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catadioptric lenses
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You are currently reading a thread in /p/ - Photography

Thread replies: 82
Thread images: 32
File: 500mmMirrorLens.jpg (56 KB, 400x334) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
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anyone mess with these types of lenses? they look interesting but are they worth getting

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>>
>>2752397
Ask Eggy, he has a bunch
>>
>>2752397
i audibly said WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT when i saw this image

seriously

what the fuck am i looking at?
>>
>>2752445
A camera with a catadioptric lens.
>>
>>2752445
duck and cover anon
>>
>>2752448
>catadioptric
they should see a doctor about that
>>
I have a 1000mm Celestron c90 that I adapted to Canon EF Mount. It's fun to play with. I shoot birds and the moon mostly. Plus you get doughnut shaped bokeh.

They're kinda soft, a pain to get focused sharp, and huge volume for not much weight.
>>
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>>
>>2752445
A camera with a catadioptric lens duh.
>>
>>2752481
doughnut bokeh doughnut bokeh
>>
>>2752455
>They're kinda soft
Looking at the doughnut your scope may be out of collimation.
>>
They're really toys in all honesty. Fun to play with, not to eat.
>>
>>2752397

I personally wouldn't really bother with any, unless I saw one sitting around for $5 at a flea market.
>>
>>2752880
...or it's just at the edge of the image circle.
>>
>>2752903
Could be. Worth doing a star test. The C90 has a good reputation for being sharp.

My scope went out of collimation. Images became a bit soft and I blamed it on the seeing conditions. I only really noticed when I was observing double stars at high magnification.
>>
Hurr durr look at me I know what a catadioptric lens is hurr hurr, Fuck off and call it a mirror lens like us normies
>>
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The Tamron 500mm/8 (55BB) is good, and small, and slick to focus.
ZM-6A is big and heavy and stiff to focus, but still just as good or better than the Tamron.
The Sigma 600mm/8 comes in several front diameters, and I own the bigger one. It's not great, but represents the design the bowers and other cheap chinese ones use. It's workable, but lower contrast than the better ones.
Tamron 350mm/5.6 is the best I've ever used, but any 300mm non-reflex lens with autofocus would be better to actuallly use.
The MTO 11CA and Pentax 1000mm/10 are both equally rather good.
... my preference was always for lenses that focused at shorter distances, like 175cm, so I could use them for macro. 500mm was my walkaround lens for quite a while.
I have a lot of photos using cats, and all of them are on oh-hi.info, back around 2012 I guess, so
http://oh-hi.info/2012
but directing you to them specifically is impractical. Maybe this small selection is also relevant instead.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/betlog/albums/72157625668850176
Also http://oh-hi.info/tech has some shots OF the lenses in it.

TL;DR: some of them are very useable, but they are low contrast and often a little soft, and unless you really need a focallenght above 500mm you are better off with a decent 300mm zoom and autofocus.

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>>
File: B0122138-y720px.jpg (92 KB, 480x720) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
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it's overcast, so i haven't had a chance to use it yet, but i put this together yesterday.
This kind of think is mostly just novelty to me now. But having a big lens is occasionally useful.... I suppose.
One day I'll probably remembee the aesthetic that appealed to me in the first place and start using them again, but for now my catadioptrics are on ice, and some for sale.
>>2753007
search ebay for mirror lens and tell us how that works out for you
normie.

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>>
oh and forget split hemisphere focusing screens with these lenses. Even in full sun the hemispheres tend to blacken very easily.
You want a completely bare (no markings) high contrast screen from focusingscreen.com
>>
>>2753260
Do you have any thoughts about the Samyang 500mm f6.3?
I thinking of buying it.
>>
>>2752880
>>2752922
Do you have any suggestions about testing for collimation?
>>
>>2753341
Look at a star with high magnification (for a C90 that would be about x200). In "good seeing" the star should show a a central disc with concentric diffraction rings around it.

