>>26461900 It's not a matter of god. Every action and decision you make is predetermined by your own personality. There was no chance of you being a normie with a gf. You were hardwired to become the person you are today
>>26462047 You can always struggle against your fate, anon, regardless of whether or not you think its futile. You can choose whether or not you want to accept your own circumstances, or whether you want to change them.
''Free will doesn't exist" is just an excuse for you to comfortably check out of the world and blame everything except yourself.
Free will implies the absolute control over your brain's processes, that means control over your neurons and that means control over electrons and neutrons and that means control over sub atomic particles
>>26462104 >You can always struggle against your fate, anon >anon yay the feigned empathyfags are here, no, by definition you cannot 'struggle against fate' in a deterministic world, unless op is talking about soft determinism, in which you may.
>>26462127 That is not the point. The point is that your belief of free will not existing is no excuse not to try doing anything. It is just your escape mechanism when things don't go your way in life. You'll blame it on the fact that we have no 'free will' and everything is 'beyond our control', but really you'd just be lying to yourself and digging a deeper hole.
Regardless of the free will argument, it is important to recognize that you are ultimately in control of your own actions (regardless of whether you actually are or aren't). This keeps you accountable. It makes you focus on fixing and improving yourself rather than blaming others, which is something many people on /r9k/ struggle with.
>>26461958 How do you get a personality? What is the nature of personality?
Free will comes about from a feedback loop of self awareness and facility. Some are trapped by that loop. Some with the willpower and tenacity and esp stamina can wear down that feedback loop.
Change takes time. Time is relative We want things sooner Hardly have time to look at big picture. Change happens bit by bit We just are to concerned with who we are now then who we were or what we want to be. However justified. Change is documented by historians.
>>26462653 yeah see that's the problem you just discard it as edgy. but i'm not trying to... i'm truly devoid of any.
All i'm doing right now is being a beta fag wageslage (luckily i stopped being an orbiter and realized what kind of an idiot i was) i'm saving money i'm buying a motorcycle and i'm gonna crash it and i'm gonna die.
And that will be that.
See i don't want to "search" because there's nothing to search for. Look above you and see how insignificant all of this is.
>inb4 edgy faggot again
I'm just killing time and hoping to die as soon as possible so i don't have to an hero and be the shame of the family.
>>26462826 You treat free will like its something someone should always have. They can live life regardless and so on. But a truly free person is more like a politician or a dictator or someone really paychotic or autistic. You have free will, society imposes limits on that. Its not always on. And its not always all the way on.
>>26463162 >You have free will, society imposes limits on that.
you obviously don't understand the concept of free will, if i start asking you
Why do you post here?
you will give me an answer, and i will keep asking you why until you realize you don't know, and that's because your subconscious makes the decision making and you don't realize the choices being made are not of your own will but rather influenced by thousands and thousands of factors. Your brain takes in consideration so many variables you don't realize that.
but what ever i'll try to explain it once more
YOU DO NOT HAVE... follow me because it's hard now FREE WILL, you have the illusion of choice.
Free will implies like i said before, control over the brain and the subconscious. So you can stop with your idiotic claims and society.
Rules need to be enforced because humans seek to thrive and to have a progeny and they want it to grow in a safe environment, that's an empirical law even animals have cubs where predators can't get to them, because that ensures the survival of the species.
Free will means that after you looked that pic related you can control your thoughts about wanting to reproduce with her and squeeze her tits, (which you can't because you don't control the neurons in your brain)
so in conclusion you have no idea what free will is
>>26463407 >YOU DO NOT HAVE... follow me because it's hard now FREE WILL, you have the illusion of choice. Free will means you can make decisions for yourself just because there are consequences and you base new decisions off former consequences doesn't take away your choice.
Also just going to point out God curses people for generations sometimes, you might have all the free will in the world but your great great great great great great grandma was a whore or your great great great great great great great great great great grandpa did something to piss off God and he thinks y'all can go fuck yourselves for all he cares.
