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What does /pol/ think about spanking/ Is...
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What does /pol/ think about spanking/ Is it traumatizing? Is it bad for the child? Does it work? Is it abuse?
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>>61090439
Spanking like the death penalty is something that is not used often enough

t. Someone who went to school with corporal punishment and got his ass whooped by the vice principal
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>>61090439
>What does /pol/ think about spanking?
Women like knowing you're in charge.
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It works.
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i love to spank teh sexy ladies
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>>61090439

Why not just go all the way in insert if you are going to punish them with sexual acts?
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>>61090439
I was whipped with a stick when i was 5. So were my brother and sisters. We were good kids, then we got strong enough to overpower our mom and we all became lazy pieces of shit.
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When other methods to discipline a child have failed spanking is a valid form of punishment.
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>>61090439
Spanking is fine. In moderation. And when the kid knows why (s)he is being spanked.
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Spanking is for parents who lack communication skills
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Don't hit your children.

Hit your teenagers, they're the ones that need it.
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no spanking
t. Stefan
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I can count maybe 5 times I was threatened with spanking and maybe 3 times my parents went through with it. I never got hit more than i deserved and I always deserved to get hit. I think the important part to remember is never to hit your kids out of anger. If your going to spank them stay calm, don't blind rage smack them. It's punishment for them, not relief for you.
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Daily reminder.
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It's a sign of negligent parenting. The parents who beat their children most are almost always the same who can't rationally explain their kids WHY they can('t)/shouldn('t) do something.

When you feel the necesitty to punish your children, do it passively (for instance, forbid them something they like until X), as active punishment can lead to personality disorders in the adulthood . However, you must know possitive rewards are preferable over punishment (but not always applicable).

And these are all proven facts with which most children psychologysts agree.
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>>61091572
The parents who beat their children THE most*
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I don't do it personally, but I see it as something that can be used if you have exhausted all other options.

The removal of privileges works better, which is what most middle class parents can and should do, however a lot of lower class parents just don't have that option.

Additionally some parents over do it and it turns into a beating. A spanking is not hitting nor is it a whooping.
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VIOLENCE

AGAINST

MEEEEE?
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>>61090439
Spanking is absolutely fine when used very sparingly.

My parents only spanked me once or twice, but when they did it was the ultimate shame.

I think it's actually important for establishing a dominant role as a parent.

Saying "no" over and over again doesn't work all the time. Sometimes you just can't reason with a child. Physical punishment is something they can understand on a very fundamental level.
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>>61090439
Depends on how, and to what degree it is done.
Also, on the age of the child. At certain age, roughly during the early teenage years, spanking is no longer really that effective, and only fosters resentment and rebellion in the child.
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>>61090439
may dad never laid his hands on me, i think we may have hugged after i was sworn in as an attorney and after his father (my grandfather) who were both very close with died. he taught me respect through his actions. there was probably a few time i should have gotten a wallop but he normally let me realize the consequences of my own actions. I turned out way more mentally healthy than the two people i knew whose parents used physical punishment.


also i don't know if its a chicken and egg thing but most people who hit their kids are trashy degenerates/drunks/emotionally unstable, and their kids end up emotionally unstable/trashy degenerates who hit their kids.


have some confidence, act respectably and eventually your kid will too. it just might take them a little while to get there.
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>>61090791
>then we got strong enough to overpower our mom
you little faggot, fuck you
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>>61090883
Why not hit them beforehand so they don't get uppity as teens?
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Studies have shown it increases aggression, instills fear of the spanker, and increases instances of hiding ones bad behavior, rather than stopping the behavior.
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>>61090439
My grandparents beat the ever living shit out of me up until i was 14 (after that i got good at hiding shit) and I consider myself extremely successful vs my peers

So yes it works
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>>61090439
Spare the rod, spoil the child. You should also be whipping them on the back, not the butt so as to inflict the appropriate amount of pain and leave marks that will remind them of how they failed to obey.

t. Evangelical Christian
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>>61090439
Do something bad and something bad happens to you? What a Concept!
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>>61090439
It traumatized me as a child
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Spanking is acceptable, yes, but only to show your child what the consequences are. They learn in the end. But, never hit your child with satisfaction.

