inject steroids because they *have to* in order to get around these problems - of course it's still not exactly a healthy thing to do.

>>6578549
Would you still be a scientist working in the drug compartment if you knew the hours were so horrid?

>>6578568
I don't work for a company. I work for a university on human genetic diseases and I just happen to do drug development.

Impossibly long hours is the norm for anyone in the medical sciences or grad school. It's expected and part of the culture, which makes it doubly worse. You don't take off for christmas or summer, it's frowned upon. If you're not in on the weekends, you are being lazy. It's academia that has these long hour standards.

Believe it or not, industry is straight-up 9-5. You come in at 9, leave at 5, doesn't matter what else you have to do. Much better hours. They also have much better pay. Overall, it's a "better" work environment from those perspectives.

You lose a lot of your freedom that you have in academia, however. I can show up at 10am and leave at 4 and no one bats an eye. I can spend the entire morning complaining to my co-workers about our team not giving us enough money for stuff and its fine. It sounds counter-intuitive, but you ultimately do spend far more hours in academia doing this. What matters is how much work you get done by the next lab meeting. There is no shortage of experiments to do, but there is quite a shortage on money. In industry, you have access to all kinds of expensive shit that quadruples your efficiency.

Increasing serotonergic output in various corticolimbic regulatory regions of the HPA axis leads to increased BDNF release which increases inhibitory drive to glucocorticoid release and strengthens inhibitory control over various stressors.

Increasing extracellular serotonin inhibits REM-on neurons and thus partially impairs (unwanted) emotional memory consolidation during sleep.

Activation of serotonin 1a receptors in hippocampal progenitors encourages proliferation. The new granule cells are involved in modulating sparse coding and pattern separation of emotional memories, and lead to better ability to discriminate between safe and fearful contexts through indirect projections to nucleus accumbens and amygdala, thus increasing subjective mood.

Serotonin signaling in the orbitofrontal cortex, via time-dependent activation of serotonin 2a receptors on pyramidal neurons, regulates cytokine signalling and increases the signal to noise ratio for higher cortical reversal learning, lessening the affective bias and lowering the threshold for pruning obsessive/compulsive behaviors.


Fluoride ion is dangerous, the carbon–fluorine bond is one of the strongest bonds in organic chemistry and nothing to worry about.


Monoamines like serotonin have an inverse-U shaped curve on the efficiency of attentional networks, so too much/too little can impair them if they were at baseline to begin with.

>>6578014 Depends on the level of your depression. If it is low to medium, you should not take excessive medications because those antidepressants work well only to a highly depressed people. In that case negative sideeffects could be seen better than the effects in depression. Those antidepressants were firstly produced for psychotic and highly depressed peoples and even in those cases only 25% got relief (if I remember correctly). Anyway the real numbers geting help from antidepressants are low to mediacore (if given a wide variety of cases)

>>6578014
>Why do conspiracy theorists flip so much shit about Prozac
I don't really know so I'm just going to guess based on what I know. Prozac and other SSRI can increase the risk of suicide attempt in short term (between day 10 and 14 typically) which is why you are supposed to be a) evaluated for risk of suicide ; b) well monitored ; c) prescribed anxiolytic drugs to help you through that period.
The way it is explained in layman's term is that within that period the drug manages to alleviate the psychomotor retardation but doesn't have yet an effect on the mood and suicidal thoughts.

Prozac has the worst withdrawal symptoms of any drug, even heroin. It can take years to get off it and it is absolute hell. Why? More money for GlaxoSmithKline.

OP here, this all has helped, and was a very interesting read.
Prozac withdrawal was a strange time, and I did stop taking it cold turkey (twice now - i know, not wise).
The reason I asked about conspiracy theorists flipping out about it is that they say it's made of 95% fluoride, and fluoride is very bad and actually causes depression in the long run and does all of these other things. Now, I take what my conspiracy friends tell me with a grain of salt, as so much of what they say is hearsay and they don't give factual evidence, but I like to keep my mind open.
I stopped my meds because I didn't feel they were working, and I still got suicidal, and I was paranoid for a few reasons, and it's also a pride thing I have - feeling like I can't be independent or fully functional without my crutch (Prozac).

>>6579058
Theres no fluoride in fluoxetine(prozac). Your thinking of fluorine... which is an element...
What you need to understand is different molecules act completely different even though they may be made of same elements. Oxygen is good right? The air we breathe is around 21% O2. Add an extra oxygen atom to it you get O3 (ozone) which kills you. Our bodies contain a bunch of carbon. Put oxygen and carbon together you get CO which kills you. Table salt is 50% sodium. Look up "sodium and water" on youtube and imagine trying to eat pure sodium. There are no "bad/evil" elements, they are only building blocks.

>no "bad/evil" elements

with the possible exception of Pu

>>6579128
>Can provide millions with electricity.

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>>6579128
Not a fan of breeder reactors, eh?

>>6578014
They don't 'fix' anything, they're a crutch, and they unbalance your brain chemistry. You want to 'fix' yourself? Cognitive therapy. Change the way you think about things.