>>26463407 But anon, you say free will is the control over your brain and subconscious. Who should be controlling? Some transcendent soul? Even the idea of that is dumb. The brain is as high as it can get. Free will isn't clearly defiend. For me it means that I am free to act knowing my emotions and memories. I can plan ahead and think what might happen if I do things the other way. I don't know if every future action of me could be calculated given enough information about the current moment and enough time. You don't either. But in the end it doesn't change a thing. However is making the decisions I'm making (or experiencing) is essentially, for I am nothing more than a high-level function of an advanced animal brain to increase efficency.
>>26462349 if someone has no free will, how can they be accountable for their actions? they're just a helpless product of circumstances.
you aren't actually looking at a naked animated woman when you masturbate on 4chan. it's just a collection of pixels. an illusion. yet it still arouses you anyways and becomes a part of your mind, influences your actions compelling you towards a cluster of behaviors.
Exactly if you can't control the very thing that takes decisions you can't argue you have free will
As simple as that.
>>26463820 >you are your brains processes. Yes it contains your consciousness and your subconsciousness, and therefore you only have an illusion of choice about your actions, I DECIDE TO LIFT , I DECIDE TO GO OUT, I DECIDE THIS and that, you get the idea. You think YOU are making the choices (you being your conscious part) but you are truly not
>you have control over what your environment is This is something i don't understand what it's supposed to mean.
>>26463407 if this woman was real i would never violate a random stranger like that. what's wrong with you? also those aren't even good child rearing hips.
the brain is shaped by your actions. memory and emotion creates new pathways. mental illness atrophies. some people are lucky and blessed with a brain chemistry that makes them more intelligent. the foundation of this phenomena is choosing to build interest, on your own. when practiced mindfulness meditators can better endure pain, it begins when they make the choice not to let pain worry them, beginning from that initial choice onwards.
You are your brain. You do have complete control over your neurons, unless affected byb certain neurotoxins. You *are* the sub-atomic particles make up you. You just don't get it, do you? You don't exist as a piece of matter, or in any physical sense, you exist as the *process* of being. DNA has discovered a useful way of staying around long enough to propegate itself is to form a human. That human needs to be able to move, think and communicate to survive. So, a bunch of processes such as eating, digesting, learning, conversating ect are neccesary to keep you moving long enough to reproduce. You are an algamation of those processes, not any one piece of it. And by "being" that process, you have control of it because you "are" that process. You are cells respiring. You are the sodium ions that make your nerves pass on electronic signals ect.
>>26463865 No you don't get it my point is not about the EGO or the super ego, i was merely demonstrating to you that you can't control the thoughts that pop inside your brain, even at an unconscious level there's situations being analyzed and evaluated.
The naked woman analogy was a bad one and you are steering the conversation elsewhere. Like i said, you have no control over the thoughts that pop into your head if you right now read the word BANANA you can't control your neurons not to picture the color, the shape, the smell, of it.
So you can see there's no actual will because you cannot choose not to think about it.
And it goes deeper than that, free will implies control over the very molecules and atoms that fire inside your brain, which you obviously don't control.
>>26463920 This is an understandable logical fallacy. The negation of free will doesn't mean people are not accountable for their actions, people as a species want to have kids and raise them in a safe environment, the difference would be institution like jails would be turned into psychiatric labs to rehabilitate people (not everyone can be saved, some brains are beyond damaged )
>you aren't actually looking at a naked animated woman when you masturbate on 4chan. it's just a collection of pixels. an illusion. yet it still arouses you anyways and becomes a part of your mind, influences your actions compelling you towards a cluster of behaviors.
you deviated beside the point there. that has nothing to do with free will, when i look at a bunch of pixels that tell me that's a female, i'm naturally aroused by specific traits of females. that has nothing to do with free will.
You have illusion of choice which leads you to assume you have free will.
But like i said, if i were to ask you
Why do you like apples??
You would answer me and i could keep asking But Why???
until you don't know, and that not knowing is the very essence of the subconscious.
>>26464124 no you are just not understanding that yes you have a brain and yes there is a part of your brain that you recognize as yourself, but that does not mean you have free will over your actions, (that is not to say your actions are free from accountability, because a society still needs to have a species and to go on, behaviors that undermine the growth of said society are bad because it implies danger for the species itself)
Ultimately realizing that not having free will, won't lead people to mass murder and destruction , if they are smart enough to realize that then they will be smart enough to understand that they need to thrive and keep afloat a society that benefits the survival of their progeny.