If it's your daughter and you're the father, only slap her wrist/hand
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>>61091980
>Why not hit them beforehand so they don't get uppity as teens?


because getting uppity is what teens do. in this era being a teenager means trying on new identities and learning what you are good/bad at. no matter what you do to your kids durring their teenage years they will get uppity, so why turn them into violent assholes who resent their parents for being unable to handle their problems without violence.
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>>61092030

Because those studies were run by shitty anthropologist types. Who probably failed to realize that there's a fucking reason some kids get spanked while others do not.
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me and my 4 sibling all got spanked.
Thought me a lot about discipline and respecting your parents.

but I'm on the fence about doing it to my own children
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>>61092126
You probably got beaten, not smacked
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>>61090737
/thread
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>>61092119
but thats not the concept that a child perceives.
read >>61092048

the perception is get caught and your parents will hit you or dont get caught and everything is fine.
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>>61092179
All children should be spanked because all children are at times disobedient and they should count themselves lucky that they don't get stoned as God commands.
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>>61090439
>Is it traumatizing?
Yes
>Is it bad for the child?
Yes

>Does it work?
No

>Is it abuse?
Yes
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>>61092250
Both, actually
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>>61091572
This, also niggers are spanked as children are much, much more likely to become criminals.
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>>61092048
>>61092030
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>>61092127
when a parent is too mentally limited to design a system to punish bad child behaviour, the only thing left phisical punishment

It's the stupidest way to solve the nurturing problematics, and with no good consequences to build a man or a woman with virtue, as it's the opposite

If parents can't design a system of incentives aimed for the children to have good behaviour always, then they're just another pair of mediocre parents
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>>61092127
>If it's your daughter and you're the father, only slap her wrist/hand
?
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>>61090439
I was spanked with a belt a few times. I was never injured. I think the idea was that it could be used as an ultimate punishment threat to coerce your kid into behaving
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My mother didn't just spank me. She beat the shit out of me on a regular basis when I was little.
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Actual parent here.
There's really only a short period of time when spanking is effective. If you are spanking your kid when they are younger than 18 months, you're doing it too early. They don't understand cause and effect by that age. If you are spanking your kid that is 5 or older, you are doing it too late. You probably should have spanked them more when they were younger. Also, they understand consequences by that age so you can take away privileges or even threaten them with spanking and they will comply, as long as they know you aren't bluffing.
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>>61092504
German german or turkish german?
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My mom used to kick the shit out of me because she was miserable and took her frustrations out on me until i turned about 14, was too big and didn't take it anymore and was rarely at home anymore.

I have a strong distrust of women because of it. Take of this what you will.
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I just laughed at my parents when they went to spank me. They ended up laughing as well so it never worked. If I was grounded I'd sneak out a window.
Yep, needs tougher punishment but no idea what type. You can't punch a child ... Maybe belt across the bum? Children definitely need spanked or they grow up like me. I needed spanked ...
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>>61092603
German
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>>61092527
Concur.
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>>61090439
Fuck off Molyneux, you counterfactual cunt.
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Kids who don't get spanked grow up to be pussies. People seem to forget there are legit physical consequences to being fucking retarded. I love when betas will argue and argue trying to be bad ass linguists. These arguments always draw to a standstill and then you show them what it is to be an Alpha and tear the shit out of all of them. Kids dont understand why they shouldn't jump on the couch because the motherfucker is perfectly designed to jump on. The do understand that if I jump on this couch dad will fuck me up. My old man beat the piss out of me a couple times for fucking up. He also beat the brakes off a couple folks for fucking with me. He was the fucking Alpha.
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>>61090439
>Is it traumatizing?
No. When I was young I was upset I was in trouble not because of the punishment. When I stopped caring the punishment had no control over me and was stopped anyway.
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>>61090439
I have an 8 year old. Never spanked her, never needed too: I can put the fear of god into her with my voice and demeanor alone. However, who the fuck am I to tell other parents how to raise their children?

Some kids just need an assbeating
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>>61092625
I wish there was some fucking place to send dumbass rebellious youths so they can get some fucking dicipline burned into them. My younger sister is out of fucking control. I've pretty much resorted to just telling her she's a fucking dumbass and to fuck off back to her room and listen to her edgy 80s music.
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>>61091463
>this is what the prophet has taught them to believe
>b-but turkey is european, we're a secular western nation, tell them mehmet, tel them we're civilized
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>>61090439
As long as it's only used immediately when the kid really really fucks up.

It has to be used immediately after the kid really really fucks up, if you wait even a minute it's useless.