Before you start doing that, try some cardio. I'm moderately depressed and right after I go bicycling I feel like a God. The effects lasts for a couple of days with me. It also helps me with memory problems I have. I also had some subjective succes with St. John's wort.

>>6579331
I agree very much with this and would add another. Sun light. I don't feel like killing myself nearly as much when i get some sun and do a little sweating.

>>6578549
>>6578555
Straw men. Straw men arguments erryware. And you said you were a scientist.

My favorite part is
>we tried. It doesn't work.

Top kek

>>6579058
>and it's also a pride thing I have - feeling like I can't be independent or fully functional without my crutch (Prozac).
I hear many patients say that but I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. Nature isn't perfect, it gives some people infections, it gives some people diabetes and some others psychiatric problem. Now some have more pronounced pathologies than other and the indication of a drug should always be measured against its possible side effects, but there is no shame in taking a drug even in long term if it helps you live better. That's why they were developed in the first place. It goes without saying that if you're motivated for a psychotherapy along with the pharmacotherapy it is even better.

Bottom line, my advice is to do what you need to get better, and only then consider very slowly reducing the doses of whatever you're taking.

>>6579368
My guess is that he's referring to the fact that serotonin doesn't pass the blood brain barrier. DO you have any scientific evidence that supplementary serotonin helps treat mood disorders ?

I have been on several antidepressants and none of them did ANYTHING to me.

That means some made me sleep all day, others killed my libido completely, some increased my appetite and made me gain weight, but none of them had any effect on my mood, anxiety or motivation.

I gave up on taking them, but psychotherapy isnt the holy grail either,

>>6579368
>what is the blood brain barrier

>>6578508
If you spent half as much time studying pharmacokinetics as you do ranting about "big pharma" you might have a bit of credibility. This is /sci/ not facebook.

suck my dick faggot this thread is not about medicine at all but is hurr durr I am depressed let's all circle jerk each other about the drugs we take and our feelings.
You would be laughed at in any serious medical environment.

Never Ever Ever take pharmaceutical drugs unless they have a direct positive benefit and no side-effects (such as antibiotics when you have an infection). Changing who you are and how you think and losing your whole sense of self is not worth whatever small benefit you might get from some psychotropic drug. Prescription pill abuse is a big problem in America, and if you regularly take these things for diseases that only were invented in the last 50 years then I'm sorry, you have been brainwashed by doctors just to make more money. Newsflash, you're also a junkie, no matter how accepted it is. Most mental disorders can be changed by positive thinking and some small degree of ownership and responsibility for your thoughts and actions. You don't need to chemically lobotomize yourself to make yourself feel better. Fuck.

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have no fear, anon, for someone with depressions who is on daily prozac is here!
It works well. I hardly notice it making me feel different, but it allows me to be happier and interact socially. However, as a stimulant, it messes with my ADD (meaning I have to counterbalance it with fucking Ritalin)
pic related, its you on prozac.

I'm on a shit ton of anti-depressants and I hate it. But I hate being in the hospital more. I was sent to a psych ward three times last year, one time for almost a month. I don't want to do that again.

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>>6579702

>>6579702
>Depression and suicide were invented in the last 50 years
Uh.. ok...

>You would be laughed at in any serious medical environment.
Kid, we're laughing at you now. Serotonin in blood stream /= serotonin in brain. The BBB is literally one of the first things you learn in medicine.

>Never Ever Ever take pharmaceutical drugs unless they have a direct positive benefit and no side-effects
lol

>Changing who you are and how you think and losing your whole sense of self is not worth whatever small benefit you might get from some psychotropic drug
Yep. Dead patients are better than living ones any day of the week.

>Newsflash, you're also a junkie
They use a pill to get through the day and to remain functional members of society. I hope they remain dedicated junkies.

>Most mental disorders can be changed by positive thinking and some small degree of ownership and responsibility for your thoughts and actions
I will agree with you on this one. Not treating the few that cant is not a solution.

>>6578658
I quit it cold turkey and had no withdrawal at all. I know others have problems but they could phase it out with minimal problems. Hardly the worst withdrawal of any drug.

>>6578555
>Also, anyone with rudimentary knowledge of game theory knows that the first company to create a cure wins the market. Not a treatment, a cure.

If I design a tire that lasts a lifetime, I would be limiting my sales to only 4 tires per person in the world. So instead of making a cure, I make shitty tires that wear out every few months and i sell 4 of them to everybody again and again and again and again and again $

If i make a vacuum cleaner out of cheap plastic, it will break in a few months and you'll come back and buy another one.

If i sell pills, and you keep taking them forever because they make you think you need them, then I make tons of money from your stupidity.
why on earth would i want to cure you of that?

>>6580100
There are currently millions of people who are having some sort of depression and thousands that get depressed every year.
If a company found a cure for depression they could sell it to all of them for a high price and they would buy it, instead of investing billions into researching stuff that has to compete with dozends of other drugs and that only few people will buy for a lower price.

Planned obsolecence is a thing, but what you are suggesting is idiotic.

