>>26509038 I used to be completely against abortion, thought it was the most evil thing in the world to deprive something so close to life a chance. Now I believe the most amount of good I could have done for the world was to become an abortion doc. I dunno. I suppose being a kid is worth this hell of a life?
>>26509119 >you can't really force someone to have a baby Why the fuck not? Things were all well and good when the woman was being a cum-guzzling whore every night. Now that it's time to grow up, take responsibility for her actions, and spend time taking care of her kid instead of spending it with her legs spread, suddenly it's time to throw a whiny fit about being forced to have kids? Suddenly it's time to play the victim as though she wasn't begging for a cock up her cunt just a few weeks ago? Nah, they don't get off that easy. At least own up to it and admit that abortion is wrong and that you made a mistake. Don't fucking absolve yourself of blame and responsibility and keep doing the same retarded shit that led to this situation. Stupid whores.
>>26509341 who the fuck do you think ever wanted to have an abortion? they happen because of poor planning or accidents. and no child deserves to be born into such a situation. abortion is a mercy to everyone involved
>>26509498 >Baby gets born >Infertile couple gets to have a child of their own >Baby grows up to live a fulfilling life, even sending her biological mother postcards from time to time >not a better outcome for everyone involved
So what? It literally is a clump of cells. A tumor has human cells, is dependet on it's host and not conscious and a potential drawback for its host. A tumor has essentially the same value as a fetus if the mother doesn't want to give birth. It's like killing flies or tomatoes. Sure, you're killing something innocent and living. But if you act upon logic instead of some dumb morals to comfort yourself, your opinion is not to be taken serious.
should men be able to 'abort' their paternal rights/obligations before a certain point in a pregnancy? like basically just say i want nothing to do with this baby it's all on you if you want to keep it or not. women can do it. why not men?
>>26509095 I was born at 26 weeks and I survived. But you're right, three weeks before that it's totally not a person and you're totally not a terrible human being for killing it. You're totally not a selfish asshole for taking a life just because it's less work than raising it. Nope, you're a just, moral purveyor of all that is right in the world! You go, girl! Gurrrrrrrrrl power!
The real question is, even if it isn't, why should you care? Why should I care? From an objective standpoint? I once asked this question to a woman who was passing out fliers about abortion at my university as she and her group stood around several 30 foot tall billboards featuring bloody aborted fetuses, and she just gave me this look like I had drowned a sack of kittens. Literally what is the downside of abortion?
>>26509881 Keep defending feminist practices for women to duck all responsibility and semblance of guilt. See how much pussy it gets you, oh savior of fair maidens.
Fact of the matter is this: a million kids are killed every year because their parents are lazy, degenerate retards who don't want the responsibility of taking care of the kid that resulted as a direct result of their actions. Through a series of complicated mental gymnastics they are able to convince themselves that they did nothing wrong and that, no, the bad people are actually the ones opposing their actions! Yeah!
>>26510006 And? Are you going to cry about starving Africans or dead Syrians as well, or are you going to be an internet slacktivist and complain about abortion. Death is everywhere kiddo, get used to it.
Yeah, you're right OP. We should definitely force people who can't take even take care of themselves (even too dumb to use anti-conception) to have babies. I'm sure those kids will develop into great individuals. And even if they didn't, what's the problem? After all God has provided as with earth filled with unlimited space and resources.
>>26509783 > 26 weeks. Is that why you're literally retarded?
>>26509607 but I should be able to fuck as many chads and tyrones as I want you cis pig bigot. My Body! My Choice! A pregnancy would totally hinder on my potential to be the next president or cure cancer.
>>26510006 Yeah, feminism is shit. But that doesn't make having a baby, overpopulation, or blacks not-shit either. Even if the only reason people get them is muuuuuh stronk wymenz, I doubt you can find anything actually wrong with it.
