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Can someone convince me that murder is bad,...
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You are currently reading a thread in /r9k/ - ROBOT9001

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Can someone convince me that murder is bad, by using rational arguments, and not appealing to emotion?
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Changing a person's life without their consent is bad
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I'll throw the ball in your court.

Define "murder" and define "bad". This will make discussion simpler and more concise.

If you insult me instead of answering the question, then that just proves you hate critical thinking and you're not "rational" at all because you can't imagine that anyone else could have a different thought process than you or that anyone else would want the terms tightly defined to facilitate making an argument.

Sorry for going off. I spend a lot of time arguing on the Internet and I'm sick of people not wanting to define their terms and being vague on purpose.

So, yeah. Define A (murder) and C (bad) and I'll try to find the middle to copulate them.
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>>25946446
waste of time. use it for anime and shitposting.
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It's not so kill yourself
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>>25946446
What are you 14? Jeez.
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>>25946507
Understandable request.
Murder: ending a human's life without their consent.
Bad: unfavorable interest of the speaker, that has a displeasing emotive request that fits the words for its use in suggestion. (thanks steveson)
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Society is a natural development based on mutual satisfaction, namely the exchange of resources
Murder helps destroy the relationships necessary to accommodate this, so we punish this behaviour
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>>25946446
If everyone murdered then there would be no people left and society would no longer exist. Therefore in general murder is bad.
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Can you explain why something is emotional without reference to emotions?
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>>25946553
yo reddit. please go and stay go
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>>25946827

By using an MRI scan you can see the brain is effected by certain stimuli. You can empirically say, without having to use emotion, that "this thing" causes a certain emotion in people when they are exposed to it.
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>>25946751
>>25946718

Let's say I'm a complete fucking loon, a psychopath, and that I don't care about society. In that case, It's just another emotive appeal, thinking that I should be concerned with society
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Because there's no legal justification for it.

Even Oxford says:

>Kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation

And they define unlawfully as

>Not conforming to, permitted by, or recognized by law or rules

Killing someone in self defense or in a Police shootout (Assuming you're with the police) can be justified, murder isn't because you have no legal defense.

Not to mention also Premeditated, the "Self defense" and "Police shootout" situations often arise out of the blue. Whereas a premeditated kill (AKA Murder) is planned beforehand by the attacker.

Murdering someone also makes you a threat to society, no community wants someone who might kill one of them at any given time.
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can someone explain to me why the sun works without referencing physics?
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>>25946751
This is a very good argument.

Here's another one: Would you like someone to kill you? Probably not, despite what your stupid ass might think. If you don't want to get fucking killed then you probably shouldn't kill anyone.

Murder is bad even without looking at the law.
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>>25947014
A loon wouldn't listen to reason
Any practical argument would be dismissed as emotional
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OK let's think out a situation

A man collects 10 kids every weekend and has them fight to the death. He is smart enough to have evaded police and parents for years. You talk to him and he says that he will stop doing it if you convince him that it iswrong. He does it for pleasure, and doesn't care about the kids or any consequences, because he can dodge them (let's just say).
What do you say?
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>>25946446
Murder can Inconvenience you by getting you sent to prison
It also inconveniences other people which can inconvenience you (i.e.Vendettas)
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>>25947036
God.

Checkmate, Athiests.
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>>25946605
Your definition of bad is bad

thats why youre a socio
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>>25947420
Hah, I solved it without God
|
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V
>>25947349
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>>25946446
Right and wrong are opinions made by humans. Long story short, you can't be convinced if you know the truth.
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Outside of personal ethics, it's only contextually bad. I.E. Will land you in jail in 2016, will get you exiled from social group etc.
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you wouldn't want it to happen to you sums up most things that are immoral

eg

>lol theres nothing wrong with hurting other people morals are abstract notions
>*someone slaps you lightly*
>OH MY GOD PLEASE STOP!!! HELP!!! HES ATTACKING ME!!!!!!!!
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>>25947219

How about I convince him with a fucking hammer before freeing the kids? Why would I need to use words? You think they would even throw me in jail after I killed him? No. I'd probably get a fucking medal.
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>>25946605

>Murder: ending a human's life without their consent.

