Do you think Squirrels have emotions and compassion like dogs do? Ive been wanting to hunt them for a while because I believed that they were not emotionally complex, but now I don't know what to believe.
I know im being a pussy but this is important to me and I'd appreciate the help.
A common squirrel call is the crying baby. Even if they know it's not their own pup, they'll still run to see if they can help. That sound a lot like compassion to me. That said, they're a rodent, a prey animal. They don't live long and exist as part of the food chain. If you're hunting for food, I feel it's well justified to hunt squirrels.
The same can be said of every mammal, though. Cows are probably more intelligent and emotionally complex than rodents, and we eat them all the time. At least with squirrels, you know it's organic, free-range, GMO and growth hormone free, and you're not perpetuating an industry that essentially imprisons and slaughters animals for money. Hunting is far more compassionate than eating at McDonald's.
You should never point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
If you aren't willing to shoot the squirrel then you aren't ready for guns. Have you ever shot anything else before? Do you have a knife to skin and prepare it once its dead?
Did you watch some "Into the wild" hipster bullshit movie that made you want to forage for food?
Are you aware that once you shoot an animal, you have to cut it open and put your fingers into the still warm body and have your fingers stained with blood?
I'm sorry but if you are asking about squirrel "feelings" then you are probably not ready for hunting.
Ok, did you pluck and eat said birds or was it more of a "psychopath's first kill" moment?
All living things fear death. All living things fear pain. Squirrels don't experience this fear any differently than dogs or cows or fish.
You are applying a human-level conscious to animals, something that isn't really possible.
Squirrels don't question gravity, it is a law they live by. This is because they cannot comprehend it.
Humans attempt to break free from gravity because we are consciously aware of it and how we can beat it.
I hope this helps you understand better.
why's /out/ so damned salty this winter? must be overrun with angsty winterfags
The smartest squirrel is smarter than the most stupid human
Infant humans are less emotionally complex than an adult squirrel
But who cares? Nature is crueler than your gun and squirrels aren't exactly endangered.
Take all you want, but want all you take
I had a pet rat.
Her name was Lilith.
She was very intelligent, as critters go.
Used to beat the neighborhood squirrels up and take their lunch money.
Sadly, we had to part. Something about a pyramid scheme, and annuities.
The squirrels were soooo jealous; I think they ratted her out.
dogs never passed any tests for consciousness.
they don't have it for all we know, claiming they have experiences that require it is equal to claiming god exists.
emotions in your dog are a religion, it's belief without evidence, you're as bad as a christard.
some birds pass the mirror test.
there's no dogs that do that.
>All living things fear death.
there's almost no living things that fear.
it's fight or flight response, instinct, no subjectivity there.
>All living things fear pain.
almost no living things have pain.
for most of them it's nociception, they don't have the brain required to form pain.
>Squirrels don't experience this fear any differently than dogs or cows or fish.
you're a fucking idiot that should go back to school.
that isn't a thing.
go fuck yourself pseudo-scientist, read some more MLP while you're at it, it's the only thing you'll find that supports your bullshit claims.
ITT: a bunch of people talking out their asses
They have been selectively bred alongside people for thousands of years to easily pick up our physical and emotional queues.
That doesn't mean it has emotions or is like a person. It's an exposed-ass unhygienic animal and belongs outside tied to a tree, not in a fucking store.
And yes, I still love dogs.
I squirrel hunt quite a bit and im always on the fence. I hunt in alot of areas and some places there appear to be no quirrels where there should be lots, as it is fairly popular here. Im sure 99% of us on /out/ do not need to rely on rodent meat for survival. However, its good sport, and the license fees go to a wholesome cause. I have wasted quite a few squirrels on accident with a shotgun and while it is very hard to hunt them with a 22 when leaves are on the trees i dont think i will be using a shotgun anymore. And they do taste wonderful. If you know they are plentiful and not well hunted in your area i say dont worry about the feelings if u put em to good use. hope this helps.
Literally just a slideshow
In the trash it goes
No credible sources.
OP, are you worried about the emotions of the squirrel you kill, or its family members?
