It's pretty much like any other online dating thing. It's a meat market for women to browse the bargain bin filled with undesirable men willing to fling out compliments for the chance to be noticed.
The good looking and successful men on there get their pick of women, but they are just looking for hook ups. Any man below a 7/10 is basically fighting for 4/10 in a 10:1 male to female ratio.
I remember seeing some tests being done with making 6 accounts, 3 male, 3 female, each with 1 attractive, 1 average and 1 unattractive picture. The unattractive and average male accounts got 0 messages over a month (I think a month, maybe a week), the attractive one got 10 or 12 I think. The unattractive female one got about 10-15, the average one had over a hundred, and the attractive one had several hundred in the first 24 hours and hit its mailbox limit before the test ended.
Personal experience though, I met up with 4 girls over the course of a year or so. First went pretty well, but she ended up kind of freaking out and accusing me of wanting to leave her (we'd gone out of 3 dates) because that's what every guy did to her. I kind of liked her to but she pushed me away. Next two the dates were pretty awkward, we didn't really have much in common and just ended it there. The 4th was a bigger girl, like nearly 300lbs (I'm ~180lbs for reference), which wasn't a total deal breaker being that I'm a virgin loser I've accepted I have to lower my standards a fair bit. What was a deal breaker is that she was exceptionally dumb. Like I'd be surprised if she had passed high school. She was also pretty boring, but I guess that was probably due to having terribly low self-esteem, even lower than mine, from being a 300lbs woman and no one ever giving her a chance. I tried but I couldn't do it.
I might try it again, but I'll try POF along with it, and maybe tinder, I don't know. Kind of trying to get over the social anxiety so I can find some groups of friends and date normally.
>>25537727 It is OKC specific though. No-one bothers with the nerdy/geeky librarian chick in real-life while online she gets attention from shitload of people ranging from nerds to studs. She gets attention online, she gets to be picky about who's gonna pump n dump her and then wallow in self pity about how there's no good men left. Meanwhile your typical robot gets flat out ignored by women he would be 100% compatible with IRL.
>>25537569 >met guy who was pretty nice and intellectual >after two weeks of chatting and texting we decide to go on a date >have a nice time and give him a kiss on the cheek before we part >he later texts me if I was bisexual >I say no >he never messaged me back again
>2 years ago >could start up a chat with a girl >would then fuck it up by sperging over some random thing >now >cleaned up my act(I'm less autistic now and I know how to not be a sperg) >only get responses to 20% of the messages I send out >conversation dies within 3 or 4 exchanges back and forth >the girls who dont message back don't even look at my profile fuck it
I've talked to some cool women on there but they always eventually stop talking to me. There was this one girl from Sweden who initiated a conversation with me first and we still talk. She's pretty fucking cool, same taste in movies and music but I'll probably never end up meeting her.
>>25537569 >used it several months >tried updating/sprucing up my profile a couple times >message around 50 girls >get 8 replies back the entire time >2 of them are actually 5/10+, they never wrote back after the first or second message >the remaining 6 are 4/10 or lower >5 of them stop replying after a couple days >the last one turned out to be a psycho tumblr bitch
>used it after being single for over 2 years. >week in meet a chick and we fuck a few times. Doesn't work out. >date a girl for 5 months, break up. >2 days later reactivate and I already have a date for Friday.
She seems cool as fuck. Go for it. You know that phrase you miss all the shots you don't take?
>>25537594 >make a fucking attempt to be original and do something that MAKES YOU STAND OUT
Literally doesn't matter unless what makes you stand out is either really good looks or a lot of money.
OKC just like other online dating platforms is a waste of time unless you look above average. Women won't respond unless your bar is set as low as 40 year old obese single mothers. You are better off seeking catalouge women from east europe or asia than okc.
>>25537569 It will just make you more depressing. I have sent hundreds of messages over the course of a year and have gotten ONE real date. The date was awkward ( probably because I had 0 experience ) and we didn't click.
Now imagine how long it will take to become experienced in dating. Then imagine how long it will take to find someone you click with. And then imagine how long it will take someone that will stick with you. ... and finally someone that is willing to be loyal with you and that keeps clicking with you over a term of more than a few weeks.
It just makes you realize how extremely far behind we are on the curve and how all odds are against us. If you aren't attractive you will only have very little success on OKC even with the unattractive women. Dating websites for us robots are essentially lottery, a few people get to be lucky but a lot become even more miserable than they already were.
