Any vegan/vegetarian robots?
I'm considering going vegan. I see it as the most logical course of action, given the ethical and environmental, and potentially health benefits.
I've had this view for a long time now, but have been nihilistic towards the idea in the same way that I'm nihilistic towards politics, my action/inaction won't make any difference.
But it's logically ridiculous to hold that view, because it would result in nothing ever happening. I think its rooted in my self-hatred, in that, I don't feel like I belong in this world, and so there's no way I can make a contribution.
I also find anti-vegan arguments to be idiotic, and the whole of "bacon tho" culture is big-bang theory level of humour. absolutely disgusting.
I'm starting to see parallels between religious people and meat-eaters, in that people seem to repeat the same debunked arguments, and become offended and emotional during any discussion.
It also opens up the door for trolling normies.
Humans have eyes on the front of the head because we are hunters and it allows us to track prey easier. Humans also can't naturally digest fruit and vegetables, we rely on the bacteria in our intestines to do it for us.
There you go, 2 evolutionary reasons not to be vegan
I eat some meat but usually just a steak tartare/week. I'm trying to erase all manufactured food from my diet for health reasons.
Be careful about vegan/vegetarian diets, they're not necessarily adapted to you. I know many vegans who swallow tons of greasy gluten-laden shit and wonder why they have leaky guts and acne and shit.
Also, some races are more or less tolerant to lactose or surgar. If you're white from northern europe you're most likely completely tolerant to lactose. If you're black, you may want to avoid lactose and sugar since blacks are more prone to high blood pressure and diabetes.
Don't forget that your body is not an intellectual concept, it's a machine that requires an adapted fuel source. You can tweak it a little but don't be like those idiots who kill their pets because they pretend that dogs and cats can be vegan. Hint: no they can't. Don't force a cow to eat meat either.
Evolutionary reasons shouldn't have any merit. Evolution is the process that causes species to change over time, not a manual on how to live. Humans can live reasonably healthy lives on a vegan diet, or at least with less meat.
I see your point. I haven't decided if I will go full vegan, or just reduce meat in my diet such as yourself. I need to do more research on the health aspects, I have come across many anecdotal examples of vegans being healthy, and the one vegan I know IRL, is also the healthiest person I've met.
I wouldn't be dumb enough to put others at risk.
Enjoy dying for lack of B12
and enjoy being beaten by fatass in any physical activity too
and enjoy getting married only to chubby or fat feminists vegan tumblerinas or "fembots"
enjoy your new life as a vegan
C U C K
>implying I would ever get in that situation
This is not a troll question but is it just the vegans I know or is it their diet? Every vegan I know has horrible gas 24/7. What causes this? Also op being a vegan is stupid it's not healthy and I'm not saying you fall into this category but 90% of vegans are only vegan to feel "morally superior" so if you do decide to be a vegan for the love of god keep it to yourself
>Any vegan/vegetarian robots?
I've been a vegetarian for over ten years now. I didn't really see any point in going full-on vegan since dairy farming isn't necessarily a questionable practice. If you're that concerned about it, you could always just buy dairy from trusted brands that assuredly don't mistreat their cows.
>I see it as the most logical course of action, given the ethical and environmental, and potentially health benefits.
There are some health benefits like decreased cholesterol levels and stable blood pressure, but if you're not careful, you can also become malnourished. Be sure to consume plenty of foods rich in protein, such as peanut butter or dairy (assuming you go vegetarian)
I pack around 90 to 120g of protein a day, but that's mostly from protein shakes. I guess you could get just as much from nuts, legumes and quinoa, assuming you decided to go the vegan route.
>my action/inaction won't make any difference
This is referred to as a "perfect solution" fallacy. You can't diminish your efforts just because they don't bring about any drastic or visible changes. Your efforts are still resulting in *some* level of difference, and you need to give yourself credit for that. You're decreasing the demand for meat processing and consumption, and collectively, your efforts and mine contribute to a larger whole.
Besides, who's to say how others might be influenced by your actions. If you lead by example, other people may become more comfortable with the idea of embracing a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle. Just don't go out of your way to force it on them, because that will have the opposite result. Disregard any militant groups you encounter, and keep this mantra in mind: "The only choices I can be responsible for are my own." If other people are to become a part of this cause, they have to be allowed to do so on their own terms, or not at all.
>caring about animals
>caring about other people opinions
Vegetarian who's trying to go vegan but relies on parents for food so sometimes there's only dairy around here
Feels like shit
Biggest motivator for me is that meat just feels dirty. Like sliding down a rabbit hole I don't want to be caught up in. It's a lot more visceral than it is me holding myself up to concrete ideals.
Retarded arguements for/against veganism aside, why can't people just keep that shit to themselves? I mean, I have vegan friends who don't go around preaching their ways to everyone and acting high and mighty. It's their life choice and it's alright. But annoying people who talk about how awesome they are because they are vegans and how shitty everyone else is are just silly. Ofc, same thing goes to meat eaters who can't stop trolling someone who decides not to eat meat.
>I haven't decided if I will go full vegan, or just reduce meat in my diet such as yourself.
Well you can always begin by reducing it. But remember that as far as health is concerned, meat is not the problem, rather its quantity and quality. People have problem because they eat tons of hormone & antibiotics-laden meat.
Just eat meat once or twice a week, of the best quality you can find. Same for fish. Of course if you're not lucky to have organic farms/organic food markets around you it may not be easy to find.
>the one vegan I know IRL, is also the healthiest person I've met.
Don't make the mistake of comparing yourself to others. I know a very healthy dude who smokes a pack a day since he's 12 and is borderline alcoholic. Maybe it'll catch up to him one day, maybe it won't, but what is certain is that we don't have the same stats so don't compare yourself to others, try things and find what is good for you.
That's all you can do. For instance, there's all this noise about gluten free diet being good or bad or dumb or whatever, just try it for yourself. The catch here is that if you buy gluten free manufactured products, they're full of harmful chemicals and have too much sugar. But what is a real gluten free diet? A paleo diet.
Just try new things and think. When it comes down to it, you know when you put something inside your body if it's good or bad. When you drink soda deep down you know it's full of cancerous shit. When you eat a fruit you know it's good for you. You try to forget, but you know, you know you should do the right thing, tell your fucked up reward circuit to shut up and do what's good for you.
Anyway, good luck. If you started getting interested in this before having any kind of serious health problem, you're smart.
The health thing is really not that hard. You just need to supplement your diet with new sources of protein [nuts, lentils beans, tofu, meat substitutes (if you like that sort of thing)]
>why can't people just keep that shit to themselves
I do. My non-vegeterian associates, on the other hand, can't seem to shut up about how wrong my lifestyle is. "God put animals here for us to eat! What you're doing is unnatural!"
The only reason they even know I'm a vegetarian is because I might have to mention if it we all go out for pizza, or something. Obviously we can't share the same toppings. It's not like I throw myself over a peperoni and sausage pizza and scream murder.
I get it bro, that's why I said it goes the other way too naturally. Live and let live, that's my moto, it just isn't worth it being an asshole toward people and trying to change them since it often just doesn't work and is a waste of energy.
I love animals and I don't wish them harm, but at the same time I really don't give a fuck and I find vegetarians/vegans irritating as shit, enough to outweigh the arguable objective good they could be doing
>there's all this noise about gluten free diet being good or bad or dumb or whatever
What? People go gluten-free because of food allergies. Celic disease and non-celic gluten intolerance cause people to become very ill if they consume anything containing wheat, or even anything that has been processed on shared assembly lines with wheat due to minute contamination.
Gluten-free isn't some kind of fad diet anymore than lactose-free is a fad diet. Either your body can tolerate gluten or it can't.
BALANCE IS THE KEY EVERYTHING IN LIFE CUNTS. EAT ALL THE COLOURS.
I know, but even you are implying that gluten free diet is only for people with celiac disease. My personal opinion is that "mild" gluten intolerance is widespread, like lactose intolerance.
When I stop consuming dairy I don't have acne. As soon as I eat the smallest yoghurt my face becomes greasy as fuck and is full of pimples. Yet I'm not considered lactose intolerant since it doesn't interfere with my digestion.
Before being diagnosed with crohn's disease, eating the normal amount of gluten products gave be something considered as IBS. Yet I don't have celiac disease.
It's not a all or nothing problem, imo. I think a lot of people would benefit from a gluten free diet but won't try it because "omg you're a conspiracy theorist, it's perfectly okay to eat gulten all day everyday unless you have the celiac disease".
Decided to go vegetarian (not vegan) for lent. It's really hard so far, not sure I can make it all the way through.
But you're right, if one were a better person you'd become vegan and never look back.
Don't kid yourself anon, if a cow ever got the chance, he'd kill you, and everyone you cared about!
I think that using gifs from old simpsons episodes should become the new 2016 meme
I'm heading that way too OP. Not vegan cuz animal products are almost in everything, but definitely leaning towards vegetarian. I love dogs and I have followed some accounts on IG of farm animal sanctuaries and seeing the same emotions I see in dogs expressed in farm animals breaks my heart to think they get rounded up and treated like shit and then slaughtered. So I won't be preachy about it, it's just personal about my character and how I feel. As is the same with many different aspects of life, other people can do whatever the fuck they want, I only worry about myself. Pic related.
>>I've had this view for a long time now, but have been nihilistic towards the idea in the same way that I'm nihilistic towards politics, my action/inaction won't make any difference.
When will underage memers stop misunderstanding Neitzsche?
>not starting here
I do recommend it, anon. I'm eating all the starches I can stuff my face with and I lost about 12 kg in 6 months. Went from 98 kg to 86kg.
I will never go vegan because cholesterol is essential for testosterone production, and vitamin B12 is essential for brain function. You can get cholesterol on a vegan diet but it's incredibly expensive and your only option is unsaturated fat, you can't get any saturated. B12 isn't present at all and you have to supplement it.
The human body makes its own cholesterol, and B12 is in almost all fortified foods.
Assuming you live in the US and have an otherwise typical diet, whether you're vegan or not, you actually have to make a concerted effort NOT to eat fortified foods to get a B12 deficiency.
Fortified foods are everywhere and whether you're vegan or vegetarian or a meat-eater, a lot of your vitamins and minerals are going to end up being from fortified foods unless you go out of your way to avoid them.
Vitamin B12 is necessary and not found naturally in vegan diets but it's easily synthesized and a lot of foods are fortified with it to the point that a bowl of most major cereal brands a day provides you with more than enough B12 and more than is found in most people's "natural" diet.
>the body makes it's own
To ensure the integrity of membrane structure, yes. You're not going to produce decent levels of testosterone without any dietary cholesterol. Enjoy having the hormonal profile of an 80 year old man I guess.
I don't live in the US, so that's a fair point. I don't eat processed food at all unless I'm having a meal in a social environment.
>fortified foods are everywhere
I mainly eat meat, rice, sweet potato, peanut butter, whole milk and a range of vegetables and fruits. If you eat a healthy diet you shouldn't rely on fortified foods. Foritfied foods only exists to stop idiot manchildren who won't eat properly from keeling over due to deficiency.
If a diet doesn't contain a vitamin essential for life you can bet it's going to come with a whole other host of deficiencies too. I'm not sacrificing my health for animal welfare.
By the way, here are some fortified foods, some vegan, some not.
1. Almost all dairy milk is fortified with vitamin D (and it naturally contains B12)
2. Most of the mainstream breakfast cereals (Rice Krispies, Cheerios) are fortified with B12 and other nu trients. They also contain Vitamin D, I believe in this case ultimately derived from lanolin--so vaguely non-vegan but not enough to matter for most people's level of commitment. It's questionable whether abstaining from lanolin-derived vitamin D would make any difference to the number of animals bred for meat production even over a lifetime. There are some other mainstream cereals that are fortified with B12, but not D, too.
3. The major rice milk, soy milk, and almond milk brands are fortified with B12 and D (in this case usually ultimately derived from edible fungi.
4. Almost all protein/energy bars are fortified with multiple vitamins and minerals, usually including B12, calcium, zinc, and D, and others.