If it's about the squirrel you kill, take the advice of >>677334. As long as you're taking an ethical shot within your ability to quickly dispatch it, don't worry. Taking a head shot with a .22 or slingshot will kill the squirrel instantly, and it will feel no pain. Any twitching is just nerves firing, and not the squirrel fighting death. If you use a shotgun, get the right bird shot size and choke tube for the distance you will be shooting, and test the pattern on a paper target.
It's healthy to have a concern about killing things ethically. Just realize that you will give them a better death than they would have had, because they won't even know what happened. Nature is cruel: it would die otherwise from illness, starvation, dehydration, or animal attack; none of them is a good way to die. Coyotes and dogs will eat sick deer alive starting at its anus. Cats will terrorize mice for hours, by repeatedly catching and releasing it, before they get bored and kill it.
The squirrel had a good life, and you are giving it a great death if done ethically.
If you can't reliably take head shots, and always gut shoot them or take a shot at their hind end because its the only shot you had, you shouldn't be hunting. Hunting isn't about killing, it's about harvesting in the most painless way possible. Ethically killing it just happens to be the most humane way to harvest.
If you're worried about its surviving family members, don't. Just hunt during the legal season, so there aren't any pups that starve if the mother doesn't return. If you just left the dead squirrel (which is wanton waste and a crime) other squirrels might take interest and 'mourn' over it. But if a squirrel doesn't come home, the other squirrels won't really notice, and will forget about it.
Remember you're an apex predator, whose hunting license fees support conservation.
when you finally grow up maybe some day you can understand what kind of perversion life really is.
yes, the squirrel is a real living creature which is existing. its brain is not as capable as humans but that doesn't really make its life any lesser than yours. yeah its a real living creature who is undergoing a real existence, killing them is definitely wrong. dont listen to the shared opinions of society and idiots who think murder is alright. these are opinions generated from centuries of abuse and human suffering under the sinful history of men as prisoners under monarchy
really just go with your gut feeling
watch an animal be killed up close.
do you think its ok to watch it struggle for life before slipping away? you know its wrong, dont ignore this. do you think your hunger and non-urgent need to eat justifies this?
it really doesn't
I have heard this as well. I have also heard that the Coast Salish word for salmon translates as "one who carries sea lice." The natives were right about a lot of things, hippies don't know shit except how transmit STIs, grow really dank weed and cover up the smell with patchouli oil.
Probably not as much as dogs. My dogs still miss a dog we had years ago. When they hear his name they look around for a while and then mope. Dogs are pack animals, though. They need pack members in order to hunt, keep warm and protect themselves. Squirrels don't have that, they leave the nest as adolescents and find a partner to raise young. I don't recall if they keep the same partner for life, but it's still less reliance on a pack than dogs.
Generally, the more reliant on a pack that an animal is, the more developed their social attributes will be.
Anyone who says dogs don't feel pain or compassion don't know what they're talking about. Dogs worry and care about their people, and will even feel guilt when they know they've hurt their people, assuming their people are decent companions, probably why the naysayers never noticed it, themselves.
This is great advice.
Vegans... They'd rather let a helpless squirrel gets shredded and eaten alive by another wild animal than have it taken quickly and painlessly with a .22 to the head... seriously. Do you idiots really believe squirrels die of old age in retirement homes?
Wikipedia says: "The first litter is born in February or March, the second in June or July, though, again, birthing may be advanced or delayed by a few weeks depending on climate, temperature and forage availability."
I know their teeth come in at three weeks, so they are no longer nursing. It sounds like Louisiana isn't worried about the 1st litter (their survival rates are probably really low for squirrels born in February or potentially in January). The 2nd litter probably has higher survival rates which is why the season's over by May.
all life is as precious as it is not at the same time anon, there is no wrong or right.
this is about your own emotional complexity.
people love to degrade beings they want to kill to not feel guilty and question their action.
It is up to you.
We are now able to produce meat without killing animals, through cell tissue engineering.