>>26464166 when you zoom in far enough you don't see anything but empty space.
and when you say the brain is just neurons and chemical reactions, you don't realize that it's a wildly complex machine, more powerful than most supercomputers, with a wildly versatile code that writes its own programs into being through learning experience. why is it impossible to think that the supposed illusion of choice is not strong enough in the trillions of connections your neurons make to write free will into existence, not as a spontaneous product of existence but as the conductor of your brains processes?
>>26464280 the job of the conscious is to control the direction the subconscious takes. this is basic freudian/jungian psychoanalysis, if you don't care for that than you shouldn't use the terms in the first place.
>your actions are not free from accountability >but this is not free will
>if they are smart enough to realize that then they will be smart enough to understand that they need to thrive and keep afloat a society that benefits the survival of their progeny.
It's not but clearly you don't grasp it, so lets break it down
>Who should be controlling? Some transcendent soul?
You have a conceived notion of control, but that's not how the brain works, thousands of choices are being made without you even realizing it, The brain is simply trying to maintain the body, following empirical rules, you need FOOD you need AIR and you need SHELTER, those rules are beyond choice or will, you have no control over them. So when you say that your Conscious part is not controlling your brain you are falling into a fallacy.
>Even the idea of that is dumb. great argument
>The brain is as high as it can get i think you mean is at it's at the peak of evolution??? and you are wrong because people can't communicate like other mammals can, for example Killer Whales (unfair name) have thousands of different dialects depending on their tribe, and they communicate with sonar and form strong groups of peers. Their communication ability are beyond human comprehension
>For me it means that I am free to act knowing my emotions and memories.
you don't the memory issue is still being debated and memory get altered with time.
>I can plan ahead and think what might happen if I do things the other way. That does not imply free will, again it's your illusion of choice.
>I don't know if every future action of me could be calculated given enough information about the current moment and enough time
this is beside the point and it can't (atleast right now)
> I am nothing more than a high-level function of an advanced animal brain to increase efficency.
>>26464334 Because we as humans need free will, it's a rationalization we came up with so that we can have consequence (again the absence of free will does not imply that your actions do not have accountability because your undermining of the survival of the species is behavior that the conscious and subconscious both recognize and seek to eliminate for their own good obviously)
>the job of the conscious is to control the direction the subconscious takes
You can't have any meaningful control over the sub, that's why it's called sub, what can be done is influence, but even then it only works in certain cases not in all of them.
because the primitive part want's to thrive and live, even without free will, your will still want to thrive and reproduce because that's something beyond your control, that's what drives the sex part, you subconsciously know sex is important for humanity , the immediate effects of pleasure and dopamine yaddi yaddi ya are just there to enforce that need for reproduction.
Like i said before it's something animals do, they protect the cubs because they know it's the only thing that ensures the survival of the species. It's beyond comprehension, some people have a need to kill or do harm, a healthy brain does not present those needs unless it's threatened therefore i will eliminate that which threatens my existence.
>>26464166 >>26464166 >No you don't get it my point is not about the EGO or the super ego, i was merely demonstrating to you that you can't control the thoughts that pop inside your brain, even at an unconscious level there's situations being analyzed and evaluated. >The naked woman analogy was a bad one and you are steering the conversation elsewhere. Like i said, you have no control over the thoughts that pop into your head if you right now read the word BANANA you can't control your neurons not to picture the color, the shape, the smell, of it.
You confuse cognitions with behavior
Free will exists becuase we have evolved beyond our primitive nature. Those things we still have to deal with but we have our other cognitive facilities to compensate.
If we didnt have free will then you'd already be having sex or dead.
Also you assume with free will that we have the power to CONTROL EVERYTHING. Which is neively idealistic. The levels at which the universe may have similar characteristics but forces interact much different at different levels and produce different products.
>How do you know free will doesnt exist but is rather misunderstood?
>>26464501 >a from a buzzword you don't like to one that you do
they are not buzzwords
Free will means you have absolute control over your brain's thoughts decision processes . which you clearly don't because that would mean you have control over atoms which means you have control over subatomical particles and so on and so forth, IF you don't control these things then you will never be able to say I HAVE FREE WILL.
