>>664358 For that guy in the picture? A huge meme.
He's clearly in his back yard. He's batoning a piece of wood big enough to burn by itself once a fire is established. The piece he has chosen to baton could even be hardened since it looks like it's already been in a fire.
That fucking nigger even has a well used batoning baton.
I bet if you gave him shit for it he'd just be all like "Yeah well, I did it to test my gear. I want things like this to happen to me in my back yard, not out in the wilderness!"
Batoning is with a knife is something you do in an emergency or at most very VERY fucking occasionally for lulz. It shouldn't be a primary method.
Never in my life have I know or heard of a native or daily knife user that has ever batoned in his life.
I have never batoned in my life. It is not a necessity, even in an emergency, I dont know how one would need to baton for firewood.
I like how the backyard youtube survivalists baton just as a test of toughness that will make manufacturers come out with solid products, but I also miss knives that are thin and can actually cut well.
Arguably the worst part about batoning is that it conveys the idea that a knife with a hidden tang or a rat tail is automatically shit, when in fact it's not the case.
>>664368 No cause I guarantee you or someone else will attack the example saying how its a dumb piece of kit. You get a piece of steel of the right composition and geometry its not going to suddenly shatter being smacked into wood.
>>664377 Technologies change. Saws are extremely hard to make for example, axes are relatively easy. Saws were not in common use by frontiersmen in the USA well into the 1800's. Lots of people became very skilled using axes for jobs that a lay person could accomplish using a saw. Presently you could abandon all axe use if you wanted to, plenty of tools exist now that can replace it.
>>664396 i am talking about the part of the head that is beveled for use as the primary cutting/splitting surface. Of course its thicker near the eye, you know, cause there is huge gaping hole for the handle and a lot of axes also have pol capable of hammer use.
You get that unless we're talking about cutting across the grain, the cutting edge is only a tiny part of the equation here, right? I'm not trying to be a dick but the reason something like an axe is better with splitting is because it thickens like that. You said they made knives with the primary purpose of batoning, if you just think knives with a 5mm stock fill that category then I would heartily disagree.
>>664402 Let me be clear here just so were on the same page. There are no large scale production knives that I know of that could replace a full sized splitting maul. I am talking about knives that are stout enough that can accomplish that of hatchets/one handed axes. As far as the upper limit that knives could reasonable compare to, I haven't measured too many forest sized axes but I would say that is probably the size of axe and above where axe's are going to outclass anything you could come up with in a knife-like design.
What I want to know is, why would you need to split large branches length-ways? I've never run into any pieces of tree that I could not stomp and break, or wrench off a tree. Ive used a knife to make small "v" cuts in the base of large branches I snap off by hand, but I don't like to let the knife go more than an inch or so deep in the wood. If something is too large to manage with this method, this is simply something you'd need an axe for. Am I doing it wrong? Also, when batoning, the friction across the blade surface is seems immense! Shouldn't you at least lubricate the knife if you're going to do this? I just don't understand why it would ever be needed.
>>664410 Why bother doing something that could easily break a useful tool? Who the hell needs small pieces of split wood? What is the largest stick you could actually baton? What use is the finished product?
>>664417 because people go to environments where you simply can't find such easy wood. The thing that comes to most people's minds is firewood but being able to split wood like that is really beneficial for shelter making, woodcraft, and tool making.
>>664424 >Why bother doing something that could easily break a useful tool? only if you do it wrong desu >What is the largest stick you could actually baton? i have seen whole trunks batoned with a cs srk i think
but generally you would want a diameter smaller than your knife blade length, it's best if flat spine is exposed to hit
>>664422 When wood is wet, you use the tree resin as fuel for smaller fires to dry the larger sticks out. If you have access to the tree to baton the stiks up, you obviously have access to the saps. If time is not an issue, why use makeshift means?
>>664428 that's not how it works tho resin is good it burns like candlewax maybe hotter, but if no pines around and you need fire asap you are fucked. sometimes wood is just too wet and even kindling is too wet and you are hurt or it's too dark to roam around try to find dry tinder enough to dry out wet twigs.
i have been in situation like this took me an hour before i could stop splitting wood because the fire became self sustaining. of course i used an axe cause i had an axe but the mechanics are much the same.