It also has to be light, strong enough to hurt on impact but light enough so the kid doesn't have lasting pain.

What you should never ever do is beat up your kid, that's fucked up degenerate nigger tier.
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As a Father, spanking your son is a sure fire way to cause him to grow up to be a sissy boy gay faggot. One of my good friends A.J from Jr. High had a Dad who liked to big dick him at home. Always with the "I'm the Man of the house hurr durr I demand respect, I pay the bills you will obey me bitch." all through high school I had to stick up for him because he wouldn't stand up for himself. And about a year after we finished HS I had to abandon him because I saw he was sucking cock in the closet.

Spanking and belittling your daughter is fine desu. But you have to have some sort of mutual respect for your Son. Teach him how to be a Man, not bend over for authority.
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>>61092278
>but thats not the concept that a child perceives
The Child will touch a hot stove twice?
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>Is it traumatizing

Nigga, my father once hit me with a fucking tea pot

>sissy white people
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>>61093188
This how you raise a proper son.
>Meanwhile, the boy's father has to do his part. He needs to mirror and affirm his son's maleness. He can play rough-and-tumble games with his son, in ways that are decidedly different from the games he would play with a little girl. He can help his son learn to throw and catch a ball. He can teach him to pound a square wooden peg into a square hole in a pegboard. He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis, just like his, only bigger.

t. Dr. James Dobson
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I wish my parents would have beaten my ass at least once when I was younger. I think I might be moving in a better direction in life if they had. Trouble was my mom was a mom and my dad was old as fuck so by the time I was 16 or so, beating my ass didn't really seem like an attractive option to him.
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>>61092527
Actual parent here.

I agree with the 18 months thing but disagree with the 5+.

My kids are little badasses and I only get responses from them with the threat of a spanking.

That being said, every kid is different and it's all dependent on maturity.
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>>61090439
VERY DEGENERATE..
I remember even as a kid when I watched American movies and parents undressed their little boys to slap their ass... was totally disturbing.

I received slaps on my face but nothing traumatizing.
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>>61093401
Have you wife or you in you're female had any abortion before the children?
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Is beating a child justified? Spanking is probably okay but what about slapping, punching etc.?

I remember that my mother used to slap me really hard when I lied to her about something. When I didn't understand some things in school especially in math she used to punch me in the gut so hard that I couldn't breathe for a while.

When I didn't do my homework and she found out sometimes I received a beating so bad that I ended up unconscious.

This was pretty normal for me when I was a child and for some reason I absolutely don't resent my mother for what she did to me almost weekly.
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>>61093435
>I received slaps on my face but nothing traumatizing.
Didn't meet your quota of stolen wallets?
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>>61093281
Haha. Tell us
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>>61090439
depends when you use it, how will you scold your kid.

you must be absolutely sure that the kids understands. you for example cannot hit him for holding hands with girl. the kid would be extremetly confused. not only that but the thing you punish your kid might not be the same thing the kid thinks he is taking the punishment for

however, if the kid does something that is life threatening, like going on thin ice on his own when you are near water, make sure he understands how important it is to not on on ice the moment the winter arrives, but only if the ice has firmly settled. might still be unnerving for even thinking of kid going on ice alone, but you are likely to be with him so you have clear vision of him and in hearing distance. cellphones are great for this too.
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>>61093612
Good one, mate.
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>>61093067
I got put in a group with other disobedient children where they tried to teach us to behave and act responsibly. I just laughed at them too and told them to fuck off. It just leads to self destruction and a lot of angry and frustrated people because they can't help.
I'm in my 20's now, living alone but stilll am like a spoiled brat. I'll die this way. I'm happy ...
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>>61093500
No part of your statement made sense
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>>61090439
its supposed to be traumatizing. physical punishment is the quickest to heal, while psychological punishment lingers for a long time. it is very effective if its done quickly after offense. it should not be the first option, but reserved for repeat offenses and blatant disregard of instruction.
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>>61090569
U seen the cost of the death penalty tho?
>>
spanking seems like a bad idea

since 90% of black parents spank their kids, and I don't want to copy niggers

i mean look how their kids turn out
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It's one of those things that I consider necessary but also shouldn't be overused. I think my parents got it right, getting a smacked arse was reserved for those times when you really fucked up as a kid. The number of times I got it is probably under a dozen.
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NEVER hit your daughter
only hit your son
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>>61093188
I think you need to lead by example.

