>>61054944 I don't think you are getting it. Americans, illegal, naturalized, etc., can't support themselves in the United States working full-time without requiring government assisted Medicaid and food stamps. Higher-earning Americans subsidize these welfare programs. You are paying the difference for what the corporations are not paying their employees, ergo A CEO, tea-bagger, and a union worker are sitting around a table, which has a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO takes eleven of the cookies, then turns to the tea-bagger and says "Watch out. That union thug wants to steal your cookie."
>>61055585 You already posted that grade school econ bullshit earlier in the thread. No need to repeat yourself.
The margins of companies that rely on minimum wage labor's margin is very well documented. They will pass the increased costs on to the customers, reduce their labor usage in the higher cost zone in favor of lower cost or automation, or they'll go out of business. The first, >Inticing low-income Americans to emigrate or starve is not a realistic domestic policy.
And ignoring basic economics on what happens when you dictate a price floor is ignorant at best.
is ANYONE starving in America?
I'm not even necessarily against increasing the minimum wage. But tying it to a "quality of life" metric without considering it's effects on inflation, global competitiveness, and the kind of jobs you want in your economy/the kind of jobs you will outsource is full retard.
>>61056952 No. The majority of us actually understand basic economics and value added labor, and also understand that the 'livable wage' is unsustainable, gives no incentive to over achieve beyond the bare minimum, and leads to economic stagnation. Read a damn economics book for once instead of parroting reddit and Facebook memes like they are facts. Do your research before you look like a fool to the whole board.
>>61057166 >grade school econ bullshit >US department of labor vs 4chan user I'll post it again, since you like it so much http://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster
>pass the increased costs on to the customers Negligible penny costs >Reduce their labor usage in the higher cost zone in favor of lower cost or automation No sources, baseless claim >automation They do that already. See, Walmart >lower cost They do that already. See, Walmart
>They'll go out of business If a company can't survive without paying their full-time employees a living wage, then they shouldn't be in business.
>>61057456 >The majority of us actually understand basic economics and value added labor, and also understand that the 'livable wage' is unsustainable, gives no incentive to over achieve beyond the bare minimum, and leads to economic stagnation. If you live in a conservative echo chamber you start believing these corporatist memes frequently heard on Fox News.
>>61057873 Do you actually understand anything in regards to economics or are you just going to keep repeating your same baseless points? I made clear what a living wage would do and if you took any time to read anything about economics, you would understand my points, or at least come up with some positive debate on the topic instead of seeing everything in black and white where I am some corporatist that drools over Fox news and only speaks amongst my peers. Good analysis based on the fact that I had real talking points and you had none.
Here, I'll help you out. Go read Hazlitt's Basic Economics, then come back and talk with the adults.
They can. Working at walmart full time at 9 dollars an hour is 360 dollars a week before taxes. Times that by 4 for the amount of weeks that fall in a month and you get 1440 a month before taxes and thats if they pay you their companies lowest wage (janitor).
If you insist on working at walmart for a living you have to drop your living standards. The ghetto offers places as low as 360 a month sometimes with utilities. With that you could still afford groceries for a month and a cheap car payment. If you budget right you can even get a cell phone or internet.
People always want to live above their standards. They don't understand the basic concept that to do that you must move up in life. No one is gonna pay you twice the amount you should make because you feel like you should be above yourself.
>>61058926 >Working at walmart full time at 9 dollars an hour is 360 dollars a week before taxes. Times that by 4 for the amount of weeks that fall in a month and you get 1440 a month before taxes and thats if they pay you their companies lowest wage (janitor). Then they get sick and take your money because Wal-Mart doesn't pay them enough to afford medical insurance. They also qualify for food banks and stamps, which is further money out of your pocket. It isn't Walmart's fault, that you are paying the difference between their salary and a livable wage. It is because they are lazy and that is what the people on the TV say.