>>664426 So let me get this straight, people go into an environment with shitty wood prospects. They make a point to bring themselves to this area, and arrive with a knife. >tool making Well you have access to tools, that's why you bought a knife to bring. >woodcraft I'm sure you meant whittling. >shelter making Wanting all the sticks in your shelter to be flat on one side is just preference, and if you're willing to break knives to satisfy your flat-on-one-side shelter preference, I think that might be called autism.
I'm starting to see that this is just something for people that literally have no income. I mean I get it, you're just a kid fucking around in the woods, your mom cant drive you around today and you want to make a little chair or some shit. Yeah I could see this as an option.
No experienced, able bodied man would ever need this. If you have to resort to a knife to split wood, that's called being unprepared. Not something you want to do too often while /out/
>>664436 >Wanting all the sticks in your shelter to be flat on one side is just preference, and if you're willing to break knives to satisfy your flat-on-one-side shelter preference, I think that might be called autism. lol what a retard sometimes you don't have enough wood available you have to make the most of what you got splitting long logs in half doubles the shelter walls it might very well save your ass. of course it's way easier to just get more logs if there is around.
also if you want to make a plate for yourself or a clean surface to cut meat or your food on your best option is to split a log.
>If you have to resort to a knife to split wood, that's called being unprepared. well sometimes you don't plan on staying for weeks just passing thru. other than that you are going to have a hatchet at least. but i don't bring hatchets to one day hikes either even tho i love them. i always bring a knife tho.
>>664447 Cause you are going on and on about needs and what you would personally do. No gives a shit. It's a big world out there, filled with tons of places and people with different preferences, goals, intentions, and skill sets than you.
>>664450 what? i leave it when i don't plan to use it. that doesn't mean i can't have a need for it. sometimes you make the wrong guess and have to improvise. i would baton in a need for it but i would be very careful not whack away like a lunatic on those vids. i have a backup folder always that could take some batoning in a pinch too but i'm not keen to find out how much.
>>664455 lumberjacks don't just carry one wedge you negro. they carry 4-5. that's 5-10 kg weight extra. small wonder plastics are used today.
>>664454 you can baton with hard wood and it's preferable, but takes a long time to make a serviceable wedge with a knife from hard wood, fire harden it (for which you need that fucking fire) and all that jazz.
>>664432 >sometimes wood is just too wet and even kindling is too wet and you are hurt or it's too dark to roam around try to find dry tinder enough to dry out wet twigs
This is NOT the case 99.9999999999% of the time. So what's your excuse? If it's "too dark" you should have stopped earlier or planned to get there earlier- that's poor planning on your part. I've never encountered conditions "too wet" to find kindling and start a fire without splitting wood in 20 years. Here's a tip: carry tinder, since it weighs little and kindling is easier to find.
>>664511 well i have and splitting logs saved my ass too it was around 2 degrees C and some wind. every fucking thing was dripping wet and there was fog and dark too. would have been a miserable night without fire and i have just arrived at my campsite.
>>664511 >>664521 also... i always carry tinder in many forms it was not enough to start anything i had to make feather-sticks out of thicker logs insides and that only lit finally when i dosed it with paraffin. once i had a smallish fire from feather-sticks i had to chop and chop for the dry middles until i had good solid ember and a fucking fire with a wind tunnel blowing it hot to dry logs on.
>>664523 The fuck is a feather stick? Don't know about you, but I'd never NOT found dry kindling. You've obviously got a knowledge problem, not a methods or tools problem. The only tool for wood processing I've ever used was a bow saw and I've never gone without a fire. I've had quite a time getting fires going when it was wet out, but nothing that REQUIRED me to split a 2-4" log open.
Batoning is 99% meme, and useful only when your life is on the line, not when your comfort (caused by your poor planning) is on the line. Even still I can expose dry wood of trees like cedar, which has water proof bark and ALWAYS has deadfall kindling with a folding knife.
>>664521 >splitting logs saved my ass Same guy as >>664575 here. What are you camping without a tent or something? I've camped in 18 inches of snow without a fire, and without risk of losing life or limb. Sounds like you were unprepared AND you didn't plan very well.