Like if your wife shits on you and you act like a cuck that's how your son will become.

If you keep repeating "I pay the bills which means I'm the boss" that screams cuckness because that's not what being the boss is about. Leading is about being a leader, not a piggy bank.
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>>61092440
she will enjoy it
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>>61093694

When I was an edgy 15 year old, I hit my sister for some reason. she went crying to my father and he went berserk on me and threw the first thing he saw next to him
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>>61093778
He is asking you or your wife (if you are female) had an abortion prior to having your current children.
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>>61090439
addition, do not worship your children, but respect them. when they will be adults they will be at least as wise as average person if you rise him/her well. they deserve to know the truths of the world, no matter how harsh they might be. you give them tools to use at their will, even if they leave them completely untouched. you must be fine with that and not force things upon them, because they are likely to resist or fall under confusion for longest of times.
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>>61093892
That's sexist. She can take it just as a boy can.
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>>61090439
I tried to look this one time and instead came across a bunch of girls with spanking fetishes because their dads used to spank them and they said it felt good, don't spank your daughters, slap them in the face instead or something
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>>61090439
If you are a good father you will never need to spank your children in the first place.
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>>61093732
That's way too old to spank your kid.

Spanking kids is only useful when they are younger than like 5. When they are older there are more effective forms of punishment you can use like normal consequences (go to your room, etc...)
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>>61090439
I think it fucks a kid up in the head. Amy decent parent can get their message across without it.

I don't even have to read the thread to know that /pol/lacks will shill for disciplinary spanking. Note that spanking a kid causes them to do things like go on /pol/
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>>61094141
Lemme guess. You have no kids?
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>>61090831
This
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>>61094250
It only fucks up the kid if you use it incorrectly like if you randomly spank them for no reason or do it too hard or too often.
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>>61090791
Kek
>>
A moderate corporal punishment is fine, the problem is that today is difficult find a woman to marry that can accept this kind of act on the child.
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>>61090439
Go back to /d/. There are forms of disciplining children that won't introduce them to SM.
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>>61090439
I was beat, I think I'm better for it.
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You know what's really wild?

When the kid tries to spank the parent while being spanked. It's a battle of the ass whoopin'.
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>>61094294
not this. kids dont hear what you are saying as much as how you say it. if ur just lecturing them after doing something dangerously retarded ur just giving them a yellow light to do it again.
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>>61091004
not an argument
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>>61090439
I have spanked my son. I've spanked him maybe twice or three times.

I have siblings and cousins who refuse to spank their kids and their kids are horrible little shits as a result.

Meanwhile, they ask me why mine is so well behaved, and I tell them what spanking is and how to do it (it's not about pain) but they never take my advice and their kids are fucking awful.

All social animals have rituals which enforce the chain of command... for lack of better words, establishing dominance. When a child tests his position in your family unit they expect to be put in their place; not doing so is harmful to the child. It teaches them that there IS no family unit, that the child is on their own. Paradoxically, it makes them trust the parents LESS.
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>>61094426
Keep telling yourself that. Whores don't just spawn out of nowhere.
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>>61091463
I'm convinced that all Turk posters are just one proxyfag that gets off to baiting us to hell.
Doesn't stop me from boiling in rage, fuck you roach
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>>61095195
Whores are a spawn of bad parenting mixed with an undeveloped impulsive brain.
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>>61095163
ironically its for their own emotional wellbeing that they dont, has nothing to do with the kid. its literally selfish neglect
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>>61093867
80% of those kids have no dads at home raising them.

So no, they had no chance no matter if they were spanked or not.
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>>61095611
da fuq
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>>61093500
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>>61090439

Fuck off feminist cunt. Yes it fucking works.
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Psychology is overwhelmingly against it, but /pol/ doesn't believe in any psychology except for pop-evopsych.

I don't have kids, but I do have a dog I raised and trained, and was taught to train. He's perfectly obedient, doesn't beg, and won't even touch his food until I say "okay." I could plop a huge-ass steak in his bowl and he wouldn't budge.

Positive reinforcement, repetition in the case of error to show desired behavior, and as a last resort mild negative reinforcement (in my case verbal scolding and gently placing my finger in his nose to show disapproval) was all that was required. If you train a dog using pain, you're going to get a violent animal with behavioral problems.
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There are lots of situations where you can't simply explain to a kid what they did wrong and have them understand what they did or the consequences. Sometimes you just have to spank.

