Is the open-source movement more socialist or libertarian? It

well stallman is clearly a communist

>>59979059

Libertarian. Socialism would be state run.

Libertarian, no one is forcing you to use the software and they rely on private charity. Socialism is more akin to closed source freeware.

Libertarian, really.

Okay, I think that open source is one of the cool ideas of our times and wonder how this relates to politics.

>>59979059
socialist, it is available to all and everyone can modify it with no cost whatsoever
closed source is libertarian

>>59979059
it really depends on the version and the liscence.

debian is coordinated anarchism

redhat and suse are pure libertarian.

ubuntu is communism

android is fascism

>>59980711
>android is fascism
That's right.

>>59979152
false, he stated so many times he doesn't mind you selling software, as long as he can fix it, that's the heart of free software.

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>>59980711
don't include android as an example of free or open software, it has been long since google changed that.
>>59979152
oh, btw, stallman is openly and loudly against the open source movement, he's for free software, not open software.

>>59979244
Socialism is force, I think the logic would be: libertarianism, no one is forcing you to make software, and no one is forcing you to make open source software. Just like charity isn't socialism, charity is fine, what IS socialism is forcing you to do "charity"

It is about freedom, so obviously libertarian. [Govern]ment is the enemy of freedom.

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ENJOY YOUR CRAPPY OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE FAGGOTS

>Open source community hasn't come up with a better audio player than foobar2000
>Valve games on linux run worse than on windows, despite valve's efforts
>Shitdroid phones are inferior, and are badly programmed (it's why even with worse specs, iphones are so much smoother)
>autistic names such as beefy miracle

>>59983710
Clementine was a good audio player like iTunes.

I think it's both finally:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

>It criticizes wage labour relationships within the workplace, instead emphasizing workers' self-management of the workplace and decentralized structures of political organization.

Also, check the historical meaning of the word 'libertarian'. It will make you right-wingers chuckle:

>Joseph Déjacque (French: [deʒak]; December 27, 1821, Paris – 1864, Paris) was a French early anarcho-communist poet and writer. Déjacque was the first recorded person to employ the term libertarian (French: libertaire) for himself in a political sense, in a letter written in 1857 criticizing Pierre-Joseph Proudhon for his sexist views on women, his support of individual ownership of the product of labor, and of a market economy, saying: "it is not the product of his or her labor that the worker has a right to, but to the satisfaction of his or her needs, whatever may be their nature."

>>59983935
It's okay, it still lacks the power of foobar tho.

>>59983710
Nvidia and Intel never releases their sourcecode. AMD is the only way to go with Linux and other operating systems that are opensource or GNU.

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>>59982758
>stallman is openly and loudly against open source
No he's not. The fuck is wrong with you?

>>59985383
In regards to this guy, I think he resembles a classical libertarian. Definetely not a communist as someone suggested.

>>59979216
m8, socialism is about workers controlling the means of production. That literally just means people being paid for their labor, instead of an owner being paid for other people's labor. It has nothign to do with the state m8.

>>59985471
https://youtu.be/FpAKasXdrXI?t=2m49s
cry a bit.

>>59985524
>ID:NOG
Color me surprised.

>>59985471
>>59985717
its at 2:49

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>>59980510
Pic related.

>>59984744
Even with AMD linux performance is still worse than windows

>>59982472
Isn't the point of free software not that the seller can fix it, but the buyer can fix it?

>>59985761
Lol. The pinnacle of 'free' software.

>>59985870
True. Actually NVIDIA performance is marginally better on Linux funnily enough. No idea why.

>>59985987
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/11/ars-benchmarks-show-significant-performance-hit-for-steamos-gaming/


????????????????????????????????

>>59985884
The sellers sells you something, but you can fix it. They could sell you their own version of Linux that has revambed artwork and proprietary wallpapers for example.