>>2753260
>but they are low contrast and often a little soft
Cheap mirror lenses may be but for planetary photography catadioptrics systems are cool. pic related
>>
>>2753260

If anyone would know anything about a 1000mm lens, it's you.
>>
>>2753321
No idea. But if its got a similar front element diameter and lens/mirror arrangement as the ZM-6A then it's a good lens. I'd guess that it is a knock-off but with thinner mirror glass and cheaper body materials.
image related
>>2753341
google it
looking down its own length in a mirror is a simple test iirc.
the human eye has a remarkable ability to detect even tiny deviations in alignment given the right way of looking along things.
>>2753373
indeed
>>2753376
and yet i find it really difficult to find anyhting to use them for

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>>
>>2753321
The thing about all the cheaper newly manufactures lenses is tjha they are essentialy remakes of olld designs, but they skimp on lighter materials and less permanent mirror construction.
eg: althougn no mirroring process is truly permanent, the Zm has a 1cm thick slab of glass to paint it on (see right frame in last photo i posted), and I'm pretty sure the glass covering that is also a mm or so thick. So the resilience of the mirror surface to corrosion and flexing is very good.
The sigma I have one the other hand, which typifies the cheaper lenses, is thinner and light3er in its body, and the mirrors are also clearly lighter and thinner, and the actual reflective surface is likely not as well applied or as pure/thick, nor (probably) as well sandwiched in glass to seal it from the atmosphere.
This is my sigma, 30-ish years old mind you, after I realised it's front mirror (the one behind the occlusion disk in the front element) and the distortion thats typical of air getting under the reflective surface due to corrosion.
I read somewhere that generally the molecules of reflectant can thin over time too, simply from exposure to atmosphere.
So obviously the cheaper ones aren;t going to be as robust, or as much of a precision instrument. But they may be excellent value none the less.. I'm not sure.
If yo ucan get one I would highly recommend a ZM-6A 500mm/6.3 or Tamron 500mm/8 55BB .. in that order.

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>>
and exactly the same problem i discoveredon delivery of another identical lens i bought to replace/repair mine..
Keep in mind this defect is tiiiiiny, So it can be hard to see if you aren't used to inspecting each element in a lens from the outside, but it causes exposure issues and flare flare flare.

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>>
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Shots ( more scattered into http://oh-hi.info/2010/ ) with that damaged lens that don't totally suck. Theres lot more post required for cat shots, mostly contrast and saturation, and sharpening if thats your thing.... But as yo ucan see the lens defect isnt all that apparent.
... Until it gets a light source in front of it.
And needing to edit anything this much rustles my jimmies even without the softening effect of the defect this particular lens has.

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>>2753513
I think I'll go for the Tamron, thank you for all the information bro.
>>
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>>2753611
good lens
small and light, very sexy feeling helicoid to focus with
but darker to look through than the ZM due to it's smaller front element diameter
moreso with a high contrast focusing screen
note that there is an almost identical model that has a tripod mount attached via two screws, so it's a removeable mount... this lens isnt quite as good as the 55BB i'm talking about... for reasons i forget.. but iirc it's longer minimum focal distance was one of them.
http://www.adaptall-2.org/lenses/

http://www.adaptall-2.org/lenses/55BB.html

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>>
File: A0003359-y600px.jpg (107 KB, 900x600) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
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>>2753655
compared to the MTO 1000/11 and the ZM-6A
all on a K5

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>>
File: A0000049-768px.jpg (72 KB, 768x768) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
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also: columnation test

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>>
>>2753655
>note that there is an almost identical model
Is that the 55B? I can't figure out what the difference is between the 55B and 55BB. It's the 55B I have an opportunity to buy. Is it just an older version?
>>
>>2753672
mfw the link i gave explains exactly that
>>
>>2753979
you don't need reaction images on /p/, let alone posts where your reaction image is the point of your post

this isn't /v/
>>
>>2753979
I failed you desu.
Going to get the Reflex-Nikkor C 500mm f/8 instead as there is one on sale near me.
>>
>>2752397
it's shit.
but you can be a telecreep without the bulk.
>>
>>2753989
No, we need people posting photos they took.
Not more shitposting cancer telling people not to post relevant photos.
>>2754006
>near me
Sounds like you are american. They tend to think like that.
In my case I'm Australian and I look to japan for my lenses. They are immaculate, well documented, and quick to arrive. Serious business.
By contrast; in my experience buying from americans is frustrating and very iffy.
eg: this was described as excellent condition/no marks, scratches, haze, etc... and relatively poorly documented, and then i got sass from the seller when i told them. Professional photographic business indeed!

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>>
>>2754006
That said, if you are Japanese.. then yes, do that :)
>>
>>2753989

The autism is off the charts.
>>
>>2754082

To be fair, you probably bought that from some foreigner peasant living in America, rather than a proud, true Patriot.
>>
>>2754098
You do realize America is a continent including Brazil and Mexico?
>>
>>2754284
Canada too, why does everyone forget about Canada?
We are people too you know.
>>
>>2754082
>>2754086
I'm euro. Import fees makes it too expensive to buy from Japan.
>>
File: cat-lens.jpg (217 KB, 1000x667) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
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>>2753373
>>2753511
I put a small flashlight across the room, and went out of focus. How's the doughnut look?
>>
>>2754413
All the more reason to buy a glorious soviet ZM-6A
Theres a 5A too iirc.
>>
>>2754417
That one is expensive ;_;
>>
>>2754414
Looks a bit off. Would be better if you could put the light much further away or photograph a very distant street light. Or do a star test.

