>>26292743 Slaves were adults with minds, the ability to think and feel, and make decisions. They were negatively impacted by being enslaved.
Most unborn children who are aborted do not have minds capable of thinking and feeling. They are not negatively impacted (consciously) by being aborted. And I'm against abortion in cases where the fetus is developed enough to feel what's happening.
>>26292704 Because statistically its been shown that more then 15% of those killed have later been found not guilty. Also, the process is long and costly, lasting over a decade sometimes, with millions in trial costs. If you wanna have a discussion about streamlining that process and only allowing it for murderers that are proven beyond belief like the Boston bomber, I'm down for it.
Also I'm pro abortion until 20 weeks as it currently is law, if the fetus cannot survive outside the womb its not a person. Also don't pretend you care about people, conservatives care about fetuses, they immediately cut off any funds to help mothers or kids.
>>26292838 >Because statistically its been shown that more then 15% of those killed have later been found not guilty. Where the fuck did you get those statistics from?
>Also, the process is long and costly, lasting over a decade sometimes, with millions in trial costs. No, no it's not. Stop repeating the same bullshit every leftist keeps spouting. The EXACT same procedure has to be performed when you're about to put someone in penitentiary for life. You don't put people in pen "just because".
>Also don't pretend you care about people, conservatives care about fetuses, they immediately cut off any funds to help mothers or kids. I don't care. I'm pro abortion AND pro death penalty. Being against either while claiming the other is fine is just illogical and hypocritical.
>>26292919 >I think it's ironic that atheists claim to rely on cold, hard science yet don't acknowledge abortion is murder. Anyone want to explain this to me?
It's simple. Murder is a legal term with a specific definition. Abortion doesn't meet that definition, just like killing someone in self defense isn't murder, killing someone through negligence isn't murder, and killing death row inmates isn't murder. Therefore abortion isn't murder. It's the killing of a human being, but it isn't murder.
>>26292919 cold hard science doesn't count anything as murder.
scientists also usually agree that heart pumping or spinal cord development are more relevant stages than conception. if any diploid cell that is a little different than you is an independent person, then you shouldn't be allowed to eat meat or go out into the sun either.
how would you explain murder as something wrong anyway?
>>26292903 I dont see how Its illogical to be pro one and not the other because both are completely different scenarios. In one, you do nothing to something that ever knew it existed, while in the other you eradicate a real human beings consciousness, because it's unworthy to breathe the same air as everyone else. Why not let them rott in a cell for the rest of his/her life with his own thoughts?
>>26293017 Anon, don't you see that the whole debate in case of both is about what do you consider a "human being"?
Abortionists don't consider the fetus (or whatever hasn't born yet) human, while many conservatists do.
Similarly, many conservatists don't consider a mass murderer a human being (as he gave away his humanity and human rights the second he did the deed) while considering the unborn a human.
As you see those are very much the same scenarios.
>Why not let them rott in a cell for the rest of his/her life with his own thoughts? Because that costs money. Our money. Your's and mine. Not to mention how those fuckers actually live in better conditions than many normal hardworking people.
>>26292997 >A single cell should have the same legal rights as a grown ass man >A bunch of cells should have the same legal rights as a grown ass man >A human corpse should have the same legal rights as a grown ass man >A vegetable should have the same legal rights as a grown ass man
If you're serious about this and you only argument is stupid definition of words, you should kill yourself right now.
>>26293224 Kind of. Except it's up to the murderer (or the mass rapist, whatever) to lose his human rights. The penal code is available for everyone and the law is the same for everyone. He consciously commits the crime and therefore consciously rids himself of his right to live. And his humanity. He's not human =/= doesn't have human rights.
Not to mention how imprisonment itself is actually also a breach of human rights and yet, nobody seems to be bothered and everyone thinks that this particular thing is fine. Because he's a criminal.
Each of those sperm have a potential personality and a potential life full of love and happiness ahead of them. You are killing future scientists by failing to deposit them securely in a sperm bank. There are millions of infertile fat lesbian women out there who would love to raise your autistic potentialchildren
>>26293361 You do realize that freezing them doesn't keep them alive... right? They never really were alive to begin with. Still, most of them will die in the fertilization process since there is only a single egg cell.
Most IVF treatments result in multiple fertilized eggs because they inject each egg individually. Anyone who has IVF generally aborts multiple embryos to achieve a single-child pregnancy. But they don't call it abortion in that case, for some reason. Octomom was one of the only honest ones.
>>26293351 And? You make 20 million sperm everyday the fact that one became a zygote is inconsequential. Pregnancy is incredibly taxing on the woman and can actually kill her so pretend like the father shares the burden pre-birth.
>>26293391 Anon what? It literally does this. You clap the guy and forget about his worthless existence. He's never going to hurt anyone again. Keeping him in jail serves literally no purpose. If only the prisoners were at least forced to work for their food or something, it might remotely make sense. But in the current way, where they're just financed from taxes, it's absolutely ridiculous.
>>26292633 >Why is abortion legal? its murder of unborn children
When one inspects this a bit closer, it is bait. Namely, murder is illegal by definition. And so, OP's question is not really a question, 'why is abortion murder? it is murder'. And so it is betrayed that it is just an opportunity for OP to state his prejudice, by using the words 'abortion' and 'murder' in one post.
>>26293429 Jesus christ don't you realize that it's the fathers' obligation to keep the mother of their child secure and well nourished? THAT is a burden. How many pregnancies end up with a death after all?
>>26293512 That's a retarded way to say it, but also this. You objectively can't make a case that something is right or wrong. You can only speak about its material consequences, 'if you scrape this thing here that shows some vital signs out, this and this is likely to statistically happen to the mother- (and father-)to-be'.