>into nothing but obscure books, music, and movies I never heard of >most of them are "artists" working a dead end job
Meanwhile on POF >COUNTRY GIRL! >love muddling and hunting >75 miles away
Tinder is the best out of the bunch. Had a few conversations that died when I gave them my number. Hell even had a few women message me first and not be bots. What is hurting me is the lack of pictures with other people and a good faceshot. I am usually the one behind the camera because I know how to take decent pictures.
Still wondering where all the normal women with OK jobs and normal interests are at.
>>25546411 >the original community of this board before me was just a meme yes this is correct also you misread my post; he used me to get back in the game sorta like a "practice gf" I dont understand why you're trying to defend yourself here have you never once seen the /r9k/ catalog?
I made an account, uploaded a picture, got like 5 messages in the last 6 months.
2 of them from black guys, a few from butt ugly guys, one from a die hard christian who was a self-described "disney fan", and one from a decent looking guy. Texted with the decent looking guy for a few weeks but nothing ever came of it.
Made an account on some gay dating sites too and got like 15 messages from men in their 30's, 40's, etc.
Made a grindr, same situation except a lot of bots and fake profiles messaging me as well.
I've just stopped caring about having any kind of relationship. It's not a reasonable thing to expect to obtain when you're a shut-in.
>made a profile >only got 2 messages >1 from a land whale >1 from a bot >a few girls I rated 4 or 5 starts also rated me either a 4 or 5 >don't know who they were because you need a membership to find out >didn't want to pay for it >those girls never sent me any messages >I'm too much of a beta fag so never sent any messages myself >deleted profile and forgot about it until this thread.
I saw a 7/10 galpal make an account on there, upload a picture with no profile info, and within an hour she had over 15 messages from men ranging in age from 18 to 70. Most of them are one line "hey babe" "lookin' good hun" "mmm i wanna taste you lol" type things, so if you do a decent message that actually shows you've read their profile (but don't make it too long/don't ask too many questions) you've got a good chance of getting a response.
In 3 years on the site, I messaged probably 50 girls, of those 30 actually responded, of those about 10 were actually extended conversations, and of those 2 actually lead to dates and didn't just fizzle out.
First girl I went on date with was a feedee and I wasn't into that, we went out for dinner and then to a bar then back to mine and she got three McDonalds burgers to eat at mine which was stressful as I was scared she'd get ketchup everywhere. I went down on her and she stayed over then we never spoke again after she left in the morning.
Second girl I went on date with I've been in a relationship with for 6 months. So it can work I guess.
>>25537569 You ever see those pictures of prostitutes standing in windows in european redlight districts?
It's basically that, but over the internet, and the girls do the choosing.
You might have a shot if you're either witty (both your profile and messages) and decently attractive. You don't have to be a 10/10 male model, but the better you look the easier it'll be.
I've made two different accounts over the course of 5 years, each one lasted probably 7-8months. I went out with a few girls and held conversations with probably 10, only one of them got past 4 dates (the rest either stopped texting me, or I stopped texting her)
Make sure to have at least a few photos and try to avoid doing any webcam selfies (or anything of you sitting at the computer) - try to have at least one of them outside (you can get a timed camera app on your phone if you have android/iphone) and maybe one "full body" shot of you looking presentable (like a family wedding or something)
As for your profile, set your browsing to "private" and see what the men in your age range have written and write one better than there's. Try not to have much in common with them and at least one "social" activity/hobby on your profile (even if you don't, but don't flat out lie (just stretch the truth a bit))
In the end, just be yourself (no matter how overused/memey that is) and don't lose hope if your first 10 or so messages don't get a response, online dating is a numbers game no matter how you put it.
>>25537569 >girl shows interest on me >talking for a while and she gives me her number >we meet IRL >I think we had a lovely diner >message her the day after >mfw she never ever messaged me back after that diner >feelsbadman.jpg
for me, online dating hasn't gotten me any dates, but it is a nice self-esteem boost (even if you have 1 like, it's still better than wallowing in self pity in your basement), and it has given me the opportunity to practise interacting with people, which i haven't done seriously since high school. i will never bump into these women on the street, so i'm able to talk to them without the fear that my shitty social skills will come back to bite me in the ass somehow. my advice is to do it; worst case scenario is you waste some of your time
>>25549587 but you at least went on a date. she at least saw something in you that she liked enough to meet you face to face. you may eventually find someone who wants to meet you, and likes you just as much afterwards
I liked it too much. Most guys on there are so interesting and cute (i'm not picky about looks), I wanted to date them all. And did, for a while. Messaged everyone that messaged me, but then I started to forget what I talked about with who and their names and everything basically. It was dehumanizing in a way. So I quit it altogether.