Fixing collimation is a pain in the arse on maksutov scopes. Here's a pdf. The modern c90's, Orion and Skywatcher are all the same really (Synta).

http://www.company7.com/library/orion/Inst_makcasscollim.pdf
>>
>>2754473
Ok cool, I will take a picture of a far off street light or star. Will report back this evening. Thank you for the pdf.
>>
>>2753260
Very informative. That's really nice IQ in that shot too
>>
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>>2754494
Yeah, the tamron and the Zm do quite well.

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>>


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>>
>>2754494
>>
>>2754862
What software is that?
>>
>>2754865
RAWtherapee. It's a mighty software. You can download it for free.
>>
>>2754867
Ah. I'll try it out next time.
The only reason why I'm using Lightroom is the noise reduction and the clarity algorithms.
I didn't like how buggy and sluggish AfterShot Pro 2 was before that.
>>
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>>2754865
RT as other-san said.
But I tend to use DarkTable a lot more these days. It's more primitive an many ways, but it has it's advantages when you only really edit to WB/crop/EV adjust, and do ~300 photos each session.

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>>
>>2755125
I tried out Darktable but something was off with the colors, foliage showed much darker green and red was too deep and purpleish.
AfterShot Pro 2 and Lightroom showed the right colors on the same setup, so the problem must've been in Darktable but I never found it. I liked it's options, especially the wavelet noise filter but the photos turned out dark, gloomy and generally shit.
Rawtherapee looks nice so far.
>>
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>>2755135
RT is good, but it tends to apply highlight compensation to everything, making some images that totally don;t nee dit very pastely and everyhting else slightly pastelly and flat with no real way of turning it off and still being able to use auto-exposure, it sidecar file format is much better for legibility and scriptability, as are the command line options... of which DT has practically none and it's sidecars are gobbeldygook... but it does allow keyboard customisation; which is great for quick adjustments. Sliding RTs sliders accurately or quickly with a bit of machine latency is always tedious. DT also doesn't highlight compensate everything to death and therefore produceds easier nicer blacks with auto exposure, and it's shadows/highlights automatically does a similar thing to that which RT uses highlight compensation for, but in DT it can be easily omitted (isnt inextricably tied to auto-exposure) and when it's wanted.is generally good with default setting.
I use DT right now becasue it makes my workflow faster and the usual EV adjustments I do possible with the keyboard.

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>>
Not the worst case example, but...
>>2755379
was DT

this is RT

see the diff?
In some images that totally DO NOT need it RT will apply vast amounts of highlight compensation, and occasionally it can look very, very shit. Seeing just slightly it in every photo ever processed with RT bothers me.

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>>
FYI: if you are using RT then select output color profile to RT_sRGB
it has nicer blue and (iirc) greens than regular web sRGB
>>
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>>2754473
Here's a photo of a streetlight ~200 yards (180 meters) away. Celestron c90 on a crop-frame Canon body.

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>>
>>2755512
Yeah, it's probably OK. If you want to be CDO about it do a star test.

Next time you are looking at the sky focus on a star (Polaris is a good choice). Use the highest magnification you can. If the sky is steady and the 'scope is cooled the star should look like pic related (in the centre of the FOV).

The pdf I posted is a good guide for rough collimation. To get it perfect you should adjust the primary mirror while looking at the diffraction pattern of the star.

The Celestron manual says the 'scopes are collimated at the factory and the six screws at the back must NEVER be touched. lel.

tl;dr Yeah prolly OK
>>
>>2752455

Ditto on Nikon; I find it's hard tracking birds unless they'll stand still -- most don't for me -- and at f11 you tend to need a lot of light or high ISO, getting into the noisy range
>>
>>2755381
Hey Eggy, if you are still monitoring this thread, I have a question about Darktable.
Do you use it for your K-3 with the basic Pentax-like base curve or did you made your own?
I found a windows port and the dull color problem is the same as it was under Linux.
>>
>>2755683
>tfw catadioptric lenses explain the wave/particle characteristics of light.
>>
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>>2758257
The curve is auto-detected, I never alter it with K5 or K3 or Q7.
All I usually adjust is exposure, always after hitting 'auto' so the black point is auto-adjusted first, and sometimes I do a spot WB if they are really off.
..and crop. Because the K5 has some extra pixels on the short edge, and both will sometimes gain or drop a pixel after resizing, and I like my images to be exactly the right (uniform) sizes.