>>6578555
>While there are fucked up, greedy psychiatrists, they are far and few between.
You've got to admit that it's pretty fucking implausible that one in five people actually has a mental disorder that needs to be controlled with psychiatric drugs.

Someone is signing all of those prescriptions. The fucked up, greedy psychiatrists seem to be in the majority.

you: Hey Doc, I drink tons of Mt.Dew and I fell like shit all the time.
your doctor: Here, these pills will let you keep poisoning yourself with Mt.Dew but you won't care anymore.
you: thanks doc, i love Mt.Dew
your doctor: come back when you run out of pills.
you: duh, ok

>>6580121
>Planned obsolecence is a thing, but what you are suggesting is idiotic.
There are truck tires that were made in the 1950s still operating on the road today.
There are vacuum cleaners made in the 1950s that are still vacuuming today.

there are cures made in the 1950s that would work today, if you could buy them, but most are illegal

>>6580138
>there are cures made in the 1950s that would work today, if you could buy them, but most are illegal

Like what?

>>6580126
>Someone is signing all of those prescriptions. The fucked up, greedy psychiatrists seem to be in the majority.

Can't make money off people by telling them to drink more water, eat healthier, exercise, and get some sunlight. those things are free.
but if you con-vince them that they need pills, you can make a fortune.

hey doc, i eat a lot of greasy indigestible foods, and i get frequent heartburn. hell, my diet is so unbalanced, i'm lucky to be alive.

here, take these pills, and eat whatever you want. I'll schedule you for surgery 5 years from now. keep taking your pills.

>>6578658
i'd argue that alcohol and Benzo's actually have the worst withdrawal symptons, given that if not properly managed they can kill you

hey doc, I had 5 cups of coffee this morning, and it feels like my heart is going to burst out of my chest.
oy vey your blood pressure is through the roof.
take these pills every day for the rest of your life. if you stop taking them, withdrawal will kill you.

>>6578014
>How exactly did they come across this medicine?

back when mentally ill were simply confined, they realized certain chemicals make them more docile.

it wasnt for their happiness, it was to make them easier to control


>Why do conspiracy theorists flip so much shit about Prozac, and fluoride in general? I hear so much about it these days.

because the transition from putting mentally ill in jail for life, to today, didnt involve a lot of change.

thats what made me not want to major in psychology after dreaming of being a psychologist since child.

hey doc, my headaches are gone since i started taking those pills you gave me, but i've been getting these painful red sores all over my genitals, and there's a lot of blood in my poop.
That's good that we cured your headaches.
Here are some more pills to fix your other problems.

>>6580238
except the side effects aren't usually that bad.

The worst I got (and I've been on a lot of different drugs) were:
dehydration -> headaches, hard poo and having to drink all the fluids
couldn't get drunk
felt like I had to pee but couldn't
withdrawal effects that included really bad dizziness

All from the strongest anti-depressant I had been on so far (effexor). I didn't like the side effects so I stopped taking it.
I'm still on 3 different antidepressants (5 depending on how you count), no side effects.

>>6580273
have any of your doctors suggested anything besides pills?

>>6580236
>thats what made me not want to major in psychology after dreaming of being a psychologist since child
so what did you do instead ?

>>6580175
>Can't make money off people by telling them to drink more water, eat healthier, exercise, and get some sunlight. those things are free.
>but if you con-vince them that they need pills, you can make a fortune.
that actually made me laugh. Some people here already have a very strong opinion about doctors and pharamaceuticals so I'm not even going to try to debate on that but this I had to point out. Do you have any idea how much money is spent on encouraging healthy lifestyle in Europe ? Most people simply aren't willing to change for whatever their reasons may be.

From a medical perspective there are two options :
- A) you withhold treatment for people who aren't "living healthy" as is our current standard. Some people may change but what's going to happen mostly is a huge spike in mortality from cardiovascular disease and stroke mostly.
- B) you give dietetary advices, and when those advice aren't enough, you give appropriate treatment. The treatment isn't here to cure those patients, it is to lower the morbi-mortality associated with objective measures : hypertension, high LDL-cholesterol, smoking, etc. that may be partially or completely linked to their lifestyles.

You're free to chose option A) for yourself if that's what you prefer but for what reason would you keep others to go with B) ? It isn't your decision to make what they do with their money or whether they prefer drugs to lifestyle modifications.

>>6580399
>Do you have any idea how much money is spent on encouraging healthy lifestyle in Europe ?

I applaud the EU for encouraging healthier lifestyles, to the extent that they do. Even more so for requiring that alternative treatment be attempted, before performing some surgeries. Both are common sense, and would be unheard of in America.

I can't blame citizens for being upset about taxation without representation. "I'm not obese, so why should I be taxed to pay for medical issues arising from obesity?'

Luxury tax the obese, lazy, alcoholic, smokers, etc. to pay for their healthcare resulting from their lifestyles.

>>6580311
yes.
I don't know of any doctor that doesn't.
(I've switched a couple times).

I just thought it was implied.
I go to group therapy and meet with a therapist for one on one both weekly.