>>26293497 They do have human DNA, potentially harm their host in some way and aren't intelligent. Therefore, they aren't that different from a fetus.
>>26293486 Yeah, but everything that's not intelligent is nothing more than that. A flower? Just a pre-programmed clump of cells. A fly? A simple automaton kind of cell clump. A fetus? A clump of cells without any cognition.
>>26293562 >You asserted that a clump of cells isn't a person I'm not him, but generally a person has to have an active brain to be considered a person. This is why it's not illegal to have a person's family pull the plug on them when they're brain-dead in a hospital
>>26293562 >You asserted that a clump of cells isn't a person Wasn't me though. I'm just saying that all 'clumps of cells' aren't the same thing. And in some cases 'clump of cells' actually describes the situation, and in others it's just hysterical word wankery.
>>26293266 >He's not human =/= doesn't have human rights
Nigga please, people don't just turn into birds or something. They're Human. no matter what you call them. Call them monsters, call them ducks, at the end of the day they're still Human. They can't change species with the snap of the fingers.
How do you feel about old people who are waiting to die but are kept alive by the oath doctors take to attempt to save a life no matter the cost, involving feeding tubes and bedsore ointments and a healthy (but non-lethal) dose of morphine?
Oh yes, well, you can call a chair a plane and think Mars is made out of ice cream, but it doesn't work like that. You think if you kill him and get caught, then tell the police he's not Human they're not gonna give a single fuck? If that was the case we'd all be Gods.
Personally, I think people put too much stake in feelings. I can feel upset, or good about it, but my feelings won't kill the man or let him do what he wants.
But you know what? If they want to die, they can die for all I care. Though my feelings have no effect on this and unless it's someone I personally know I won't accurately tell you exactly how I feel about the whole thing.
No, it doesn't. A cat is not Human. Neither is a dog. You can't just consider something to be something else and magically make it so. There are these things called facts, and the truth. The objective and subjective. The former is what it is, and the latter is what you think it is.
>>26293887 >>26293877 Either we consider everything connected to humans "human" and are pro-life or the opposite. Claiming that a fetus isn't human enough but a criminal who murdered many other people is, sounds about ridiculous.
>>26293132 >By that logic, get rid of condoms and birth control! You stop them from coming together, must be murder! This is actually the Catholic Church's stance on abortion. In my view though, condoms are fine but abortifacients aren't.
>>26294071 A criminal has a working mind, a sense of self, memories and may be wrongly accused. A fetus has nothing like that. No memories, no consciousnes, just a clump of cells which form a blank slate version of a human. It has no emotial connections to anything and no perception of pain. Forcing it to exist is by far more immoral than killing it in a state where it's not even able to care.
>>26294228 You're confusing the issue by calling it a child. It has no brain activity. It's not conscious or a person at the time of abortion (when following laws, not covering very late-term abortions).
>>26294268 You're confusing the issue by calling the criminal a human. A human being uses his brain and morality and knows to not kill other humans. Brain activity doesn't matter here. Monkeys, tigers, bears also have brain activity. Yet, they're not human.
>>26294228 Plants and bacteria are innocent too. I just can't comprehend how you can put a fetus on the same level as a grown person. If a women wants an abortion, chances are that the child life will turn out bad. Why would you force anyone to live a shitty life? I wish I was never born. Or aborted, it doesn't matter. Non-existence isn't bad. I can't kill myself now because I have people close to me and developed a sense of self-preservation. Abortion would literally have solved all my problems.
Saying a foetus is a child is like saying an unrelated roll of 35mm film is child pornography.
A 35mm film slide of a sunset contains the same chemical components of a 35mm slide of a kid getting raped, but you don't see police trying to arrest amateur photographers for their holiday snaps. There is a key difference which is hard to explain in law, but relatively simple to understand.
The same applies to the foetus. If you were to remove it early in the pregnancy, it would not be considered alive. It lacks most of the characteristics of a living human. It may be biologically similar, but this doesn't make it a living child. It would lack conciousness, and would not survive independantly.
Yeah, it's an instinct, but not like you guys are presenting it. You don't go stark raving mad and try to kill everything for the sake of it. If morality tells you that killing is wrong, or whatever, but your life is in danger and the only way out is killing, what do you do?
Sperm does not have the capacity to grow into a human, notre does an ovum. They are gametes. They do not have human DNA. Only when fertilisation has occured, can the zygote be considered human as it now has a full set of human chromosomes.
>>26294456 Yes, because a child has perception and memories. I agree, a monkey and other intelligent and social creatures should have equal legal protection. I don't care how cruelly a fish or a fly is killed, but apes and dolphins should be somewhat protected from cruel fates.
>Well? Why do people who are anti-death penalty force criminals to live shitty lives in the pen? What do you think? What are you trying to say? That you agree with the broken jurisdiction? That you want them to live a shitty live because it fits in your defintion of right?
Abortion is wrong because sex is so trivial these days. Sex should be the final step between couples when they have known each other and they are ready to bond physically. Because sex is normalized and marriage is bad, this is what you get. Women advocating third trimester abortion. No joke I heard some cunt say that she wanted to abort kids whenever because they were "parasitic" and that "grossed her out lawl". These people are degenerate and they should be gassed to get rid of this sick train of thought. They are surprised when they have sex and they get pregnant. What the fuck did you expect? Why would a normal couple abort a child? Said normal couple must first have a serious discussion about the responsibilities of having a child/having sex and the commitments they are going to make. Unless the child is disabled, or it is from rape, abortion is wrong.
Mostly because political elites decided by inviolable imperial decree that it was a human rights issue, and that a people has no right to decide for itself that it wants to care for it's most defenseless members. It's the ultimate symptom of the collapse of society. People become so atomized that the continuation of the human race becomes a personal choice based on convenience and personal whim.
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