So boys, if a girl doesn't message you back or falls off the face of the earth, don't instantly assume it's you. It's the dating game, against your odds, right from the start. Unfortunately.
I made a joke profile where I pretended to truly hate myself and the morbidly obese fat asshole that I am. Was a 25 year old fat virgin loser who lived with his parents, worked a dead end full time night job, and drove a gay car.
Used to get a lot of messages from girls wondering why I was so sad and self depreciating.
Then a really depressed virgin girl messaged me saying she really identifies with my profile. Over the next few days of messaging I noticed our match % went up to about 95%. She had been answering all my questions and started changing her answers.
We started long distance "dating" after a couple weeks, met each other and spent the day and night with each other when I traveled to meet her. Lost our virginities together. It was really special.
>>25552562 I'm trying ;~; it's hard because of medical problems and stress. I have binge eating disorder which I'm currently seeking help for. it doesn't help that I'm living with my parents and they only buy shitty junk food...
>>25552861 figure out what you have to eat for maintainance then eat less than that, it doesn't matter if its junkfood or not. get some nuts and go for a walk every day, chubby. you dont have to go to a therapist http://scoobysworkshop.com/calorie-calculator/
>>25552945 >doesn't understand the basis of binge eating disorder if I count calories for maybe a week (if I can even make it that long) it triggers (forgive my use of the word) a two-week-long binge. not exactly helpful. in 2015 I lost 50lbs and gained it all back. in 2016 I'm going for lose maybe half as much and don't gain it back? hopefully.
>>25553082 sounds like excuses. if you want to whine to a therapist at 100 dollars an hour instead of figuring out something that works for you be my guest. a therapist isn't a nutritionist and measuring what you eat shouldn't trigger you. you're just a fucking glutton
>>25553205 >still doesn't understand the basis of having an eating disorder it's like anorexia but the opposite. instead of fearing and avoiding food, I love it and sometimes go on complete auto-pilot where I'm eating despite being full and telling myself repeatedly that I'm full and don't need any more food. sometimes I've done really well in controlling myself and losing weight, but it always goes back.
it's literally mental illness. don't go calling unnecessary names.
>dyed short hair >nose ring >glasses >aspiring yoga teacher >self-proclaimed feminist >plays the ukelele or banjo (so quirky!) >watches netflix while enjoying a glass of wine on a firday night >loves to travel/wants to travel the world >can't live without coffee >loves cats >fuck kids
It was stupid when the numbers weren't so stacked in her favor. Now it's like posting a m4w on Craigslist and not expecting hookers, trannies, and bots/scammers. The online dating craze is over. The only thing you'll get is lead on by single mothers, or STDs from ugly tinder girls.
I made a profile a few months ago. My only picture was a gross thing I took with a webcam while I was filling out my profile at 3am. I'm pretty ugly and I made it clear I'm uglier in person.
My profile was mostly up front regarding my robot-ness/general weirdness. My hope was that there might be a dorky girl out there who would accept me and that I could relate to (spoiler alert: there's not).
>On a Friday night: >I'm playing video games alone or watching movies with internet friends. >I like talking walks alone at night. >I am 5'7" and very skinny. >Etc.
This was the only robot-ey girl I could find, but she hadn't logged on in over a year.
I don't even know wtf half that comic book/gaming stuff is that she's talking about, but I find it very attractive.
Anyway I didn't message anyone, but during my one active week I received a few from girls who seemed nice. I have no idea why, though the fact that anyone talked to me at all defies some of the cynicism I see in this thread. They had clearly read my profile and commented on the ridiculous shit I said.
Pic related is the only person I had the nerve to respond to. She turned out to be a really sweet kindergarten teacher, and was totally cool about what an idiotic sperglord I am (though I think sometimes she thought I was joking or exaggerating).