>>6580100
Your knowledge of economics is astounding.
I bet thats why they haven't cured cancer or aids too. Curse you big pharma!

>>6580127
Go to a doctor and say that, I dare you. Diet exercise and sun are the first things out of their mouths (If you dont live in shit tier US). Contrary to your rabid beliefs, doctors DONT hand shit out like candy. They follow guidelines to hand out sleep/depression meds only when the patient has tried all other options without success or they are at risk for suicide

>>6580145
Yeah, acid for schizophrenia and speed for everything else worked out great... Lets keep doing that...

>>6580127
>>6580192
>>6580211
>>6580238
>>6580236
>>6580238
>>6580311
You have such a deep and vast understanding of the medical system, and are capable of insightful and well structured arguments! Now can you go away stop shitting up this thread? Adults are trying to talk.

>>6580198
benzos are easily the fucking worst thing in medicine

So I was on SSRIs as a young teenager, and now my dick doesn't work.

My doctor never really told me of that possibility, and when the issue of short term sexual dysfunction came up he just said "but that's not important."

And the scary thing is, this isn't an uncommon thing. Happens to a lot of people.

Thanks American healthcare system.
I'm so glad I could trade the use of my dick forever just to help solve my mild anxiety as a preteen. (And it never really helped with that either)

>>6580538
I thought I told you to go away.
Your libido comes back almost immediately after you go off them. Now seriously stop shitposting.

Caffeine is listed as the most addictive substance on Earth. Without even getting into how it's use, promotes cancer, or the fact that causes a number of conditions that can easily be misdiagnosed as mental illnesses. Strictly focusing on it's addictive properties, and evidence from caffeine use, and withdrawal that demon-strate it's devastating effects on blood circulation in the brain, neural development, brain damage, etc. should be enough to get it classified as a drug and regulated, but more importantly people should be better educated about the dangers of it's use, rather than just saying it's natural.

>>6580557
This is the first time I've been in this thread, I don't know what you're talking about.

In most cases, your sexual function comes back as soon as you get off.

It doesn't always.

http://psychrights.org/Research/Digest/AntiDepressants/PersistentSexualDysfunctionOffSSRIsCsokaetal%282007%29.pdf

>>6580538
>my dick doesn't work.
there's a pill for that

few people report to their doctor "I fuck like a champ since I started taking these here SSRIs"
why would they complain? The bad news is that this is a side effect occurring in some people relatively few, and it results in erectile dysfunction. Had you reported the symptom to your doctor, he could have taken you off of it.
inde dtd

>>6580584
I had no way of knowing at the time that it could have lasting side effects even after I got off it.

I was 13 or 14 years old, so it wasn't my decision to make anyway.

He straight up told me that I shouldn't care about the sexual side effects, so I really had no recourse.

And it's always great being a 20 year-old on Cialis. Hasn't interfered with any of my relationships whatsoever.

>>6580571
1) You have 4 reported cases.

2) Nice bias, is this your website or something?

>The Law Project for Psychiatric Rights (PsychRights) is a non-profit, tax exempt 501(c)(3) public interest law firm whose mission is to mount a strategic legal campaign against forced psychiatric drugging and electroshock in the United States akin to what Thurgood Marshall and the NAACP mounted in the 40's and 50's on behalf of African American civil rights. The public mental health system is creating a huge class of chronic mental patients through forcing them to take ineffective, yet extremely harmful drugs.

3) You think people want to fuck when they are depressed? I think suicide is a greater risk than ED. We have solutions for ED. We dont have solutions for dead people.

>>6580600
I just grabbed the first one off google. Obviously it's not a rigorous study, but it's an indication that this sort of thing does happen.

There's a lot of stigma that comes with ED, so it's not the sort of thing people just blurt out to everyone.
If this wasn't an anonymous imageboard, I doubt I'd even say anything.


Also, I haven't been depressed since I was an edgy 13 year old. Life is pretty great.

I've had many opportunities to fuck people. I just haven't been able to follow through with because my dick is physically incapable of getting hard.

It's ended basically every relationship I've been in sooner or later.
At this point I don't even date because there isn't really much point.

>>6580538
It sucks for you, unfortunately there are side effects for all drugs, some of them very serious but unpredictable. Information about side effects should be given but to be honest I had never heard of this permanent sexual dysfunction syndrome, and it is not listed in the notice for SSRI's. But it's irrelevant because there are many rare and very rare side effects that a doctor simply won't list because the overall benefit to risk ratio is favorable and justify the prescription of the drug. Hopefully with time we get safer drugs and new ways to predict and treat those side effects.

One thing I don't understand though, what do you mean with "my dick doesn't work" ? On the article posted, the three cases described mention that the "biological" sexual function (erection and ejaculation) has been restored after withdrawal, the permanent side-effect being mostly a "psychological" sexual dysfunction with lack of pleasure and genital anesthesia.

>>6580616
I can't maintain an erection for longer than a minute is what I mean.

That in and of itself is probably caused by psychological dysfunction, because I can still ejaculate while fapping. I probably shouldn't have said "physically" because I still can for brief periods.