You really have to consciously avoid eating fortified foods, assuming you eat a typical North American diet. They're part of most peoples' diet in America--even people who don't abstain from meat and/or dairy.
note, batabata-cha (a type of Japanese tea from Japan) also contains B12, produced by the microorganisms that ferment the tea.
>You're not going to produce decent levels of testosterone without any dietary cholesterol.
>Vegans had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters, but this was offset by higher sex hormone binding globulin, and there were no differences between diet groups in free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide or luteinizing hormone.
>If a diet doesn't contain a vitamin essential for life you can bet it's going to come with a whole other host of deficiencies too.
No you can't. That's an extrapolation.
>You're not going to produce decent levels of testosterone without any dietary cholesterol.
There is no evidence for this. All the studies I could find show vegans have higher testosterone levels than omnivores.
>If a diet doesn't contain a vitamin essential for life you can bet it's going to come with a whole other host of deficiencies too.
Bold claim but unfortunately there is no evidence for it.
I'm a vegetarian, I eat vegan most of the time but when there's nothing else to eat when I'm out I can eat something that has cheese in it; I'm also not against backyard eggs or eating oysters but that's just my ethical point of view. I'm not like most vegans though, because I do value some species more than others, the idea that all species have equal value is just silly. I recommend you go vegan for your own reasons and choose a high starch, low fat diet with minimum processed food, I follow a diet like that and I have a lot of energy, my skin looks amazing, I don't have any BO, even my poop doesn't smell bad! Go for it anon.
Been a junk food vegetarian for 10 years now. Never had any problems and my blood tests are fine.
I'm fine with people who live vegan because of health (shit, i know i should eat less meat).
If you do it for enviromental reasons, its kinda stupid because you wont ever profit from it but whatever makes you feel like you're doing something important..
>given the ethical
Thats where you can just suck a dozen dicks. That's alot less gay and probably more fun (for you).
If you give a shit about animal life that is worth infinitely less than ever your own worthless life you are a normie and a failure to humanity and nature.
I'm not vegetarian, but I don't eat meat often, maybe 0-2 times per week. I don't love it, it can be nice every once in a while but most of the time there are other things I'd rather eat. I like beans and soy better and they're cheaper too. And there's also the inefficiency. If you have to grow plants to feed the animals, why not just eat the plants yourself? There's so much waste involved. So when I do eat meat it's almost always poultry or fish, since beef and pork take much more energy to produce the same amount of meat. I've been wanting to try rabbit and maybe some insects (I know, I'm honestly curious though) too.
I don't really care to go full vegan, since I think a low intake of animal products is enough and I still get to eat them when I really want to, it just isn't often. I am trying to buy as much food organic as I can though, both for health and environmental reasons.
By the way, if you're looking for meat substitutes, tempeh is great and much better than tofu.
I was vegetarian for two years and I managed to lose 50lbs. Looking back its not the fact that I was vegetarian that made me lose all the weight but the fact that I was no longer eating process crap anymore.
I was a vegetarian for 14 years, and I never regretted it.
Right now, I try to mix things up. Some days I'll eat meat, other days I'll eat veggie burgers.
It's a pretty good lifestyle, plus the veggie burgers aren't all that bad. I actually prefer them to meat most of the time.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, do whatever man. Meat is delicious, but so are veggie burgers
I never considered myself a vegetarian, but I eat vegetarian meat from time to time, just because it's pretty good.
Last time I ate a big mac, it was really weird. The image of a cow hanging from a hook in a processing plant somewhere flashed in my head, and I instantly lost my appetite. Ive eaten burgers since then, so I think it's just shit quality beef that makes me not want to eat it.
fuck veggie burgers
they taste nothing like meat
>Why do you think we're "retarded"?
>God forbid someone have empathy for another living creature
If you have the same or more empathy for another species than for your own you are pretty fucked imo.
I'm not an edgy fuck who would torture or mistreat animal for no good reason but if they have to suffer or die so that i can have delicious meat thats in no way wrong.
Nature's on my side, who's on yours?
>If you have the same or more empathy for another species than for your own you are pretty fucked imo.
Oh. So it's just your opinion? What do you base that opinion on?
>I'm not an edgy fuck who would torture or mistreat animal for no good reason but if they have to suffer or die so that i can have delicious meat thats in no way wrong.
What's the difference between "right" and "wrong"? What is "the right thing"?
>Nature's on my side, who's on yours?
Appeal to nature is a fallacy.
If we were on a plane crash in a remote frigid region I'd eat you after you starved to death because you're a limp wristed baby OP. Fuck you, when you finally peace out of this world maggots and worms aren't gonna give a shit what you ate.
Quality thread, faggot.
Nice argument. Nased on what? Muh feels? Humans have evolved to be omnivores. Why should we stop? Who'll maintain the population of domestic animals. The sole purpose of cows and pigs is to be oir food.
>Oh. So it's just your opinion? What do you base that opinion on?
On my opinion you fucktard, i dont claim to be god and the know the purpose of the universe.
>Appeal to nature is a fallacy.
Funny because that's what most animal activists do, they claim to speak for nature&shit
Lmao its in no way wrong. Ok whatever you say. Yea nature is on our side why don't you shit and piss outside like the animals do? Aren't you a big bad wolf with big canine teeth like the lion in OP's pic? xD
>Nice argument. Nased on what?
Veganism is often a result of utilitarianism.
>Humans have evolved to be omnivores. Why should we stop?
We evolved to be able to live off varying diets. To the best of our knowledge, all of our personalities are the results of our genetics and conditioning (the possible existence of quantum indeterminacy aside), so evidently some of us have evolved brains that given a certain set of conditions will compel us to eschew animal products.
>Who'll maintain the population of domestic animals.
Most vegans oppose the breeding of livestock. They don't need to exist. They do more harm to the ecosystem than good.
>The sole purpose of cows and pigs is to be oir food.
From your perspective, maybe.
Yeah, I'm vegan. You're not going to change the world by yourself, but that shouldn't be a deterrent. The world would actually be a better place if everyone did what they truly believed instead of going along with what's easy/accepted.
I am a bit conflicted with my veganism, because eating meat is natural, but the way we get it is disgusting and we don't need it to survive. I completely understand why people don't go vegan - meat and dairy taste nice and it's much less socially isolating to eat them - but for some people the ethics are more important.
As for health, don't be tricked into thinking veganism is objectively healthier or vice versa. You can be healthy no matter what your dietary restrictions are, it depends on the specifics of what you eat. Make your decision on veganism based on ethics, not psuedo-science.
Omnivores do tend to get emotional and angry when discussing veganism - it's just cognitive dissonance. I respect the honesty of people who don't give a shit about animals or the environment and continue to eat meat for selfish reasons, but people who hate vegans I can only assume are defensive and uncomfortable with their own position on the issue. It's frustrating because their insecurity suggests that they could actually be vegans themselves if they weren't so in denial about the idea that they could possibly have been doing something wrong/against their personal moral code for so long.
If you are seriously considering going vegan I'd recommend checking out Unnatural Vegan on YouTube.
When you live in the wild, a dead animal is a fucking dream. Your whole day consists of getting food and staying alive. Meat is a large quantity of food that is composed of protein and fat and is very calorie dense. Oh my god thats all you need to survive right there. You will be stronger, and youll gain weight so you can survive longer without food. Plant food is often composed of mostly carbs, with the exception of nuts. Carbs give you quick energy but doesnt give you the building blocks to develop your body and stay healthy.
>but we dont live in the wild
Even more reason to eat meat. If we live in such luxury, we should be eating quality food too.
I can understand vegetarianism in the modern world, but veganism is absolutely retarded. Consuming milk and eggs doesnt hurt animals at all. Its natures gift and we should be making use of that.
Its not. Yes, i do realize the living conditions of these animals are horrible, but thats something else we should work on. Thats something the industry should change, boycotting the industry is not going to work. It has to change in another way.
>Even more reason to eat meat. If we live in such luxury, we should be eating quality food too.
Bit of a logic leap there. The real 'luxury' is that we have easily accessible alternatives to meat.
>I can understand vegetarianism in the modern world, but veganism is absolutely retarded.
I've got nothing against vegetarians, but really veganism is the logical conclusion to their argument. The way we get dairy absolutely harms animals. More to the point, dairy is unnatural for us - it's intended for cows.
Veganism is way worse for the environment than sustainable meat eating seeing as how many habitats are torn down to support the monocropping if soy, corn, and wheat. The three main staples of your average vegan.
Veganism is dumb for ethical reason and even dumber to nutritional reasons.
>Veganism is way worse for the environment than sustainable meat eating seeing as how many habitats are torn down
Gonna need a source on that, and ideally not research funded by the meat industry. It's not ideal - there is no ideal food source when the world is overpopulated - but saying it's worse than eating meat is an exaggeration.
>Soy, corn, and wheat. The three main staples of your average vegan.
And this you definitely pulled out of your ass. Personally I avoid all three, besides the occasional tofu.
>Veganism is way worse for the environment than sustainable meat eating seeing as how many habitats are torn down to support the monocropping if soy, corn, and wheat. The three main staples of your average vegan.
>Reward farmers for doing it in a natural way
What exactly is the natural way of acquiring milk from cows to give to humans on a mass scale?
>make poor living conditions illegal.
Would be great, but how would support for a change like that be built up? We live in a consumer society, the main way people make themselves heard is with their wallets. The meat and dairy industries will improve once they see financial evidence of people not standing for their behavior. How could the government justify making illegal something that citizens clearly don't care about?
>Veganism is way worse for the environment than sustainable meat eating seeing as how many habitats are torn down to support the monocropping if soy, corn, and wheat.
m8, you're retarded
what do you think they feed the cows you're eating? grass? lol
they're mainly fed soy, corn and other grains and grains for animal farming are a bigger use of land than grains for human consumption
it takes about 4-20 times as much land (depending on the animal) to get as much grain to feed animals to eat than it takes to eat the grain itself
just google it
this is no big secret or something that's really even debated - the animals have it pretty rough
People have been chugging cow milk for centuries. Especially in europe. I know that asians, africans and americans often have a lactose intolerance but europeans have adapted their body to drinking cow milk over years. Its completely natural. You know why? Because it contains the nutrients we need to live a healthy life, and its convenient because it comes in much larger quantities than human breast milk. So cow milk is amazing and we would we stupid to not drink it.
It certainly contains a lot of nutrients, but nothing that you can't get from much more convenient/morally sound sources. If it is so essential, what do you suggest Asians and Africans do? Just ignore their lactose intolerance because they need those essential nutrients that they can't possibly get from anywhere else? The fact Europeans adapted to tolerate it does not make it natural or essential for our survival.
Listen, i do realize animals have poor living conditions. And honestly im not concerned with that. But i can see why you are. If you want to change that then you should focus on the reason why they have poor living conditions and try to make a change there. Dont cut out animal products out of your diet just for that reason. Thats the same logic as getting a circumcision because "its cleaner". Why dont you just clean it then instead of cutting it off?
>dairy farming isn't necessarily a questionable practice.
Oh my, you are severely mistaken, friend. The industry supplying your eggs and milk is the same industry treating animals like shit and abusing their short tortured lives as slaves to the demand.
Farmers raise animals because they can do so with land that won't grow food that humans can really consume. They also produce fertilizer necessary to grow that human-edible food in any useful quantities without stripping the land of nutrients. Replacing livestock farms with corn, beans, lettuce, etc isn't really doable as then we're going to run out of sources for fertilizer (don't use human shit, it will cause epidemics) and have vaste swathes of land that can basically only grow grass.
That ship has sailed. We've domesticated breeds and their populations are in the millions. No longer raising them for food means genocide, because they certainly cannot live in the wild. Also, we destroy wild habitats just by existing in the numbers we do. Our sewers, cars, buildings, garbage, deforestation, reforestation and basically everything about us changes ecosystems. You want to destroy all humans now to save the animals? Lots of animals will die off while others adapt. That's what happens when there's a dominant species and it's really nothing new, it's just happening faster now because we're the most adept at survival yet. Surely we should continue trying to counteract some of the damage we've done and research ways to not fuck ourselves over, but as far as ethics go, it really doesn't matter what we do. Our survival is ALWAYS at the cost of other life, even for autotrophs, because you still have the need for physical space and compete for resources, even if you're not directly eating other creatures.