>>26509676 Except it is, because this exact scenario happened between my mother and sister. Now I'm and uncle, she's a grandmother, and the world is a slightly better place because my mother decided to carry her pregnancy to the end despite 16. It was worth it >>26509714 People always want to adopt babies, orphans are another story. Besides, you can have a good life as a ward of the state
>>26509038 I don't see what's wrong with it Tell me how it's a reasonable thing to expect a poor kid in an unhealthy environment to grow up to be successful. Especially if they live in a shitty country and are a shitskin >M-muh anecdotal evidence
>>26509038 I don't care about the moral implications of abortions. I just don't want a bunch of children born into broken homes, or the product of rape, or being born when the parents aren't ready. It's better for everyone.
You can cry slippery slope all you want, but it's only a matter of time until post-natal abortion becomes a thing. Killing the baby in the delivery room is okay because "it can't survive on its own anyway lmao." Then, thirty years down the line, it'll be okay to beat your ten-year old to death behind the woodshed because "well, gee, you know, he was getting bad grades and wasn't going to grow up to be a good person lmao it's better this way."
>>26510313 Not people, just you. Little edgy faggot. >Death is everywhere kiddo, get used to it. I'm still fucking cracking up over this. You legitimately thought this was cool and tough-sounding. Holy fucking shit, loving every laugh.
>>26510371 >>26510393 I remember when I was 18 and cared about shit like this. Call me edgy all you want. I bet you call conservatives edgy for telling NEETs to go fuck themselves and stop being leeches.
>>26510342 Look at the trans movement, you fucking retard. Its rise is a direct result of gay marriage, nobody fucking cared before then. It was fringe and taboo and rightly-labeled as degenerate, a mental-illness.
>>26510300 >Womens right to her body Is by far the dumbest argument for abortion but by far recieves the most upboats.
Im all for abortion because the worl is really only 3 billion people away from its max capacity, and most abortions are niggers. But women like to act like children are literally just extensions of themselves even after they are born and always forget its a seperate human being.
>>26510315 For reference here, Roe v Wade was in the early 70's. We have yet to see any sort of escalation on abortion. In fact, uts still as devisive now as it was then. That will never change. Only retards like you believe in this literal slippery slope argument.
I for one am fine with abortion. However, it should not be govt subsidized in cases of "Hur dur, muh body muh rights". Only in cases of rape or necessity should it be paid for. Otherwise, take out a fucking loan, or maybe grow the fuck up. Also fathers should also have the right to opt out of all parental responsiblities, no child support.
Btw I could never kill my own child. Only reason I'm fine with it is because I could care less about others kids.
>>26509585 >baby gets born >is tossed around in the chlid care system and shitty familes until their 18 >end up more messed up then robots do >dumped to the street and become homeless >kill themselves or become drug addicts shortly after
>>26510987 If I was irresponsible, I'd be a single mother to a one year old niglet. But instead I'm 29, single, pay my own $1730 rent in Washington DC, pay every single bill alone, and have a normie $94000 salary.
>these unwanted babies, or clumps of cells as i like to call them, are useless and a hinderance for the human race >it should be my right to squash them like mere bugs at my convenience >getting an abortion is no different to me than getting a haircut, i feel as much for the clump of cells as i feel for the discarded hair lying on the floor edgy
>>26511406 Pregnant with twins here. My situation is farrrrrr under optimal. What if you have a family that found the idea of adoption insane and wouldn't allow you to do it even if it would be better for the kid(s) and would shame you to death for doing so?
>>26509038 OP's pic is of a 23 week emergency abortion. Aren't they only performed when the mother and baby are both going to die, or if the baby has some kind of severe genetic disorder (born without a brain, crazy stuff like that) or if the baby died but isn't big enough to do a still-birth?
>>26511517 >What if you have a family that found the idea of adoption insane and wouldn't allow you to do it even if it would be better for the kid(s) and would shame you to death for doing so? Good on them
Abortions would be fine if they were more balanced for males. Women should have the same rights they have now, but if a woman will have the baby that the father doesn't want he should be allowed to kill it once it is out of her body.
Because the plebforce runs through their veins... Literally the women I have seen lust just as much as men, just as publicly... it just isn't treated as a societal issue or an issue with women because most men are also just as much of normie plebs.
>>26509475 they only do this when the baby is dead. and also, a clamp is a lot smaller than a baby senpai and the baby is designed to come out of the cervix.