Eventually she wanted to meet for lunch and I spaghettied everywhere. I kept backing due to self-consciousness. "You'll hate me." "You'll think I'm ugly." "Let's try tomorrow instead?" She started losing her patience and I think got offended.
I ended up messaging her something meteorically cringey like, "Look I've clearly made a huge mistake. I'm too weird and stupid looking to meet people. I'm very sorry for wasting your time." Then I deleted my profile.
>>25553816 I think being honest I try and move up a number or so but I dont really judge. My current boyfriend Id say is probably a 5/10 but hes like 30/10 personality. He's the most awesome person i've met.
>>25553862 Something that is interesting in the first 5 words and worth opening it. Anything canned or copypasta i immediately ignore. Pull something from my profile or my questions maybe. Anyone who can match my energy or have fun gets my attention really well.
Like looking in my questions I have:
Would you date someone who thought a duck is still a duck even if it doesn't quack? X Yes X No </ It's obviously a llama </ I'd Take the Money
Your explanation E-Z MONEY E-Z LYFE
Respond with something like: "You think a duck with money is going to solve all your problems? YOU THOUGHT WRONG"
I would definitely open that message and you'd have my attention.
>>25537569 >be female >just hit 18 years old >signed up to okc for memes to see if people were really as shitty and offensive as I had heard >get a few propositions to join poly relationships, gross >a few guys message me "please have sex" >one guy messages me from 1.5 hours away >one guy is thirty, very handsome and smart, I would like to go on a date with him but he soon deactivates
I felt bad. He seemed like a robot and if he wasn't so old I would've liked to get to know him. I deactivated after about a week.
I'm a pretty decent looking guy. 6'3", thin but not lanky, decent facial aesthetics, dress well, etc.
Not a virgin/inexperienced either. Had a couple of cute gfs and a couple of relatively cute/hot fuckbuddies... I've fucked a few other girls as well but they were mostly ugly or overweight (I was drunk, they were easy).
I wish there was a way to view guys profiles on OkC without saying I'm interested in men, because I want to see what I'm up against.
I've messaged a handful of girls, with no response (a couple were actually less physically attractive than girls I've dated in the past). I've had "likes," but I can't see who it is because I'm not paying for that a-list shit.
When I browse profiles, it seems like right off the bat a good 50% of the girls are fat or ugly.
I'd say 20% are OK-to-good-looking but are typical basic bitches who think they're the shit, only like what's cool and trendy (meaning they would probably think I'm creepy for not listening to EDM and watching sports games and The Walking Dead) and sound like they're awful to be around. Another 15% are OK-to-good-looking but judging by their profiles they are completely fucking crazy, red flag-raising feminists (Skrillex haircuts, overly tattooed, etc.) or "I SMOKE WEED EVERY DAY FUK U IF U DNT LIKE IT." About 15% seem like they might be decent (and I'm sure all of the other guys on the site are thinking the same thing).
I've seen multiple profiles where the girls OkC pics are all of her face or anything above her tits. Yet the profile is linked to her instagram, and when you go through a few more pictures, you see how fat she actually is.
I guess it makes sense though. Dating is so easy for women so if a woman has to use online dating to meet a man... something is probably very wrong with her.
I'm thinking of trying PoF. People on /r9k/ seem to like OkC, but I actually know people IRL who have done well with PoF, meanwhile I've never met anyone who has done well with OkC.
>>25537569 two dates. one was with a fatty who was a lot bigger than her pictures and nothing came of it. the other was bigger than her pictures, but not HUGE. she was a whore who took me for a ride. said she loved me, and me being the beta that i used to be, believed her and for about 6-7 months paid for her phone, trips to places for her to fuck other guys and generally anything else that was in her interest. i was left with lots of debt, but also a realization that i know what i want and how to be decent at sex.
>girl messages me >fun to talk to, interested in me >we talk for weeks >quickly turns sexual and D/s >first date is Rocky Horror Live >she starts to visit >best sex >two-three months later >gets legit pissed I didn't say "good morning" to her >nope.mpeg >split up >find out she went to a lesbian orgy and gets a girlfriend >occasionally hear from her >eventually she asks to take me back >romantic and kinky as fuck >says something that doesn't gel >she lied >turn her down >no more contact
Did I make a mistake? She was definitely sexy and was everything I was into, but she had a giant, waving red flag. I do sometimes wish I got back with her but if I did, it wouldn't have been long-term positive for either of us.