>you should focus on the reason why they have poor living conditions and try to make a change there
The reason they have poor living conditions is because it's cheap. The industry (and all industries) will do everything in its power to maximize profit, and will cut as many corners as they can without losing customers. They will stop cutting those corners once it causes them to lose customers.
This isn't the only reason I'm vegan, though. It's not just that I think the meat and dairy industries are bad in their current state, it's that there's really no need for them any more. We can be healthy without animal products, so what's the point of keeping them on at such a big cost to the environment and (for some of us) our desire to not hurt animals when we don't need to?
>Oh trust me
No, provide a source.
I'm only tempted to that because of the environmental impact the meat industry has on the world I don't really care about animals dying, the only reason I don't is because I'm a super picky eater and if I cut out all meat and dairy I'd end up eating next to nothing but it's not like my diet is any better nutrient wise than a vegan diet, also I could use the aforementioned moral high ground to feel better about myself :/ people can do whatever they want there is no right way
Wrong. You would be much healthier if you ate meat. Animal protein and fat is absolutely necessary in a balanced diet. Not to mention the vitamins and minerals youre missing out on.
>Farmers raise animals because they can do so with land that won't grow food that humans can really consume.
Maybe true 1000 AD but in the modern world this is plain nonsense. Almost all farm animals are fed on soy, corn, wheat and other human edible grains.
>Replacing livestock farms with corn, beans, lettuce, etc isn't really doable
You don't have to replace anything. Just instead of feeding 20kg of soy to cows to get a kilo of beef just eat the soy.
Agricultural waste (AKA cow shit) is a massive pollutant problem and the fertilizer argument is ridiculous since we're manufacturing the shit in such enormous quantities that getting rid of it is the problem.
>No longer raising them for food means genocide, because they certainly cannot live in the wild.
Alternatively we keep them alive for 20 months and then genocide them all only to do the same to the next generation and the generation after that.
>Also, we destroy wild habitats just by existing in the numbers we do.
True and animal agriculture is one of the biggest factors. Agricultural waste is the leading pollutant of the oceans, animal agriculture is responsible for more greenhouse emissions than all cars, air planes, boats and trains on the planet combined, and land usage for cattle production is the biggest factor in the destruction of the Amazon.
The rest of your post is barely comprehensible >muh feels nonsense.
>To Nicholas Strausfeld, a tiny brain is a beautiful thing. Over his 35-year career, the neurobiologist at the University of Arizona at Tucson has probed the minute brain structures of cockroaches, water bugs, velvet worms, brine shrimp, and dozens of other invertebrates. Using microscopes, tweezers, and hand-built electronics, he and his graduate students tease apart -- ever so gently -- the cell-by-cell workings of brain structures the size of several grains of salt. From this tedious analysis Strausfeld concludes that insects possess "the most sophisticated brains on this planet."
>Strausfeld and his students are not alone in their devotion. Bruno van Swinderen, a researcher at the Neurosciences Institute (NSI) in San Diego, finds hints of higher cognitive functions in insects -- clues to what one scientific journal called "the remote roots of consciousness."
>"Many people would pooh-pooh the notion of insects having brains that are in any way comparable to those of primates," Strausfeld adds. "But one has to think of the principles underlying how you put a brain together, and those principles are likely to be universal."
>The findings are controversial. "The evidence that I've seen so far has not convinced me," says Gilles Laurent, a neuroscientist at Caltech. But some researchers are considering possibilities that would shock most lay observers. "We have literally no idea at what level of brain complexity consciousness stops," says Christof Koch, another Caltech neuroscientist. "Most people say, 'For heaven's sake, a bug isn't conscious.' But how do we know? We're not sure anymore. I don't kill bugs needlessly anymore."
nah eating just vegetables is for pussies, and i always start to feel sick/weak when i don't eat meat for a week
>Animal protein and fat is absolutely necessary in a balanced diet.
No it's not. Vegetarians don't even generally have shorter lifespans. I'd argue quite the opposite. You're putting yourself at a higher risk for heart disease and colon cancer by consuming meat. Meats are loaded down with saturated fat and usually a lot of added sodium.
Have you had your cholesterol checked lately? I'm a 6'1", 190-lb., 31-year-old man who's been a vegetarian since he was 20, and every checkup I get, the doctor tells me my cholesterol is way better than a man my age should be.
>Enjoy dying for lack of B12
Actually, we invented supplements for vitamin B12.
>and enjoy being beaten by fatass in any physical activity too
Health depends on the specifics of your diet/lifestyle. You can be healthy whether you eat animal products or not, and you can get muscular off of plant protein. I think you'll find that most omnivores are quite unhealthy, at least in the Western world. There's also some irony on this comment coming from an /r9k/ user, given that the main demographic here is skinny white boys.
>and enjoy getting married only to chubby or fat feminists vegan tumblerinas or "fembots"
A lot of attractive women are vegan, actually, and having that in common is a great starting point. Of course, the same irony from the previous post applies, given that this board tends to be dominated by >tfw gf.
>Literally google it. I'm don't know every single vitamin youre missing out on out of my head.
It sounds like you don't even know one. I'm sure Google isn't going to find anything that doesn't already exist in supplement form.
>"stupid claim "
>be more specific
>"waaa, loaded question"
m8, you were asked because you were wrong
there is no major nutrient lacking in a standard vegan diet
only thing is usually mentioned is vitamin B12 but in 2016 AD you'd pretty much have to go out of your way not to get enough of it, vegan or not
Veganism is kind of gay. I guess you're worried about how the animals are housed and treated where we gather our eggs and milk on a national scale; factory farming and all that. I get that, I don't give a shit but I get that. You should just source your animal products from places that give you a peace of mind. You can probably get eggs from a farmer's market from some guy raising his own chickens well.
Vegetarianism on the other hand, has its merits. It's cheaper when done right. Just cutting out red meat has its health benefits, etc. Monitor your nutritional intake very well the first six months or so. This is a good opportunity to do so. If you honestly take the time here to care about what you put into your body you'll come out on top of the average person. A lot of vegetarians are just retarded about nutrition, like a lot of people.
you don't even have to buy supplements
just eat a bowl of cheerios or a kellogg's bar or any number of similar foods of your choosing a day
literally half the shit in your supermarket is fortified with B12
It's the cheap meat that has been produced in torture like condition so if the other burgers you eat were from fancy expensive meat where the cows had a half decent life then it's very different from that big mac.
In order to have decent living conditions the meat would have to be a lot more expensive and also there would be a lot less of it.
A lot of the meals people eat would have to be vegetarian. Vegetarian diet is a lot closer to the possible future diet with meat from decent living conditions than the current normal diets are.
>Our survival is ALWAYS at the cost of other life
It's not about survival at the cost of other life it's about cheaper/more meat at the cost of having the animals in torture like conditions.>>26484295
>No longer raising them for food means genocide
No we could just not breed so many new ones when the existing ones get eaten.
Ultimately, the core ethical argument for veganism falls apart when you understand the nature of violence.
Violence is everywhere, it's in everything. Violence is the will being exerted to affect change. Violence is in the seasons shifting, which kills billions of life forms. Violence is in the gelatin in your gummy worms, extracted from the bones of pigs.
Violence is in the blades of combines which harvest your grain, violence is in turning forests into agricultural land so that you might have grain to eat, so that you might have clothes to wear, so that you might have timber to build a home upon yet more land violently wrested from its indigenous animal inhabitants.
So if we accept that violence is indeed everywhere and that simply by existing, man inflicts violence upon the world, the moral vegan must default to the violence minimization ethic. This still falls flat. Knowing that millions of mice, rabbits, and other adorable fuzzy critters are killed by grain harvesting combines each year (not to mention pesticides and the like), if your goal is to minimize violence it should be incumbent upon you to grow all of your own food, or purchase food from people using preindustrial agricultural techniques at a vastly inflated price. Note that 'organic' agriculture still allows for a lot of mechanization, a lot of pesticide use, and a lot of poor land management practices and cannot be considered 'violence minimizing' in the least.
Seeing as no vegan does this, it is clear that vegans are not vegans for ethical reasons. Which is fine, one can be a vegan for health reasons (though a vegan diet is in no way inherently healthier), one can be a vegan for ecological reasons, one can be a vegan simply because they like a certain selection of cute fuzzy animals and don't wish to kill them. But don't pretend that it's because there's something more ethical about veganism as a system.
>But leave everyone else alone.
topkek, it was you who came into this thread spouting misinformation (and even in the quoted post you're still doing it) and criticizing others' life styles m8
We're nog talking about just b12, idiot
Youre also missing out on iron, calcium, vitamin D, creatine and protein ofcourse. And yes, animal protein is of a higher quality than plant protein.
A pack of cheerios is not enough to supplement your poor diet.
>a bunch of supplements
You mean one, or even zero if you eat any of the ridiculous numbers of fortified foods mentioned previously ITT.
Absolutely not. A box of cereal will last you, what, two weeks and is much cheaper than even a few day's worth of meat. Multivitamins are slightly more expensive (than cereal) and can last you months.
To me, popping a pill is certainly more convenient than preparing and cooking meat.
The goal is to reduce violence as much as is realistically possibly while still living a healthy (and even convenient) lifestyle - veganism is perfect for that.
>I can't make a counterpoint so I just greentext
>Animal protein is of a higher quality than plant protein.
Vegans need to eat slightly more plant protein than they would animal protein because of the way it is absorbed (I believe the figure is maybe 5g for the average male). It's not a big deal, especially given that plant protein is cheaper per gram anyway. Everything else you listed is present in vegetables and supplements.
So your primary goal is to reduce violence, but only when it is convenient for you to do so? When it is 'realistic' to do so?
So typical of a new age pseudo-philosophy. "We do the right thing when the right thing is easy to do."
How inspiring. I'm sure this stuff will be right up there with Aristotle one day.
Ofcourse you can survive without meat, but it's not healthy. Thats what were talking about you dense fuck.
Your diner doesnt consist of just a multivitamin. Its something you have to do on the side so no its not a convenience.
That amount of protein is nowhere near enough for someone who lives a healthy life. Maybe for someone who is completely sedentary. But youre trying to say vegans are healthy so you should be active.
And that small amount of fat is unhealthy. You need animal fat for a good hormone regulation.
Well, that was pointless. It says essentially the exact same thing as what I had already posted.
>If you're at a healthy weight, you don't lift weights and you don't exercise much, then aiming for 0.36 to 0.6 grams per pound (or 0.8 to 1.3 gram per kg) is a reasonable estimate.
>This amounts to:
>56-91 grams per day for the average male.
Again, good effort derailing the argument. This argument has nothing to do with my personal health, and that was a quote from the page you posted. You still haven't provided any contradictory information to what I originally posted, and I don't think you're going to.
I just refuted your argument, linked you an article backing my argument up with facts and you obviously dont know what youre talking about. You're talking about whats best for your health yet you live a sedentary life.
>I just refuted your argument, linked you an article backing my argument up with facts
What was your argument and what were the specific facts that supported it? I found nothing in that article that refuted what I had already posted, and in fact found information there that backed up what I had said.
>you obviously dont know what youre talking about
>You're talking about whats best for your health yet you live a sedentary life.
I won't rise to this, since you don't know anything about my life and this argument is about veganism, rather than me personally.
>My article was a response to your article regarding the amount of protein needed, which was wrong.
It wasn't, though. They both said essentiallu the same thing about minimum protein requirements. I even posted a quote from your article reflecting this. Regardless, that wouldn't be an argument against veganism, as protein exists in plants, too.
>All of you giving a shit what people eat
>Thinking you're any manlier eating a steak over a salad
>Realize you come to this board no matter what your diet is
>You're just as shitty as the guy who comes here and prefers to not eat animals.
Your article advised a low amount of protein. My article quickly refuted this by mentioning that that might be the bare minimum for a sedentary man in order to not get sick. We're talking about a healthy life here, not barely living.