Maybe this step will lead to a more peaceful and careful humanity in the future.
if you look at the mri scan of a dogs brain and compare it to a humans you will see the same parts active while expressing different emotions.
There does not have to be consciousness for emotions.
Science may produce meat, and people may stop killing animals for food, but it will never lead to a "more peaceful and careful humanity in the future." Human nature never changes. One has to merely look at all of human history to see this and the fact that people just continue to use the latest technology to inflict pain and terror on others. Nothing in nature will ever be as cruel as what one human being does to another.
I agree with you that all life is precious, but you shouldn't fall for the logical fallacy that killing something equates to cruelty. Motives and intent play a large role, which is the reason I wrote the lengthy post about ethical hunting. Life (and especially death) are by their very nature are painful and difficult. Yes, humans have to take responsibility for wildlife conservation, but since we remove apex predators, we have to step in. True conservation doesn't mean no killing, it means ethical killing to properly manage a given population.
If you read numerous accounts from the 1800s, people saw waterfowl migrations so thick that it darkened the sky. While I would love to see that, I also know it would make modern air travel extremely dangerous, and people would die. By the way, did you know that the reason we have strict hunting and harvesting laws, is that ethical hunters pushed for them? Hunting organizations like Ducks Unlimited were the first true conservation organizations. Using money that came out of hunters own pockets, they purchased hundreds of thousands of acres to protect wetlands, which benefit all of us. Ethical hunters put both their character and money where their mouth is.
Cruelty would be to leave the deer population on the East Coast of the US unculled and allow them to starve to death, die in a disease outbreak, or be hit by motor vehicles. We removed the other predators, it is our duty to remain predators. Reality is tough, and showing mercy does not necessarily mean not killing things is cruel.
I grew up poor and in the country. We raised goats and chickens for food. Goats show about the emotional range dogs do. They play, show a definite child/parent attachment even after weaning, and have favorite humans. I'm really sure they have emotions.
They also taste pretty good if you know how to cook them.
>recognizing that an animal has feelings does not diminish your need to eat proteins
>poor people (meaning most of the world) can get better protein more cheaply by raising animals for food, especially in areas where crops are hard to grow
Personally I think it's hilarious when people buy meat at a grocery store and think they're morally superior somehow. I would rather let an animal live freely and then one day kill it for food rather than have it live in the conditions they presently reside in.
Hunting is only perceived as wrong because your killing something... However everyone else is supporting mass slaughter everyday and essentially "washing their hands of it"
If people knew what went into their food I think they would all opt to hunt their own meat but it's an ignorance is bliss sort of thing. People don't want to have to do the dirty work
And if life really is a perversion?
> a revolution starts with a revolutionary - off yourself way out in AK and support the natural world you admire and love so much.
> ....cuz, wolves gotta eat, too.
Inb4 you say shit, I've never killed anything for food, haven't killed anything since a bird with a bb gun when I was a kid. But I refuse to go hungry, won't starve myself to death over sentiment. Pic related - not a fan of guns, believe a hunting kill should be stalked, not sniped. Grouping from 30 yds with no sight on a Bear Whitetail II
>that doesn't really make its life any lesser than yours
I don't know, if you don't think a fellow human being is more worth than a goddamn squirrel I think you might be some sort of psychopath or autist.
That's some strange priorities.
As many snobs have said, ethical killing is exactly that, ethical. We, as a species, are predators. Instead of claws and teeth we developed tools. It's the order of nature for us to hunt.
Anybody opposed to hunting yet still eats meat from a supermarket is a hypocrite. Ethical hunting is the most moral way to eat meat, and is the way nature intended for us to do.
OP, I can't speak for others, but I believe all life is sacred, because it is life. I don't know if squirrels think the same way as us, and I have my own views on that that I won't get carried away with here. However, even if they do, they are part of nature, and in nature all things die, whether they are hunted or not. It is also natural to use the kill. I eat all of my kills, and am trying to get better with tanning because I want to use as much as I can. I'm not saying that you need to do this, but my opinion is as long as the animal is not going to waste, within reason (nothing ends up going to waste in nature, but the more YOU use, the better) then the kill is natural, and certainly ethical if killed in such a way that the animal does not suffer, and that the kill is not putting that species in risk of endangerment. My view is that if these rules are followed, then there is no problem.