That said, my monitor and Tv display differently. And neither is particularly correct nor far wrong, so I tend to use the monitor for it's greater color depth, and spend most of my time looking at the TV because it's huge. But effectively I use both.
Most likely it's just that your screen or perception is off. People mess with their monitors too much and expect it to be correct. If there's a reset then reset it to factory. And leave it on and displaying something for 15 minutes before you edit anything.
DT/RT do use color profiles, but any OS will already have interrogated the relevant devices for the factory ICC before the program even starts.

Post a photo with default DT export settings. Let me see.

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>>
>>2758257
oh... but I avoid editing by using lenses that don't suck too.
If you are getting shit images from a catadioptric then yeah, you will need to edit a bit.
I used to push contrast and saturation. And use RTs contrast based sharpening.
I did use DT with my cats for a while, but I don't recall the details.
>>
>>2758640
Oh, I thought you avoided editing by taking photos with no value or thought, and uploading them en-masse to your insane Web 1.0 pervert shrine.
>>
>>2758640
I can't upload anything right now, but I'll get a few examples at the end of the week.
You'll see the difference is huge in DT compared to LR or ASP2 without anything applied especially in green and red and their mixture in yellows. Basically anything in nature.
>>
File: IMG_7289.jpg (362 KB, 900x431) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
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just took this with one

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>>
>>2758983
Post the same shot with defaults in all 3 applications plx
...keepoing in mind that 'default' in LR is almost certainly automatically including all kinds of adjustments that you have to actually click auto or otherwise activate in RT/DT
>>
>>2758983
Are you using an aftermarket focusing screen?
What lens?
>>
>>2758883
>>2758635
I was just about to wrap up a few examples when I noticed something.
I was dicking around in DT when I suddenly noticed that switching on and off the Defringe module makes the colors in the photo wash out just a little, but enough to take away that lively green and fiery red "edge" I so much like.
One big mystery solved, but I still feel a little limited in DT, just not enough range in some of the sliders and finicky white and black point adjustments. RT shows that washed out equalized shadows thing and bugs me since then. If that shit was a sound, it would come from a blackboard scratching fingernails.
Looks like LR+PS still wins.
>>
>>2760874
>Defringe module
Sounds like you have things turned on that aren't on by default. Or at least aren't on by default in my version...which should be current repo version.
>not enough range in some of the sliders
wat
>finicky white and black point adjustments.
a) set keyboard shortcuts to the things you fine-tweak
b) i haven't had cause to fiddle black point in anyhting except negative scans, and even then I decided against it and just took a better image in the first place. Maybe you are over baking?
>RT shows that washed out equalized shadows thing
Yep. I tried to ask the devs how to avoid using it by default and they are pretty terse about anything that might alter their baby... which I get the feeling none of them use outside application testing.
DT is even worse. Nobody seem to be working on it.
...Still, they are both decent if your requirements are simple, or you arent actively comparing it to a program with a swarm of developers and so many bells and whistles that it may as well have mary poppins riding in it.
>>
>>2759324
What's a focusing screen? Rokinon 300mm f/6.3 Reflex
>>
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>>2760976
i'll post a few example pics taken with it

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>>
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>>2760981
aeroplane
>>
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>>2760982

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>>
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>>
File: snowegret.jpg (361 KB, 1000x587) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
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>>2760976
i'm pretty happy with it

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>>
>have Celestron C8 telescope
>f/10
>look at space, obviously
>thinking of getting a t-ring for my camera so i can take some good pictures
>messing around with it one day
>see plane going by
>point it at the plane while looking through the viewfinder
>perfectly clear
I'm now considering using it (rarely) as a fuck-around lens
>>
>>2760976
focusingscreen.com
I ask becaseu split hemispheres and microprisms can cause exposure metering problems.
Yeah the 300mm-350mm catadioptrics i have seen tend to be fairly good.
The IQ starts to vary a lot among 500-600mm cats though.
>>2761006
People tend to overlook or smirk at it, but there is definitely something to be said for having a loooong focallength lens available.
Like I said earlier, I used to use a 500mm/8 cat as a walkaround partly because it was so light, and partly because it had a 1.75m minimum focus distance, so i could take 3:1 macro of things on the ground at my feet. Was an interesting walking toy. And obviously really useful any time you need to look into the far distance.
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