Ask me anything about Hong Kong's protests.
No, they actually aren't. Beijing is in charge of Hong Kong, though Hong Kong is under a "one country two systems" policy.
Beijing was going to allow Hong Kong to have universal suffrage but revoked their decision. And thats why the citizens of Hong Kong are flipping shit.
I actually don't fully support the movement. So no, theres no plan for myself. However, the people have fucked up by destroying Hong Kong's economy, if that's what you're asking.
>I don't care, but here's my response to your post!
Democratize Hong Kong.
I am on the side of the Umbrella Revolution.
I have solidarity with protestors for the democracy.
And it most likely will destroy Hong Kong. Rumours have it, China may be tempted to send the Chinese military to derail Hong Kong's democracy movement. Hopefully it doesn't happen.
Hopefully it does die down before shit gets serious. But then again, this is the most persistent I've ever seen Hong Kong.
I don't think they will, there's a riot squad placed outside the government buildings in Tamar.
When the riot squad started using tear gas on Saturday/Sunday, even more protesters joined the crowd and occupied the major roads around the gov HQ.
>using tear gas but not pushing up while protesters are suppressed
>cops wasted 87 tear gas rounds and gained nothing but their own humility
這是他的意見。 我的意見是你是一個肛門。 吃屎大陸人。大陸人不應有一個意見。
Sorry, my Chinese is kinda shit.
The truth is, the protesters attacked the police with their umbrellas and taunted them, attempting to instigate a fight between them. As a response, the police did use tear gas and pepper spray on the people, but only under the harsh situations they were in. It's not as peaceful as people say it is.
>The truth is, the protesters attacked the police with their umbrellas and taunted them, attempting to instigate a fight between them. As a response, the police did use tear gas and pepper spray on the people, but only under the harsh situations they were in. It's not as peaceful as people say it is.
Protesters used umbrellas to defend themselves from pepper spray AFTER the police first used them on Friday.
Guys. Please support #occupyhongkong
Send words of motivation to Hong Kong! Support Democracy!
From what I feel like is happening, a lot of students are stirred up by emotions instead of genuine proper reasoning.
I tried to argue with my friends about why this movement might not be in the interest of hongkong and china. But almost 90%+ of my friends immediately disagree with me and make irrelevant claims about me.
I believe this is going in a terrible direction, but what I really believe is that there's no way almost every student in hongkong would truly understand what they're doing and pursuing.
All I want is some unbiased opinion on pol (at least compared to hk people now), but what I get is just a bunch of hongkongers promoting their agenda. I'm fking sick of it
I don't support it. It's fucking stupid that they think the CCP will even change the decision and they think damaging their own economy will somehow change things or constitutes as struggle. It's completely unnecessary and may actually backfire because it lowers the CCP's opinion of us.
Here's your proper reasoning:
I can relate. This exacte same thing happened in istanbul. The students all over the nation went nuts over nothing, the riots allowed gangs and street mongers to raze and loot shops and even houses. Youth are so pushed by emotion, they cannot think about the consequences of their actions.
Yes, that's true, But the people also gathered rock and threw it at the police, smashed the windows of a police van, and vandalized the freeway.
Regarding the first use of the pepper spray, it was used to create space between the police and the people, who were intentionally surrounding the police and harassing them for doing their job. Eventually, it escalated to the mentioned situation.
And the police did hold up signs to warn the people of the use of pepper spray and tear gas.
Pic related, some vandalism.
False. There was not a single rock thrown at the cops. Water bottles however, yes.
They also clean up afterwards.
Who's funding the protests? The NED, Open Society Foundations, The US Department of State? All of them?
No, caps from water bottles.
But here's your carton of rubber bullets/baton rounds.
>no evidence to proof i am lying
it's about democracy. Hong Kong people want to not be China and want to be living in peaceful time before the handover in 1997 to China government. We prefer the British Government because they are western and not Chinese COmmunist.
Trying to fight communism with democracy is just foolish. British rule or ccp rule, both the same thing. China needs to recover it's traditional values and culture. You, are not contributing.
Why should they? Did the cops go pick up every tear gas canister they fire?
This goes both ways. Prove that the protesters used firearms against the cops, since you brought up the argument.
But HK people dont want to be Chinese. We want to be Hong Kong.
Sure HK people are ethnically (Han) Chinese majority. But we do not like to associate as being a China "country". At least as British Colony, we can be a western government. But now we belogn to China, we do not like.
Want independent like Taiwan.
You go up to any HongKong man and ask if they are from china, they say no and get angry. They say they are Hong Konger, not Chinese.
We don't want to be communism.
Because there is a significant difference between vandalism and littering.
>But HK people dont want to be Chinese. We want to be Hong Kong.
Which is what I don't understand at all. And I don't like it. I want the good old china back, with its own government and culture, not this communist maniacs or the western rapists. Hong kong has power, but it uses its power not to help china, they only think about themselves. Even if they dont want to be called chinese, they should at least respect their roots and accept chinese people as their neighbour and help us get rid of this disgusting comminist rule.
But I guess this will never happen. They're bunch of students anyway. Im just a dreamer.
The protesters did wash off the graffiti afterwards. Some of them at least.
they're not washing off grafitti. they're clearing the streets of rain water so they can rest their asses on the pavement.
0/10 nice try.
Don't you know? It's not cool to be Chinese. I'm assuming you are from Hong Kong, or a Hong Konger outside of Hong Kong, so I won't say much. But considering how Mainland Chinese people literally shit on the streets and have bad manners, these are some of the reasons why HK people don't want to be catergorized as "China Chinese" people.
In the eyes of China people, they think Hong Kong people want to suck British Dick.
The graffiti linking Central and Admiralty on the flyover is still there, last time I checked.
And that picture was taken on Monday, so no, I don't believe that they've been washed off.