Again, your article actually concludes by saying the exact same thing as mine did about how much protein the average person needs in order to be healthy. When it claimed earlier in the article that this was a bare minimum (obviously a contradiction, given that the author clearly changed their mind by the end of the article) it provided no explanation of why or any sources to back it up. Instead it makes the vague suggestion that "it turns out that the 'right' amount of protein for any one individual depends on many factors," which is of course true, but does not contradict anything that has been said by me.
I had a feeling I was talking with a 13-year-old.
Wrong. The article actually says its barely enough for a sedentary man who doesnt give a fuck about health to begin with. Then the article recommends a higher amount of protein for active people, which is 0.86g/lbs bodyweight. And this is animal protein, not plant protein that lacks amino acids.
>Numerous studies have tried to determine the optimal amount of protein for muscle gain and many of them have reached different conclusions.
>Some studies show that over 0.8 grams per pound has no benefit
Sounds very conclusive. Again, you'll note that they don't follow suit with this in the conclusion (that's the section at the end).
Exactly, multiple studies show that you need much more protein than what your article implied. Up to 0.86g/lb bodyweight is the optimal amount of animal protein for a healthy human being. Plant protein just wont make the cut.
Also worth noting that your article says that getting all of your amino acids from plant protein is more difficult (which was my original point, if you remember), but links to the following article to show how easily it can actually be done in practice:
This article you hold so dearly doesn't seem to align with your conclusion that "plant protein just wont make the cut."
As someone who actually researched the topic before choosing to be vegetarian, humans dont actually have the ability to break down animal protein becuase our bodies are similar to that of a herbivore
Thats exactly what it says actually. You didnt read it correctly. And 0.86g is the exact amount if youre wondering. Also the whole article is about animal protein. Did you not read the part about protein quality and amino acids? Plant protein is inferior to animal protein for optimal health.
It's not. I posted a direct quote, you posted your interpretation. The article you posted has separate sections based on completely different studies that don't necessarily align with each other.
Humans, as a group, to not engage in immoral behavior. Murder etc are immoral precisely BECAUSE they are innately revolting. Deviant members engaging in deviancy is no proof that the natural is anything less than moral. Indeed, to argue for a moral system that prohibits natural human behavior, that is, to argue for a "moral system" that is unarguably inhumane, is both absurd and abhorrent.
>b-but muh utilitarianism!
Carnivorism is perfectly compatible with Positive Utilitarianism, and Negative Utilitarianism (from which vegfags derive their "morality") is ludicrously grotesque, as Smart put it:
"Suppose that a ruler controls a weapon capable of instantly and painlessly destroying the [world]. Now it is empirically certain that there would be some suffering before all those alive on any proposed destruction day were to die in the natural course of events. Consequently the use of the weapon is bound to diminish suffering, and would be the ruler's duty on NU grounds."
We see then that veganism is the not merely the subjection of the moral for the amoral, but the subjection of the moral for the immoral. The Vegan is shown to be either a monstrous degenerate who wishes to extinguish Life itself, or simpleton you doesn't understand the philosophical underpinnings of their 'morality'.
>Tempeh and tofu doesnt provide a good amount of essential acids compared to meat.
They also aren't the only sources of plant protein. Anyway, while we're on the topic, it would be nice to hear your explanation of amino acids, their importance and why, apparently, plant-based protein isn't sufficient, but I have a feeling you don't actually know what you're talking about.
>to argue for a moral system that prohibits natural human behavior
There's nothing natural about our meat industry. Humans seem to be revolted almost universally when they actually see footage of what goes on there.
That is literally the very first point that *I* made in this argument, but I also posted a source showing that this can be countered with a marginal increase in the amount of plant protein consumed compared to the amount of animal protein that needs to be consumed. The fact that plant protein is less efficient doesn't make it insufficient.
Amino acids are the building blocks of our body. We need amino acids for muscle, tendons, bones, skin, cells. You simply cannot get a good amount of amino acids from plants without consuming an absurd amount of tofu.
Meat is better is every way.
Today I smelled myself in the morning and was so impressed with the sweet porky odor I thought about becoming a cannibal. I have really good hygiene and a optimal intestinal environment, however.
Just depends what I'm in the mood for, usually fruit.
>You simply cannot get a good amount of amino acids from plants without consuming an absurd amount of tofu.
What to they do specifically? Why can't we get them from plants? Why do you mention tofu specifically? This all seems very vague.
>what are nuts, beans and soy
even grain has a reasonable amount of protein
the average person consumes way too much protein and it's not hard to get enough from only plant based food
if all else fails you can always get some protein powder
It is insufficient actually. For my active lifestyle that is. I want the optimal amount of nutrients from a balanced diet.
I dont live a sedentary life and neither should you. So as a vegan either your diet is unhealthy or your whole lifestyle is u healthy to begin with.
>There's nothing natural about our meat industry
That's not an argument for veganism, and also rests on a NU a priori belief that suffering should be eliminated, which as the rest of my post clearly illiterates is a grotesque absurdity.
>It is insufficient actually. For my active lifestyle that is.
No source, again.
We seem to be going in circles, so I'll remind you that there is no finite amount of plant protein that can be eaten. When you are active, you eat more than the minimum requirement of protein proportionate to your activity. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Read the post again you idiot. You have failed to read.
Not enough. Ofcourse its technically possible to get a sufficient amount of amino acids from plants but in reality it rarely happens. With meat its much easier to get your amino acids.
>Meatfags get this butthurt over someone else's dietary choices
>Turn around and complain that vegetarians / vegans are the obnoxious ones
Boy, you guys sure told them. I've never had anyone try to push vegetarianism on me, but even a casual mention of the subject results in dozens of meatfags foaming at the mouth over something that doesn't affect them in any conceivable way.
Is this some kind of false flag, or are you guys really this retarded?
You cant just demand a source for every thing that i say. Why dont you start giving me sources that refute what i said? Thats because you cant. You fail to refute my arguments.
And good luck eating plants until you got all the amino acids needed. I promise you you wont be able to do that.
I can read, you just can't explain. Your points lack depth because you don't actually know what you're talking about. You just skimmed one of the first few articles that came up on Google.
You're interpreting veganism as a movement that's purely about the general reduction of suffering, when it's actually about reducing suffering caused by oneself.
As you pointed out, activities we consider immoral are immoral because they are innately revolting. If I publicly killed an animal, I imagine that would be revolting to most who saw it, the same way it is revolting to see the practices of the meat industry. The only times these activities are not considered immoral are when they are done out of necessity (which does not apply, since we do not need animal products to survive).
I can, actually. You came into this argument responding to a point that I made that already had a source to back it up. The onus is on you to find information that contradicts it.
Not that guy, but read through this:
You seem to have a fundamentally flawed understanding of how amino acids work and where they appear in food.
video is well sourced and explains it in the first 50 seconds
the difference in protein consumption is minor and the average vegan is nowhere near a deficiency
I will give you that it's easier to become deficient as a vegan but broccoli, nuts and spinach contain almost as much protein as meat so if you watch what you're eating there is a lot more than enough protein to go by
Ive been balls deep in the fitness/diet world for 4 years now. I know exactly what im talking about actually. Sounds like you just dont understand and today is the first time you hear the word aminoacid.
And no, my article already refuted your article. Your article recommends a low amount of low quality protein which is obviously unhealthy. Luckily my article quickly refuted this.
First off thats a vegan biased website.
And sexond thats about fatty acids. You have no idea what were talking about
This is straight up wrong. Its much MUCH easier to get quality protein from meat
We've had this conversation. The recommendation was a minimum - a minimum which your article agreed upon. When you are active (as you should be) you need more than the minimum. This can be achieved with animal or plant protein. A complete set of amino acids are present in animal protein, but only in a select few plant proteins (like quinoa). However, combining different plant proteins allows for a complete set of amino acids to be consumed.
Beyond the points I've already covered in this post (and not for the first time in this thread), there's nothing else particularly substantial about your argument. Is there anything else you'd like to add?
>This is straight up wrong.
what part is wrong?
you can look up the nutrients values of broccoli and spinach if you like and I better hope you have some iron clad arguments against the largest study on this ever made
Congrats on not reading it. The URL mistakenly says fatty acids, but the article talks about amino acids. I'm sure you'd struggle to actually explain why that article might be biased based on its content, but since this information is so widespread I'll happily link you to an alternative source:
Exactly. You wont get all the amino acids you need from plant food. And to get enough of them you would need to eat a ridiculous amount of different kind of plants. Or you could just eat meat and get literally all you need.
Complete, and plenty of protein
It is much better, easier and cheaper than eating tons of plants and supplemental pills.
Broccoli contains 3 grams of protein per 100 grams. Spinach contains 2.5g.
You would need to eat about 2 kilograms or 4.4lbs of broccoli to get the same amount of protein as a piece of meat. This is absolutely retarded.
You continue to wilfully ignore information given to you and make ridiculous claims based on absolutely nothing.
> You wont get all the amino acids you need from plant food
Yes you will, if you're not literally eating one type of plant. I've already linked you a source, but just in case you missed it, read this: http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/105/25/e197.full
It is actually incredibly difficult *not* to get all of your amino acids when you eat a variety of plant-based foods.
>And to get enough of them you would need to eat a ridiculous amount of different kind of plants
Again, this is categorically incorrect. Even the article you previously posted yourself contradicts this statement, and you've provided no other sources that come even slightly close to making such an extreme claim.
>tons of plants and supplemental pills
I want to post a laughing pepe but it's just getting fucking old at this point
Holy shit, you really don't get it, do you? The point is to eat a variety of plant proteins, not just one. That way you get all of your amino acids. As for the overall grams of protein, of course you're not going to get it from just broccoli - beans and grains are much higher in protein, and a mixture will provide all of your amino acids and the right amount of overall protein you need. The point is that broccoli covers eight of the amino acids.
Yes, you can. The article I linked to you points out just how easy it is, while you have nothing to back your ridiculous claims up. At this point I'm going to assume you've deferred to trolling.
This is only true if you sit behind a computer all day. Which is what most vegans do because their diet doesnt give them the nutrients to be active. Instead they stay inside all day arguing about veganism on the internet for hours
Get rekt kid
you guys keep arguing hypotheticals you think sort of makes sense based on you never having spent more than a few moments of thought on it instead of looking at actual data which is very conclusive, vegetarians along with everyone else get more than enough protein
actual study is boring to read so just watch the first 45 seconds of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m4p8s7xskQ
I still eat both vegetables and meat, but
>tfw meat lover's/pepperoni pizzas are absolutely disgusting now
>tfw I'll go for the vegetarian pizza if there isn't one with everything/supreme pizzas
As I get older I find the idea of piles of meat kind of unpleasant. When I was a kid I'd make sure to have a meat component in every meal, but now I don't particularly care if I've only got vegetables on my plate. I'd like to think it's about moderation; I don't think I could ever go vegetarian but I definitely don't eat meat as much as I used to.
Unless I'm having hot pot, in which case I'm getting a pound of sliced fatty beef to myself.
>Get rekt kid
I can only assume that someone who speaks like this is an American living off of Mountain Dew and processed meats. You're in no position to talk about health or computer-based activity, given that you've been here arguing with me this whole time.
I tried really hard to find anything constructive in your post but i cant find anything. This is an empty post without facts or arguments. This is nothing but flaming.
So here you go, an empty post right back at ya. You fat fucking autist! Die!
You like that? Lets do this for a couple of hours!
I just don't like meat and I am kind of a tree huger so I stopped eating it. Also I have this really weird thing where I see girls that eat meat as disgusting so it just makes things easier if I am also vegetarian.
Not the guy you replied to, but thanks for posting that video. I actually had no idea about the fibre problem, but just checked my intake and apparently it's well over the requirement at 60g (on a vegan diet). I'm guessing this fibre issue isn't promoted as much as the non-existent protein deficiency issue because the meat industry doesn't have anything at stake there.
The funny thing is that you think you're being intentionally obtuse with these posts, but there's actually very little difference between these and anything you've said previously in terms of substance.
>Do you realize that when lifting weights you need around 1g protein per pound of bodyweight? Are you aware that this is nearly impossible on a vegan diet?
It's actually pretty easy, especially if you eat a lot of beans, tofu and grains. Maybe more difficult if you don't allow for protein supplements, but remember even omnivorous weightlifters take protein supplements.