Again, I have no REAL way of knowing it was caused by the SSRIs, but the evidence is compelling enough for me to strongly believe that's the case.

I first noticed it about a week into taking them, and it hasn't really gone away since. A lot of other people have casually reported the same thing. Considering I don't know what else could have caused it, it's a safe bet that the SSRIs did.

I just wish someone would have told me this COULD happen.
Even if it's an extremely rare occurrence, shouldn't doctors inform patients about it?

Even if there's only a miniscule hint that something even could go wrong, I feel like it's the drug companies responsibility to let patients know.

>>6580600
>We dont have solutions for dead people.
suicide means an automatic autopsy, and often provides a cadaver for med students to practice on. plus, if they were an organ donor, and we catch them in time, we can harvest and perhaps save lives. everyone dies, it doesn't always have to be a bad thing.

>>6580639
Ok anon,
Ill let you convince the families of the victims why you withheld a life saving drug.
>Mrs Anon, I withheld medication because I thought your son/daughter just needed some positive thinking. Look at the bright side! We get a cadaver, and some much needed organs.
Wait what? You want to bury him/her!?!

>>6580609
this is so weird meeting my polar opposite
my cock is hard 12/24ths of the day, and ended plenty of relationships before i met the right girls, yes plural. One works the day shaft, and the other at night, so there's little conflict. We're all happy, and never use any drugs.
If you can't take responsibility for your actions, then blame your parents who were responsible for you at the time.

Why are neurosurgeons so cool?

>>6580658
because they actually fix problems in the brain, rather than causing them like shrinks do.

>>6580635
>Even if it's an extremely rare occurrence, shouldn't doctors inform
patients about it?
>Even if there's only a miniscule hint that something even could go wrong, I feel like it's the drug companies responsibility to let patients know.
Pharmaceuticals company have to, it's in the drug's notice. For doctors, it's a different problem. When you see a patient, there's only a few messages that you can give him. Ideally, a doctor could transfer his entire medical knowledge to the patient who would then make a decision. In practice, a doctor has to chose of all his knowledge, what information is the most relevant for the patient to make his decision. Ethically, this information should contain frequent and serious (known) side effects. Medically, however, his message must be that the drug should be taken, because there were studies that determined way above his head that the benefit to risk ratio was favorable (e.g. that you would significantly help 10 000 patients for 1 serious side effect). Obviously, it is still the patient's right to decide whether the risk is acceptable to him, but I feel a doctor has failed his mission if he spent too much time elaborating on every possible side effects.

Long story short, every drugs has side effects. You should be warned about frequent and serious side effects but even then there are unknown and very rare side effects that might hit you when you take a drug, which is why you should only take them when there is a good indication. In your particular case, today's medical teaching is that we should try to withhold psychotropics (and most drugs actually) in young patients because the side effects aren't as well known as for adults and the benefit isn't as clearly established.

>I can still ejaculate while fapping
If you don't mind me asking, can you last over a minute while masturbating ?

Sorry for the late answer my internet connection is screwing up.

>>6580684
I fap while flaccid for the most part. Sometimes my dick will get semi hard, but it's rarely a full erection for long. Lot easier to do that than it is to actually stick it in something, so it's still possible to come like that.


The problem for me is that pharmaceutical companies adamantly deny the possibility of persistent sexual dysfunction.
It's bad for business, I get that, but it doesn't really seem ethical.

Of course, they can get away without actively admitting there's a possibility because there's been no rigorous studies confirming it.
Even if it isn't an officially confirmed risk, though, I still feel like that sort of information should be in the little pamphlets they give you at the very least. All the other side effects are there, but that one's strangely absent.

If nothing else, it's enough of a concern that it should be included in the potential side effects, or at least have some sort of real study confirming or denying it.

Better safe than sorry when it comes to psychotropic drugs. Even a risk that may not be real deserves a mention until somebody proves it isn't.

Sorry for the even later response. 4chan died for a minute there.

>>6580680
You really think that rate of failure is lower for brain surgery than for talking to a therapist?

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>>6578014

Fuck no.

Get off that shit IMMEDIATELY.

I was mis-diagnosed with schizophrenia and was put on Risperdal and some other bullshit along with Prozac. It fucked me up big time (turned me into a fucking zombie). I'd wake up every day with zero energy or ambition. My sex drive was completely diminished and I could barely even think or speak. All I'd do every day was lay in bed and watch TV. I gained 20 lb as a result. I couldn't do much else, I could barely even drive my car. I will NEVER take any of those fucking medications ever again. Pic related. Into the fucking trash they go.

I've been off the shit for months now and I'm back to smoking weed everyday. I feel INFINITELY better. Energy, sex drive, ambition, thinking, and speaking skills are back to normal. I don't think I've made a full recovery just yet though, I'm not quite where I want to be, but I'm getting there.

Get off all those bullshit meds and smoke some weed. Wait a few months to get the shit out of your system before you start smoking though. DO NOT smoke while on meds. I learned this the hard way.

I believe the weed reversed the damaging effects of the meds. It really is medicine, just use it responsibly.