>>26509530 >>26509585 >implying that even a third of the children up for adoption would ever get adopted >implying that they wouldn't just be thrust into foster care like all of the other children no one wants >implying that they won't grow up feeling unloved and resentful of their mother >80 years of misery for a child that you were too much of a pussy to abort so you dropped it off instead because you """"have morals""""
what woman is gonna go through becoming a fatass baby warmer that vomits every morning and has raging hormones and split open their vagina for a kid they're not even gonna keep? a kid you're basically dooming to poverty in an already overpopulated world where the future is terribly bleak and the economy is in shambles
>>26511550 You don't have to promiscuous and hypersexual to get to the decision of having an abortion. Many women, even couples, will evaluate their life situation as much as possible and if they deem they just cannot take care of it, decide on abortion. Because remember, a woman will have to take time off from a job to have and nurse a baby then enroll them in incredibly expensive daycare centers to go back to work which can be a hassle since she wasn't able to save up any money while on leave. And then, many women still have babies even if their situation wasn't ideal for it (and are sometimes ridiculed for doing so).
>>26510635 how is it the dumbest? its fucking true. if one of you jackasses sticks your horrible disgusting dick in me against my consent and i get pregnant because of it, then i should not have to hold your gross offspring in my body for any amount of time. and i certainly shouldn't have to have my vagina torn open by your demonspawn because boo hoo the tumor you've implanted within me might come up with the cure for AIDs one day
>>26511837 >Friendly reminder that not allowing a pregnant woman the right to choose what is done with the fetus implies you are giving a higher priority to the fetus within her than you are to the actual woman. We don't give parents the right to kill their offspring at any point. We place children on a higher level of priority than them and reduce them to caretakers.
The fetus' rights end where they begin to inconvenience the free will of the host mother. Any allowance beyond that is simply out of her good will and can be revoked at any time prior to third trimester
>>26511957 >We place children on a higher level because they have already been born and have formed bonds with the world around them Completely arbitrary Unborn children have just as much of a right to live
>>26511957 >The fetus' rights end where they begin to inconvenience the free will of the host mother. Any allowance beyond that is simply out of her good will and can be revoked at any time prior to third trimester Couldn't this same logic be applied to any children still dependent on their parents?
No, because the child has since been born into the world and formed bonds and human relationships with those around it. The child has become a far more integral part of society than the fetus and cannot simply be undone.
As well, the child is no longer a part of the host mother and therefore she cannot argue against it from a position of her own body like she can with a fetus that resides within her
>>26511957 The fetus' rights end where they begin to inconvenience the free will of the host mother. Any allowance beyond that is simply out of her good will and can be revoked at any time prior to third trimester
lel have fun with your weird arbitrary ethics system
at least christfags can say they were dictated by god
Abortions are just another form of birth control. Do you guys feel bad for jerking off and killing a million little living cells at once? Do you feel bad for killing a bug? Fetuses aren't even sentient enough to acknowledge their own existence go fuck yourselves.
>>26509119 What needs to happen is that men can be allowed to disown a baby like a woman can (via adoption). This absolutely will not happen, since even people who don't call themselves feminist would be opposed to it.
>all these moralfags You all sound like 11 year olds who just found out that abortion is a thing and comment "oh my god poor thing I'm praying for them :(" on youtube videos of babies with severe birth defects.
Literal children are fed this shit by Disney. You think you're 'enlightened'? You've transcended, somehow? You can't create anything that nature doesn't allow you to create. The drive to create is just as biological as the drive to procreate, and gives you the same feedback loop of pleasure neurochemicals. You'll never not be a fucking animal, the sooner you accept this, the better. Until you stop feeling hunger, tiredness, and the need to eliminate, then sex drive and what you do with it has no bearing on how much of an animal you are.
You do realize that articulated thought (which yes, is an exclusively human thing as far as I know) is something different entirely from subjective experience? Saying animals don't have subjective experiences is like saying that babies don't have subjective experiences, until they can speak.
Imagine trying to write an autobiography using 100 words. That's the equivalent of trying to translate the whole of subjectivity into language. Into fucking words. It's not your world that's limited, it's your vocabulary.
why do so many idiots assume it's the woman's fault for getting pregnant? We all know about assholes who don't know how to wear a proper sized condom, or they don't pull out properly. or they insist they want a baby and then they leave their girlfriends. or even worse they fucking rape someone.