>>59979059
Did you ever read the CC and GPL licenses? the free market is entirely allowed in the open sauce world, there're even jewish-tier developers who say you MUST pay for their free software (see the eOS articles about "cheating"), but that's just a small autistic slice anyway, most people don't care.

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>>59985904
Then there's pic related.

>>59979059
literally nothing about it is socialist.

what are you on about?

>>59985884
Not exclusively. Stallman gives an example where his company had to use a printer with faulty software, and he just wanted to fix it, but couldn't because they didn't provide the source code, and it would take forever for the actual seller to fix the bug. That experience drove him to the point of break. Sell your software all you want, as long as you don't make silly barriers.
I love GPL2, which states that if anyone adds features that you want with your code as base, they have to give the changes back, meaning they get the advantage of having all the base code, and you get the benefits of practically free development.

>>59986159
Well, it bypasses the traditional corporate model in favor of a community approach.>>59986184

>>59985750
>>59985717
He's annoyed by that because it, like every other introduction, diminishes his work.

If you continue to listen to him he talks about freedom and that includes the owner having access to the source.

His distinction is that the person purchasing software should have access to the source code.

The natural progression is that it will become available to everyone, even if he doesn't want that.

If you buy a copy of photoshop, you should be allowed access to the sourcecode. That's his point.

He just doesn't agree with the sourcecode for software being freely available to anyone and everyone. But the reality is you can't stop that.

>>59983710
I don't know about Valve's games but don't get me started on the shitty performance of Unity hames on Linux.

>>59986060
Yeah what does it say about Nvidia?

>>59986149
That's socialist OS.

>>59986286
He is openly against the open source movement, that's what I said, and that's what he said.

>>59983710
>Deadbeef
>Games. What are you fucking gay?
>This is wrong
>What

>>59986141
I know that, that's why it's a "debate".

>>59986488
I'm saying he's not because he's naive to the implications or willfully ignorant of them.

What he wants would invariably lead to a slide toward open source. He can say he isn't supporting that till he's blue in the face, but it's just the natural progression.

He also espouses systems where a journalist can meet with a politician completely anonymously. Which would essentially mean you could not police software. Because everyone would be in control of their own systems and spyware wouldn't be possible to introduce.

I don't think Stallman is as stupid as you're claiming he is.

>>59986286
Even if the owner had access to the source he wouldn't get access to third-party libraries that tend to get used during software development. Without those libraries that source tends to ne useless for compiling.

Libretarian at first, socialist when SJWs start to ruin it

>>59986878
Please don't go into that, let's just say what it is in principle.

>>59986697
I think he knows a deal more about software movements than you, you are simplifying the open source movement. Stallman knows all the open source's core principles, and doesn't agree with them. Don't bother answering, I got tired and you don't seem to understand.

>>59986958
I don't think you realize we agree on this subject. I'm just looking down the tunnel and you're looking at the entrance.

>>59986272
private people doing private things and releasing it in a way they privately desire.

If someone is forcing everyone to release their source code or otherwise making public decisions about private matters it's not socialist.

>>59986496
It shows how unsociable the FOSS community is when they come up with names such as "beefy miracle" for their software versions. Macintosh stays with cat names and stuff like yosemite, which is classy for example.

>>59983710
Actually OpenGL performs better on linux at least on AMD GPUS
Go sleep

>>59987075
What you're doing is:
>me: Im not a feminist
>me: I agree in equal rights
>you: then you're a feminist, because feminism is believing in equal rights
obviously the problem here is that to one person feminism as a movement carries way more than just equal rights, and you would be simplifying it by saying it's just that. And that I HAVE to be a feminist if I believe in equal rights, even if I openly state I am against feminism.

Socialism in software isn't all that negative because you don't steal the original.

>>59987247
OpenGl is optimized for linux, but graphical drivers aren't. That's why DirectX performs better than OpenGl. Not trying to belittle linux, that's just what happens when the market is on so huge on the windows side, because of good marketing + inertia + costumer ignorance.