>>6580733
How can you be misdiagnosed with schizophrenia unless your shrink is a retard?

What are/were your symptoms?

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>"Doctor I feel like life is inherently meaningless and I'm lost in a society that has lost its transcendental signifier. There is no ground for me to stand on and I feel like my social relationships have devolved to hollow, alienated pre-planned exercises. I don't feel right suffering or longing because society says that I should be happy all the time."
>"There's probably something inherently wrong with your brain and not at all wrong with society. No, don't look to poetry or art or anything profound like that that human beings have created and turned to for thousands of years and don't even think about trying to live a more authentic life in a more authentic community. Just take these pills once a day for the rest of your life and things will get a little better. You see, nothing is wrong but the balance of chemicals in your brain."

>>6580751

Psych misdiagnosis happens all the time

>>6580781
that's not real depression.

>>6580785
It's pretty hard to misdiagnose any psychotic disorder.

>>6580781
>Thinks this will get him a prescription.

>>6580751
I had somewhat of an epiphany last year which involved me allegedly harassing this chick I knew via text messages. She called the cops. I was arrested in the middle of the night by a SWAT team (because apparently a picture I posted with me with my rifle on FB rustled some jimmies). I had a traumatic experience in jail (was in county for about a week. didn't know I was at a county jail, thought I was at some prison camp since all the guards were dressed in military type uniforms). I got into some fights with the guards cause they were pissing me off, got pepper-sprayed at least twice/beaten by several of the fuckers at once was told I would be killed, etc. I cried many times and talked to myself (who doesn't?) and I heard very interesting responses from other inmates and guards in my vicinity which led me to believe someone was reading my thoughts (it's was a little more complicated than that, but w/e). when I was released I went on a little mission to get some money and whatnot which I thought some people owed me. I tried breaking into their house which led to me getting arrested again. When I was released from jail (this time it was local PD, was in for about a day or so) I was sent straight to a mental hospital where I was put on the meds. I was at the hospital for about a week. A few weeks after I was release I fully understood what had happened which led to a decrease of my PTSD.

tl;dr: I was't schizo, I just believed some things that weren't necessarily true. I was paranoid, but because of what I had just experienced.

What's funny is how some of the doctors were like: "Wow you're doing much better now, those medications must have done wonders for you!" It wasn't the meds, you fuckwits, all it took was some time to realize some things.

>>6580807
>"Doctor I feel 'sad' and 'empty' a lot and don't really want to hang out with my friends anymore and don't really see the 'point' in doing things I used to do. I just feel like I don't have the energy to keep doing things people expect me to do."
>"Sounds like textbook depression! Let's get you on some prozac."

People aren't given the ability to think about what "sad" and "empty" and "no point" means because they are just immediately relayed to patients as symptoms of a mental disorder.

>>6580820
That's not real depression.

>>6580733
This.

Just smoke some weed OP (or at least try it someday), you'll feel much better.

>>6580822
>lack of energy
>no enjoyment in things that were once enjoyed
>shutting away from friends and other social connections
>feeling "sad" or "empty" a significant amount of time

"That's not REAL depression."

>>6580820
Anyone with an MD knows the order. Diet, excercise, sunlight, sleep meds, SSRIs.
Lie about any of the above and your not really helping the good doctor do his job are you?

Also, out of curiosity, do you really think the doctor gets money for the meds he prescribes? You actually think he wants to deal with more people in a day?

>>6580781
>this so much

>>6580838
Not the guy you've been talking to but I think theres a bit more to depression, like disturbed sleep, psychomotoric retardation, lack of libido, obsessive thoughts, weight loss etc that differentiate it from having a shitty time.

Just imagine you wake up tomorrow and you suddenly had all the symptoms you described, without a warning or a change in your life. Would you still believe its just a problem with society? How so? Society didnt change over night.

Also whats with bipolar disorder? Also just a reaction to society?

>>6581021
Not the guy you've been talking to but how would you call "having a shitty time" forever?

>>6581023
Not sure what you mean. Lets just say the difference between having a shitty time and depression is that you can stop having a shitty time by changing the circumstances of your life instantly. For example if you are a poor virgin loser, and you win the lottery and find a supermodel girlfriend at the same day, you would stop having a shitty time. If you are suffering from depression, that wouldn't mean shit to you.

>>6581054
I am actually starting to think that it would be better if doctors would use numbered codes instead of names.

>>6581066
wat?

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>>6581023

>>6580688
>The problem for me is that pharmaceutical companies adamantly deny the possibility of persistent sexual dysfunction.
>It's bad for business, I get that, but it doesn't really seem ethical.
I don't know how it is in the US but in Europe, it doesn't depend on them. It is the healthcare professional's duty to report on such side-effects to specific "pharmacovigilance" centers, who may then force the company to adapt the drug's notice.

Obviously, there are sometimes stories of certain side effects that were detected during the drug's evaluation but were concealed. That type of behavior is unjustifiable.