Well you wouldn't go around killing and eating literal tards (or I guess this is 4chan so maybe you would), there are humans dumber than pigs which aren't eaten or killed simply because we have an easier time relating to them.
Right, and the video pointed out that omnivores, vegetarians and vegans all eat generally the same amount of protein anyway, so the issue of needing to eat more when you're more active applies to everyone.
While I don't do it myself I could see why some vegans would be vocal about it since they see it as some horrible animal holocaust that has been going on since forever which needs to stop immediately. While I don't agree with them I can see why the do it. On the flip side, meat eaters do it because generally people don't like people who stick out, especially if they're doing something which many see as "better".
Wrong. You must be new. I actually linked approved studies that directly refuted the central point. A vegan diet doesnt come close to a balanced diet in terms of efficiency, health and money.
And its actually extremely hard to get the protein and amino acids as a vegan that is trying to build muscle. Vegans often fail in bodybuilding for this reason.
>Why should we stop?
Because nowadays we are advanced enough to survive on not eating meat. Let's face it, eating meat is far from optimal and as long as you have a basic grasp on nutrition the only reason to eat meat is
Even though meat is far from needed to make a tasty dish
bodybuilding is not the same as just being active
bodybuilders need pretty extreme diets that would probably be really hard to meet as a vegan admittedly
that's simply false
vegans get almost exactly as much protein as nonvegetarians
>Consuming milk and eggs doesnt hurt animals at all
Have you ever wondered what they do with the male chickens, the ones that don't lay eggs? The suffocate, grind them, or gas them to death en mass. That's pretty fucking brutal.
Actually i have to say the exact same thing over and over again because you keep bringing the same thing up and fail to understand what i say. My post is directly correcting what you just said. Youre extremely dense. Holy crap youre stupid.
>pretending to fall for the protein meme
nice try shill
I eat nearly 100g of protein all the fucking time just because I casually eat beans, peas, nuts, soymilk, etc. It's not even a goal.
it's such a fucking joke, it's not hard to hit bodybuilding macros on any type of diet.
>almost exactly as much
This is what people say when they know they're losing an argument, but still want to save a shred of intellectual honesty by not misrepresenting facts. Nice try, carrot-top!
No, it's actually factually correct based on the video he posted earlier.
How so? Veganism is a response to the now-widespread availability of a variety plant proteins (at least for Western people) and the ability to get nutrients like B12 in supplement form. Veganism does not argue that killing animals is inherently wrong, rather that it is wrong when there is an alternative. Modernity has provided that alternative.
That's obviously an oversimplified outlook. Historically not every plant has been readily available for consumption the way they are today, and again that ignores B12 which historically has only been consumed through animal products.
Youre referring to the mass industry. But literally milking a cow and drinking it doesnt hurt her. Taking an egg from a chicken doesnt hurt her. If you want to discuss the living conditions of animals in the mass industry, go ahead. But thats not what he said.
literally perfect diet. go vegan-ize yourself now. for more info google dr mcdougall if you wanna venture into fine workings of human biology. forks over knives documentary works too. youre on a good path, op.
Nobody cares and here you are. Again.
If you dont want to eat meat, go ahead. But shut up about it.
You make vegans look bad just like how atheists look bad now. You just cant go a day without telling people youre vegan.
Same, I try to eat less meat. My parents always have meat as their main food for dinner but I don't think it's very healthy, since they mostly eat red meats over stuff like poultry.
I also stopped buying cow's milk and get unsweetened almond milk instead. Dairy gives me breakouts anyway so it doesn't feel like a huge loss.
Kill yourself you bipolar fuck. I would love to kill you. Would love to bash your fucking head in with an axe and piss on your dead corpse. I would definitely kill you if i got the chance.
Organic animal products means the animals were treated humanely
Check these links to learn more about organic milk and eggs.
>causes heart decease, cancer, gastrointestinal disease, usually high in calories and is in conjunction with milk and eggs the reason for the current obesity rate (check out the china study)
>animal agriculture destroys the environment along with overfishing (check out Cowspiracy)
>It disregards the suffering of animals, drastically shortened lifespans, confined living areas, constant breeding until death, breeding to achieve muscle masses that the animal itself cannot support and which either cause it immense pain or kill it. (watch earthlings)
From whichever way you approach it its the most logical thing to remove from your diet.
Good resourse if you still have a few particular doubts: http://yourveganfallacyis.com/en
Shut the fuck up bitch. If you wanna be a bloke be a bloke. Square up then faggot. Square the fuck up.
I want to cut your arms and legs off and watch you slowly bleed to death like a bitch.
Being a vegetarian/vegan is like self-castration.
Yes, every single reason you can think of to promote vegetarianism can also be used to defend the benefits of castrating yourself.
>the cattle industry is unsustainable and causing a ton of pollution
overpopulation is unsustainable and causing a ton of pollution
>you can take vitamins and supplements to get a balanced diet
you can take testosterone supplements to stop yourself from becoming female
>eating meat causes health problems
sex causes health problems, and the desire for sex causes aggression
>its cruel towards animals
sex and relationships are cruel too, they can be downright abusive, resulting in psychological and physical trauma
>just because you have meat eating teeth doesn't mean you should use them. You need to overcome your primal urges
just because you have a dick doesn't mean you should use it. You need to overcome your primal urges.
You guys can cuckold yourself out of eating meat, and talk about all the wonderful health benefits you're enjoying, and how you're helping the planet, but I want to keep my dick and fuck some pussy.
any time an animal or person is treated like a commodity their well being become second to profits.
we'll never be free of human caused cruelty and suffering until we get rid of this idea but thats more just my general idea towards it.
actually the majority of 'organic' producers still confine the animals and treat them generally like shit it's the same thing under another name since they use different feed and often withhold antibiotics for cows and pigs with infections (which usually kill the animal but the extra you spend on the organic label more than make up for it) 'free range' chickens are still shoved together side to side under large sheet metal enclosures were they kind of just sit there in their own shit until they are killed, plenty suffocate too if the neurological issues from overbreeding certain traits don't cause them to fall over and get trampled. don't get me started on how they literally shred every male chick as soon as it hatches.
that and the whole forceful insemination of cows and removal of the calf immediately after birth to spend its life chained up and held down so the little muscle it has doesn't develop really made me second guess the whole idea that this even on a small scale is ok
like it's better for your health and your not being an asshole to animals by valuing a momentary pleasure of yours over their life.
Been vegetarian since 13, vegan since 18. I'm 22, now.
It's nice for the animals, the environment, makes me feel pretty good about myself, and I've never been this healthy. My teeth are healthier (mostly because I dropped a lot of bad dietary habits when going vegan), I put on muscle easier than ever, my skin is better than ever, and I have more energy. Could just be a coincidence because I went vegan when I became an adult, but whatever.
Regardless, it's healthy and doesn't require animals to die. Why wouldn't any sane person go vegan?
>people getting butthurt because other people don't want to kill animals
You can tell these fuckers KNOW that being vegan is the right choice. Why else would they get mad for someone not hurting someone else?
>went vegan around 2 years ago
>sweat started not to smell
>never feel shitty after a meal
>already skinny b/c parents made healthy food but feel lighter/quicker
>gave me energy to start working out
>getting fit, feels good
if anything this has done wonders to my self esteem and confidence and everyone I take back to my apt loves the food so ehh not too bad!
>wanting to hurt this iddy-biddy face
Meat-eaters not even once
Well yes, but part of life is hurting or taking from others, you can only choose who. You can't stop it. In fact, plants could very well feel pain too. I would kill you if you touched my pets but yes I have worked as a butcher.
you seem to think that I'm comparing two completely arbitrary things when I'm not.
Both of these involve abstaining from something (meat eating and sex), and address the same issues (cruelty towards others, individual health, pollution, overcoming basic instincts) in the same exact manner, with the exact same results (improved personal health, improved worldwide health, improved morals).
Sorry you didn't catch all that. You're probably indoctrinated super hard into your life style by now.
Well make anti smoking thread and a anti drinking thread then, you will get the same result. In reality in real life nobody cares, it's the fact your making a thread and telling people that is annoying. Also, you feel you are somehow better than others, sorry kid, your not.
>Humans have eyes on the front of the head because we are hunters and it allows us to track prey easier.
Actually, humans have eyes on the front of their head because humans are primates, and all primates have eyes on the front of their head. 99% of what a primate eats is herbivorous. So why do primates have eyes at the front of their heads? Because they can turn their head 180 degrees. You can stand still, but turn your head, and see a whole 360 degrees around you. But any other animal would not be able to see directly behind them. Not to mention we hold our food when we eat it, as opposed to eating it from the plants directly.
>Humans also can't naturally digest fruit and vegetables, we rely on the bacteria in our intestines to do it for us.
What's your point? All animals rely on bacteria.
>There you go, 2 evolutionary reasons not to be vegan
We have a herbivore's set of teeth.
We are slow, weak, and frail.
There you go, 2 evolutionary reasons to not eat meat.
>heart attacks kill 40% of the population
>meat increases the risk of a heart attack
>vegans are slightly more likely to become deficient in B12
>no one has ever died of B12 deficiency unless they were already starving
Yeah being vegan is really dangerous, guys!
No not really. I know it happens to dogs cats and horses too. Isnt any different from cows and chickens.
I would be pretty pissed if it happened to my dog though, just like i would be pissed if it happened to my cow. Because thats mine, you know
>but if they have to suffer or die so that i can have delicious meat thats in no way wrong.
naturalistic fallacy + it is completely wrong to make someone/thing suffer when you don't need to
not even vegan
>Well yes, but part of life is hurting or taking from others, you can only choose who
It's also a part of life to die from aids, cancer, heart disease, brain tumors, and so on. So I guess you don't want to make cures for them because it's a part of life, right?
> In fact, plants could very well feel pain too
Not really. Based on today's science, there is a 0% chance they can feel pain. They lack any traits that are associated with consciousness.
>I would kill you if you touched my pets but yes I have worked as a butcher
But what if people kill ANY dog, ANY cat, or ANY horse? Does that piss you off?
>Also, you feel you are somehow better than others, sorry kid, your not.
But, I am. At least, I most likely am. I don't kill animals. You do. Based on that alone, I am a better person than you by far.
What are you going to do, next? Say that Gandhi is not a better person than Hitler?
Fuck off. You are just getting salty because you are getting called out on the horrible things you do. Either go vegan, or accept that you are doing horrible things and that you are a bad person for it. Don't start trying to have your cake and eat it.
I like eating meat and I don't really give a shit about the lives of animals. As long as you only eat a reasonable amount it's unlikely it will significantly effect your health. Is this a good enough argument?
consensual loving sex with contraception = perf for the environment and personal emotional/physical health
but your argument rests on the basis that meat is AS bad as sex or relationships CAN be?
your stretching real fucking far if you want to make that connection and you'd only do that if you had no real intention of defending sex abstention on any logical ground.
Point is that Meat will give you cancer or a variety of other health problems even at the level of an average american
Is has caused immense and undeniable cruelty (many factory farm vids and 1st hand articles on this)
and it does undoubtedly destroy the environment just see the greenhouse gas emissions for animal agriculture.
>i dont want anyone to hurt my animals
And that's because they have a personality, right? I have pet donkeys and dogs, and I love them all individually. They all have their own quirks, tricks, and personalities. I have grown attached to them. Because of that, I would not want any dogs or donkeys to be hurt, because I understand how special and unique each and every one is.
So why do you not do the same? You sound like you love animals (most people do), so if you can see that cows are just as unique and special as dogs can be, why do you still eat meat?
>As long as you only eat a reasonable amount it's unlikely it will significantly effect your health
One sec let me fix that for you
>Eating a small amount of poison is not dangerous
Yes, it is. For example, every bit of meat you eat has bad cholesterol in. That will stick to your circulatory system, and it will take time to come off. That could mean the difference between having a heart attack, and not having a heart attack.
It's exponential. So eating 2 pounds of steak is more than twice as bad as eating 1 pound of steak. But that doesn't mean the 1 pound of steak is harmless.
>Veganism is often a result of utilitarianism.
So, it's logically unfounded.