>>61058926 I make 8.50 an hour and bring home about 1200 each month. I can literally afford everything I own, and I have a roommate to help me out. Literally almost middle class with 2 min wage jobs in terms of luxury.
>>61058627 Seriously, go read something about economics. And in regards to your question, if I paid you $5 an hour to flip burgers as opposed to paying you $10 to flip burgers, you didn't do a damn thing more to get the extra $5/hr. I was forced to pay it to you. You know that I still have to now pay you more and you don't have to do anything above and beyond what your original $5/hr job was. You contributed nothing more to my business and made more money in doing so. People are inherently lazy, so you will still do the minimum work required, knowing that I have to still pay you that inflated rate.
Now as a business owner, I would then seek out other means of production, so now instead of you making $5/hr, I have fired you and replaced you with a kiosk that only costs me $7/hr to operate and doesn't mess things up.
What you are also failing to understand is value added labor. (Again back to basic economics) Flipping burgers (or many other menial tasks) add next to nothing to my business, so why should I pay you more than you are worth (or in other words, pay you more than what you contribute to my business).
Walmart is raising it's minimum wage to 10 dollars on their own. Plus they offer insurance and so does several other sources that are affordable.
I doubt they qualify for food banks. Those are for poor homeless people which I have proven they are not. The food stamps part is because they have more kids then they can afford. It is very hard for a single male to get on food stamps.
So should Walmart dish out more money because you can't keep your shit in your pants? I don't think so.
>>61057873 Hey, I'm just helping you sharpen your argument. If you insist on being such a hostile retard that you're doubling down on an advocacy pamphlet, it's all on you. Just don't be asschapped when the DOL appointees under a republican administration come up with a completely opposite result.
>>61059141 Question for clarity. Are you proposing raising minimum wage and dropping expenditures on welfare?
>>61053986 Paid to do nothing? That has a serious risk of causing inflation and/or incentivising idleness. It's not the amazing utopian solution lefties seem to think it is. (I would consider myself a lefty just not really in favour of universal basic income.)
>>61054109 >>61054266 Government should offer minimum wage work to anyone who wants a job. That wage should be enough to live on. More than half of all poverty solved, overnight.
Telling someone to read about economics is definitely your go-to. Funnily enough, I have studied enough economics and international finance at a university to prove you wrong.
> if I paid you $5 an hour to flip burgers as opposed to paying you $10 to flip burgers, you didn't do a damn thing more to get the extra $5/hr. I was forced to pay it to you. You know that I still have to now pay you more and you don't have to do anything above and beyond what your original $5/hr job was. You contributed nothing more to my business and made more money in doing so.
You are missing two essential points here.
Increasing the income floor for the lowest earners doesn't have any effect on worker motivation. Workers in the United States are generally paid less for their output as wages haven't increased in 10 years to keep up with inflation. I am sure you knew that already, what with your vast knowledge of economics.
>Now as a business owner, I would then seek out other means of production, so now instead of you making $5/hr, I have fired you and replaced you with a kiosk that only costs me $7/hr to operate and doesn't mess things up.
Companies do this already wherever possible. Automation will always be cheaper than employing an actual person.
>>61059141 Raising the minimum wage will lower the expenditures on welfare.
>>61060054 >Government should offer minimum wage work to anyone who wants a job Don't say those kinds of things unless you are referring to the welfare queens in the military. Neocons hate domestic investment. They would rather invest into the military industrial complex.
>>61060348 >Don't say those kinds of things unless you are referring to the welfare queens in the military. Neocons hate domestic investment. They would rather invest into the military industrial complex. Here is how you put it to them: >The unemployed are sitting around doing nothing and not only that, but they are also getting welfare. This policy would take them off welfare and put the lazy cunts to use.
>>61060505 You know why that doesn't work? >The uneducated and lazy shouldn't simply be given jobs and paid with my hard earned tax dollars. They should find jobs in the private sector where they won't have their hands in my pockets. They will always find a way to victimize the poor.