Why?? Because you don't control the aforementioned parts that make up your brain.
Illusion of choice is what gives you the impression you have free will. IF I CHOOSE I AM DOING SO OF MY OWN FREE WILL.
And you don't have real choice you are just led to believe you have it, because you are conscious and therefore you rationalize actions. It's an illusion because ultimately the real decision is not made by the conscious side of your brain, you only think it is.
>>26464922 Also when talking about academic concepts at such length that they are the foundation to your argument i would expect you to understand the concepts of ego superego and id more clearly. Please go back to the normienet and educate yourself.
>>26465177 I've had several incidents where I'll perform the right behavior without being aware of it. Something will fall and I will catch it before I know what I'm doing. If "you" are the product of your brains thought decision processes, then not only are you not in control of your free will, free will as a concept is obsolete because your brain is part of you.
>>26464469 >those rules are beyond choice or will, you have no control over them >you have no control over them >you
But exactly what you describe IS me. Everything that I am is a collection of memories and a set of rules how to handle them. The unconscious part is as much me as the conscious part. The idea of putting your consciousness on a higher level than that of other brain functions is flawed.
>great argument Tell me a single argument that supports a soul.
>i think you mean is at it's at the peak of evolution? No, I mean that the brain is the highest abstraction of my consciousness. No soul, no 'me'. There is no difference from the 'you' and the 'brain' you keep talking about.
>That does not imply free will, again it's your illusion of choice. Then what is free will? How, in any physical possible way in this universe, can free will exist if it isn't limited on previous experiences and rules to process them?
Cognitive behavoral therapy has been shown to be effective.
You may have negative or persistant thought but that doesnt mean you can minize them, ignore them or reframe them. You cant change immediatly It takes time to mold your conscious especally when you have become more self aware.
I am sure you refuse to listen to any of these thing becuase you want to feel justified that you are in your shit position And that you dont want it to be your fault.
And it isnt your fault you were put into this mess.....maybe
What is your fault is what you are doing about your situation.
>>26465351 >But exactly what you describe IS me. Everything that I am is a collection of memories and a set of rules how to handle them. The unconscious part is as much me as the conscious part. The idea of putting your consciousness on a higher level than that of other brain functions is flawed.
I know it's flawed because i'm not very good at postulating thoughts into words, when i say you i refer to your brain but also to the part of your brain that is conscious and recognizes the brain is the brain
You are a body with a functioning brain. That brain is what decides, but you don't have total control over it, and that absence is why free will is non existent.
>Tell me a single argument that supports a soul.
there is no soul.
>There is no difference from the 'you' and the 'brain' you keep talking about.
yes i know it's a fallacy but it's not easy to put into words, because i have little knowledge of psychology , as another anon said the ego and super ego, my understanding of it is not that broad. But free will first starts at a physical point then it can evolve to the psychological.
>Then what is free will
the absolute control of the brain (starting with the physical, from particles building your way up to firing neurons.
>>26465532 I think I understand you position. But suppose I had free will. What would control my brain? On what base would I control those functions? Suppose the universe is a giant simulation, would your idea of free will be an intelligent and conscious agent that controls a brain with some sort of API? If so, the overlaying universe would have to have significant differences to our universe, otherwise the problem would be still the same.
>>26465680 When i say you don't have control over your brain i mean your conscious mind , it's about your conscious mind being aware of every single thought every single process. IF you have that type of knowledge that would imply your ability to manipulate electrons etc, which again is impossible.
>>26465780 Alright, I'll try to understand it better with another analogy. Suppose I model the human brain functions and create an AI that acts like a human based on that model. If given the right sensory input, the AI would think it's a human. But I have the ability to control the memory and emotions of the AI because it's still a program. Now, if I inform the AI that it's an AI and give it full control over it's interface and the ability to remodel itself on the lowest level, would that be free will? I think it would certainly closer, but still limited to the new informations on itself. It could remodel itself, but only to a certain degree. With my current understanding of this, I think I'll have to agree. It's non-existant.
so we can with the knowledge we have today say that at an atomic level electrical impulses are fired inside the brain. Those electrical impulses are what makes the brain function. And we also know that because you can manipulate certain responses with electromagnetic fields, so we know for sure it's electrons and neutrons inside there.