As for yourself, I would advice you to get checked up for other possible causes of erectile dysfunction, even if unlikely. Also, pertaining to treatment, there are alternatives to phosphodiesterase-5 inhibitors if they don't suit you, although generally P5I are generally the most preferred treatment by patients. Counseling can also help, see sex "specialists" (called sexologues in my country, they're subspecialized psychologists or general practitioners ; make sure they have some form of certification as it is not a protected title). I just think it would be a waste to give up on your entire sexual life at age 20.

>>6580809
Psychiatric-Medschool-fag here.

This might not have been as much of a misdiagnosis as you think.

When I was young, I was diagnosed with something called schizophreniform.
That's part of the reason I want to help adolescents from a psychiatric angle nowadays.

Basically, picture schizophrenia like a bucket full of different colored marbles. Blue marbles represent schizophrenia, and white marbles represent not-schizophrenia.

If you draw a blue marble out of the bucket, you'll develop symptoms of schizophrenia, and if you draw a white one you won't.

Most of our "buckets" have at least a few blue marbles in them. Some have more than others. This is a genetic predisposition you have no control over.

In times of severe stress such as puberty, people with more of these "blue marbles" are more likely to express their underlying psychosis.

About half of people with schizophreniform make a complete recovery and never get diagnosed with full on schizophrenia.

>>6581184
Thanks anon.

I've also heard PDE5 inhibitors work well for post-SSRI sexual dysfunction. I've just been too embarrassed about it to really say anything to my doctor.

Next time I'm sick with pneumonia, I'm going to ask just for you.

>incoming ancedotal evidence

I've had depression symptoms that mostly included fatigue, troube seeping, and lack of motivation to do things that make me happy. A couple of episodes of thoughts of suicide, but never acted on them. Took me three tries to get on the correct medicine, which made quite a difference. I didn't respond well to either Prozac or Effexor. Finally got put on Wellbutrin and now sleep better and overall better motivated. Also helped me lose 40 pounds over the last year since I can actually keep my self motivated on this medication. Took me 5 years to get on it.

The problem is that people expect a pill to be a cure all for all their problems. The most effective treatment is medication AND therapy. But when a pill doesn't solve all their problems eople just go around blaming it as a conspiracy. Heart disease isn't just cured by medication, it also requires you work towards being healthier. Some people need medication to get out of depression, some don't. Everyone is different.

OP here. This thread has been a very interesting read. I hope it stays up a while
>>6580733
>>6580830
Can't smoke weed. Have schizo-type episodes, anxiety attacks have gone for up to 8 hours. Bad stuff for me.
I used to be able to get RIPPED off my ass, but I guess I've reached my capacity of tokes.

>>6578014
anybody got tips on how to not be incredibly sleepy all the time whilst on the meds?

>>6582426
modafinil

>>6581196
I got psychosis for a while and it's gotten me interested in psychiatry.

Should I follow the psychiatry route? I'm really unsure of what to do with my life.

>>6582432
have you used this yourself?

>>6581066
They do.
It's hard to get it from them though.
for example for depression they quantify duration of episodes and intensity and include it with the diagnosis.

>>6582426
Get off the meds.

>>6582485
It's actually my girlfriend not me.
I never believed depression to be a real thing that requires medication until I got to know her.

She's been through some really terrible things and has tried for years all other options. She's worked her way through some dodgy doctors and anti depressants that have had terrible side effects.
She's found a really good doctor now and is slowly building up her dose for prozac and so far the only down side is its making her sleepy all the time (not a zombie though like a different one she had).

I have been through depressed and have witnessed plenty of others too and not once has the solution been pills. I just believed it to be a natural state that needed you to work through it. However after getting close to my gf I can see that there are some people out there that truly do need help from medication.

>>6582532
I was on prozac and was given adderall so I'd stay awake during class.
I don't remember it working well and I definitely remembered completely losing my appetite.

Now I have the opposite problem.
Can't fall asleep.

>>6579423

>there is no shame in taking a drug even in long term if it helps you live better

I agree. But so many do not.

It's really astounding when you talk to people. I like to think most people are somewhat sensible and even likable. I know some jaded fucks here would chuckle at that, and I'm beginning to look that way myself. It's just that psychological issues are not visible, which funnily enough makes people think they're not real. If there was a little lump in your brain, it would be fine. But there isn't. There isn't anything you could take a picture of and say ''look, that's what's wrong with me''. Coupled with the fact that everyone gets sad but most don't get depressed, it brings about a dismissive attitude where it's just assumed that since others got over their problems with some positive thinking and going outside, you can too. If you can't, you're not a real man and just need to grow some balls and whatnot.

There seem to be so many people that don't even consider depression a real thing, but an excuse for the weak-minded. As much of a hypocrite as this may make me, they're not always wrong.It's especially prominent in my country because here you can get out of a bunch of obligations by simply saying you're depressed. Making things worse are doctors who seem to diagnose literally everyone who's feeling down with depression and give them SSRIs. I was given the damn things, I wasn't even depressed, there was no reason to think I would have suffered from anything worse than mild depression and I'm still given some shit with a million side-effects that only has a statistically significant effect on people with moderate to severe depression. And no talk of any meetings with a psychotherapist or similar, no follow-up visits scheduled, nothing. Just take the pills and fuck off. I probably don't need to say what this all does to peoples' general image of depression sufferers, or the actual sufferers who are given a cold shoulder everywhere.