>But considering how Mainland Chinese people literally shit on the streets and have bad manners, these are some of the reasons why HK people don't want to be catergorized as "China Chinese" people.
I agree with this fully.
It doesn't make any sense for Hong Kong to be independent from China like Taiwan. We don't have resources to be independent nation. Hell, 80% of our resources (water, gas, tourism dollars) is from Mainland China.
Besides, if China wanted to, they could literally send tanks and PLA to come to Hong Kong and censor the fuck out of Hong Kong. It will make China look bad but Hong Kong will be fucked in the ass.
>It will make China look bad but Hong Kong will be fucked in the ass
This will happen one way or the other. Now, or in 2047.
Hong Kong will die. But it could potentially take the rest of China with it. If Occupy Central forces the Central Government's hand, we could be looking at Tiananmen Square 2.0, and this time everyone has cellphones and cameras on their persons to record every gory detail.
Certainly the American and British Chambers of Commerce will try to get back to business as usual as quickly as possible and make nice with Peking, but it will be difficult.
For one thing, Hong Kong is on another level from the Chinese capital. To see well-dressed people - if only ethnic Chinese people, admittedly - in a fully developed urban environment with an Anglicized culture being crushed by the Chinese Communists will be a terrible signal. It will demonstrate that essentially nothing in China has changed, that we were lied to about the supposedly evolving nature of the Chinese government, that we were essentially deceived about what the Hong Kong handover would mean. It would make the further economic development of China and the strengthening of its military a blood-chilling prospect for people in the region, particularly Taiwan but also South Korea, Japan and perhaps even Australia in the long-term.
Above all else, it will be a tremendous humiliation for the West, both for the United Kingdom and for the United States.
My friends and family are unsure if they should support the occupyhongkong group or the Central Government (China).
We came to the conclusion that China won't do anything dramatic (sending in tanks and PLA). It'll make them look extremely bad to the world.
What's most likely going to happen (according to local media) is nothing. CY Leung and China will just wait it out. Students and pro-democrats are getting exhausted from sleeping/sitting outside for nights. They'll give up.
But then again, I'm just some dude behind a keyboard. what the hell do iknow.
If the HK Government wins this struggle, people will leave for political reasons.
If the protesters win this struggle, people will live for economic reasons.
I think you need to prepare your anus for further enrichment my British Columbian friend.
>Students and pro-democrats are getting exhausted from sleeping/sitting outside for nights. They'll give up.
I doubt it, it would be really embarrassing for them to back down after they've demanded Leung's resignation.
that's like the ultimate end game worse scenario alot of people are hoping to avoid (including the HK government).
Highly unlikely but I feel that's a possibility. UK and US are too chicken shit to do anything since they have many economic and political ties with China, and China won't do anything at all because lol Hong Kong.
Beijing didn't revoke anything, they ARE allowing HK to have universal suffrage, that's not the problem.
The problem is that while everyone can vote, they are only allowed to vote for a number of candidates that have been vetted by a committee (read: every candidate will be a CCP shill)
Afaik they are not actually violating the Joint Declaration in any legal sense, just the spirit of it (Chris Patton said that if it had been interpreted then as it is now, the Brits would never have signed)
This picture was predicted by Ray Kurzweil. Including what it means and stands for.
That's the end of China as we know it.
>Hong Kong will die. But it could potentially take the rest of China with it. If Occupy Central forces the Central Government's hand, we could be looking at Tiananmen Square 2.0, and this time everyone has cellphones and cameras on their persons to record every gory detail.
If China does invade Hong Kong, the whole city will be on lockdown. Nothing gets in or out, except for possibly other militant forces.
I do see where you're coming from. But I don't think China will be willing to take the risk, as decimating a world city would create more than a ton of shit for China.
>UK and US are too chicken shit to do anything since they have many economic and political ties with China
You really think no-one would do anything? Even if you had pictures of school-age teenagers riddled with bullets all over the internet? Somehow I think that it would be hard for China to recover its image after something like that, especially since it would be their second time doing it and this time in a place that at least superficially rather unnervingly resembles the cities where many of us live and work.
Still the Central Government can't give in to the students demands for precisely the same reasons they couldn't give in in 1989. So unless the students go home, it really will be PLA tiem. Bad press for Peking but not as bad as losing power completely.
And remember, the Chinese Central Government has one advantage they DIDN'T have in 1989 - most mainland Chinese, certainly those with any personal experience dealing with HK people, anyway - hate or at least resent Hong Kong people for their xenophobia both perceived and real.
In 1989, the PLA had to bring in units with a lot of non-ethnic Chinese soldiers in them to kill the students because they feared that most ethnic Chinese soldiers wouldn't be willing to kill Peking students because they were their own blood.
They won't have that problem when it comes to Hong Kong. In fact, I dare say there are many people in mainland China who will relish at seeing the "running dogs" and "slaves of the British" being ground under tanks.
It may not be revoking it directly, but the result is more or less the same. The people of Hong Kong are against it, and will continue to protest until they get what they want. Or until they get tired.
>If China does invade Hong Kong, the whole city will be on lockdown
Even if the Hong Kong Government forces China Mobile, 3, csl. etc. to cut Hong Kong mobile networks to prevent the sending of photos and videos from Hong Kong to the outside world, it would be very hard to stop ANYONE carrying a mobile device from taking video or photos and smuggling them out of the territory later.
Remember too that Hong Kong is chock full of foreign diplomats and spies whose job it would likely be in the event of a Hong Kong crackdown to do precisely that.
If the Central Government and their proxies together decide to go down heavy, they will have to do so knowing that their image will be completely ruined abroad having made the calculation that on balance, it is the correct decision to make for the sake of the Party and nation as they see it.