Side note, when you "die" meaning the oxygenation of the blood stops happening you aren't truly dead, your brain keeps firing and functioning you simply stop being conscious. the brain dies because the blood doesn't oxygenate it it's called brain hypoxia. And you could in theory still keep it alive, even more by oxygenating the blood, another reasons it dies is because the circulatory system stopped working (major trauma or it just stopped) and the cells are not reproducing anymore they are just dying.
>>26466055 What makes me me and not just a copy of me? If I die but a perfect copy of my brain existed, it wouldn't be me, just an exact copy. Who would think it's me. Is it the continious firing of neurons in my brain that makes this particular instance of a bunch of atoms interacting me? What about a coma? Would it be the same as dying and making a copy? Or is the physical composition of the brain? Would I continue to exist if every atom that made up my brain would be put together exactly as the day I died, even if it's a million years later? Or is the idea of a special 'me' inherently flawed and merely an illusion we can't grasp?
It's getting more and more convoluted. We only think and have a set number of informations , there is an animal Called MANTIS SHRIMP it has a very peculiar set of eyes, as his eyes can detect 12 wavelengths, Something we need a device to see he sees it no problemo, that thing alone is better than humans, and there's various other examples like how birds sense magnetic fields, or how dogs can smell particles or cancer.
So if you model it from a human perspective and it is truly intelligent and becomes self aware it will understand that the human form is obsolete and the human way of thinking is obsolete and it will become more and more something we can't comprehend.
If you had a printer that can print an exact copy of your brain that would not be you for what you are is what you have experienced.
If you mean an exact copy down to the memories and experiences then yeah it's you, even if it is a copy is none the less another you.
>Is it the continious firing of neurons in my brain that makes this particular instance of a bunch of atoms interacting me?
>What about a coma? Would it be the same as dying and making a copy?
A coma is a state of prolonged unconsciousness, it's the way the brain deals with heavy trauma, and it's still not clear how people can wake up after decades and still retain memory and recognize faces, (some argue that is because the part of the brain that controls temporal cognition is not active, the same way when you sleep you don't realize you've been asleep for 8 hours. The brain doesn't seem to atrophy because it's working even when unconscious. So it's still you just sleeping a long sleep)
>Or is the physical composition of the brain?
well yeah when you form memories and have experiences pathways are created so AN EXACT COPY down to the atoms would be you.
>Or is the idea of a special 'me' inherently flawed and merely an illusion we can't grasp?
>>26466409 A tree is easy to define. It's an adult form of a bunch of cells which happen to have the DNA code of some subclass of plants. Now do the same thing with consciousness and free will. It's impossible because different people have different ideas about those concepts. Of course, some crazy fuck might define a bird as a tree. But let's assume there are no crazy fucks. Even intelligent... fucks can't make a conherent and complete definition of those words.
>>26466559 >some crazy fuck might define a bird as a tree.
it's not that wrong, i mean if you want to go that deep the same atoms that make up the bird can be rearranged into a tree. it's a matter of not being able to do it but that doesn't mean it can't be done , somehow
>>26466728 People way smarter than me have been arguing over this for longer than I'm alive. We won't come to an agreement here, but arguing about it is still better than posting in a /redpill/ or >tfwnogf thread.
>>26466846 I agree. With advancing technology we sure as hell will figure out the mysteries of existence. The progress of the last 20 years were enormous compared to the last 2000 years. This is truly a golden age we live in.
>>26465676 It's not, nothing invalidates determinism, probabilities are just used when we fail to determine how is something caused. Because we don't know how does the said thing happens, the best way to predict it then becomes probabilities. Which doesn't mean it doesn't have a cause.
>>26467039 >immersive VR MMOs >gfbots with AI perfect for your personality >affordable body augmentations >space travel >self driving cars >unconditional basic income because of automation What am I missing? Give me more reasons not to kill myself.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the shown content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows their content, archived. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content, then use the post's [Report] link! If a post is not removed within 24h contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org with the post's information.