Under this definition legal executions are murders, and so are killings in self defense. And all warefare would essentially be mass murder.

Are you sure this is the definition you want to work with? I'm not saying you can't. Just making sure.

>Bad: unfavorable interest of the speaker, that has a displeasing emotive request that fits the words for its use in suggestion. (thanks steveson)

It seems that under this definition you're implying that good and bad are entirely relative--that is, something is bad in a real sense only if the speaker considers it bad.

Is that right?
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>>25947349
No one is acknowledging my perfectly good solution.
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>>25947655
Probably because your point has been raised more than once already, you clown.

The argument that you shouldn't do to others what you don't want done to you is a perfectly good one. Most of the world seems to understand this. Well, in the first world, at least. In the more shitty parts of the world, people will kill each other for very little.
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>>25947219
A way may be to convince him that he is insane; that what he thinks he wants is unreliable, perhaps by juxtaposing his moral reality with that of (most of) all other humans, pointing out inconsistencies in his reasoning etc.

If you convince him of this then whether it is right or wrong to murder is immediately irrelevant to him because he is in defect of the mental faculties required to see right from wrong even if it where right in front of him.

In this way you convince him not that murder is necessarily wrong but that murder is not necessarily right either; and consequentially he would stop killing.

That's the best I've got.
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>tfw low IQ people try to have intellectual conversations
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Nothing wrong with killing in the animal kingdom therefore because they don't have laws and emotions like we do
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>>25946446
If you value your own sapience then you should value other sapient life also.

Also your own motivation to murder is likely "muh emotions".
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>>25947788
>muh passive aggressive hypocritical greentext post

You're the only with the low IQ here, buddy. Well, along with OP.

>>25947841
Animals kill each other to stay alive, you fucking moron. Humans kill animals for the same reason. They also kill for other reasons (for their pelts, and whatnot) but that's also seen as bad by a lot of people.
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>>25947788
To prove you would know intelligence when you saw it, perhaps you could tell us some of your favourite intellectual books, written by intelligent people.
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>>25946446
Wrong or illegal and a bad idea?

I can do the second, but not the first.

BTW in case you were wondering the "categorical imperative" as explained by Kant is a logical fallacy...
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>>25947582
I'd like to adjust the definition of bad to include the unfavorable intrest of the speaker and the majority of people in the same situation.
the rest I'll go with.
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>>25946605
>unfavorable interest of the speaker
well there you go
most speakers are interested in not getting murdered, so if the society around them has a propensity for murder, encouraging that to be generally reduced would reduce the chances of the speaker getting murdered, and is thus in their interest
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If we use bad to mean objectively wrong then it is because it is necessary to respect liberty, for man is to be free. Murder is only justified when the deprivation of liberty of life for the murdered is greater than the deprivation of liberty that the murdered person would put on the murderer.
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>>25946446
For what it's worth I've been to Irag for two tours and technically murdered people. It really can make you question your own humanity. Be that appealing to emotion or not, I don't know or care.
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>>25948223
>feeling bad because you killed a bunch of sandniggers

Why are soldiers such fucking wusses? This isn't the first guy to cry about shit like this, not even the first on r9k. Unless you killed unarmed civilians then why would you feel bad? If a toddler was aiming a gun at you then you fucking gun that fucker down and sleep soundly.
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>>25948279
That's the thing. I don't feel bad. I took another beings life and I don't feel anything about it. It's somewhat sadistic in a way.
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>>25948279
Also, once you pull the fucking trigger and kill a nigger, then we'll talk.
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>>25948279
Ok Anon. Gotcha.
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>>25946502
>ids bad

Not unless I have to deal with consequences. If I don't like the person and I get away with it, it's good. Very, very good.
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>>25948341
No, it's not sadistic. You just aren't looking at it in the right way. You were keeping yourself alive. You were keeping the people with you alive. When somebody is trying to kill you, they are no longer a person; They're just something to remove so you can continue living.