>really will be PLA time
Doubt it. I don't have any facts to back it up since this is all speculation, but nobody wants another massacre. I'm assuming you're not from Hong Kong?
They're likely to control our communication systems before physically destroying us.
>If China does invade Hong Kong
They don't have to invade Hong Kong, you do realize that there is a PLA base inside the city?
Of course to completely suppress the protests with force they would probably send in reinforcements from Shenzhen.
The Chinese government might wait for a few months or even longer. Rather than make them look weak, who knows, it might improve their image at home since they can play the role of the merciful and patient.
Racism isn't limited to skin colour, since skin colour isn't the only thing that distinguishes the races from one another.
But mainland/HK differences or Asian-American/HK differences aren't "racism" by definition because they are all the same race.
>In fact, I dare say there are many people in mainland China who will relish at seeing the "running dogs" and "slaves of the British" being ground under tanks.
From what I remember, the whole 宁做英国狗,不做中国人 meme was a godsend to people who hate Hong Kong.
Hong kong was guaranteed universal suffrage, which they have. However, the mainland put in a rule that they must approve of any candidate seeking the highest office.
The student group Scholars, and their well known leader who gained prominence taking on the national/patriotic education that the mainland was attempting to force on hong kong friday night after school held protests before national china day this week when occupy central was supposed to occur. During this demonstration, the student leader before it was over encouraged people to occupy a government square, he was arrested promptly and the police dealt with the people who made it.
His arrest was considered to be a false arrest(Not sure on seditious speech etc, this is just the story as reported), or unbecoming so more protesters came out and it reached critical conditions sunday which the police fired on the protestors which has almost never happened in hong kong.
This brought out even more people, and now the government is attempting to avoid confronting the problem, hoping it will peter out and bother the people who own businesses in the area since they still have to pay taxes.
If china attempts to suppress hong kong, it will just push the protestors into a corner that china does not want. IF that happens the relationship between taiwan, and the other integrated states with muslims is going to flare up and burn them horribly.
Over on Rebbit, you have a horde of libfags urging on the protesters. I appreciate that they're just trying to be supportive, but saying that "Seattle is behind you" or "London is behind you" or whatever is really empty words at the end of the day.
In no concrete sense is anyone not in Hong Kong "behind" the protesters. If this gets really ugly, we will all just watch it on television while on the streets over there people will be spurting blood long before Ebola-chan gets a chance to give them her love.
be careful, while china can easily crush the protest in Hong Kong, Taiwan is a whole different ballgame
noted. I know Taiwan has their own army and defense force, and it's mandatory for Taiwan dudes to undergo 2 years (?) training.
Hong Kong has the Police force. Our army is China's Army (PLA).
HK protesters has legitimate grievances, but they are primary economic in nature. Unfortunately the CIA, doing what it does best, has infiltrated the protest and turned it into a political stunt. We, the HKers, have to refocus back to the economic issues and ignore all the noises created by Western media.
Behind the facade of laissez-faire economy, HK actually has one of the most unfair economic system in the world. To begin with HK has a regressive tax system. Yes, on the surface HK has a flat income tax but income tax is a small part of HK gov's revenue, the bulk of tax revenue comes from land sales. The HK gov has a monopoly on land supply and it charges exorbitant amount for building plots. Since the middle-class and the poor spend far greater portion of their income on housing, and since expensive housing is due to gov land monopoly, the tax system is regressive.
HK also has some of the loosest foreign labor control policy in the world. From household helpers to waitress to construction workers to office clerks to managers, foreign workers are everywhere. When you have no foreign labor control you have unlimited labor supply, and when you have unlimited labor supply going after limited amount of jobs the wages collapse, the big businesses and the rich benefits but the working class suffers.
Imagine if the US opens the Mexican border and grants unlimited H1B work visas, what will happen to the US labor market? And now imagine China alone has 10x the population as Mexico and HK is smaller than NYC, and HK's working class has to compete against such influx of foreign labor.
We have so many legal and illegal foreigners in HK that there are more babies born in HK every year to non-HK parents than babies born with at least one HK parent!
Foreigners, legal and illegal, not just disrupted the labor market they also put severe stress on HK's healthcare, school, transportation, and housing systems. HK's ultra liberal judges has ruled that as soon as an illegal landed in HK s/he has the same right to HK's very generous welfare as full HK citizens. Imagine if the US has this type of policy all the illegals can collect benefits from day one...
All the illegals should be turn back. We already have more legal foreigners than we can handle in HK we simply can't handle any more. Before 1997 some of the illegals came to HK due to political reasons (my parents came to HK in the 70s because of that). But now HK is part of China the only reason illegals still come to HK is economic reasons, and that does not justify right to asylum.
In Mainland China, villagers cannot easily move to cities, and even if they do they will not enjoy the same benefits as city residents. Why can't HK do the same?
All of these problems actually benefit the rich HKers and their big companies tremendously. And this is extremely unfair to the regular HKers. And this corrupted/ twisted economic system is what needs to be fixed. Democracy is not the solution because if you look at the US those who got elected are either part of the rich or owned by the rich, besides Beijing won't allow that anyway. HK protesters should demand Beijing's assistance in transiting to a more fair, more working class friendly economic system- this is something that Beijing can and will be willing to do. And this is something that will actually make a big difference to the daily lives of the majority of HKers.
>Well, it looks like Mainland tourists are voting with their feet.
>Major HK department store, photo taken today:
Yeah, pretty much.
Only a matter of time when the parents tell their kids to go home, since they ruin their business and that there wont be any food on the plate tonight.
But I guess NED will provide them with free food in the meantime...
Small price for freedom and democracy. The more support CCP gets, the more mainland-reliant policies HK will get. Desalination is 20x cheaper than Dongguan water. Agriculture use to be a thing in HK: my family were farmers in Yuen Long back then but the real estate tycoons are in bed with the gov't.