>>59987394
I'm not arguing a definition. I'm arguing the implications of the actions.

By distributing source code, you'll get source piracy. It happens with movies all the time. Someone gets a movie they paid for legit, or through a screener system, and they release a rip online.

It's just how people work. There will be no one forcing you to open source, but everything will become open source regardless.

>>59987099
What's your point? How does socialism exclude
>private people doing private things and releasing it in a way they privately desire
?
That's exactly the reason it was founded, in opposition to a king or businessman making you work for them with ni decision over your product or how you work.

>>59987697
>By distributing source code, you'll get source piracy. It happens with movies all the time
thats fucking ridiculous. You know to what it happens all the time? FUCKING SOFTWARE, people who pirate don't care to compile shit from source, they just want the binaries. And you can pirate closed source just as well as open source.

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>>59979059
>Is the open-source movement more socialist or libertarian? It could go both ways imo.
It's just a technological necessity.
That is all.

Open-source is completely apolitical. See it as an effort in standardization, if you want to.

>A co-operative (also known as co-op, cooperative or coop) is an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly owned and democratically controlled enterprise.

This describes many open-source project and combines both socialist and libertarian ideals for production.

>>59987555
DirectX is gonna die anyways.
Mantle and the new intel api i forget the name will take over.
Im actually nvidia fag but mantle will change the game dev industry since the focus is on programmers to fully optimize low level code so the GPU performs better.

Not to mention it will be supported by linux since they hired some fags
Gonna be good

>>59985496
>I think he resembles a classical libertarian.
read his website

>>59988140
Don't know if I'm too happy with that, I'm quite fond of developing in GLSL, don't know if I want to learn a new graphical specification...

>>59987980
I don't know why you're raging against me. I'm saying more private access leads to more public access. Doesn't make you satan for believing otherwise.

Whether it's 1% of the total, or 10% of the total, it lurches upward and the closer to the tap people can get, the more they'll do it.

We may disagree on end points, but I'm not putting faith in people stopping.

>I bought this copy of photoshop and it's doing X/Y
>post your source and I'll help you with your problem
>suddenly photoshop is public access
It'll be slow to start and then ramp up as more dependencies become available.

>>59988273
Is he.. a Nazi??

>>59987767
>>59988125
uh, how is this at all different than any other business?

>>59988315
At least they are not stubborn about co operating

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Just guess how 4chan would look like without open-source. And now riddle me this: do you think this was a politically motivated decision?

>>59988409
Try to compare Microsoft Windows with the Debian Foundation. From a development standpoint and a consumer standpoint. Don't you see any significant difference?

>>59988348
Not raging, not a lot of ways to emphasize words without sounding like shouting...

I don't know that's how source bought software should or would work. But sometimes it sounds like he's saying so.

>>59988348
Well that's a stupid analogy
Btw piracy is not downloading a movie through torrent.
There was a study reporting that torrent "piracy" actually gives more revenue long-term since its a good exposure method.(since people often share torrents)
That's how metallica ramped up in 2008 when "they leaked" their own album.
W.e if you want more story just search for the topic on the tek

>>59988523
I think it will still be some years until you can use it professionally, don't think it has a lot of backwards compatibility.

>>59989108
The game dev industry will and is already growing fast for linux.
It will take time for more enterprise software and replacements for Photoshop and such

>>59988979
That's a great way to rationalize theft, anon.
Just like saying wealth redistribution helps rich people because there will be a healthier consumer base. It's all fine and dandy, if what you want to do is convince them to redistribute the wealth, just state the ways they'll profit from it, and as they are sane, they'll agree. The problem is that what the socialist wants is to steal from the rich, as the pirate just wants to steal from the content creator. If it's a good marketing tactic to distribute material for free, convince the one who worked to make it to distribute it for free, don't steal it.

>>59989356
Downloading a movie is not stealing, its copying.
And i think you kinda missed the point, anyways goodnight, you can find these raports online.