>>25948382
Well, considering that people aren't even allowed to have guns in my country and I'm not a soldier. I don't know if I'll ever "kill a nigger". I really doubt that I'd feel bad about it, though. I'm not some fucking tree hugging hippy save the world every race is the human race fuck like most people off the internet seem to be.

>>25948418
actually, the internet itself is pretty horrible now
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>>25947850
see below
>>25948018
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>>25946446
Someone might murder you
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>>25948638
I wish somebody WOULD murder him. It'll show him exactly why murder is bad. How stupid do you even to be to ask that question.
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>tfw came too late to BTFO OP
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>>25948661
I'm Donald Trump, and I approve this message.
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>>25948661
>How stupid do you even to be to ask that question.

Depends, how stupid do you think it makes someone who disagrees with you? Not wanting to be murdered doesn't make murder wrong, it just makes you uncomfortable with the possibility that someone you love could be murdered. By that logic anything that I don't particularly care for and would not want others I care for to experience is 'wrong'.

Fuck you retard.
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Your first mistake is falling for the illusion that there actually exist objective "good" and "evil" outside of the realm of human perception. Often, it's actually this idea of separation that leads to humans wanting to murder each other anyways. Usually humans justify it in our own minds by claiming the other person is "evil" or they're simply less worthy to survive based on their own subjective judgement of that character's actions.

Furthermore, it's important to understand what's rational isn't always the most beneficial pathway to follow. Following absolutely rational paths can actually lead to a misunderstanding of our universe. For instance, it's "rational" to believe that everything is predetermined. after all we can rationally examine how dominos work and assume that is how the universe works as well. But if we were to follow that path, we would be completely ignorant of quantum mechanics as it works in a way that the human mind simply can not conceive sine we do not observe it on our day to day lives.

Regardless, you said you wanted a rational reason not to kill others? Conforming to your standards of what rational is I would point out that all organisms have a tendency to want to survive, and even species will natural do want is best for the whole race's survival. I could also point out to you that nearly all organism are hostile to those of their own species that kill of others. Evolution definitely favors life, and even though we don't know why, maybe that mystery can be enough for you to respect it too.
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>>25948724
>Depends, how stupid do you think it makes someone who disagrees with you?
Someone who disagrees that murder is wrong? Very stupid.

>Not wanting to be murdered doesn't make murder wrong
Uh... it kind of does.

>By that logic anything that I don't particularly care for and would not want others I care for to experience is 'wrong'.
Yes, it would be wrong, in your opinion. Just like how murder is wrong in my opinion.

>Fuck you retard
Are you talking to me or yourself?
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>>25946446
the rational reason for not killing others is that you will almost certainly be caught and in doing so you will forfeit your freedom or even your own life.

No matter how much you dislike someone, these feelings will likely pass with time so rather than dwell on them and doing something that will get you arrested/executed just let it go.

But no, technically murder is not wrong. Feel better?
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>>25948857
>Uh... it kind of does.

not even close
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You turn into Voldemort you do it too often
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>>25948901
Wow. That was a very good post. It was not pointless at all.

As many have said in this thread: Right and wrong is subjective. My opinion is that murder is wrong, also that you're an idiot. You can disagree but you'll have a hard time disproving either of these points.
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>>25946446
Because you took something away from another being that you had no right to.
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>>25946446
>Can someone convince me that murder is bad, by using rational arguments, and not appealing to emotion?

Why?

It's not objectively "bad" - or rather, you have to define "bad" for it to be bad. Only you know your personal definition of "bad", so only you know if it's bad for yourself.

Hint: Humans are emotional creatures, society and human interaction is built on emotion.

Driving force of this is evolution, survival of the species. In general - but not always - murder may be bad for society's survival.
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>>25946446
Humankind and most of the animal kingdom have survived this long partially due to the fact that it is social convention to not kill each other. We put ourselves and our loved ones if you have any, at risk, the moment you lower the sanctity of life to the point where killing someone for little reason is acceptable.

Human civilization as a whole therefore generally agrees to not kill each other.