>>664595 If you really don't believe a sturdy knife (or ANY sturdy wedge shaped piece of steel) can baton all day and night without damage I don't know what to tell you, you are beyond information comprehension.
Batoning is a meme for sure. Just like using the spine of your knife to strike a ferro rod. Idiots don't realize its scraping material OFF your knife, weakening it. I use the right tool for the right job and don't abuse my knife, that's why I carry a striker with me. (and a back up striker as well)
In all the time I've spent outdoors, innawoods, camping, hiking, overnighting, trekking, multi-overnighting, and traversing, I've never needed to b'ton before. Granted, I've never been homeless and lived in the woods, but who the fuck needs to b'ton innawoods? I haven't run out of branches, limbs, and sticks. And wtf I have a hatchet if I need to chop anything. This shit makes absolutely no fucking ¢ to me whatsoever.
>>664632 don;'t even ponder to that tard man. I recommend: http://www.amazon.com/Rothco-45-Survival-Hatchet/dp/B001CWEH72 I build crazy good fires with it and do construction projects with it. Fucking idiots spending more than $10 on a knife, that they are going to gayton with ? get the fuck out of here. My gerbs has never failed me once, retards need to stop pretending to be bear grills and act fuckijng normal for once.
>>664607 If you're using it with flint or other stone, yeah. You're chipping your blade. Ferrocerium however is much softer than steel and designed specifically to be what wears down. At worse, you're ruining your finish. Of course, if you're that worried about ruining the finish on your knife, you should probably not be /out/.
>>664577 something you can split with at least a 4" knife but hatchet really works better. but some "wedge" yeah. >>664586 the plan was okay (it was to get in there while the sun was still up scout the area take my time to prep for fire etc...) the execution got fucked up. stuff happens.
>>664364 >I dont know how one would need to baton for firewood. In a case of emergency. It's always a good idea to carry some basic tools, like some plastic rain cover, firestarter and some wood processing tools even when you're not planning to use them. A heavy hatchet is not one of those basic tools.
>>664366 >Nowadays they make stout blades that primary purpose is batoning. this.
A strong knife is also a good primary splitting tool. It's lighter than a hatchet and when you're not cutting a forest down and splitting it too, what's the poing of carrying splitting mauls, wedges, chainsaws and hatchets?
>>664386 >if you're in an emergency don't risk your ONLY knife fixed it for you.
Besides, when splitting or cutting with a hatchet there's always a tiny risk that you'll hurt yourself, no matter how experienced you are. Why take a chance?
>>664422 >when wood is wet you split in four to increase surface and expose dry middle. Yes, and when it's extremely wet, you split in four (or eight) and then remove the wet outer layer from each piece.
>>664575 >Don't know about you, but I'd never NOT found dry kindling. It depends on where you live. If it's been raining for weeks it's practically impossible to find anything dry.
>>664442 i promise you that youve never used that in any serious context. whenever you felt serious about using it, it was because the utilitarian in you couldnt admit that you brought a lump of steel for fucknothing.
I don't even use a hatchet in the woods. There's no logs that need split. I don't make big fires. I just use my rocket stove which only needs twigs no larger than the average adult's thumb thickness. I have a knife but the most wood it touches is just for whittling and stick feathering.
I can't really think of a feasible emergency scenario where batonning wood with your knife is actually a viable option. Oh perhaps you are trucking log rounds into an arctic tundra in winter and the truck breaks down 100s of miles from the nearest tree. So, you have to baton the fuck out of some log rounds to start a fire to survive. But, how fucking likely is that going to happen?
>>665022 >It depends on where you live. If it's been raining for weeks it's practically impossible to find anything dry.
I live in a temperate rainforest. Rain is a major thing here. The most I've ever had to do was start a fire at 2am in a massive thunder storm. It had been raining/drizzling for an entire week when that largest storm hit. All I had was a small pot, ziplock bag of seasonings, a knife, and a magnesium fire starter with built-in ferro rod. I dug a Dakota fire hole with a little water dike around its side and rounded up anything I could find that was remotely dry. I didn't baton anything. I used the magnesium fire starter, knife, and stuff from anything slightly sheltered. It took me about 30 minutes to get a fire started. I had soup made of rainwater, seasonings, and local edible vegetation. This was all done without any shelter cover whatsoever and it was fucking pitch dark aside from lightning.