The system is broken one sidedly.
>But I guess NED will provide them with free food in the meantime...
And the Christian churches.
>Hong Kong Democracy Protests Carry a Christian Mission for Some
>Churches Are Deeply Embedded in Hong Kong Society
This allone would irk Beijing immensely.
Cant let Christianity get any political influence, lest another Taiping Rebellion happens.
In Hong Kong, the political is economic and the economic is political.
As long as the functional constituencies hold the balance of power in LegCo and as long as the Chief Executive is nominated by a committee the members of which are selected by the National People's Congress, the business community and the tycoons will run Hong Kong and will pursue policies that are in their interests.
And under the existing Basic Law, there is absolutely zip zilch zero you can do about it.
Shit is, democracy wont solve the economic issue.
We simply cannot continue with our old economic model, that of being the western-oriented doorstep into the Chinese market.
Now that China is open and Shanghai and Guangzhou are the trading hubs, our model became obsolete.
We rose because of China, and now, we fall because of China.
And even if we try another model, like that of Singapore, we'd still be reliant on China and Chinese trade. We are simply a trade city and its pretty stupid to fuck with somone we are reliant on in basically all things.
There's basically no successful economic concept that we can implement without having China or the Chinese economy playing a giant role.
Look at Taiwan. They are independent, staunchly anti-Chinese and protected by the might of the US-Navy, but still their economy is in the pockets of the Chinese.
China is a economic superpower and the gravitational center of asia. Not ailing Japan or even South Korea, but China. This is a fact everyone must accept.
You have to realize that the Central Government has no particular interest in seeing Hong Kong continue to prosper.
In fact, they would be quite happy, delighted even, to see the wealthiest mainland cities like Shanghai and Shenzhen outshine Hong Kong.
After 2047 according to the Basic Law Hong Kong will come under the direct authority of the Central Government, after which all vestiges of colonial rule including the independent judiciary and civil service will be replaced the cadre system that exists on the mainland. And again, there is essentially nothing you can do about it save a revolution which has a 0.001% chance of succeeding.
I do believe that the central gov't wants to see HK successful, if only for propaganda reasons alone.
young chinese multinationals still would love to use HK as a springboard for international expansion, and the financial center stuff is still very tempting (even though Alibaba's launch in HK has failed to materialize).
China's not going to purposely wreck one of its pearls. They would be ready to compromise - but only if they can save their face and do not have to show weakness by giving in the protests.
Democracy will allow self sustaining policies such as water and agriculture. CCP will fall within our lifetimes, at least have the framework for it.
CCP wants to take Hong Kong down to let Shenzhen, Shanghai Prosper. In truth, they can all prosper at the same time.
All the freedoms, rights etc will disappear with CCP full rule.
Rule of Dynastic Change dictates a new order. Praise the Heavens for the Mandate will once again flow to the successor.
Personally, I don't believe that democracy is actually the best system possible for Hong Kong. But given that British colonial rule is dead and buried, anything that holds out even a dim hope of avoiding direct CCP rule is worth a go.
>Democracy will allow self sustaining policies such as water and agriculture. CCP will fall within our lifetimes, at least have the framework for it.
You think that China will suddently stop being an economic powerhouse after that? You think that 400 million middle-class people will suddently turn mad and start civil war, destroying what they now enjoy over night, because the ruling party fell?
Even without CCP and with a democratic China, HK's fate is sealed with the Chinese market. Our seven million consumers are nothing compared ot China's potentially one and a half billions. International companies will still rather set shop in a "Free" China after the CCP, than in a HK that lost its relevance even more since China now even has our democracy.
Actually, the freer and more rule of law China gets, the worse it will be for HK.
We grew rich and fat since we profitted from China's totalitarism.
Without totalitarism in China, we would still be that fishing village noone cared about.
>"Pollster" arrives at my door
>"Do you believe that A. The CCP should continue running China unconditionally, or that B. rival parties should be allowed to freely contest all elections in China at local, provincial, and national level"
>"Uh... let me think a second"
>I get sent to the laogai to break rocks for 10 years before "falling ill" and being killed so that my organs can be harvested
Besides, if the CCP is really that popular among the people, what possible reason could they have for not testing it in a referendum? Certainly would silence their critics, no?
"VALIDATION FOR CHINESE COMMUNISTS AS THEY WIN BIG IN FIRST DEMOCRATIC CHINESE ELECTIONS"
"In a surprise election called in 2014, the Chinese Communist Party embraced free elections - and were rewarded by the public with a resounding mandate. Noted critics of the Chinese Communist Party, including former Hong Kong governor Chris Patten and former Taiwanese president Chen Shui-bian have been left speechless by the result. President Obama in a speech today at the White House congratulated the Chinese Communist Party and its leader for their "brave step." While the move has been touted by some as a victory of Western democracy over Eastern authoritarianism, for the Chinese Communists it is nevertheless a clear endorsement of decades of communist rule. The Chinese people have spoken, and they have said "YES" to the Party and its policies. In London, the Foreign Secretary..."
but the main reason why shanghai and shenzhen has so far failed to outshine hong kong is because the international community believe hong kong has rule of law, free press and free market free from china control, that's why most international companies are based in hong kong, international investors only invest in china through hong kong, rich mainlanders hide their money in hong kong. So in this way, it will be hard for any chinese city to replace hong kong, can international investors trust shanghai? or shenzhen?
>Daily reminder that the Central government has a 90% approval rating.
>Based on CCP sources.
Well the point is democracy not economic interests. With democracy, allowing the population to shift its economy to a more diverse array of markets that will allow potential growth and not be singlehandedly reliant on the Chinese market.
Simple economics: Diversify your investments.