To answer your question, no it is not 'bad', it's all relative in the end- but it does contravene a very very old social convention.
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>>25948958
>moving the goal posts

You never stated that it was subjective until just now, prior everything you mentioned was as if it was purely fact without a good attempt at reason
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>>25948724
What do you consider "wrong" so we're all on the same page.

Sorry if I'm ignoring content in thread.
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>I don't like something so it is bad in all cases

Siracha sauce as does most of my family; because we don't like it, it's wrong for others to enjoy.
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>>25949135
Hmm

Nothing.
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>>25949072
If you weren't so fucking stupid, you would know that everything anyone posts is OF THEIR OPINION unless they state that it's a fact. You can't say that I spoke "as if it was purely fact". That doesn't even make sense.

Holy shit... This is why I try not to discuss anything with the people here because it's so goddamn pointless for both parties.

>>25949140
This analogy is so bad that I need time to think about how to best call you an idiot.

Okay. So, I think murder is wrong because I would not like to be murdered. To bring in your example: If you don't like sriracha then don't force feed it to others and they won't make you eat it, I guess. Your post was stupid and you should feel stupid.
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>>25949178
Well if you think nothing is wrong then of course you'll think murder isn't wrong. You should make a thread about how you think nothing is wrong and start from there.
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Murder is wrong because someone said it was, just go with it.
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>>25946446
"Bad" is inherently subjective. There can be no "rational", objective argument to convince anyone that xyz is bad.
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>>25949219
I did not make this thread, just want to be clear on that. I'm not OP.

We all know where this is going:
Oh so you don't think murder is wrong eh? Well then you won't mind if I kill you?!

No, I don't want to be murdered, but that does not make murdered intrinsically wrong in a universal concept of right and wrong.
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>>25948492
I am no tree hugging hippie by any means. It is simply the fact that you are taking the life of something that has ambitions. They may conflict, but I came out victorious. I certainly didn't want him killing me, but here's the kicker. I somewhat enjoyed taking his life. It was something that made he feel powerful, that I had control of something for once in my life. See what I mean?
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>>25949306
Yet sociopathy is a thing as opposed to neurotical people. So there a duality there, between murderers and non murderers, those who have empathy and those who don't. Those with morals and those without. Which would you prefer to live with?
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Because God said so. Inb4 tippers. This is the only way to have objective morality. If you don't believe in God then objective morality doesn't exist and there is no good and evil.
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>>25949344
sometimes people with ambitions come together in situations where it is kill or be killed, I will never choose be killed just because killing is wrong
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>>25949306
>universal concept of right and wrong.

What the fuck does this even mean? There is no "universal concept of right and wrong". Everyone has a different opinion of right and wrong. You aren't born thinking something is good or bad. You decide how you feel about things based on your life experiences. It's why people still murder each other despite most people thinking it's "wrong".

>>25949344
I still don't think you're a sadist or abnormal. You should feel good when you kill an enemy. He would felt pretty fucking good if he killed you and got away. The only time you should feel bad is when you kill something that doesn't deserve it. Now, what does deserve mean? That's entirely on you. If you ask me, anybody who shot at you deserved to die.
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>>25949407
>empathy determines right or wrong

That is going to get really messy really fast. You're better off tossing the concept and just doing what is logical. Don't worry I won't kill anyone, I'd be caught.
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>>25946446
So those of you who do believe that murder is wrong?

Are you talking about murder in the legal sense or just killing a human?

If it's the latter, is there nobody in the world you'd really rather see dead? I can't even conceive of this.
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>>25946446
>bad
>not emotional

pick one
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>>25949542
If it's the latter, is there nobody in the world you'd really rather see dead?

also, and if you knew you could get away with it you're telling me you wouldn't kill yourself?
Unbelievable.
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>>25949452
Thank you for talking about this with me anon. Most people ask me for stories of heroism. They never think of the effects it has on someone. I really appreciate this talk.
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Your life isn't so valuable that you can choose what to do with someone else's life. You are just as worthless as someone you kill or anyone around you.