>>26514389 >there's solutions for all of those issues The pill (who has no scientific documented instances of not working in women that can use them). The marriage (which has a massive penalty for running away) I don't understand how people get raped but I guess..
>>26514447 Cavemen probably beat pregnant women that they managed to catch before raping yhem. Now we're just trying to prevent a person from finacial ruin due to their clear inability to make well thoughtout decisions like using fucking protection
>>26514926 yea you are right, in fact i'm surprised by how many of my friends refuse to take the pill. I used to be anti pill too, but now that i have a bf i realize how stupid it is to go without it. but also, i imagine for some people it's hard to acquire it. but most importantly, THE PILL CAN ALSO FAIL YO
>>26514953 you're clearly a virgin therefore your argument is invalid
Why do you all act like you'd prefer that a 15 year old be a mother rather than give birth?
>>26512045 because they aren't a themself you moron. the point you all seem to be missing here is that a fetus has literally no thought or world view or anything. nothing that even makes it any more distinguishable as a human being than a period clot does or the cum in your socks.
after it has a brain, you can make that argument. but it's not even a potential life until that point. it is nothing.
>>26509479 >cum slurping sluts magically turn into model parents when the baby is born. In no way should we be helping make sure inbred trash have fewer children. This child of a poor single party girl could grow up to become someone important, like shift manager at the Piggly Wiggly Shut the fuck up.
>>26512639 >men should be allowed to disown a baby You made the decision to have a child when you had sex, anon. Just because the government can't strap a woman down and force her to give birth doesn't mean you can walk away from your choice.
>>26509038 >DUDE IT'S JUST A CLUMP OF CELLS LMAO >posts pic of 23 week fetus
I see what you did there. Time matters bro. Why don't you post a pic of when it literally is just a clump of cells? Oh yeah, that's right because you probably believe a soul appears at the exact instant of creation.
>Tfw we all are from different parts of the world and our perspective of abortion is all different from one another. That's a pretty big mind fuck in SoCal it's pretty mixed but most of the younger generation will all guarantee get abortions if they feel like it everyone is also snobby and very fake. I don't like this place it's awful I wish I was in San Francisco.
>>26509038 >implying abortions are all done at 23 weeks Abortions are done anywhere from 3 to 12 weeks. This is an image of an emergency abortion you fucks.
>. In the United States abortions performed after 24 weeks are only performed due to health complications or else the procedure is considered intent to murder. Laws in this case vary from state to state.
>>26518058 How is pic related not a person to you?
Just subjectively speaking now, Maybe its because I have a kid and went through the process of witnessing pregnancy from the point of conception, but for me personally this looks and feels like a person to me and it repulses me to think of it being murdered.
>>26518608 Long after all that. There is a test for self awareness called the mirror test. It's not foolproof, but basically the researcher will put a smudge or something on the animal and put it in front of a mirror. If it touches the smudge or tries to groom itself, then it realizes that the image in the mirror is itself. Few animals pass, elephants, dolphins, and a couple birds are among them. Humans don't pass until after the age of 2.
I'm not saying it's ok to kill 2 year olds, I'm just saying it isn't so black and white. It's a complicated ethical issue.
I don't care about abortion, though. But, the way ethics are preserved in science are too restrictive and are a hamper on all sorts of research.
On one hand, I dislike how it enables roasties to be enormous, promiscuous sluts who can just turn around and kill a child to make up for their incredible lack of self responsibility.
Form a practical perspective, however, abortion is great. Said roasties shouldn't be having children to begin with, especially since they're likely to be raised by a shitty single mother that has already demonstrated she's a fucking idiot not capable of being a responsible adult. A byproduct of this is that a man won't end up getting cucked for life by having to pay for his shitty little bastard child (although, in most instances, the Chad that made the kid is probably as much of a piece of trash as his stupid gf, so he probably deserves it). Abortion also does a fantastic job of keeping the nigger population in check. Lastly, it's arguably immoral to bring a child into this world anyway.