You need to go out and learn how to do stuff like this before saying it can't be done without, "x".
>>665022 >If it's been raining for weeks it's practically impossible to find anything dry. You don't know where to look. Yes your climate determines this, but if it's been raining for weeks on end splitting wood does no good if the bark isn't waterproof. Hint hint, not all bark is waterproof.
>>664730 >>664730 >are we trying to justify the batoning as a technique Exactly. Or in my case, trying to tell people you don't have to split wood 99.99999999% of the time and no one on this board has been in a life or death situation that REQUIRED splitting wood with a knife.
the only thing ive found where i find light batoning preferable is actually on fatwood.
although the dust that a saw will create can be nice but it is also very hard to position and easy to lose. and with an axe, even as small as pic related. it can be tricky to split it just right down to that lovely matchstick thickness. not that it cant be done, not at all.
but since fatwood pieces that you collect tend to be quite small, atleast they are around me, i find that a small batton tap with a knife gives me the precision i seek. but that is about it really.
in my opinion even a small pocket/carving axe like pictured will vastly outperform a knife battoned through wood, in efficiency, ease of use and stress on the user/tool
but since it can be dificult to feather fatwood, i find "batoning" it into matchstick thickness bits to work great.
but doing it to get to firewood is just silly. sometimes very fun. but silly
>>665172 >Survival is not freetime activity where you get to pick your gear beforehand
Every outdoor activity where you may require survival techniques at some point is one where you can pick your gear beforehand you faggot
>>665172 >A dayhiker goes out with minimal gear and gets lost. A minimalist day hiker with even an ounce of common sense will be carrying a 2-3" blade (ie a useful one) not some fuckhuge batoning piece of shit.
>>665172 >You and the people who keep breaking their batoning knives are the same people. I have never broken a knife while batoning. However, I have more than 3 functioning braincells and can see that batoning is not a legitimate survival technique.
tl;dr I tried batoning once but it is too retarded to ever consider doing it again
>>665209 well cheap ass sturdy trench knives are made for exactly shit like this and digging if nothing else at hand. i heard from many soldiers the only thing they ever used the glock feldmesser is to dig holes.
problem arises when people want to baton everything and willfully ignore better options.
I hadnt even looked at the OP properly, I thought that it was just a curiously shaped specialty knife or something I didnt notice the giant fucking piece wedged in the wood, too funny.
>>665072 this here makes the most sense, wtf are you doing splitting wood in the first place. I can imagine in a situation where theres only a handful of full grown trees youd need the axe but in every other why arent you just foraging for small sticks or breaking them off of trees
>>665172 >Survival is not freetime activity where you get to pick your gear beforehand.
Like when you are riding the bus home through the deep dark woods, it crashes, and all you are left with is your pocket knife, some chewing gum, and a book on 3rd grade reading. But, your teacher confiscated your pocket knife earlier in the day so you have to make a twig fire instead. And, all the other kids laugh at you or it because they brought their pocket froes and have nice fires.
I've seen batoning in the Swedish armed forces a lot of times and I've never even heard of a knife breaking. Sure, it's not something that I'd prefer to do and I carry a small axe instead. But if you have nothing else and the place you're in isn't littered with good branches?
there is zero reason to baton anything ever. wood will burn if you throw it onto an already started fire.
>but my fire isn't burning well enough to throw a log on
so walk through the woods and pick up some twigs. there are millions of them lying everywhere. gather a giant pile of twigs, then a giant pile of finger sized sticks, then wrist sized, then a few logs and progressively feed the fire.