>The goal is to reduce violence as much as is realistically possibly while still living a healthy (and even convenient) lifestyle - veganism is perfect for that.
Why is that a good thing though?
>Even though meat is far from needed to make a tasty dish
Except it is for the majority of cuisine.
Atheists and vegans have always been bad and selfish.
>Why is that a good thing though?
Why is what a good thing? Not being unhealthy and hurting animals? errr idk lol maybe because being healthy means you live longer, and not hurting animals means animals feel less pain and the world becomes a better place.
>Except it is for the majority of cuisine.
Not really. Potatoes, rice, and pasta are used for the majority of cuisine. You can't really replace them. But meat? Just use meat substitutes. Problem solved. Taste the same. No issues.
>Atheists and vegans have always been bad and selfish.
How are vegans selfish? By not hurting animals?
>meat is automatically poison
Humans are omnivores, not herbivores. Pretty much any meat that involved a factory at some point in it's production is terrible for you, but that applies to everything not just meat.
No, i dont want people to hurt my animals because thats my property. Just like i dont want people to damage my car. I pay for my dog so ofcourse i would be pissed. But not because i have an emotional bond or whatever youre on about.
You can do it, man! I have made a load of my friends go vegan, and it's a piece of piss. I'm a sick cunt, so I just went vegan immediately, but I get that some people find it harder.
Start swapping foods out, a week at a time. Start off with cheese. Buy some vegan cheeses (some are pretty disgusting, but eventually you find one that is perfect. I spent years trying out different vegan cheeses until I got the right one), and then you can replace cheese. Then do milk. Like thick milk? Try soy milk. Like thin milk? Try hazelnut, coconut, oat, or rice milk. Like milk inbetween thin and thick? Try Almond. I like almond the most, with hazelnut a close second.
Wanna swap meat? Easy-peasy. Buy some vegan versions of meat. Some can be expensive, but there is an easy work-around -- get products that are not marketed towards vegans. I can get a box of Linda McCartney vegan sausages for 3 GBP per box. But I can get store-brand "vegetable burgers" for 1 GBP per box.
Just do it one step at a time. You can do it you piece of shit! Just set yourself one product to avoid at a time, and when you feel comfortable without that animal product, start on another one.
>I'm considering going vegan. I see it as the most logical course of action, given the ethical and environmental, and potentially health benefits.
You're probably right but since I have no interest in ethics this is irrelevant to me. In all honesty I'd probably eat you and your family if given the opportunity to do so with impunity.
Environmentally veganism is a sound, logical choice. But as I do not care, this is, again irrelevant to me.
>Humans are omnivores, not herbivores
Really? Our anatomy is entirely herbivorous, and we live longer on a herbivorous diet. How are we omnivores? I'm pretty athletic (vegan diet, yo), and I can't catch a rabbit, a dog, a deer, or a horse. But I can catch apples.
>Pretty much any meat that involved a factory at some point in it's production is terrible for you
And so is lean meat. Did you not hear the WHO announcement about meat? Red meats, processed or not, are nearly equally likely to cause cancer. Whether it's processed or not means basically nothing.
>but that applies to everything not just meat
Not at all. Processed meats tend to be much lower quality, and have higher concentrations of carcinogens and cholesterol, but the same is not true for vegan foods. You can buy the most processed sack of shit vegan food there is, and it will not have any bad cholesterol in at all. That's just one example, but there are many more.
>I don't want someone to hurt my dog. Not because I love my dog, but because it's my dog and I paid for it
if you want to reduce animal suffering by not killing/eating them that's great. if you don't want to support factory-farmed meat because it's bad for everyone/thing involved that's great.
but don't kid yourself about humans not being evolved to eat meat or how eating meat is inherently unhealthy. humans are definitely hunters, and we have evolved to eat plant and animal foods. If you eat animals that lived and ate like they're meant to (e.g. wild animals, or pastured, grass-fed cows) then that is healthy food. good animal products are nutrient rich.
don't get me wrong, the average diet today in america and a lot of countries is so shit that you can eat a smart, veg(etari)an diet and still be healthier than the average meat eater. but an optimally nutritious diet contains some animal products, even if it's not a lot.
>id guess you were beaten, bullied and/or sexually molested as a child
Then I guess you won't win a prize.
I had a fairy tale American dream upbringing and I still poisoned the class bunny in first grade. Nice armchair psychology though, surprise the world has people who don't fit into your view of things. Enjoy the rest of your life with that knowledge.
>but don't kid yourself about humans not being evolved to eat meat
Haha yeah because we are so fast and strong and have thick skin, right? I love how sharp our teeth are and how we have long sharp claws perfect for mauling animals to death.
It's great that we can eat raw meat without getting sick, too! Perfect for a lean killing machine. I just got back from hunting a pack of rabbits down bare-handed. I didn't need fancy tools to kill the rabbits, I just bit their fucking heads off.
>or how eating meat is inherently unhealthy
But, it is you idiot. I have done a lot of searching around, and I am still unable to find a single vegan food (processed shit or not) that has a single molecule of bad cholesterol in. There exists no vegan who has arterial plaque, as cholesterol is a necessary ingredient of that. And guess what kills nearly 50% of people in the west? Heart attacks. So don't tell me meat is not inherently bad when it directly contributes to the leading cause of death.
>humans are definitely hunters, and we have evolved to eat plant and animal foods
Then where is our speed? Our strength?
>If you eat animals that lived and ate like they're meant to (e.g. wild animals, or pastured, grass-fed cows) then that is healthy food. good animal products are nutrient rich.
"healthy meat" still has animal proteins, hormones, fats, and (most importantly) cholesterol in. So, no, it's not healthy at all, really.
>but an optimally nutritious diet contains some animal products, even if it's not a lot.
Why's that? What does meat give us that we need?
Why are you greentexting that like its wrong? Pets are pets and nothing more. Theyre not part of your family, you dont bond with them, nothing. The only thing that would bond you and your dog is because you give him food. Thats it.
yeah I sincerely doubt you had a normal upbringing with close relations and frienships.
Cant really trust someone who says theyre a psychopath as you could be lying to me just to make a point
>Not being unhealthy and hurting animals? errr idk lol maybe because being healthy means you live longer, and not hurting animals means animals feel less pain and the world becomes a better place.
That's not an argument, it's 'muh feelings'
I see now that you've never cooked before.
>How are vegans selfish? By not hurting animals?
Self-serving and self-righteousness is, by definition, selfish.
No argument; typical of atheists and vegans.
>Theyre not part of your family, you dont bond with them, nothing. The only thing that would bond you and your dog is because you give him food. Thats it.
No offense, man, but it sounds like you have aspergers. Even babies can bond with animals. So it sounds to me like your emotional intelligence is on-par, if not worse-than, a baby's.
>yeah I sincerely doubt you had a normal upbringing with close relations and frienships.
Well that is interesting. I'm actually willing to bet most people probably think that way.
I'm not super interested in making any points. I've said what I felt like saying, take it or leave it.
>but our canines would actually be a lot sharper if we didn't consume so many shitty chemicals that wore away at them.
Mine look the same as the day I got them. They point down a little lower than my front two incisors, but they're hardly sharp. People say I have proper vampire teeth, too. But they look nothing like a bear's canine teeth (actual omnivorous teeth). They're too broad to be sharp.
Why do vegans harp so specifically on meat? People willingly consume a lot of other things that are practically poison because they enjoy it but somehow meat is worse than everything else.
>That's not an argument, it's 'muh feelings'
What's wrong with basing an argument on feelings? I feel like I want to live long and not cause anyone else pain and suffering.
If I said I was going to kill your mom, you would say "but i love my mom dont do that". You wouldn't say "okay then mate kill my mom. After-all, it's only 'muh feelins'".
>I see now that you've never cooked before.
Made a vegan cake earlier today. It's well tasty. Didn't need any eggs. For dinner I had a roast with veggie sausages instead of any meat. Had extra broccoli and carrots too so I can be big and strong like a gorilla.
>Self-serving and self-righteousness is, by definition, selfish.
I suppose vegans can't help but be self-serving. It's great for their health! But the important part is that it helps animals.
And if you look at the definition of self-righteous, it is when someone believes theirself to be righteous when they are not. Vegans are, as they are going against the grain of society to do something good in the world. They are, by definition, not self-righteous.
I'm not into the ethics shit but I actually like vegans more than omnivores and here's why: less bullshit.
If a vegan refuses to eat any animal products at all I can respect that commitment even though I think it's silly.
If an omnivore says eating dogs is horrible whilst chomping on a burger I can't help but roll my eyes.
Meat is meat, if it's tasty I'm eating it, but that's just my not so humble opinion.
>Why do vegans harp so specifically on meat? People willingly consume a lot of other things that are practically poison because they enjoy it but somehow meat is worse than everything else.
Because if someone smokes, they only hurt themselves. If someone eats meat, they hurt the environment, the animals, themselves, and even global food supplies.
There is simply a whole lot more to get mad about.
well therer are two reasons for a behaviour. Either its genetic or learnt. Its a really low chance its completely genetic, probably a genetically prodisposed behaviour triggered by something horrible in your upbringing.
But I find it unlikely that it should be 100% genetic
For company, and because kids (and you) can play with them. I can understand how youre agaunst unnecessary animal cruelty but emotionally attaching to a dog is pretty retarded.
And yes i do have aspergers. Did i just catch you playing the old ad hominem card? You know that doesnt count right?
I just went vegan a week ago after discovering NutritionFacts YouTube channel.
Always believed it was wrong to kill animals though.
Dr Gregor shits on every single nutrition wannabe expert.
This is the sort of meat-eater I can respect.
Someone who says, "yeah eating animal products is killing me, killing the animals, and killing the planet. BUT FUCK IT I like eating what I eat". And you've got the double-whammy of hating hypocritical meat-eaters who pick-and-choose what animals they will and will not eat.
I like you.
>What's wrong with basing an argument on feelings? I feel like I want to live long and not cause anyone else pain and suffering.
It's dishonest and unobjective.
>If I said I was going to kill your mom, you would say "but i love my mom dont do that". You wouldn't say "okay then mate kill my mom.
No? Why are you projecting?
>Made a vegan cake earlier today.
And a bunch of other disgusting food.
>It's great for their health! But the important part is that it helps animals.
Why are either of these things good?
I don't think you know how arguing works.
>Vegans are, as they are going against the grain of society to do something good in the world
Why is that 'good'?
I have yet to see a single argument. I'll disregard you now, since you are a blatant troll or genuinely just a child who can't handle sound logic.
>For company, and because kids (and you) can play with them
When you put it like that, all bonding is the exact same. I bonded with my mother because she gave me company and food. Do you not bond with family because they only give you company and entertainment?
>I can understand how youre agaunst unnecessary animal cruelty but emotionally attaching to a dog is pretty retarded.
Why is it? I like bonding with animals. They enjoy it, and I enjoy it. No one gets hurt, and we are all better-off for it. Eating meat, on the other hand, is very retarded. It kills you and the animal. That's bad.
>And yes i do have aspergers. Did i just catch you playing the old ad hominem card?
No. But it does mean your entire argument makes sense.
>if someone smokes they only hurt themselves
Do you know what second hand smoke is?
And I don't just mean drugs, cigarettes, alcohol. All processed foods are terrible and hurt the environment, animal products or not. We all know it's bad for us, but you rarely hear some pretentious fuck going on about "you're eating a bag of potato chips? You're literally poisoning yourself and the planet you ignorant retard".
I like Neal Barnard the most. He's pretty funny.
>It's dishonest and unobjective.
How is it dishonest and unobjective to not eat animals because you like animals and don't want to die young? That is very honest, and very objective.
>No? Why are you projecting?
So it's unobjective and dishonest to not kill animals because you like them, but it's perfectly objective and honest to not kill your mother because you like her?
>And a bunch of other disgusting food.
Are you calling cake disgusting? It's well tasty mate.
>Why are either of these things good?
Because living long and making the world a better place for everyone else is pretty much the most noble thing anyone can do.
>Why is that 'good'?
Because making the world a better place is obviously good. Less suffering in the world is fantastic.
>Do you know what second hand smoke is?
Then it only hurts you, and slightly hurts people in your vicinity. Still not nearly as bad as meat.