>>6582555

This became a bit of a rant. No matter.

In any case, I was given a year's supply of those pills. Based on literally 30 minutes total of talking to a doctor over two visits. There were no suggestions of therapy or lifestyle changes or anything, even though anyone sensible would recommend those before medication, especially in mild cases like mine. And what struck me most was that there was no follow-up. It's like the guy literally threw pills at me to get me out of his office as fast as possible. I hear these stories everywhere. If you actually have depression, you better not out yourself because anyone saying that is deemed a lazy fuck who can't get their act straight and anyone on pills affecting brain function will be deemed crazy and unreliable. Absolutely the wrong images to give to someone with depression.

i want become doctor

Several anons have mentioned that there is a growing attitude against pill poppers, and doctors who hand them out to patients.

I have volunteered at several "med clinics" and can attest to the fact that this problem is huge, and indeed growing. These facilities see hundreds of patients a day. Making a diagnosis, and handing out pills to their patients as if it were a chow line at boot camp.
These government funded free or low cost psychiatric facilities, have patients lined up at the doors before they open, and some look like they camp in the bushes there.
When the doors open, the herd charges in to get their fix. "Can't afford alcohol, and pills is free" you hear some of them say.
You could tell that the majority were only there trying to escape reality.

The "doctors" there, and I use that term loosely, look as though they are just as bad off as their patients. It wouldn't surprise me to find that they were working there because they had lost their license to practice otherwise, or could no longer obtain insurance.

Signs everywhere remind the junkies to vote for Obama, the pill provider.

Most of you probably don't care about this segment of the population any more than I do, but for the costs to the hard working taxpayer.
There has to be a better way.

>>6584196

>Most of you probably don't care about this segment of the population any more than I do, but for the costs to the hard working taxpayer.

If that's your attitude, then the fix is to stop giving away free medication to those people. Then these pill flingers will have to do something else and the users will have to deal with it. And no tax money is spent.

Your attitude is very dismissive and uncaring. Possibly it is also shortsighted. I'm not referring to you pointing out the problems with excessive medical prescriptions, as those are a real thing, but rather how you care more for tax money than welfare.

>>6584230
This has absolutely nothing to do with welfare. It is evil, and it is unfair, to everyone.
My attitude is what it is, and does not change the facts. If i harbored ill will towards these poor people, I would not be voicing my dissent and would be happy about this extermination program. Shortsighted? Perhaps it is you who did not see the forest for the trees. As for not caring, mind you I did say that I was volunteering. Of the thousand that I interviewed, there were 2 that clearly posed a danger to society, and needed far more than these programs could offer. The majority posed a danger to themselves, because of the availability of there drugs.

anecdotal evidence here

I had come down with fever after having sex. I didn't use protection since she had her tubes tied and was disease free. she had allergies though. a few weeks after i was dehydrated and came down with gastroenteritis. during that time I came down with anxiety, fearing an std and uprooting an old panic attack with death. the doctor gave me medication for the stomach and lorazapam for my anxiety. if i recall, lorazapam, a benzo, is for short term anxiety. my stomach got better, with some slight troubles here and there due to a little anxiety and my anxiety lessened. after the benzo was gone, and wave of sharp anxiety came over me after starting exercise from cardio. it made me question the amount of activity, diet and living situation i was in. i did little activity after moving to the area for a job and my diet deteriorated from lack of willpower from living in a small 1 room apartment with a lazy sister and a controlling father. I had begun whipping my eating back to healthier foods and to get back into exercising and lifting weights, which were back at my old home, running to bring some life back into me. About a month or so after the anxiety spell, my anxiety lessened from exercise. Then I had all my wisdom teeth taken out. I was advised not to exercise for a week. So i did basically nothing for a week. around that time one night I had a panic attack. it was pretty severe and left my stomach and chest in huge knots.

cont.

>>6585236
Recently I came back home where my mother still lives. I hope to see a psychiatrist. However, since returning home, I've started running again and will soon start lifting. My anxiety has diminished and I hope it stays that way this time. I'm still wary another panic attack will happen. I'm glad for the scenery change and being able to focus on myself and my health.

>>6584196
>You could tell that the majority were only there trying to escape reality.

Antidepressants dont get you high.

>>6578535
>giving out lobotomies

you've got to admit it was pretty cool
that if your wife forgot her place
you could take her in and get a "tune-up"
lobotomies aren't as bad as some people make it sound

>>6578388
are you fucking retarded? ssri's are reuptake inhibitors. they don't block transfer of serotonin on the postsynpatic cleft, they increase it. they block the reabsorption of serotonin into the presynsptic neuron thus increasing actual neurotransmission. fucking conspiracy pseudo scientists..

>>6586036
>they block the reabsorption of serotonin into the presynsptic neuron thus increasing actual neurotransmission.
in theory, and perhaps in a few patients it works that way, but once the neurons have been destroyed it moves on to other targets.