I fucking hate how women hide this issue under the guise of "DUDE WOMENS HEALTH LMAO". Like as fucking if someone out there is opposed to mammograms. It's literally a shitty meme wedge issue made up by liberals to bait conservatives into biting so they can say "DUDE WAR ON WOMEN LMAO".
Abortion is just another way women avoid responsibility. I don't lose any sleep over this issue but the pro choice crowd are disgusting creatures and we should honestly shoot them in the streets tbqhfam.
I didn't say exclusively human things aren't exclusively human. Just like dinosaurs were unique, humans are unique. But we also have a vantage point of seeing life at a time where mammals are a lot more specialized than they were right after the great collision and extinction event.
Self-awareness evolved our modern human 'advancements' like the ability to be creative, or use language. In the end, though, they're evolved capabilities, like trichromatic color vision (which most other primates don't have) or echolocation.
Our intelligence is unique to us, but in the end, it's an evolved, not a divinely constructed trait. We have a lot of 'noise' because of how our brains operate, we're the only species who's life can be destroyed by mental illness that isn't neurodegenerative, and we're very sensitive to our surroundings at a very young age. Additionally, our 'creativity' allows us to self-delude ourselves, deny our other perceptions and instincts.
>>26520108 >muh baby slaughtering /pol/ logic everyone literally no abortions are carried out after the foetus starts to develop neural pathways and sentience, so at that point it's literally a vegetable
>>26519848 It's true that all those advancements are evolved, just as the drive to survive or procreate. But those advancements are what set us apart from beasts.
Besides, humanity isn't separate from nature. We're a part of it. At this moment, we are the apex of nature. It's just happened that we've developed the ability to see the aesthetics of the world, study science and history, create music and visual arts, and argue about abortion on the internet. We're the only part of the biosphere that can do those things.
I'm just saying that should act on more than just the instincts that all animals share.
>>26509075 >We have a population problem! Stop having babies, get abortions! >But the real problem is that all these brown people are having way more babies then anyone else. They should be having abortions and using protection. >Racist!
If Roe v. Wade never happened, this country would be nearly 25% black today. But it is 13%
Planned Parenthood was founded by Margaret Sanger, a dedicated Eugenics supporter. While modern cuckservatives love Mexican immigrants, 'progressive' Sanger believed that immigration should be limited to only Northern Europeans and that those unfit to procreate should be sterilized.
Sanger described blacks as 'barely better than Chimpanzees' as she worked hand in hand with black ministers to distribute birth control to their congregations.
Planned Parenthood is the #1 killer of blacks in the USA and worldwide is second only to AIDS and Malaria. They kill hundreds of future Mike Browns every day.
Any candidate who opposes planned parenthood or abortion is a cuckservative.
>>26520594 >Cases without the death penalty cost $740,000, while cases where the death penalty is sought cost $1.26 million. Maintaining each death row prisoner costs taxpayers $90,000 more per year than a prisoner in general population. Except you're wrong
>>26509119 >you can't really force someone to have a baby.
Having readily available abortion is best for society, but this argument is shit. Why can't you? "Bodily autonomy?"
Feminists claim that we recognize bodily autonomy as more important than the life of another person because you aren't forced to be an organ donor. Except we have the draft and male circumcision. And those are things that happen automatically, not even as a consequence of voluntary choice. If you choose to drive, you also consent to DUI testing, including by drawing blood if necessary.
>>26509038 I worked in an abortion clinic we never did anything above 12 weeks.
Fuck you, you have no idea what the story is from abortion to abortion. Sometimes its because the Mothers life is at stake, others is because there is a deformity. I've seen cases of incest against a minor. Rape, job loss, divorce. There are several stories its not all ghetto cunts using it as birth control.
>>26521363 It's well established in the courts that, because child support is "for the benefit of the child" and not the mother, crimes committed by the mother can't be used in determining child support.