>>25558271 That's how I looked at it. She was kinda attractive crazy (didn't want me to cum inside but wrapped her legs around me a lot), but that lie...nope. First relationship was filled with lies but I was a naive diaperbaby and believed in (young) love.
But for OKC, it's a crap shoot. I also met a girl who absolutely loved talking to me. We made lists of games, music and movies we had to share with each other. She brought up kinks, I told her some of what I was into and she went fully cold. It was mostly vanilla bondage and d/s play
>>25558487 I use Tinder, POF, and OKC all at once. Managed to get have sex with 2-3 girls per app over the past 5 months of using them. They key of course is playing the numbers as well as proper filtering techniques to ensure you only put effort into higher probability targets.
On tinder, always aim to go for the date best to go for 2-4 days after the texting.
Compliment her, tell her she is cute (do not be wishy washy). Say one thing about her profile or picture (if applicable). Tell her (never ask) that she should meet you at Starbucks (or if there is a local coffee chain, there) at X time in 2-4 days. She will say yes or no (if she says no, ask her for the next saturday. If she still says no, ask her if she has a busy schedule or when she is free. But at this point its generally a lost cause and you should move on). When the day and time is scheduled, say something like "Whats your number, I'll text you" or something generic. If she doesnt want to give it, give her yours.
Do not contact her at all during the interim.
The day right before the meet, text (call if you think she is not busy at the time) her and confirm. Then just say something like "see you tomorrow" and leave it at that.
On the day of the date. I recommend getting there a bit early if it is your first time, so you can breathe and calm the fuck down. Order your coffee yourself when you get there. You will sit and wait. When she arrives, stand up, hug her and say hi, let her order herself (do not be a beta and order for her).
You guys will both sit. I will tell you right now, the most successful dates were ones where I was not sitting directly across from her (if this makes her or you feel like an interview, you lose). Generally I try to sit at a 90 degree angle (the reason will come later).
You will say hi then you will be expected to lead the conversation as a guy, do not let there be giant lulls in the conversation.
You will follow the FORD model (I know its PUA bullshit but it works for first time conversation) this is why you do not talk to her via text or phone, you need to have things to talk about in person.
FORD model = Family, Occupation, Recreational, Dreams.
You talk about each of the four categories in the FORD Model. By the end, 1-2 hours should have gone by. If you cannot think of shit for the four categories, plan how you will lie. If you are a NEET like me, you can talk about volunteer work you did, or you can talk about what you want to do. Dreams are more about like where have you been, where do you want to travel to (most girls like to travel even though I would be content to never travel) etc. Usually following it in F O R D order works well.
During this whole time, you will be "escalating" (I hate the word but i cannot think of another word) your physical touch. Maybe your knees will touch when you get to O or R. One time I had a funny story about a brand new nurse who could not get an IV started on me, so I showed it to the girl (ie initating physical contact). Apparently girls like subtle physical contact. If you are a NEET like me, you can make up some fake job like being a tutor or something. Just for each category, have 1 story or so to tell.
Anyway, if you have been doing this properly, you will have initaited physical touch, whether its knees touching, pat her on the back at first while telling a funny joke (do it tactfully, remember this if you are autism incarnate as me). Have something you have to do in 1-2 hours. Like "I need to go pick up a friend from work" or "I have a family get together". Just so you have an excuse to leave if A. things are going badly. B. you do not want to talk forever and you need to have a deadline. Don't know why but it works.
Anyway as you are walking out, if you have been successful, walk out with her side by side, where you have your hand placed on the small of her back. At the point where you two will seperate (whether it is you walk to her car or you are both going to be walking seperate ways) say that you had a great time and give her a hug. Embrace her in the hug (so if initial hug was 2 seconds, this hug needs to be 4 seconds). At the end of the hug don't let go, just go back, look into her eyes, and you can either say "i'm going to kiss you now" or just go for the kiss. It's a 2 second kiss on the lips, no french kissing shit. Then linger into her eyes for one second and go for a quick peck on the lips again. Then leave, don't turn back, don't pass go, whatever. Wait one day. By that time, she will have probably texted you something like "hey that was fun" or "thank you for a great time" or whatever. If she does, you say "yes lets do it again sometime, say next week at X" and you want to take her to do something, movie, walk in the park, whatever, just something diferent with an activity involved. Again do not text in between. The minute you start texting is the minute you run out of things to say and when you meet in person she finds you boring.