The problem is that you can't have a discussion on spanking anymore because anti-spanking fags think that spanking your child means full-on wailing on them until they're bloody instead of a simple backhand or a couple slaps with a ruler.

Do people seriously believe that 4 year olds smashing all your shit and running around are going to become good kids if you sit them down and give them a time out? Do people seriously believe a child should never be physically disciplined no matter what they do? They're just going to see you as all talk and no bite.
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It should be used to correct dangerous behaviour as a last resort the child knows is coming a mile away. They should earn the ass whuppin.

All this waaah waaah child abuse psychological damage shit is fucking retarded. Since when were kids made of paper? Pretty sure it was the norm for a good hundred thousand fucking years or so, did we not make it out of that time period alive or some shit
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>>61095163
>>61093124
Not an argument.
>>61092761
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>>61090439

Severe trauma can cause problems but simple, quick corporal punishment to a kid who's being a faggot is pretty harmless.

I don't think the ritual of "spanking' is healthy though, you're just going to make your kid a pervert.

it's best to just quickly smack them across the face when they don't expect it when they're being assholes. That usually gets the point across with minimal force.
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>>61095888
>comparing a dog to a child
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>>61093222
This.

Threatened with a spanking was the ultimate thing to make you straighten up in public.
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>>61092335
kek
>>
Not the kids, but the wife gets a maintenance spanking every Sunday night.
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>>61092611
yeah, that's not "spanking" so if the topic was

>Is kicking the shit out of your children for emotional relief okay?

Then maybe it would be relevant.
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>>61096324
Mad at m'trips.

*tips Stetson*

Y'all
>>
Not spanking your kid is more traumatising.

My dad beat me when I did stupid shit. Once I answered the door to this woman who wanted to talk to my dad, and my dad gave me a fairly hard smack on the back of the head for not letting her in.

I look back on that and thank him, because I wouldn't have learned proper manners if he didn't let me know what I did was wrong.
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>>61096755

Hookin for cheeseburgers again I see
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>>61090791
Fucking hot as fuck
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>>61093067
Military school lol

There were 3 shitty drugged out kids I'd known through middle and highschool who were sent to a military school. They were straightened the fuck out and now lead successful lives.
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>>61096788
At least it's somewhat subtle.
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>>61097038
People like you spend your days wishing you had my wit.
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>>61096913
Degenerate.
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>>61090439
>Is it Traumatizing?
Not for me, no. I learned valuable lessons from getting beat. It's also the very reason I turned out conservative.
>Is it bad for the child?
Depends on your kid. It wasn't bad for me because that was literally the only way I could understand what I was doing was wrong. I was a really bad kid growing up.
>Does it work?
For me, it worked. For my brother, it worked. So yes?
>Is it abuse?
Well, what I went through is considered abuse, because my father would punch me, however I was able to hit back. It was really just a means of communication. It's not like I was starved or bonded by my limbs and unable to defend myself. Our fists and hits were words and at the end of the fight I would understand that my father was in the right and I was in the wrong. If I won the fight then he would reconsider the position and then use actual words to establish a new law in the household.
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Was spanked violently as a kiddie and have disformed glutes. Can't walk properly. Then again they used a 3 ft solid wood paddle.
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>>61097417

Muh dick
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>>61093815
The way it should be done costs less than a dollar. Hot lead to the back of the head or a nice long strong piece of rope
>>
I got spanked as a kid it never traumatized me. Mostly because when it came to spanking it was a very clear logical punishment for an action I performed and wasn't out of rage.

The fucked my psychological mind games my parents sometimes played still mess with me to this day however, probably because it's not physical people don't think of the damage they can do by yelling at your kids. My moms parents did it even more to her and she needed therapy over it and the effects are still noticeable.

I was also with a coworker who had extremely abusive parents as a kid, it wasn't the spanking that messed the up it's the words.