>OP doesn't realise that late term abortions are a miniscule minority of abortions >OP doesn't realise that the vast majority of abortions occur in the first trimester >OP doesn't realise that late term abortions are overwhelmingly of children who were deformed to the point of being unable to live or children who have already died or pregnancies that would kill the mother >OP doesn't realise that formerly these late term abortions delivered the child in tact so that grieving families could bury or mourn the corspe >OP doesn't realise that this gross mangling of the fetus was only enacted due to increased attempts to legislate against abortion by /pol/tards like himself >OP actually thinks abortion is a bad thing >OP actually wants more people on this planet >OP actually wants to pay child support for 18 years >OP actually wants crime rates to rise when single mothers attempt to raise full-retard children or they end up in the government's shitty child care system >OP actually
People who want a paternity opt-out would generally agree that there should be welfare for single parents that need it, they just don't think the other parent should be forced to pay.
Also, it's convenient for feminists to claim lots of men are dead beat dads. I don't know if that's true, but most of the other things they say are lies. Under a system of presumed innocence, if we don't make men who were coerced (which is extremely hard to prove) pay support, also making it hard to collect from people who are just deadbeats is the price to pay.
>>26521858 >paternity opt-out I don't know what you mean.
> it's convenient for feminists to claim lots of men are dead beat dads. You might not like feminists, but they make excellent points about how difficult it is to find meaningful legislation for rape victims.
For example, you can't say "a man isn't a rape victim because he was married to/dating the accused" because marital rape exists. You can't say, "he wasn't raped because the child is three years old now" because rape victims may need time to process their trauma. So it's very hard to determine whether someone was assaulted.
> Under a system of presumed innocence
I don't like that term. You mean "presumed innocence" in that "this man didn't mean to have sex with this woman/meant to get her pregnant", but we both agreed the exception should be based on the man's victim status. That automatically implies that the woman was a rapist. That isn't "presumed innocence", that's presumed guilt of the woman.
It's pros and cons at this point. I think the current system of "fathers pay child support" should be maintained, because more people benefit than people lose.
If women were "presumed guilty" and child support was not automatic, then plenty of deadbeats would get out of taking care of their children. Significant numbers of children would be financially deprived and suffer the consequences of that (especially in countries without dental, health care, etc.). On the plus side, male rape victims would receive some nepenthe by no longer being indebted to their rapist.
However, I believe it's more likely that there are more dead beats than rape victims. What's more likely? People being dicks? Or people being violent criminals? Theft is more likely than murder. In the current system, more parents and children stand to win. In the other system, there is only one possible group that would deservedly benefit, and I don't think they are that numerous.
The ability of a father to renounce any responsibility for a child as easily as a mother can.
>Significant numbers of children would be financially deprived and suffer the consequences of that (especially in countries without dental, health care, etc.).
I'm talking about the US and other Western first world countries, and I already said that the state should step in when the parent(s) don't.
I don't think it's fair to give one gender almost exclusive control and the ability to rope the other in. In most cases, a couple will agree how to raise a child on their own and not go to court over it. There are also deadbeats. But if there's an accidental pregnancy or anything, the woman has all the power. A lot of that is just biology, but I see no need to extend that to financial support.
When anti-choice people say women should be responsible for the known risks of voluntary choices they make, feminists laugh and ask if these people really think people should just abstain from sex until they want a child. Then they turn around and say men should be responsible for the known risks of their voluntary choices.
>that's presumed guilt of the woman.
You're describing a situation where one or the other party must be guilty. In a system of presumed innocence, they are both presumed innocent. Failure to prove guilt of one does not prove guilt of the other.
The woman is innocent, so she does not serve time or lose custody for rape. The man is innocent, so he is not made to pay an enormous sum of money. The woman and child lose out on nothing if the state is able to provide support.
>they make excellent points about how difficult it is to find meaningful legislation for rape victims.
You have a point, and I keep using feminist to mean currently popular "women's rights" beliefs. So substitute that if you want.
>conservatives constantly complaining about SJWs being irrational and making emotional arguments >yet when it comes to abortion their entire argument is "L-LOOK, IT KIND OF LOOKS LIKE A HUMAN!!! D-DON'T YOU FEEL B-BAD???"
Just fucking kill yourselves already you mouthbreathing retards.
I'm not pro-choice at all. I'm pro-abortion. That is: abortion should be the default expectation for every pregnancy and only after enough good reasons to continue with it have been reached will the proto-human be allowed to continue growing.
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