I respect my kills, I'm glad for it, and have always felt a little sad for the ending of it's life, but this is always going to be more ethical and closer to the natural way than breeding an animal, specifically for it to suffer through adverse conditions to finally be killed and sold.
You'll find your own way, as most of us do, and your own justifications for your actions. Applying a bit of logical reasoning, tempered with a moral and ethical standpoint, will most likely lead to the best path for somebody who wants to hunt yet still has compassion for animals. Don't fool yourself into thinking they have no feelings and don't care if they are killed. Accept it for what it is. A predator would eat you regardless.
why does there have to be some kind of value?
you are automatically just applying an animal to be lower than you. as if it deserves to be mistreated or killed. it really doesn't. yes you shouldn't adopt the animal and treat it like your boyfriend or a real person, because its not, but its still its own real and meaningful life with a real desire to live and to be killed. this desire is just as strong as humans, the animal shows the same type of fear and emotion. there is no difference. its the eagerness to treat animals as lower class that really divided basic understanding of biology and differences between species. its brain may not be capable of high level function but as a living mammal it is more than capable of understanding your intentions and fear and pain.
typical abusive reasoning and responses from sociopaths. fuck yeah bro, skin that faggot animal alive like real china product XD you guys probably really are asian XDD
some people are good at reading their gut. this is just a different way of making an informed decision. who the fuck are you to say it can be wrong? i think you are really getting ahead of yourself.
the specific situation of monitoring an animal being killed and watching it suffer and struggle for life and making a moral judgement on weather this should be acceptable within our world is actually a "gut feeling"
there is nothing wrong with listening to the part inside of you which knows this is wrong.
did your father abuse you?
Not a sociopath, sorry to burst yer PETA-crafted bubble.
Did you even read where I wrote I haven't killed anything since a bird with a BB gun when I was a kid? Guess I'll further that by informing I'm probably older than a fair number of the others on here (turned 40 Jan. 9), which means its been about 3 fucking DECADES since I've personally killed anything. I catch and release all bugs in my home, whereas you likely swat the flies and wash the spiders down the drain.
Caucasian Kentuckian here, product of english/german/french/russian immigrants to North America between 1707 and 1906 - note the absence of asian.
< you, kind anon, may wish to find another thread in which to argue, because at this point you're 0-fer and have become worthy of a pic...
your response was retarded and made no sense.
you need basic writing skills
but you are still arguing against moral logic so i threw your worthless post under the pile of other idiots.
what exactly is the problem?
There's nothing wrong with having felings or emotions, but using them as the sole basis for decision is just poor form. I never said it was wrong, just the poorest way to make decisions. I don't watch animals struggle or suffer; I'm the one that wrote all the posts about ethical hunting. You need to ask yourself why you feel the need to watch them suffer.
You've obviously angered some people on this thread. Should they just go with their gut feeling if they met you in person?
It's obvious that you care nothing about people and only about animals. Who are you are to impugn the character of my deceased father?
By the way, it's spelled whether. Or did you just go with your gut and decide not to use your brain when you spelled it?
In fairness to another anons, I see that others have written about ethical hunting. They deserve credit. I made a reply by going with my gut, and took credit for all the ethical hunting posts. This just reinforces my assertion that going with a gut feeling is a poor basis upon which to make decisions. Apologies to the other ethical hunters.
You seriously cannot understand the difference between quickly dispatching an animal and killing it for the sake of killing it or just to torture it for fun?
> "just applying an animal to be lower than you. as if it deserves to be mistreated or killed. it really doesn't."
I guessing you meant implying, but I hope that you've never used bug spray, killed insects, or eaten meat; that would make you a hypocrite.
>"typical abusive reasoning and responses from sociopaths. fuck yeah bro, skin that faggot animal alive like real china product XD you guys probably really are asian XDD"
Argumentum ad hominem is an indication of a weak position. I don't understand how someone can love animals but be a racist.