Parenting is hard though and people are going to make mistakes, generally though parents aren't making the mistake of beating their kids. Normally it's either neglect or psychological mind games or both.
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>>61091218
>if you're going to spank them stay calm
>it's a punishment for them, not relief for you
DUDE got it
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>>61090439
Make child feel pain when he does bad, he will remember to do good.
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>>61097681
Yeah the mind games were the worst. My mother was a vindictive and condescending bitch. Literally can't put into words how seemed to enjoy it when I fucked up. Made me wish husbands could still slap their wives sometimes. I got slapped as a kid (back of the legs or head) and I don't have any real fear of my father for it.
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>>61090439
The father should be the one to administer corporal punishment.
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>>61098954
I don't think it should solely be punishment when they did something bad. Once I went to secondary school I got very little reward for good behaviour and hard work, whereas I used to get rewarded in primary school and I was always top of the class. Just a few nice words and the matter was forgotten. But I'd get my phone, console and sometimes dinner taken away if I got detention for a few missed homeworks or joking in class. I stopped trying to be good at school by my 3rd year. Don't forget to reward your kids
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if you need to hit your child to make it understand it did wrong i pity you.
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>>61099144
This. If the mother does it, it shames the son even more and makes them feel even weaker. By age 15 you're bigger and stronger than your mother, and you will let her know it.
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>>61099384
That would explain the state of your country. Cucks breed more cucks.

FICKI FICKI OR GTFO
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It leads to girls having a spanking fetish.
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>>61099379
Ofcourse there should be rewards, but fear out of reliving the pain of punishment should definately be there to give them a reason to think twice.

I got hit across the face for not eating certain foods or doing bad in school.
Hitting stopped when I learned to duck and my father broke his finger on the door frame. That was a memorable day.
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Its pretty unnecessary above a certain age. When they are 3 and 4, by all means giving them a couple pops to show who's the boss. Beyond that, its truly a lazy form of punishment that doesn't go far. Now if you have one truly out of control teenager who is begging for some order, then yeah, give them an ultimatum. Follow the program, meet my belt, or leave my house. If you have a messed up teenager in the first place, part of it is probably your shortcoming in the first place.
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>>61099893
I got slapped but I don't think you should ever hit your kids. Especially in the face. My mom did that once and it ended with me sleeping in my grannies and my dad moving out for 3 days. Triggered a lot of pent up shit
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GOD SAYS IN THE BIBLE THAT IF YOU DONT SPANK YOUR KIDS YOU DONT LOVE THEM

THIS IS BECAUSE WHEN YOU SPANK YOUR KIDS WHEN THEY FUCK UP YOURE PREPARING THEM FOR ACTUAL PUNISHMENTS / CONSEQUENCES LATER IN LIFE THEY MAY RECEIVE

IF YOU DONT SPANK THEM ITS TRUE YOU DONT TRULY LOVE THEM BECAUSE YOU NEVER PREPARED THEM FOR THE UNCOMFORTABLE TRUTHS IN LIFE

WHEN KIDS FUCK UP BIG TIME , SPANK THEIR ASS AND TELL THEM WHY. DONT FORGET TO TELL THEM YOU LOVE THEM AND HOW THAT RELATES TO THE PUNISHMENT

TRUE JUSTICE HURTS, GET OVER IT
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>>61100222
Face slapping is common discipline here.
Im thankful to them that they made me know fear so that I could force myself to learn something.

Tough love is best love.
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>>61100937
Cultural gap I suppose. Corporal punishment here tends to be slaps to the back of the legs of one to the back of the head
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I was spanked and now I'm into Dominate BBC sissy porn, so you tell me.
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>>61092127
>show your child what consequences are

so if I skip school, the principle will spank me?
if I miss a day of work, my employer will spank me?
If I masturbate, the local priest will spank me?

hitting your child is stupid as shit and should never be used even as a last resort. It's YOUR child, and a HUMAN BEING. Try fucking instilling morals and reason instead of treating them like animals.
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>>61093612
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>>61102186
>Liberals
In today's age, physical punishment is often exactly what is needed. People are brought up believing they are the greatest thing to have ever graced the Earth. A bruised buttocks can bring such people back down to Earth quite nicely.
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>>61092527
the threat of spanking alone made me terrified of my mother until late 8th grade when she got a call from my principle that I got a fight with another kid. I was already slightly bawling my eyes out when she arrived at the office because I thought she was going to belt my ass for sure when I got home, but when I did get home she just told me I was too old for that and she wasn't going to lay a hand on me again.

Too late though, I still turned out a manchild that's too scared to go anywhere or do anything without his mommy being there to hold my hand and coach me how to be an adult.
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>>61092127
this man gets it perfectly. Any discipline must be for a good cause, and without any satisfaction.
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