>>59989556
I wasn't the anon you were previously engaging with in this stream of dialogue.

>my games won't work

Grow the fuck up, you fucking retarded children. If you seriously worry about playing fucking manchild video games then just stay on Windows and have every single thing you do logged with absolutely zero freedom.

Most of you don't even understand freedom anyway since you want a blowhard tyrant in charge. Fuck you, the founding fathers make mountains above their fucking graves.

>>59980679
But not as mandated by the state.

Its an individual or collection of individuals working on something and doing with it as they will. Whether its for money or not, its libertarian.

I am running my business site on a server that has had thousands of programming hours put into it by strangers in the community and in addition to getting it for free, I have every right to alter it as I wish. Is this standard business practice for your products in the current economy? No. It's different. That's why we're talking about it.

>>59988979
>implying I was talking about the economic benefit or if it's even good/bad
K.

>>59979059
I don't know, but either way it goes it's still complete shit

>>59980679
>>closed source is libertarian

Wow that is the exact polar opposite of reality. Congrats!

>>59989769
The state doesn't come into this. Groups of individuals doing creative stuff together dates back to the ancient times. It's not inherently anything. But the community as a whole advances the bargaining power of the consumer, so it's slightly socialistic as in not-pro-big-business but pro community-shared instead.

>>59989780
That is something that can happen whenever what you're selling is information, given that there is a way to verify the stranger's contribution to a minimal error percentage. What areas can this work in? They're rare, in the physical realm, but not in the virtual one.
For example: Novels
>information? check
>verification? no
You can't trust strangers to write your novel for and keep true to the rest of the book.

>Wikipedia
>information? check
>verification? yes
Wikipedia works from free contributions, because it does have verification, that minimizes the risk of errors.

>software
>information? yes
>verification? yes
test cases, and compilation errors can just remove most problematic contributions to the code.

Freeware could be seen as 'charity', whereas open-source is ethically (and practically) superior in that it is also collectively administered, based on merit and not money or ownership titles mostly.

>>59990254
Socialism is force. Which is the only problem I have with it desu. If you tell me:
>I agree with socialism, but there is no threat of violence or infringement of nature-given individual freedoms.
Then I'm fine with it.

>>59990432
Then how would you distinguish it from charityware? vim for example, which encourages you to give money, but it goes to charity

>>59990494
I am referring to pre-20th century conceptions of socialism, before Lenin essentially.

>>59990687
Socialism has never not been about force.
PC out of battery now, will check this thread's archive later if you want to respond, but I won't post again.

>>59980711
I can never spell lisence either :/

Sounds like you have a preference for how software is built and distributed and are calling that socialist.

No one is being stopped from their preferences, so it means nothing. call it whatever you want.

>>59991103
It's exactly the opposite. I like this mode of production and distribution because (I think) it's libertarian/socialist, depending on definitions.

I love open source software for one reason. Open source software is a perfect example of why communism/liberalism would never work in the real world. Whenever someone tries to tell me their retarded hippy liberalism fantasy I just tell them to look at any open source software. The open source version will be buggy, have a terrible UI, and be completely unusable compared to paid alternatives. Open source proves why western capitalism is the only system that will ever work.

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>>59991925

For clarification: Libertarian/Socialist is not an oxymoron. In fact, the term "libertarian" was first used by a French anarcho-communist back in 1857 to describe himself (an anarchist). The modern term libertarianism (economic freedoms) was originally called liberalism. The term "libertarian" describes liberty (thus, the term is also used to describe metaphysical liberty within philosophy and metaphysics and not just the economy), and the term socialism describes a society in which wealth is fairly distributed. Thus, it is neither a literal nor a practical contradiction.

A libertarian socialist would argue that a society based on such huge disparities of wealth is unfree. If you wish to enter into employment, you choose first and take orders later (as with liberal democracy). >Libertarian socialists believe in voluntary association and economic democracy. This will allow the individual to reach his/her full potential.