>>665226 you arent wrong wrong, but the hatchet in your picture is a paperweight. 0 torque, 0 margin of error between your knuckles and wood. at that point id just carry the axe head and improvise a handle than use that tiny handle
>>664358 Modern blades can take it. Knife makers baton too. Saying that batoning in general is shit and abuse in every case, no matter what knife is the the old "Back in my days" grandpa of the Knife community. >>664368 420 AISI blades are pretty nice for that purpose. I batoned the shit out of this 30 dollar china chopper. Everything that is tough will do the job. The Glock army knife is also perfect for this. It's made out of spring steel. Doesn't keep an edge but will not break. You can use it as throwing knife too. This video is a prime example of how cheap butter knife steel is perfect for batoning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD41VjL1mek
He'll use the china blade after the expensive product fails.
>>665630 Firstly , just say 420 stainless. Secondly, its not great for knives. I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think you understand how sharp a knife has to be kept, and the standards that a lot of /out/ holds their knives to. 420 stainless is just not worth packing. If you ever get to try out some well kept d2 or crmov you'll see a difference in what you're used to I'm sure. If you're going to keep a specific item to baton with, why not a wedge? If you're keeping something for a singular purpose, and there is an item that is much better for that purpose, you really should go with the better tool.
>>665172 >breaking their batoning knives I've never split wood with a knife. I've never split wood on a camping trip, and I've never been unable to start a fire. I've backpacked through constant rain for days on end and had fires as often as I wanted.
>>664358 I made an opinion on batoning through experience. 2 years ago I had a pretty cool survival ex, in the coldest days of the canadian winter. They told us we were going to camp innawoods so we brought the necessary stuff. Arriving at site they tell us put all youre rucksacks in this truck and go over there for briefing. Then they tell us that the rucksacks will stay in the truck all weekend and were only allowed whats in our pockets. We get one (summer) sleeping bag per person. -25 celsius Mfw i thought it was going to be an easy ex Struggle to make fire with our issued gerber 600s and our EDC knives Spend th whole time daydreaming about my bk7 that stayed in the rucksack My lesson was that a 6-7 inch knife is necessary in the winter in that kind of forest with lots of conifers and almost no dry windfall And that a hand saw is king
>>668653 any knife can fail from any maker. most likely cause of failure is user error. second most likely is tempering / annealing error. third most likely reason for a knife to break is simply bad design and cutting corners (like gerber shit).
the steel material is the lest likely candidate truly.
>>668682 it depends. a blade hard enough will snap like glass if you stress it wrong. doesn't even need to have faults in it. and even a very shitty knife can do hardcore stuff if you are doing it right.
i have used many no-name kitchen knives for all kinds of shit even batoned with them or used them as a chisel, not one snapped on me.
>>668693 True, however I personally would consider excessive hardness in a blade a fault on it's own. Elasticity is important, even for edge retention, and a degree of malleability is much better than having an edge that flakes and snaps off under duress.
So I'm going to go ahead and lay this bullshit to rest.
You know them native Americans? The ones who lived off the land full-time successfully for thousands of years? Yeah, them. They didn't baton shit, they didn't split wood or even cut down trees for firewood. They used deadfall, and never had to waste carry weight on some huge-ass piece of metal.
>>668818 That's kind of wrong. Native Americans didn't have the advance metallurgy techniques needed to smelt iron, so obviously they aren't going to have steel knives required for batoning. Additionally, the native American tribes of the Potomac region did cut down trees to use as dugout canoes, firework, long flexible branches for tanning, etc.
>>668818 Native Americans did split wood or even cut down trees for firewood and they also fucking lived in villages and towns, so idk why you are so obsessed with what people do in harsh environments.
>>669505 The use of slash and burn agriculture does not rest on the tools one has access too. It's been used by many cultures throughout the ages, even those with steel tools. Mostly because it's labor effective, and because the burned trees lend nutrients to the soil.
It's mostly a sign of underdeveloped agricultural knowledge and technique than anything.
>>665269 Not if you lash it that way. You're better off sawing or otherwise opening up a furrow in the haft and nocking the blade into that before lashing. Then add something for weight and you've got something almost as good as a normal hatchet.
>>669521 They didn't utilize slash and burn. They used fire to cut down trees because it was faster and far less labor intensive than trying to hack down 100+ year old trees with STONE tools. They applied mud to the upper part of the trunk to prevent the whole tree from going up in flames.
The used fire again to dig out canoes, and used shells to scrape the ash and shape the wood. It was extremely time consuming.
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