>And I don't just mean drugs, cigarettes, alcohol. All processed foods are terrible and hurt the environment, animal products or not. We all know it's bad for us, but you rarely hear some pretentious fuck going on about "you're eating a bag of potato chips? You're literally poisoning yourself and the planet you ignorant retard".
But potato chips only hit 1/4 of the things I mentioned, and not nearly as hard.
They are bad for you (but not as bad as meat).
They are not bad for the environment at all, aside from maybe the packaging.
They don't hurt global food supplies.
They don't hurt animals.
Again, there is just a lot less to get mad about.
>How is it dishonest and unobjective to not eat animals because you like animals and don't want to die young? That is very honest, and very objective.
No it's not, it's devoid of any logical ground.
The rest of your post is just more dishonesty. You'd better be a troll; no one old enough to post here, or hell even grow hair on their balls, should be this unsound.
>MUH SOLIPSIST, POMO DEFINITIONS OF 'GOOD'
Samefag; I'm 28 and am demanding a proper argument.
Either provide it or dispose of yourself.
And this is bad, why?
Iron is an element. It is not synthesized by any animal. If you just eat what the animals eat, LOW AND BEHOLD you get iron. Problem fucking solved. Even corn flakes have enough iron in them to be affected by a fucking household magnet.
>Do you not know anything about the agricultural industry? Do you not know how much toxic waste commercial farms produce?
I do. A hell of a lot less comes from vegan foods than animal products, however.
I bond with my family because i can talk to them about things. And yea its only natural to raise a child by giving company and food. Most mothers love their child no matter what. Because its family you know.
Dogs are a different species, and you can barely communicate with them. The only reason your dog hasnt run off yet is because you give him a meal at 6 every day.
>No it's not, it's devoid of any logical ground.
HOW IS IT???
>The rest of your post is just more dishonesty.
No it's not. I'm pretty honest about how much meat is destroying all life on earth.
>HOW IS IT???
There's no actual argument or foundation, just 'I DONT LIKE THIS SO ITS BAD' POMO bullshit.
>No it's not. I'm pretty honest about how much meat is destroying all life on earth.
Why is this bad?
You need to argue, troll. At least try.
Its proven that a diet including meat is the most healthy one.
The only reason to be vegan is if youre retarded, literally.
The only reason to be vegetarian is if you think animals shouldnt die for your food.
But vegans think its cruel eating a bees honey i mean what the fuck?
Don't take this the wrong way, man, but you have aspergers so there is little point in me trying to argue with you. What you have said makes perfect sense for someone with aspergers, and being kind to animals tends to be a non-aspergers thing, so me using the "but you are hurting animals who feel pain and emotions just like you" isn't going to actually work.
If you also don't give a fuck about your health, the planet, or the human species, then yeah, there is honestly no reason for you to go vegan as all of my arguments will just not hit home with you. And that's fine. I can respect that. It's a little selfish, but for who you are, it makes perfect sense.
>There's no actual argument or foundation, just 'I DONT LIKE THIS SO ITS BAD' POMO bullshit.
But it's not. It's more "I don't like this, and here is some evidence that it is bad. So it is bad".
>Its proven that a diet including meat is the most healthy one
Really? I would LOVE to see that proof!
>The only reason to be vegan is if youre retarded, literally.
Yeah, because being healthy and kind is retarded, right? We should aim to be as cruel and unhealthy as possible.
>But vegans think its cruel eating a bees honey i mean what the fuck?
But it is, idiot. Bees are killed during the harvesting process a lot of the time, and they are fed corn syrup that results in malnutrition. Even if we agree that it is not cruel to eat honey, it is still cruel to eat pigs chickens and cows, and that is what most vegans go vegan because of.
>not hurting animals and not destroying the planet is more selfish than hurting animals and destroying the planet
I guess hitler was a pretty good guy, right? He killed millions of people, and nearly destroyed the planet. What an all-around nice guy! HEIL HITLEY!
Not an argument, not logical founded; just pure solipsist ideology.
Please dispose of yourself.
Why is it cruel and why is it bad to be cruel. Please make a valid argument or dispose of yourself.
>HURR DURR WHY IS KILLING CONSIDERED CRUEL? AND WHAT IS WRONG WITH BEING CRUEL, ANYWAY?
Empiricist solipsism; not an argument and not logically founded.
>death is bad
Presumption; not logically founded
>destroying the environment is bad
Dispose of yourself.
>it's a fallacy that animal products destroy the environment
>it's a fallacy that animals die when killed
Don't bother, man. The guy you are replying to is also this guy
He considers killing, and destroying the environment to NOT be a bad thing.
He has GOT to be trolling. No other explanation. If he is not trolling, then by his own logic, Hitler did nothing wrong.
Vegan here since 4 months ago.
Would recommend, shit's way cheaper, I look and feel healthier, and I'm not a selfish cunt who kills animals because of muh b12 which I could just buy as a cheap supplement if I wasnt already eating fortified foods.
Make an argument or leave, I do not play with children.
I don't need to make any arguments because I am making no claims. Do you not understand how this works or are you still just trolling?
muh feelings whatever i dont like is bad
Dispose of yourself
>EVERYTHING I DONT LIKE MUST BE TROLLING OMG FUCKING MEAT TROLLING ME
Learn to argue, you fallicious brat.
Pure solipsist ideology.
You are, in fact, infinitely selfish.
>and I'm not a selfish cunt who kills animals because of muh b12 which I could just buy as a cheap supplement if I wasnt already eating fortified foods.
This nigger gets it.
Are you also the aspergers guy? The aspergers guy seemed quite sane in an aspergers way. You seem like you have aspergers, but you are anything but sane.
You are literally defending murder and environmental destruction.
You make it seem like im an animal hater. I like animals just as much as you but some just have to die because meat is an important part of our diet. As long as its not my dog im fine.
I dont think this has anything to do with aspergers, all living beings just want to take care of themselves and those around them and fuck the rest. Thats just how the world works.
Stop samefag circlejerking, please.
>HAHA LE AUTISM XDDD I SAW IT ON REDDIT\
>HAHA UR FUCKKIN CRAZY FOR EXPECTING ME TO DEFEND MY BELEIFS OMG FUCKING FASCIST NAZI QUESTIONING ME!
Make an argument or dispose of yourself.
>vegans are winning this thread
I guess r9k posters aren't such bad people, after-all
I just said I don't need to make an argument
More troll circlejerking, adorable.
The further you extend this, the more you are being dishonest and thereby evil.
>You make it seem like im an animal hater.
That is because your actions are that of an animal-hater. If you kill animals needlessly, then it must be because you hate them.
>I like animals just as much as you
Ah, so you're vegan then, right? Because I'm vegan. So if you like animals just as much as me, you must not partake in their killing, right?
>but some just have to die because meat is an important part of our diet
No, it's not. We evolved to eat plants, and this is reflected in vegans living longer.
>all living beings just want to take care of themselves and those around them and fuck the rest.
Except vegans. And if you ask most people, they want to take care of others, too.
>Thats just how the world works.
So what? People get raped and murdered everyday. That is also how the world works. But that does not mean we should not do all that we can to stop it. War is also a part of how the world works, but that doesn't mean we should try to bring about world peace.
>still defending the destruction of all life as we know it, and the destruction of the planet as a whole
>We evolved to eat plants
We evolved to be physiologically capable of digesting many kinds of plant matter and animal matter.
It seems that humans can survive long-term on carnivorous, herbivorous, or omnivorous diets.
>buying food from a grocery store is perfectly normal
>buying a bottle of supplements once a year from the same exact store is LOL NOTY I AINT GAY OR NUTHIN TBHFAM
Are you literally a meat industry shill, or just retarded?
Yes, I'm sure you're completely unbiased.
>But that does not mean we should not do all that we can to stop it
Why should 'we' and why are these things bad?
Make an argument or dispose of yourself.
No argument; make one or dispose of yourself.
>We evolved to be physiologically capable of digesting many kinds of plant matter and animal matter.
So why do we get sick when we eat animals? Why do we have a herbivore's anatomy?
>It seems that humans can survive long-term on carnivorous, herbivorous, or omnivorous diets.
So can any other animal. In medieval times, in snowy areas, people would feed their horses meat for months on end.
>still defending murder, rape, theft, genocide, and Hitler
You've gone off the deep-end, mate. Try seeking medical attention immediately
Look, I am not going to argue with someone who thinks that every single atrocity under the Sun is acceptable. You are either trolling, or you are too far gone for "normal" people to help you.
You are to r9k what r9k is to Chad McThundercock.
You need to find another website. One where shit gets really dark and abstract. This is not the right place for you.
I don't think you understand what I am arguing, and instead are presuming an argument is a reflection of reality.
In short; you are actually retarded and must dispose of yourself.
I've already stated that I am making no claims; you are making the claims here. I am demanding that you defend them or leave until you are capable of doing so.
>I don't think you understand what I am arguing, and instead are presuming an argument is a reflection of reality.
What the fuck are you on about?
>In short; you are actually retarded and must dispose of yourself.
What, because I want the world to be a nice place for everyone?
>I've already stated that I am making no claims
Then what the fuck are you doing? All I am hearing from you is "BLER BLER BLER MURDER IS OKAY"
> I am demanding that you defend them or leave until you are capable of doing so.
Defend what? Make some fucking sense, man!
>So why do we get sick when we eat animals?
The Japanese eat a lot of fish and they're some of the healthiest people in the world.
>Why do we have a herbivore's anatomy?
We have the anatomy of an animal capable of surviving on plants, animals, or both. Most herbivores chew the cud or practice coprophagy to help them digest the plant material--we humans don't do that, so we're really limited in the quality of plant matter we can live on. Cows can digest raw grass very well because they chew the cud. We humans can't properly digest raw grass (but we can digest things like succulent fruits, nuts, etc).
>So can any other animal.
Not true. Snakes can't survive on plant plant matter. Crocodiles can't either.
>In medieval times, in snowy areas, people would feed their horses meat for months on end.
Needlessly killing animals is wrong, i agree with you on that. But killing animal with a purpose is something else. Why would it be okay for animals to kill animals or even humans, but not for humans to kill animals? Yes i understand that we're not in a survival situation like them but meat is still part of our diet wether you like it or not.
We omnivores, we eat both plants and meat. Vegans live longer because of less obesity related deaths, not directly because of meat. They live longer because a vegan diet isnt very calorie dense. This is more about self control than meat being dangerous.
Killing will always happen. Wars will always happen. Thats what makes us human basically. Stop living in fucking lala land.
>What the fuck are you on about?
Oh, so you're illiterate too.
>What, because I want the world to be a nice place for everyone?
And a solipsist.
"Then what the fuck are you doing? All I am hearing from you is "BLER BLER BLER MURDER IS OKAY"
And a troll.
>The Japanese eat a lot of fish and they're some of the healthiest people in the world.
Ahhh, yeah, fish and chicken tends not to be as bad as red meats. But do you know what the longest-living people of Japan are? The Okinawans. And their diet is less than 2% animal products by weight. Fish included. So clearly there is a strong correlation between not eating animals, and living long.
>We have the anatomy of an animal capable of surviving on plants, animals, or both
No, we do not.
>Most herbivores chew the cud or practice coprophagy to help them digest the plant material--we humans don't do that
You are describing GRAZING animals -- not frugivores. We are frugivores, not grazers. A gorilla does not chew cud. And what herbivore eats its own shit? I haven't seen any.
>so we're really limited in the quality of plant matter we can live on
But grazing animals eat LOW quality plant foods. Frugivores eat HIGH quality plant foods.
>Cows can digest raw grass very well because they chew the cud. We humans can't properly digest raw grass (but we can digest things like succulent fruits, nuts, etc).
But we are frugivores. Gorillas digest raw grass as well as we do, but that does not mean they are not herbivores.
>Not true. Snakes can't survive on plant plant matter. Crocodiles can't either.
Sorry, I should have made myself more clear. Almost all animals can survive on meat, including herbivores.
>A gorilla does not chew cud.
But they do eat their own shit.
>And what herbivore eats its own shit? I haven't seen any.
Are you kidding me bro? Tons of herbivores do this.