The above is what draws me into free software.

For anyone confused about free software vs open source, and Stallman's opinion on matter, this was a pretty good read
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

>>59991925

I bet you buy Norton

The obsession with a bearded know-it-all alludes to something..

>>59992176
Kaspersky, which has a higher detection rate than any free alternative. Surprise, surprise, you get what you pay for. Software made for free will NEVER be better than something that is paid for because good developers don't work for free. The only open source software that is actually usable has paid contributors. So please don't reply with your linux memes. Thanks.

>>59992492
What's funny is that multi-billion companies daily rely on open-source servers to do their jobs. Which also brings to my mind: This isn't socialism in any revolutionary sense. Just a necessary adaptation of capitalism to widespread needs.

Or it's just as revolutionary as a hipster co-op organic coffeeshop. Surez the working conditions are a little more informal and maybe you cash in more than working at Starbucks. But you're still a cog in the machine in the grander scheme of things.

>>59979059
What political ideology would the WTFPL license be?

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>>59993405
>What political ideology would the WTFPL license be?
Funny, but not useable. Like at all. No company is ever going to use software released under the WTFPL. And I repeat: you guys are all dicks, because open-source got shit to do with politics.

>>59993405
Sounds like liberalism tbqh.

>>59993644
It doesn't have much to do with ideology, but it has to do with economics. It's not entirely random that this it's booming now. Also, generally picking a communitt-driven product over a strictly consumer product, is kind of a political every-day choice.

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>>59994084
>communitt-driven product over a strictly consumer product
Yet another false dichotomy. Hell of a lot, and probably most important, open-source projects are not "community-driven" by some random people that form some hippy circle, but by professional developers employed by companies that rely on said open-source software.

What about RedHat? Does that blow your mind?

>>59979152
stallman is not against business in software

Free, not as in free of charge

he has repeated this a billion times.

>>59986286
>If you continue to listen to him he talks about freedom and that includes the owner having access to the source.
Yeah man, still he firmly believes that software should be free as in speech, like it should give you liberties, including accessing the code.
Like all free software is open source, but not all open source is free software.

>>59985524
>>59985524
>m8, socialism is about workers controlling the means of production.
and how do you enforce that you idiot?

>>59989700
I have a bone to pick with linux distros, and it has nothing to do with games.

first and foremost, they universally struggle to integrate core features that you would expect a modern desktop computer to have.

Want to change your power manager settings? good fucking luck buddy, Mint, SUSE, Lubuntu, and ubuntu all have a bug that will eventually break the power manager on a desktop and get you stuck with what ever settings you have at the time it breaks. You manage to have the default 5 minute sleep timer set? You're completely boned if you look away.

This brings me to the display manager, in more than half of those distros, plus debian base and fedora/redhat, upon wakeup your display has a chance to be some form of COMPLETELY FUCKED, whether that means your display is half on the wrong side of the screen with a black border in the middle of it OR your display shrinks to 800x600 doesn't matter it's still fucked.

time synchronization is prone just fucking off into oblivion with no way to fix it without manually resetting after plugging the power back in.

But as long as we're talking about windows too, let's point out the irrational and completely autistic level of closed source package aversion. You know where Microsoft puts the free version of visual studio with all the basic bits that make basic coding possible? They hide it under the Products tab of their website so they can upsell their subscription products. Meanwhile, over at debian the version of debian that actually has all the packages necessary for a working desktop isn't even listed under the directory that lists the .iso's, in fact, the very first functioning .iso listed doesn't have the necessary tools to open and install their own .deb packages, you can't even reach the required directory /releases/stable/debian-installer/ to download the working .iso from the front page.

>>59994307
You think I don't know that?

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>>59994996
>You think I don't know that?
Absolutely.