This is guaranteed way. I did it this past summer when i was a NEET (before i got my job) and swiped right on about 1000 girls, got 8 dates, every single one led to a kiss, and 2 of the girls wanted to fuck but I am a robot so obviously spilled spaghetti.
We had late night walk in the park, just talking about life philosophy, and she wanted to suck me off in my car but I got scared and went home and I never contacted her again.
>>25558950 >>25558971 I literally was swiping right on tinder while taking a shit everyday, doing it as fast as possible like it was a game.
A date took 2 hours max. I never put that much time in a date. I never went on more than 1 date per week. So its 2 hours out of my week, and time shitting when I would just be spending that time on 4chan instead.
>>25559091 initating contact is easy I use the same opener for every girl "Hey how is your (Monday/Sunday/Whatever) going?"
Kissing on the first date, the first time I did it, my heart was pounding. I did not fap that day (I normally fap twice a day) so I think that played a part. I also was just at a point of my life where I just said fuck it, I'm never seeing this girl again anyway (i'm a fat 300 lb fuck and she isnt going to want to be with me) so I just went for it. She laughed and said it was cute i was so nervous.
Private area where to get laid - it depends. My strategy doesn't really give time for the first date. On the second date, one time I took a girl to the movies. I kissed her a few times in the movie theater. Could have led to a handjob in the movie theater if i was brave enough (hardly anyone seeing mad max) I have also been offered a blowjob in my car (which is common) If you both get serious you can try to find a time when your parents arent home (or her parents) since you are a NEET you should have the time
Literally fucking no one in my town uses OkC, they're all on PoF or Tinder (which I've never used)
But it all sucks. I used POF. I had a bunch of girls hit the "like me" or "want to meet" button or whatever but when I messaged them they'd never respond. Only one girl actually replied to me and she looked nice in her pics, and we decided to meet up.
>get to coffee shop before her >its busy as fuck >see someone who kind of looks like her pictures walk in >its not her >keep waiting >some fat chick comes in >looks at me and starts walking towards me >oh god what the fuck >she sits down >hey I'm [whatever] >immediately get annoyed but decide to be nice and just roll with it for a bit >mfw I didn't tell her my real name I just used my middle name >we sit and talk and she is not only unattractive, but she is really boring >realize her pics must have been from 4 years ago >eventually get annoyed and just start spouting dumb fake bullshit to see if she believed it >she did >we finish up >she basically begs me to come back to her place with her >decline >sit in car for 45 minutes >delete POF account
>>25559128 Yea that will probably have to do. I want to try the ole drive to a secluded park and fuck em there trick, but so far I dont know any such spots that are reliably abondoned and have to propose the option without scaring them.
>>25559227 one time i had a date where all we did was walk around at a park at night there was like only a few other people and we stopped and stared at the lake and kissed on the bench it's possible, she was feeling me up.
But I have to always spaghetti because I know girls will reject me as soon as they see my 3 inch dick
>>25559217 Feels bro, at least you can look back and be proud you didnt fuck a dumb whale out of desperation.
>>25559253 Yead id always be paranoid some cunt was watching, or worse recording with how easy it is since smartphones. You got enough game to get to that point, fuck em with that 3 each dick like it was a 10ner. I cant imagine most girls backing out at the last second unless it was unhygienic.
>>25559742 I don't want to be all hipster and pretend I fucking love Twilight zone or any of that old shit, but that guy is kind of a faggot for not knowing what twilight zone is. I guess there hasn't been a resurgence in pretending to like Twilight Zone, so this normie has no idea of the show's existence yet...
>>25560164 How is it even hipster to like twilight zone it's beloved nationally and the public stations marathon it literally every christmas season, that and the honeymooners and it's a wonderful life.
>>25537594 >make okcupid account >no messages, just "views" after my replies or one mean "ewww, no!" comment here or there. >make a second fake account with the exact same about me, personality, what I like, height, age, preferences...EXCEPT for the pictures. I used a random male model. >5 minutes after the creation of the profile I get responses >make stupid sexual jokes and women love it. >in another situation, a married woman almost started an affair even despite not actually trying to get her.
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