As of this moment the HK Gov't only orients its policies towards real estate development (only Tycoons get rich) and tourism. Completely abandoning the manufacturing sector which was once glorious in HK.
Sorry anon, but you're a sheeple. You only see things according to your own interests people like you are cowards and despicable. No matter what race you are, what culture or nationality you belong to; you're despicable and an ugly stain to humanity, no different than an animal who follows the Alpha male.
You are the classical definition of beta.
This is /pol/ ...so Im going to end the post with calling you an autist faggot.
Daily reminder that the OC crowd rigged their polls.
>I just want to point out the polling done by the occupy and anti-occupy groups are not compatible. The occupy poll was done with anonymous online voting while the anti-occupy poll was done with verifiable identity card number of legal HK resident. So it is over 930,000 verifiable votes versus something that is completely dubious.
>Of course, the western press don’t like the result so it was mostly ignored. Should any critical observers of HK politics be surprised? The western highlight has always been on the yearly 1st July protest. However, if you bother doing a numbering of people celebrating the return of HK, attending so-called pro-establishment political functions, communal groups, associations, army barrack visit etc this number has been consistently higher!
As an amerilard I find china to be rather fascinating, in burgerland a lot of people would sooner die than have their rights revoked. It still happens of course, but politicians need to be a bit clever and hide it whereas I get the impression that the CCP can do whatever it wants.
I suppose the mentality of the chinese people is more that the ends justify the means, as long as the economy prospers and their families are fed, they will accept totalitarian rule. I wonder how long that will last once this economic boom dies down over the next 10-20 years.
>And I wouldn’t even label these people as the silent majority as they are the real voice of HK but somehow they are ignored by the established press both in the west and HK. The fact is the occupy group seek to break the law. If they are successful the only people that will be hurt are the common working class people. The ring leaders mostly have overseas residency or even passport. And recently it has been exposed that they were also well funded by a tycoon named Jimmy Lai.
>This has nothing to do with democracy. It is basically mob justice harking back to the days of the cultural revolution. It is simply breaking the law to make a statement. If any groups were to pull the same stunts in say the US or UK to change the matter of which the head of state is selected, would this be real democracy? This is not the authoritarian vs democracy, this is anarchy at its ugliest. The people of HK deserve better than this.
Just edgy students skipping class to be part of "something"
>Implying democracy is going to make things better
>implying they aren't just puppets of the pro-democracy party
The fact that the DAB and CCP aren't willing to test public support for them in an open election itself makes it clear that they aren't confident that their supporters make up the "silent majority."
After all, if they could be confident of willing a conventional general election, why are they so opposed to one?
any looting yet?
Have police gone full America and started maiming people?
They accept the CCP rule, because it is not totalitarian.
Its authoritarian and loose enough for the people to have their personal freedoms in daily life.
Its just like how previous chinese dynasties operated. They tortured their opponents in the court and buraucracy to death by thousand cuts, but left the population alone with a nigh laizzes faire economy, where the "mountains are high and the emperor is far away".
>And recently it has been exposed that they were also well funded by a tycoon named Jimmy Lai.
Yes amazing work there sherlock, Jimmy Lai hates the DAB and the CCP and funds their opponents what a shocker. Given the massive support the pro-Beijing camp gets from all the other tycoons, I don't see why it's such a big deal, all Jimmy Lai does is even the playing field a little bit.
Glad someone is doing it but I wish there were two or three more of him.
>because it is not totalitarian
huh, thanks, I only get the westernized propaganda, finding unbiased discussion on china is rather difficult to find and most of the news here portrays china to be a smog ridden dictatorship
That's, frankly, bullshit.
Even if the CCP did an outstanding job and respected human rights and all, they wont be elected in a free election.
During this phase of economic development, where the rich and poor gap, the corruption runs so high and enviromental pollution is a necessary evil, you wont have any high approval rates, even if you are a democratic party.
Back then, during the age of industrialization in europe, 'democracies' back then were primarily right-wing and conservative, with the upper house (nowaday's tycoons) dominating, while they clubbed to death any liberals on the streets for the fear of spreading sociatlist thought.
Only with prosperity and a very high degree of industrial development, political parties can actually rely on democratic mandate to sustain their rule.
During ages of rapid economic change, there are lots of painful decisions to make. Such as restructuring the industry and economy, which would create massive unemployment in the short term and wins no votes, but is critical for the sustainability of the economy.
Or how the CCP now orders their industry to get greener, shutting down lots of old, polluting factories and ruining people's business for the sake of enviromentalism. This wont earn the CCP any votes from the new unemployed, but it is a necessary act for a futue, stable and prosperous society where the luxury of accepting dissenting voices isnt expensive anymore.
They are a dictatorship, but the ordinary guy on the streets hardly feel anything in daily life.
Their police do not even carry weapons and get slapped by random taxi-drivers all the time when they want to give them a ticket.
>enviromental pollution is a necessary evil
A lot of environmental pollution say in Victorian Britain was a result of ignorance. Certainly no-one gave a fuck about working class people dying of cancer or whatever but to suggest as if the terrible environmental degradation, contaminated food that kills babies etc. in mainland China today are just "part of the development process" is fucking retarded.
>during the age of industrialization in europe, 'democracies' back then were primarily right-wing and conservative, with the upper house (nowaday's tycoons) dominating, while they clubbed to death any liberals on the streets for the fear of spreading sociatlist thought
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? China and the West have completely different political and social histories. Lazily equating the West in the 19th century to China today is just plain sloppy.
>in mainland China today are just "part of the development process" is fucking retarded.
But it is.
China's economic rise began with manufacturing in the light and later, heavy industries. And manufacturing is necessarily polluting and exploitative, especially when you want to use your low wages to attract more investments. Similiar things were done in Taiwan during the KMT-dictatorship, South Korea during their autocracy, and under the single-party rule of the LDP in Japan.