>>59994563
he is still a communist. just look at his homepage stallman.org, it's full of muh bernie sanders muh strong unions crap

Yet there are simple programs that you can share with your friends, online or offline, free of charge or not, and I'm saying that doing it yourself or within your community if possible, is a political choice. I wasn't talking about Mozilla being my friends.

>>59992492
i bet you pay for porn

>>59995098
I've heard him in his prime say that his ideas don't go against capitalism. And that's honest. They just sound edgy because of his persona but he really doesn't hold crazy positions.

>>59979059
Libertarianism. They put in the work of their own free will, and give it away for free. No one is telling them to do the work and then taking it from them and giving it away without their consent.

>>59994978
I switched to Linux a few weeks ago. When I was reading things about Linux distros they were all like
>we only add stable packages to our repos, because we care about stability
And I was like 'cool', it's gonna be a real smooth experience.
That was very wrong.
Still sticking with linux for work related things though.

>>59994978
on one last note, as long as we're talking about windows comparisons, and video games

if you have to reinstall windows and are using steam you copy the game files folder, put them in an external drive and then after you have reinstalled paste the folder and verify the files. With any linux distro if you have to reinstall, say after it breaks and fucks your power or display manager, you have to re-download your games, copy and pasting won't work and will throw invisible errors that'll take you longer to patch yourself than it would to just re-download the game even if the game is 10gigs

>>59979059
Depends on the liscense.
Gpl is commie.
Bsd and mit are libertarian.
Bottom line read the terms

I have personally encountered more weird bugs in Windows, but at least they run my games. If you get used to Linux, Windows architecture seems to you very weird and unintuitive. What I do like is how you can see the installed applications with one-click and uninstall them wirh anither.

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>>59983710
>Open source community hasn't come up with a better audio player than foobar2000
The open-source community created FFmpeg, the multimedia library used by basically every multimedia project currently in existence, include Foobar2000. Making a little music player GUI is trivial, and there are plenty of them on Linux. Just because they aren't identical to Foobar2000 doesn't mean they're inferior, and without the open-source movement, you wouldn't have anything.
>Valve games on linux run worse than on windows, despite valve's efforts
But that's wrong, you faggot. Pic related.
>>Shitdroid phones are inferior, and are badly programmed (it's why even with worse specs, iphones are so much smoother)
Can't argue with that. Good thing the only open-source component Google uses for Android is the Linux kernel, and everything else is Google's awful shitware.

Enjoy your proprietary software that spies on you, shares your information with the government, offers no way to check whether you're installing malware, limits you on purpose in order to protect other peoples' interests, and explicitly forbids modifying your software to suit your needs, you stupid cuck.

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>>59983710
Bend over and say "Ahhhhh"...

>>59997417
>I am literally a fucking retard who can only asspull a single game with fake benchmarks

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/11/ars-benchmarks-show-significant-performance-hit-for-steamos-gaming/

>>59990189
>shutting off your software from everyone else and making people pay a fee to access it
>somehow this isn't libertarian
wew

I hate discussing this because it all turns to
>muh games
>linux vs windows
in the end in turns into a huge circlejerk where the least important thing is actual software development. Having a serious discussion in 4chan and specially on /pol/ is rare anyways.

For me just having access (even just to look) to the source code is blissful. It makes coding / feeback / issue tracking million of times easier. Honestly it's a non-issue for the average user since they don't care about this stuff, they just want a functioning piece of software, but a developer wants his life made easier, propertary code just makes consulting a pain in the ass.

>>59979059
It's more libertarian if anything.

Socialism / Communism still, by it's very nature, requires a governing authority to decide what is best, how things are distributed, etc.

This is free market capitalism at it's finest. The most powerful ideas win. However restrictions by the creator of the open source exist, sometimes even preventing any profit to be made what so ever. If such a restriction bothers you, there is no reason you can't go somewhere else.

It's capitalism using the best parts of capitalism to prevent a the worst parts of capitalism.