>>61060733 >anyone in any state can do this easily on even the minimum wage This thought process led to McDonalds creating this. Apparently it is possible to survive if you are working two jobs, have no heating, and pay $20/month for health insurance.
>>61060682 Then you should explain to them that taxes don't pay for anything (including welfare or public wages) in a fiat money system. That's not an easy concept for normies to grasp but it's important.
>>61060733 No, he's talking about an actual situation, a worker, which exists, and whether or not they should be able to subsist on their wage.
You're trying to deflect by babbling about resources that a worker might not even have available to them, and tossing out strawmen regarding consumption habits.
because you know that you can not address op's question directly, as ethically it should not be the job of the commons, or any other third party to pay for the subsistence of the labour force of the private sector.
>>61061231 Therefore no disposable income or savings for retirement while working two jobs for the rest of your life. I'd imagine the Chinese at Foxconn manage a more fulfilling life. McDonalds will need to start netting their roofs to prevent jumpers.
>>61053935 If a full-time worker cannot get any of these, he'll find another way to get them whether by working a second job, opting out to fresh opportunities elsewhere, or by turning to crime (be it petty squatting or violently taking).
>>61062650 If a monkey can do it then the boss would just employ a monkey instead. If the job needs a human but won't pay the human a socially acceptable wage (minimum wage) then it's tough luck for the boss. >But then the worker will be unemployed That is a problem in current society because the unemployed are basically shafted. Unemployment is an inflation control buffer stock meaning the system expects anywhere in excess of 5% of the workforce to be unemployed at any time. There are better ways to deal with that problem than lowering min wage and spouting bootstraps rhetoric.
>>61064151 I wish they would diversify their bullshit and make it a little more interesting.
>>61064279 I don't think you understood the question. >a full-time worker This means he is working 40hrs/week (or whatever you define full time as). If he's not working then this question doesn't apply to him.
>>61064252 >raised a family of five on a cunt hair over minimum wage I don't know about Canada, but the minimum wage in the United States 30 years ago could easily support an individual and possibly a family. Since the minimum wage hasn't been adjusted for the steady inflation or increased output, these anecdotes are no longer applicable to the current situation.
This has very little to do with individuals who buy expensive cellphones and drugs, and subsequently can't pay their mortgages. This is about adults, who aren't paid a living wage.
>>61064516 This wasn't 30 years ago though. More like 10. We didn't go without luxury either. We had a fairly comfy life for the most part. No fancy trips or high end foods/toys. But a reasonable lifestyle. I can't help but think that most of the people bitching about the minimum wage have come out of college, with a useless degree, and end up working some shit McJob somewhere. Then they bitch and moan because their standard of life has to drop in accordance with their station in life, and they just can't accept it.
>>61064952 Mill worker in a veneer mill. Shopped for groceries by playing the on sale game. Saved where he could so we could afford the few luxuries we had. Only habits are smoking and drinking. Doesn't touch the drugs of any kind. He's a responsible adult. Unlike most "adults" I see in the city of Toronto.
>>61054326 No, that's wrong. There are limited resources, and the most limited of those resources is living space. The largest expense in most peoples' lives is rent, and this is where most complaints that full time workers "can't live" comes from.
You are not entitled to an apartment in San Francisco. You are not entitled to beachfront property. You are not entitled to live in a college town. This is why everyone bitching about muh income muh inequality is from the coastal Blue states, where the cost of living explodes through the roof because of the premium on realestate in and around big cities.
In parts of Texas you can rent a four bedroom house for what an apartment goes for in Santa Cruz. Don't even get me started on the various middle states. The reason you idiots think that it's impossible to live on minimum wage (to say nothing of the $10 starting that is more common these days) is that you live in a Leftist shithole where overregulation and insane legislation has made living space Yuropoor levels of expensive.
Blame your own shitty legislators for making it illegal to build two story buildings because of muh historic skyline or whatever the fuck, don't bitch to me that your burger-flipping job doesn't let you live in Hollywood.
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