Even HK, back then a colonial authoritarian place, had heavily polluting industries that gave rise to its economy.
It's like a fire-starter. You cant just be a third world country and start with IT or services, before having a manufacturing industry, and expect to become a economic powerhouse.
Oh wait, India attempted. And its still a very corrupt place, where, despite democracy, police and their equivalent to chenguang just beat you up and kill you as good as in commie china, without any retribution from the law.
Literally any country in the world started off as a de-facto dictatorship during their age of polluting industrialization. China is no exception.
China simply adopted western capitalism. Simple as that.
This alone warrants this equation.
Or do you think that confucian capitalists are different? Looking at Taiwan, and their not really democratic and enviromentalist past, I would say no.
>Oh wait, India attempted. And its still a very corrupt place
India is filled with shit-skinned subhumans though.
Are you sure that doesn't have more to do with it? I'm not sure even the most amazing government would do anything for that mob.
China isn't a capitalist country; it has a mixed economy. It's hard to estimate how much of the economy remains in state hands, but it's probably something around 40%. You might note that apart from China Merchant Bank every single major fucking financial institution in the country is state owned.
Sauce on the share of the economy in state hands is my ass
Yeah, China has something that some people call "Corporate Leninism".
Everything is in state's hand.
But it shouldnt be very different to the Japanese model, actually, with their overpowering MITI which excercised control over the whole economy in a leninist fashion, and the well-connected Zaibatsu.
This is the price for an economic rise, that was not very natural to begin with, compared to the west, where the industrialization grew over the span of more of a hundred years.
If you want to force your economy to become an industrialized one, you'll need certain leninist policies.
Btw, the KMT is also a leninist party. At least in terms of their organization during the time of dictatorship.
>Democratizing the Quasi-Leninist Regime in Taiwan
>If you want to force your economy to become an industrialized one, you'll need certain leninist policies.
Britain's industrial revolution was achieved entirely without state direction.
Kek good to see those self hating Hongkie chinks getting BTFO by nationalistic mainland chinks. People talk a lot of shit about the chinks and how they shit in public but what I saw when I went to China was eye opening. The Chinese have a strong sense of nationalism, the families are tight knit, and they have some six sense of unity towards each other. I can only imagine how good Nippon is considering they're apparently nationalistic beyond belief.
And this was an evolutionary process. This is why I said that the eastern/asian industrialization was "unnatural", as it was essentially forced with state direction right at the beginning.
While Britain took at least 100 years to fully achieve industrialization, most asian countries managed it in less than 30 years.
The price is a corporate-leninist model of development, with clearly defined state-champions (Sony, Samsung etc) and oligopolic measures.
It's not over yet.
Besides, Hong Kong people aren't "self-hating" so much as they have developed an embryonic nationalism all of their own. They have a culture and a language (now that the mainland is crushing Cantonese out of Canton Province and it is dying in Overseas Chinese communities, it is increasingly theirs and theirs alone) of their own, and they have a land which they want to control.
Essentially, they want to rule their own land and not be controlled by outsiders. That is the very definition of nationalism you idiot.
Why do I get the feeling that you were paid Y0.5 to make this post?
What a load of horseshit.
Because China was totally just twiddling it's thumbs up until it decided to start building iPhone s amirite?
China is not 19th century England. They're a long way past steam engines and hansom cabs.
This shit is just apologia for Chinese incompetence and placidity under the yoke.
To be fair britain was also the first to fully achieve that, with china the rest of the world has done most of the work for them already when they can import machinery and copy implemented ideas.
I'm not so sure this economic model will be able to sustain the petering out of growth once this industrialization slows down, of course the economy will be good when you have a billion farmers suddenly building skyscrapers and buying electronics. The real test will be once that good fortune ends, and how the party will handle it.
Not too sure that would go over so well with how quickly information travels, for better or worse this isn't 1989 anymore and all it takes is a single person with a video to inflame an entire country. The government's only real option is to wait it out, soon enough the protests will slow down and cease over the next few months.
People just wave the old Hong Kong flag because they know it pisses off the government.
That doesn't change the fact that they a) want to rule themselves b) they have their own language and culture and c) they want to expel or at least stem the massive inflow of outsiders who threaten both.
That makes them nationalists of a kind.
No, but China was producing steel and fired coal for electrictiy.
Using green energy from the beginning would have rose the costs too high and stiffled ecnomic development and GDP growth right in the beginning.
Learn how industrialization work.
Even your beloved Japan was also heavily polluted at their respective age. And it was as late as in the 80s. No steam-engines here as well.
That's how these protests always work, I'd be shocked if this turned out differently. The protesters aren't hurting china in any way, they are only hurting their own businesses and lives.
>We would side with China over HK any day
How do you explain your government doing the opposite, at least when it comes to this dispute?
MR. EARNEST: I have read the news reports about this. I can tell you that the U.S. government is closely watching the situation in Hong Kong. Around the world -- so this is true in Hong Kong and other places -- the United States supports internationally recognized fundamental freedoms, such as the freedom of peaceful assembly and the freedom of expression. The United States urges the Hong Kong authorities to exercise restraint and for protestors to express their views peacefully.
The United States supports universal suffrage in Hong Kong in accordance with the Basic Law and we support the aspirations of the Hong Kong people. We believe that an open society with the highest possible degree of autonomy and governed by the rule of law is essential for Hong Kong’s stability and prosperity. Indeed, this is what has made Hong Kong such a successful and truly global city to this point.
We’ve consistently made our position known to Beijing and we’ll continue to do so. We believe that the basic legitimacy of the Chief Executive in Hong Kong will be greatly enhanced if the Basic Law’s ultimate aim of selection of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage is fulfilled. We also believe that the legitimacy of the Chief Executive will be enhanced if the election provides the people of Hong Kong a genuine choice of candidates that are representative of the people’s and the voters’ will.