Gorillas. Rabbits. Guinea pigs. Chinchillas. The list goes on.
>Needlessly killing animals is wrong, i agree with you on that. But killing animal with a purpose is something else.
I agree ENTIRELY. And because killing animals in today's society is so unnecessary, that is why I am vegan.
>Why would it be okay for animals to kill animals or even humans, but not for humans to kill animals?
For the same reason why it is okay for animals to rape, murder, and steal from other animals, but we are not allowed to rape, murder, and steal from other humans. BECAUSE WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT.
>Yes i understand that we're not in a survival situation like them but meat is still part of our diet wether you like it or not.
That doesn't mean you can't change it.
>They live longer because a vegan diet isnt very calorie dense
Actually, vegan foods tend to be more calorie dense. I can fit 2500 calories into a 1 litre container if I fill it with sunflower seeds. I would like to see you fit 2500 calories of animal products into a 1 litre container.
>Vegans live longer because of less obesity related deaths, not directly because of meat
Are you a doctor, now? I thought vegans lived longer because they are not consuming as many carcinogens and cholesterol.
>This is more about self control than meat being dangerous.
Vegans eat just as much shit food as you. I eat cake and sweets as much as I did before I was vegan, but I am healthier still.
>Killing will always happen. Wars will always happen. Thats what makes us human basically. Stop living in fucking lala land.
So your suggestion is to accept the world as it is now, and not try to make it better? We would be living in caves if we listened to people like you.
Make an argument, troll. Evil, evil creature.
>I would like to see you fit 2500 calories of animal products into a 1 litre container.
Because you're an illiterate troll who has yet to provide a single argument.
>eating lard is a good alternative to eating sunflower seeds
I never said that you illiterate troll.
You said: "I would like to see you fit 2500 calories of animal products into a 1 litre container."
How about you read your own posts? Or is that 'too abstract'?
>processed animal fat has more calories than sunflower seeds, so clearly animal products are more calorie-dense
Oh I'm sorry I thought we were talking about unprocessed, natural foods.
Vegetable oil has the same calories per 100g as lard. It's fat. It's all the same shit.
So I guess that means since plant foods are more calorie-dense when unprocessed, and it's a draw when they ARE processed... then overall, plant foods are more calorie dense. What a surprise!
>A lot of herbivores need to eat their shit to survive
Really? What for? Doesn't make sense, really, as they have already digested their food, so why would they eat it again? Maybe in a famine, but under normal conditions? Completely illogical.
>Lard can be obtained by heating fatty tissue and catching the dripping liquid.
So, processed then.
>This is a lie, this is how I know you're a troll.
How is it a lie? Fat has the same calories in, regardless of what it is. Bacon grease. Olive oil. Motor oil. All has the same amount of calories in. Between 8.8 and 8.9 calories per gram.
>So, processed then.
Yes, heating anything is processing it!
Sauted spinach? Fucking processed shit.
>Fat has the same calories in, regardless of what it is.
No it doesn't. All fats have different characteristics, including calorie density.
Motor oil? That's a petrol product you blatant troll.
>All fats have different characteristics, including calorie density.
No, they don't. Idiot. Almond oil, coconut oil, corn oil, olive oil, sesame oil, lard, bacon fat. All have the same amount of calories in. Reason why? Your body has to do zero work to convert fat to calories. You can even cut open human fat and see where that fat originated from (what plant, or animal it is from, for example).
That is where a rabbit has a specially-designed type of shit designed for eating, right?
How many herbivores actually do that, though? Because if we look at the original reason why we're talking about this, it is because "humans are not herbivores as herbivores eat their own shit". I've never even heard of an animal needing to eat its own shit, before, so it's got to be a very small number of animals that eat their own shit. It's very interesting, sure, but unless something like 50% of herbivorous animals need to eat their own shit, it is hardly an argument for us not being herbivores.
>Yes, I see you don't understand what a 'fat' is, and still presume them to have the exact same characteristics.
I never said that, you retard. I said they have the same caloric density. Stop strawmanning.
Just wanted to let everyone in this thread know that you're all fags of the highest caliber.
The non-ethical arguments for veganism are pretty good, but the ethical arguments are garbage. Stick to the facts, and leave your shitty "ethics" out of it.
That's when the fats are mixed with imperfections. Pure fat, scientifically measured to be 100% fat? 9 calories exactly, to the decimal point. Animal fat, plant fat, it's all 9 calories per gram. This is pretty basic science.
A jug of vegetable oil is not going to provide 9 calories per gram as it is not 100.00% pure vegetable oil. You will never buy store-bought fat that gives you 9 calories per gram, even though the pure fat is 9 calories per gram.
So for the sake of convenience, I said 8.5 to 9, as we are not talking about laboratory testing, here, we are talking about consumer-grade stuff.
>ethics are garbage
But ethics are what are laws are made for. Are you saying that laws are garbage, too?
Do you think that the arguments against murder are garbage, too, because they are ethical arguments? What defense is there against murder besides ethics? There aren't any. So by your logic, murder is okay, right?
Now you're moving the goalpost.
Lard and vegetable oil contain different impurities in them, that is why they are different.
And this is why I know you're a troll.
>Now you're moving the goalpost.
No, I'm not, I'm just not being overly specific because it doesn't matter as either way I am right.
>Lard and vegetable oil contain different impurities in them, that is why they are different.
The difference is about a 3% difference. Hardly matters. And if you remove the impurities, then it's the same thing.
Let's not forget why we are talking about this -- caloric density. And either way, they are negligibly the same, if not the exact same.
HEY LOOK THE RETARD WHO IS DEFENDING MURDER, RAPE, THEFT, AND THE DESTRUCTION OF THE PLANET IS BACK!
HOW YOU DOING? NOT KILLED YOUR FAMILY, YET? WHAT ARE YOU, BOUND BY ETHICS OR SOMETHING? LOL WOT A FAGOT GET A LOAD OF THIS GUY!
Nice try, FBI-kun.
>ethics are garbage
That's not what I said, but you get points for effort. I said the ethical arguments for veganism are garbage. If you want to ask me why, feel free to.
>I said the ethical arguments for veganism are garbage. If you want to ask me why, feel free to.
I do want to know. Is there not something intrinsically wrong with hurting a human? If so, how is there not something intrinsically wrong with hurting an animal? Humans and animals feel pain and emotion, so surely that is all that is needed to also mean that animals deserve a pain-free life, right?
This is why atheists should be secluded.
Nope; stop trolling.
Yes Anon, and the impurities that define each oil mean they have different caloric densities.
>But ethics are what are laws are made for.
Then you'll be happy to know that every philosopher who was influential in shaping modern civilization agreed that consciousness gave humans precedence over nature, and that our biggest problem was ending conflicts with other humans in order not to deplete nature as a precious resource.
>Yes Anon, and the impurities that define each oil mean they have different caloric densities.
And the impurities differ from sample to sample. Either way, it's the same fucking amount, and therefore the same fucking caloric density.
Why are you not understanding this?
Depending on how the fat is processed, it is anywhere from 8.5 - 9 calories. That does not mean that lard has more calories than vegetable oil.
This entire argument is pointless anyway, as it has no relevance at all, as they are processed foods anyway. Not gonna carry this on. Talk about something that matters.
When you buy dairy you support the meat industry because baby male cows are sold as veal, everyone knows cows have to get pregnant to produce milk and male cows won't produce milk so they have to kill them.
>it's the same amount
Except it's not? Did you fail high school chemistry and thereby not take a single course beyond that?
>as they are processed foods anyway
Yes, if you cause something to melt you are processing it. God damned water is just processed cancer-causing SHIT with too much entropy.
>Is there not something intrinsically wrong with hurting a human?
Can you prove that every person in existence finds it wrong to harm a human? Can you show that there is not at least one person who finds nothing wrong with hurting another person? If you cannot, then you have to acknowledge that there is nothing "intrinsically wrong" in doing so.
>Then you'll be happy to know that every philosopher who was influential in shaping modern civilization agreed that consciousness gave humans precedence over nature
Many philosophers were vegan, you know. And many people who have influenced modern-science were vegan. Leonardo Da Vinci, Gandhi, Einstein, Nikola Tesla, Pythagoras, Socrates, Buddha, Confucius. And plenty more understand that animals have an equal right to life as us, including Darwin. Philosophers seem to have a much higher rate of veganism than the general population. What's your point? Animals are conscious, too. It's not a human-exclusive trait.
>and that our biggest problem was ending conflicts with other humans in order not to deplete nature as a precious resource.
Animal products are depleting more natural resources than every war there is.
My philosophy is, if we didn't eat the pigs, cows and chickens and they lived in the wild, they'd be mauled by coyotes, foxes, wolves, bears, large birds of prey, cougars or get eaten from the inside by parasites. I'm a big animal lover, and I care about how they are treated by the human race. But I'm also an animal, myself, and as an omnivore, I understand that I need meat. Tofu doesn't cut it for me, and I'd rather not have to take pills to keep my protein level at a certain point.
As long as the animals aren't treated cruelly, I enjoy meat. I buy cage-free eggs and avoid store brand unless it's beef. If I made more money, I would buy the cruelty-free brands, but I live on a budget. I sign petitions and used to volunteer at a no-kill cat shelter. I even bought toys and treats for the shelter last Christmas. When I was 17, I stood up for my family's pet cat when my mother wanted to get rid of it, to the point where I even threatened to have her banned from my high school graduation.
I refuse to eat veal or order a lobster because of the process of how it's cooked, and I buy albacore tuna so I don't eat some poor dolphin. I also recycle and pick up litter if it's not inconvenient, and even then I'd still do it, sometimes. But I eat meat. I love burgers, tuna melts, Cajun chicken Alfredo pasta, sushi, grilled chicken sandwiches, buffalo chicken, etc.
So, I feel like it evens out. Not standing up to vegetarians or vegans, I respect them quite a bit. I even tried being vegetarian for a month, just out of curiosity. Just be decent and considerate when consuming meat.
>Can you prove that every person in existence finds it wrong to harm a human?
Not all of them, but the majority do. That's why it's illegal to murder people in any country that has a government.
>Can you show that there is not at least one person who finds nothing wrong with hurting another person? If you cannot, then you have to acknowledge that there is nothing "intrinsically wrong" in doing so.
What are you on about? Do you not know what the word "intrinsic" means? It's means natural. Just because 0.1% of people deviate from nature does not make the other 99.9% any less intrinsic.
>My philosophy is, if we didn't eat the pigs, cows and chickens and they lived in the wild, they'd be mauled by coyotes, foxes, wolves, bears, large birds of prey, cougars or get eaten from the inside by parasites.
But that's not the case, as they would not be out in the wild, as they never would have existed in the first place. That is like saying, "well if we didn't keep niggers as slaves, they would be out in the plains of Africa throwing spears. We are doing them a favor!".
>I'm a big animal lover
No, you're not. You kill animals. How can you say you are an animal lover? You sound like someone who has just stabbed their mum saying, "I really love my mum". Your actions do not match your words.
>I understand that I need meat
No, you don't need meat. You would live healthier on a vegan diet.
>Tofu doesn't cut it for me, and I'd rather not have to take pills to keep my protein level at a certain point.
Pound for pound, seeds and nuts have more protein in than the leanest of meats.
Calorie for calorie, broccoli has more protein in than the leanest of meats. Do you think pic related is lacking his protein?
>I buy cage-free eggs
Well done. You buy torture with 10% less torture.
>If I made more money, I would buy the cruelty-free brands, but I live on a budget
If money is your concern, rice and vegetables are dirt-cheap and healthier, too.
>I refuse to eat veal
But you drink milk. Milk causes more baby cows to die than buying the meat itself.
>Just be decent and considerate when consuming meat
Yeah! Just be decent and considerate with how much you torture and kill animals!
You don't have to eat tofu to be vegan, I'm vegan and I've never eaten tofu. And veganism is not about 0 deaths, it's about reducing de suffering. Yes, cows and pigs would die if they lived in the wild but I think there would be less deaths if they were in the wild... the point of not consuming animal products is reducing the born animals (not born cows suffer less than a born cow), not reducing the deaths of alive animals.