> Moron calling the kettle black about grammar while not using capital letters.
OP, I hope you see this. As I've said before I admire your desire to be compassionate, and ethical hunting is the best way to do that. As you can see from the multitude of posts on here that ethical hunters care about both animals and other humans. Those characterizing meat eaters and hunters as vicious murders, make it obvious that they care nothing about their fellow humans. This also makes me question whether they actually care about the animals themselves, or are just using them so they can project a smug moral superiority over those around them.
Ask yourself. "Of the two groups on here, which one represents the person that I would like to become?" Only you can answer that question.
you are so assblasted in the bum that you cannot even comprehend the post you are replying to.
there are plenty of people who can make consistent and proper choices based on gut feelings. its proper use really depends on the situation. are you a fucking retard?
in this particular subject, we are discussing a moral issue, where understanding your basic instinct and feeling actually does apply here. you are challenging the comment i made on listening to the part of your gut which is telling you that killing is wrong. how is this improper use of a gut feeling? moron. and where the fuck do you bring ethical hunting into this? do you really think that murdering an animal quickly is ok? sure, its more 'right' than watching him suffer, but hey dumbshit, you are still murdering a real life. i cant believe you actually take the time to write some kind of shit about ethical hunting, like you promote it as some kind of real excuse for being a dumbshit.
and you are trying to apply your weak pathetic understanding of the subject as if you are some kind of expert. when you're just a plain old fucking retard.
YOU might suck at reading gut feelings, this doesn't mean that others may suck too. and ethical hunting doesn't mean shit.
honestly, get real.
the only thing which is poor here is your pathetic mind, along with its pathetic reasoning.
you know, mental abuse comes in many forms. do not assume that all mental abuse is the aggressive type. the poor sociopath logic you harbor surely came from your environment of neglect. through your own worthless parents and associating with children of other worthless parents.
be sure to vote republican this year
they really need you
There's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. Morals and ethics go hand in hand, and I'm advocating for being ethical. I've never denied that feelings have a place, just that they are a poor basis upon which to solely make decisions. Your posts validate that position.
I find it particularly interesting that you never chose to respond to any questions I posed, You just continue to name call people names.
I've never called you names, yet you choose to personally attack me at every turn. Perhaps you should examine your 'morals.' You make racist rants, and make sly negative references to homosexual acts; does this really correspond to having a progressive/Democratic world view?
If being counts on this thread and responding to your posts constitutes "associating with children of other worthless parents;" then yes, I probably am guilty.
Your posts do make an excellent contribution for helping the OP decide, which group represents the person he would like to become.
Have a good day!
Would the squirrel ever reciprocate your feelings of concern for it?
Squirrels are arboreal tree rats, blast away.
>implying its not right
The world ain't right. Life eats life to live. People who go full vegetarian or vegan out of moral reasons, I can think well of if they're not assholes in other departments, but I'm not going to look down on people for eating meat. Ideally, it'd be nice to only eat meat you hunt for, since you put effort in and can make sure you show it proper respect, in whatever form you choose. But there are lot of people now, and it's not feasible for all of them to hunt. Soon as we can make meat, not faux meat, but actual meat made by us, with the proper nutrition and taste and shit, sure, not killing for food would be great. But that's a ways off. Or it's not, and I'm ignorant of the progress, in which case great, the sooner the better. Even when we do get that shit, it'd probably take time to make it viable for EVERYONE unless we go full star trek.
Ya fuckin dipshit, you assume far too much. I have never in my life even visited reddit, I detest anime, and can only assume "dark souls" refers to either a video game or whatever rock you call home. I may have sacrificed form for brevity, sue me, but at least I still bother with capital letters. Friendly suggestion:
> have a clue before you let yer lips flap in that breeze whistling through yer empty fuckin skull, dumbass.
Since you've nominated yourself to be the one harping about grammar and reason, be aware there are at least 36 grammatical errors in this post alone and your reasoning skills fall so far below any acceptable minimum standards you would risk losing any serious debate in life to a tic-tac.