>I'm not so sure this economic model will be able to sustain the petering out of growth once this industrialization slows down, of course the economy will be good when you have a billion farmers suddenly building skyscrapers and buying electronics. The real test will be once that good fortune ends, and how the party will handle it.
This model is definitely not sustainable in the long term, which is why China is doing a very very painful restructuring now, which will destroy lots of manufacturing jobs (in fact, it already did with the rapid rise of wages). China wants to become a consumer economy by 2025, so they will have a lot of short term pain. And pain will never win elections.
So, the dictatorship in China is actually critical in this stage of development.
>That's how these protests always work
How do you figure> The last time there were major protests in Hong Kong like this (over the threat to pass Article 23) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law_Article_23 it ended with the Hong Kong Government essentially acquiescing to the protesters demands by shelving the planned law!
I think the American public will be very displeased if China cracks down on protesters in Hong Kong.
We ALREADY dislike and distrust the PRC. You think giving us actual indisputable examples of Red brutality won't effect American policy?
You missed the important part
>We believe that an open society with the highest possible degree of autonomy and governed by the rule of law is essential for Hong Kong’s stability and prosperity
>We believe that the basic legitimacy of the Chief Executive in Hong Kong will be greatly enhanced if the Basic Law’s ultimate aim of selection of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage is fulfilled
>the legitimacy of the Chief Executive will be enhanced if the election provides the people of Hong Kong a genuine choice of candidates that are representative of the people’s and the voters’ will.
That's a diplomatic but very clear endorsement of the pan-democrats' and the protesters' position.
>You think giving us actual indisputable examples of Red brutality won't effect American policy?
Yes I do. China is one of our largest trading partners. We will do nothing to jeopardize that relationship.
They are not.
China's not working on the trading currency reform and the establishment of the Yuan if she is totally ensured of her international interdependencies.
Every nation in the world wants to be independent. Since independence means security and an increase of freedom of action.
China's long term goal is the same: Moving away from export dependency and to a more consumer oriented economy that is powered by renewable energy, which defends against possible US blockades of energy imports.
She is aware of the fact that the world could put a lot of pain against China. Russia would agree as well.
This is the weakest endorsement I have ever seen. This is nothing but looking good for TV. In actuality what this message is saying behind the lines is "we want HK to be democratic but we have absolutely no plans to support them"
Depends how bloody it is. If it's some ISIS-tier gore it will probably be bad news for China's relationship with other countries, since the entire Pacific will be shitting itself and begging the US to do something about China.
And China's industry was polluting then as well. Especially a socialist economy, which is based on heavy industry.
What China basically did in the Deng reforms was to complement this heavy industry with a shitload of light manufacturing industries. All powered by the same old and polluting, but cheap energy sources that is coal, for maximum profit and GDP-growth.
This is basically textbook industrialization, as done in Japan, Taiwan and South Korea.
Yeah, I dont know.
Your jobs wont return to the USA when leaving China.
They will just go to Cambodia, Bangladesh or Mexico.
Or rather, they would opt to stay in China, since their infrastructure is the best in terms of being optimized for the manufacturing industry.
and yet Japan isn't a polluted hellhole like China is today despite the fact they've been industrialized for practically the same amount of time.
I repeat you're just giving excuses for the ham-fisted incompetence of the Communist Party.
I hope you faggots get squashed by tanks
sadly then the jobs would just move to india instead
Now that the workforce has been more or less globalized, there's little incentive to employ workers that demand 30 times what some indian or chinese guy would require for the same labor.
Oh I didn't mean that just because there's precedent for it that the Central Government is likely to give in. What I meant was that there is precedent for protesters continuing on for as long as they have to.
It will be a very bitter defeat for Occupy if the give up without having any of their demands met precisely because the Chief Executive and Peking caved on Article 23. They're not going to cave this time I bet.
Maybe some compromise we haven't even thought of will be reached. That or they will send in the tanks, or at least the PAP.
The threat to freedom of speech in Hong Kong isn't a joke when shit like this happens.
Or at least, not a very funny one.
American politicians will side with money and American businesses will not want to be associated with red animals because it's bad for business.
The arrogance of the Chinese crowing about how "we need them" while they brutalize Hong Kong (hypothetically of course) will only exacerbate matters and fuel discontent the status quo.
What the fuck am I looking at?
You do realize that American corporations were beating down China's doors to do business as little as a year after the June 4th Incident, right?
Business is business, and it is naively endearing of you to think that businessmen in general consider questions of morality in these matters.
Where else will American factories go? Only India has enough low cost labor and India is a total shit hole even compared to China. The factories have a good chance of being destroyed or looted in India.
HK people didn't really give a shit about democracy before the 1980s and with good reason, because British colonial rule was not really that bad.
Given that the CCP and of course their proxies the DAB have a reputation for corruption and not giving a fuck about them of course the people of Hong Kong would rather being able to directly vote for their own leaders compared to putting up with that mob.
Unfortunately for them though it's not their decision to make, although they are trying to make it so.
Have to hand it to the people of HK, they sure are determined.
Most western protests last like 3-4 weeks, but in HK they can keep it going for years at a time if needed.
Because the grass is always greener on the other side, people are people and governments will always be corrupt and abusive.
Morality has nothing to do with the decisions of business leaders. It's a question of what the PUBLIC thinks. If you think there won't be a public outcry over our reliance upon a hostile expansionist regime willing to massacre it's own people you haven't been paying attention.
There wont be because the government controls the media and the government wants our factories in China. You liberals need to realize no one cares about what is "right". They care about what makes them money.
The people were upset about Tiananmen Square in 1989, but ask yourself: what did America really do to stop China's rise? The answer is nothing. They let China steal the ICBM and half of America's commercial and industrial secrets too.