Why bother with murder?
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>>25949542
When I think of murder, I see it as killing somebody who wasn't trying to kill me. If they were trying to kill me, it would be self defense and that is the complete opposite of bad.

>is there nobody in the world you'd really rather see dead?

I can't really think of a person right now but even if I wanted somebody dead, I wouldn't kill them unless I had an extremely good reason. For example, maybe somebody kills the person I love. That would be a good reason to murder someone. Revenge for a murder.

Another good reason why murder is bad. It'll just cause more murder.
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>>25949637
Wow. Maybe this is how many people feel? What world is this? Who are you people?

>Killing is OK if the government says it is >motherfucka
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BJ2TLphg1A
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>>25949711
>Wow. Maybe this is how many people feel? What world is this? Who are you people?

Do you disagree? I'd like to hear your thoughts if you do. Do you think people should be able to freely kill each other? Do you think killing under any circumstances is bad? What?
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>>25949481
I didn't say it determined who was right or wrong, I just said they were different and we could decide what was preferable. Sadism vs empathy, neither are wrong but fuck sadists.
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>>25946446

destabilizes peaceful (relative) society.
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>>25949755
Honetly? Yeah.

I'm sure everyone will call me a retard and attack me etc. but yes. That is what I want. I would enjoy such a situation, even at great risk to my own life and even if it's fucking stupid and illogical blah blah blah.

There are probably reasons I could come up with but you'd just ignore them, deny them disprove them whatever.

I want to be able to kill because deep down that is what feels natural and pure to me, and I would accept the risk of living in such a world joyfully and without a second thought. That's the truth. Now call me edgy and fuck off. I'm finished with this thread.
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>>25949862
Well... you could always move to a country where people kill each other en masse. Like Africa, for example. Do some research and figure out where the worst parts of Africa are and then go kill some niggers. I don't know how many you'd get before they chopped you up but it's apparently what you want.

I'm not going to call you edgy because I'm not a fucking normie. I do think you're a wuss, though. People who talk about wanting to kill others are like people who talk about suicide. It's just attention seeking behaviour.
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>>25949862

even if there is no law and no designated party to enforce it, murder still results in others seeking retribution. so you would still have to deal with the family and friends of the person you murdered coming after you.
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>>25946446
Nigger listen, what if that person you murdered in the future would have hlped you or given you money or some shit in the future.
If you kill them, how can they give you shit or whatever.
You just reduce your chances of getting shit for free etc
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>>25949934
>you could always move to a country where people kill each other en masse

I think about this a lot.
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>>25949935
>so you would still have to deal with the family and friends of the person you murdered coming after you.

I've thought about killing my own sister so the senpai thing..

ok deal
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>>25946446

It wouldn't be

But you have to have a reason for doing it

Like say " this is good because of world over popularization" you are doing it for a just cause, but still people will say it's bad and some will agree with you
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>>25949983

the point is there isn't necessarily a difference between designated law enforcement hunting you down or the victim's acquaintences. with law enforcement, in fact, you're in better shape as you may not be killed when caught.
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>>25950090
The people trying to get revenge in this case are trained, armed, and paid troops as opposed to the guy next door who now sees fire in his eyes when you pass by.

I get what you're saying but it's a bit of a difference.
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>>25950143

I mean in the sense that murder rarely happens in a vacuum where there isn't someone still alive and mighty pissed off about it. so, whether there is law or not, you still will face fallout and consequences. murder can never be a-okay in society for this reason.
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>>25946446
Every argument that's about people's behavior is related to emotion in one way or another.

"Should I go to work"
"Only if you want money so you can have a roof over your head and food"
Wanting a house and food to survive is an emotion in itself.

So I guess you shouldn't kill if the consequences of killing someone will make you upset (i.e: Getting arrested, raw guilt, being disliked)

If none of the above bothers you. Then my advice would be to kill as many people as your heart desires.
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>>25946856
GET OUT AND GO BACK TO 9FAG
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>>25948465
But something being good for you doesn't mean the action in and of itself wasn't bad
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