Getting back on topic, being promiscuous is usually a sign of lack of compassion.
>Killing =/= cruelty
True. In many if not most cases, death by hunter is quick and painless compared to death by vicious animal attack or starvation.
Get dropped on your head much? Vegetarianism doesn't save a single animals life. If we all stopped eating meat tomorrow, the livestock would still get slaughtered, just to be thrown in landfills. The cow would go extinct, and deer populations would explode, increasing birthrates of other dangerous predators, resulting in the world being a far more dangerous place. If you don't want to eat meat, don't eat meat. But don't delude yourself thinking that people having a differing opinion makes them wrong or evil.
But I've never known an animal to act purely out of malice, hatred or greed, traits very common to humans. Animals are in many ways morally superior to humans.
Maybe we should hunt humans.
>Maybe we should hunt humans.
I went on a manhunt once. I just got back from Nam. I was hitchhiking through Oregon. Next thing I know there's a bunch of cops chasing after me through the woods! I had to take them all out, it was a bloodbath!
Got this guy last Saturday. Had to shoot right handed (am a lefty) missed the head and blew and hit him in his throat. Thought he d bleed out in a couple mins. Went to pick him up 30 mins later and the fucker is still alive and runs up the tree. Had to put another .22 through his spine before he went down. Sitting in my freezer now.
>Animals are in many ways morally superior to humans.
It is silly to apply morals to animals because they are too simple creatures to be motivated by morals. They are motivated by things like hunger, the need to mate, maybe a little teamwork if they're pack animals.
Humans are simply more complex and I guess autistic animal extremists like yourself have trouble figuring out other human beings.
You can say that humans do bad things but they also do great, wonderful things that no animal would ever do.
fuck those little fuckers, we had some preying on the gold finches that visit my mom's bird feeder. They were leaping onto the finches and biting off their heads when they came to the ground to get dropped seeds.
I shot em out of the tree with my daisy bb gun and my beagle grabbed them and shook em like toys
it's not fake. it's muscle tissue which grows outside the animal.
technically it's the same, just without body and soul.
i admit that this concept feels strange but i will buy it because it's a way to heal the planet.
>tfw we live in a world where white men are so effeminate that the women have to go out hunting
Feels bad man, feels even worse that if I had a kid now I wouldn't be able to pass on hunting skills because I don't know any.
I hunt and I'd stop killing things and eat fake meat if it had the exact same nutrition profile, flavour and texture as real meat without hormones and suffering.
Killing to me is an unfortunate aspect of the activity yet I still pull the trigger with no hesitation.
>Not knowing that women have hunted throughout history.
They used to be outliers and still are. Go figure.
They are just grey squirrels with a mutation, I've even seen white squirrels before but that's like only one or twice in my entire life. Interestingly I think black squirrels were much more common in pre European America where the black color have them better survival advantage is the mature forests.
Not him but do you then eat meat? I think the real sin is factory meat. I dont kill little bugs or other things either but I have been eating store meat. Now, at around 30 of age, I think I may have been in the wrong all this time. How can I condone factory farming? I cant. That cruelty is
Not him. I dont wanna argue with you but simply state that there are worse things than murder, and that no life does not consume some form of other life.. To kill can be a great mercy and truely its only a ethically complex person that can take it on themself to do it. Its also entangling, a personal sacrifice "No good deed goes unpunished", and so on.
Hunting is necessary for many peoples well-being and survival. Its the most humane way of eating meat and one of the best deaths for an animal. However, if its not nescessary for well being or survival or other reasons, is it defensible? Is potential suffering of anothers life something one can or should quantify like that, 'it will die a worse death later on should I not kill it'?
Modernity has brought all these questions to our door. They are multi faceted and difficult to answer. However, only the most obstinate fool would chastise the sure hunter when mostly everyone everywhere eat factory meat.
I recommend anyone to search for gazelle baboon earth touch on yt for an example of nature some steps removed from us humans
Big WARNING to sensitive people. Its literally the worst thing I have ever seen.
Of course the cow would not go extinct, silly.