If people really gave a shit, they would have been able to drown out Corporate America wanting to jump back into China to make a quick buck, but they didn't.
>the government controls the media
So you seriously think Tiannamen 2.0 could go down and no one would notice? That videos and photos won't be passed around on social media sites?
You're a fool.
They're a joke because the usual suspects have been crowing about the BRICS for close to ten years now and yet they're STILL just a bunch of shitholes that couldn't challenge a sickly child.
They're yesterday's hype. Old news dear chum.
What I worry about is that if this lasts for too long, it will make the Central Government look ineffectual and weak.
That's the one thing they can't possibly tolerate: their own people (i.e. mainlanders) looking on as they tolerate a few thousand people openly defying them for weeks or months on end.
The Chinese media ISN'T fully censoring this story, it's been published on the People's Daily Online, Phoenix TV Online and other mainstream mainland Chinese news sources. Clearly the government has decided that it's impossible to try and keep everyone ignorant of what's going on, and is just hoping to spin the story their way.
That's not a bad strategy I think, and their relative openness is to be applauded even if they're only doing so because they know that word will leak out eventually anyway.
But since they've publicly acknowledged what is happening, it will be very uncomfortable for them (the Party, that is) to observe its 1.3 million subjects watching on as it allows Occupy to defy its will.
>A poll last week by the Chinese University of Hong Kong showed that 46.3% of the city's residents opposed Occupy Central while 31.3% supported it. But the group has more support among the young.
Nothing will happen. Its a student movement without backing from the general public. When do those ever succeed? From the pictures I've seen, these kids are soft OWS types. After a few weeks and the media spotlight goes away, they'll get tired and bored and their movement will slowly peter out.
Also I think people are way overestimating how much the average mainlander cares about these democracy movements. I teach relatively Westernized, educated Chinese kids, and even they don't care about this.
The only thing that's different is that China is more powerful than it was then, and that the anti-communist mood in the United States is far weaker.
Both changes will make it if anything easier for the Central Government to ride out the storm if they decide they have to go in heavy.
Riots and Control / fuel prices / self sufficient / free food / free movies
there`s a bunch of photos on about China Protest 2014 pro democracy movement in china
Not a chance, this is localized to only hongkong, no major protests are happening anywhere else in china and I get the impression that most people in the mainland don't really care.
The worst that will probably happen is a large scale teargas bombardment if the crowds stick around for another month or so, I'm sure there are fears of it happening again but it's very doubtful, beijing has little to gain and a lot to lose from a massacre, being too forceful could transform this from a localized protest to a nationwide one with international support very quickly.
>Not a chance, this is localized to only hongkong, no major protests are happening anywhere else in china
Although there were protests in other parts of China in 1989, the main events took place in one city only - the Chinese capital.
>beijing has little to gain and a lot to lose from a massacre, being too forceful could transform this from a localized protest to a nationwide one with international support very quickly.
The same could have been said about Tiananmen 1.0 and indeed were said. At the end of the day though the government decided that displaying strength and willpower was more important than having a good image. Besides, Westerners and other foreigners in the end just ignored the bodies and followed the money: >>36674843
I'm curious at why the party seems to care about it's image to such a large extent, I can only relate to western parties where image is largely irrelevant until election periods and the parties play musical chairs every 4-8 years.
Massacring a bunch of unarmed students with an army hardly speaks of strength and willpower to me at least, but again, I can't really comprehend the chinese mindset.
true, but the protesters in Beijing were more representative of China as a whole than the current ones
average mainlanders are too concerned about stuff like education and jobs to care about the problems of westernized, well-off students, many of whom don't even consider themselves Chinese
In a way, the fact that most mainlanders are apathetic or even hostile to Hong Kong people makes it more rather than less likely that this will end in a bloodbath. See >>36666512
Why wouldn't the opposite happen? If it poses no opportunity of spreading to the mainland, then the central government has nothing to fear. They might as well just wait them out, if the protesters keep clogging up traffic and hurting business they'll just continue to lose support.
This, and the fact that the protesters have gone out of their way not to agitate the police or cause severe disruptions or destruction/looting. We haven't gotten to the threshold to where the central government need to deploy the PLA, not even close compared to June 4. Plus, this is HK, not Beijing, the capital of China, so the symbolism is not as strong.
I'm not chinese(am asian though) neither am I from Hong Kong but I honestly feel like China is the most depressing example of communists and corrupted politicans using their lack of intellectual against the people. I see some people's arguments where China's communism doesn't really affect the average person's life in any way, which is pretty much what's so fucked up about this entire thing. When they simply don't argue or talk about it, the average person won't even notice what the governments are robbing from them.
In another sense, I agree with the others who pointed out that students are simply too reckless, with a positive goal in mind, however, without care about how it would affect others who are completely oblivious about the whole situation. It's always been a problem with student riots in general, and there are certainly better ways to go about it. You just have to see why people are fed up with it, though.
Err, I'm pretty sure he mean't that it would end like OWS(in a sense where literally nothing came out of it except massive loss of productivity). They have much different goals though, where students want democracy as opposed to OWS, where hipsters just want 1% to give away their cash or something.
>Buchanan is a neo-con
>The phrase paleoconservative ("old conservative") was originally a tongue-in-cheek rejoinder used in the 1980s to differentiate traditional conservatives from neoconservatives and Straussians. Pat Buchanan calls neoconservatism "a globalist, interventionist, open borders ideology." The paleoconservatives argue that the "neocons" are illegitimate interlopers in the conservative movement.
>The worst that will probably happen is a large scale teargas bombardment if the crowds stick around for another month
That already failed miserably. The HK crowds are too well prepped they pretty much shrugged off the tear gas/pepperspray attempts by the authorities.