Should public land be given back to the people like Cliven

>>647092
>given back
>implying it was ever his to begin with

>>647092
it is for the people. if you dont like how theyre managed, you work with other people who agree to advocate for a management change until you have a sizable interest group.

while resorting to Ad Hominem is a lame approach to an argument, Cliven Bundy himself is not one to talk about public land. id like to flood that fuckers mailbox with copies of A Sand County Almanac in the off chance the last few chapters hit home.

>>647092
Yes, please give half dome to some rich guy for his 10th vacation home

>>647092
Fuck no. After working for the National Parks and the Forest Service I can say confidently that most people don't know two shits about managing land properly. Cliven Bundy definitely doesn't know shit about managing land because he's attempting to cattle ranch in a god damn desert. For instance, in Colorado, where it's nice and dry, land requirements for cattle are 40 acres PER cow. In a place like Missouri, it's 4 acres for a cow and calf pair.

I wish they would take the Forest Service land and give it back to the states or local governments. The local trails and campgrounds are run by, in my case, by the City, the State, and the Forest Service. The City and State trails have garbage cans, dog poop bags, nice signage outlining do's and don'ts. The trails are maintained and some of them are accessible for people with disabilities. The Forest Service trails are shit, washed out in places and downed trees, and the signs are full of bullet holes or are broken. The Park Rangers are polite and ask "how's it goin?" The Forest Service runs around with AR-15's "you guys better not be partying or burning pallets on my watch"

>>647354
Bad idea. My state is selling its "state" land.

>>647354
The forest service is horribly underfunded and understaffed. Places where there used to be 20 people working, there are now 3 and most of the staffers are having to do multiple jobs and are horribly overtaxed. If you want to the forest to get better, get them more funding.

>>647364
Is Voldemort your governor? AKA Rick Scott

>>647092
Public=for the people

>>647354
No anon, you are wrong. You want to expand National Forest Land, not contract.

Local parks are sold all of the time to developers. State parks are also sold to developers.

If you started giving the national land to locals, you would have fucking high rise condos in the middle of what is now national parks.

>>647092
BLM land needs to be given to all tribes who were given treaties and did not get the acreage stated, then the general public

>>647092
Yes.
>>647211
Implying it ever belonged to the government in the first place. They signed a treaty 200 years ago--so what? Government is totally illegitimate, so they have no rights.

>>647469

>Local parks are sold all of the time to developers. State parks are also sold to developers

Good. Sell it all so that the people can use it instead of just the rich and fire all the parasitic government fascists who tear up the environment while they ticket the citizens for being outside.

>>647470
Why should land be given to tribes when they have no concept of ownership and thus no care when land gets trashed?

>>647523
>>647524
You're so cool.

>>647092
>Give public land back to the people
>So anyone can use it for commercial purposes
No. This guy wants just enough of a government to provide police protection from his slaves.

>>647524
All tribes has traditional claims to land, they had a notion of ownership the generalization is we didn't have private ownership but even then that's incorrect and highly variable.

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>>647092
NO NO NO NO NO NO
It's already for the people, but since it's owned by the government it legally prevents fuckjobs from destroying the land. Seriously.

Right now, all the BLM and NF land is open and free for us to camp, hunt, fish, wheel, and shoot on. If it were privatized all of that shit goes away.

FUCK NO.

>>647531
lol...the government already leases BLM and NF lands to industry its not all open and free. Also near me there is a private property that functions the same thing as a state park so no just cause something is private doesn't make it impossible for nature conservation.

>>647470
Most native americans (common tribal members) have no real understanding or appreciation of good land management. they intentionally ignore and refuse any modern knowledge or expertise on best management practices when it comes to land and natural resources. it's a cultural thing. they're locked into some kind of eternal rebellion against white man's world.
they want money and stuff and they want special rights and privileges but they dont take car of anything. waste, abuse and littering is all they do.
they just do whatever the "feel like" doing at the time and leave garbage and trash everywhere.
they are like hoodrat niggers sometimes.

>>647535
Private owners treat the land much better than governments, with the exception of Indians. Their reservations are like dispersed garbage dumps

>>647555
>Private owners treat the land much better than governments

>cut all the trees down
>sell the timber
>mono-crop farm it for a few years
>stop farming it altogether because you suck at farming and have destroyed and lost the topsoil, depleted all the nutrients, and have saturated the soil with long persistence pesticides
>let it grow into an unsightly mess of invasive weeds and saplings
>stays this way for years/decades because they don't want to sell or lease it

If you say so.

>>647530
If the Indians can prove they own the land they can have it back. Too bad for them, Indians never invented writing or wheels or weapons beyond a pointy stick or even had the concept of ownership as they just raided each other constantly with tribes growing or shrinking depending on who was more savage.

>>647340
10,000% this and everything it means.

>>647354
>The Forest Service runs around with AR-15's "you guys better not be partying or burning pallets on my watch"

lel what? the only forest service employee I see around my local forest is a woman in a white pickup who cleans the shitters.

>>647523
"the people" can use it when it is a local park.
when it is sold to developers, it becomes a subdivision.

are you retarded?

How fucking stupid are you OP.

Public Land is OWNED by the people

hence why we charge money for PRIVATE businesses like Bundy's to use the resources of that land.

By the way, you can camp, shoot, ride dirtbikes, on BLM land pretty much anywhere. It's public land, available for public use. Why do you want this fucking welfare millionaire ruining it for free?

>>647092
Ive seen what mexicans do to free camp sites.

Absolutelyfuckingnot.

Reasonable restrictions and even fees are crucial to keeping nature clean and not full of trash, diapers, and broken glass everywhere.

There was a nice section of river down the road from my town, and the last time I went it was some kind of fiesta and there was literal shit floating in the water.

Fuck free parks.

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>>647555

>I literally don't know anything

oh okay

>>647630
Its true though. Im not him, but I live near a handfull of separate indian reservations, and besides the actual garbage dump, they are all garbage dumps.

I live in a town near public land and there's a lot of animosity between ranchers and the BLM. While the BLM could probably be a little more practical in the way they manage their land, the ranchers are fucking awful. They're selfish and bully hunters who walk near their cattle even though it's not their private property. One of my dad's friends even thinks the BLM goes out in the summer and intentionally lights fires to burn up cattle and ranches.

>>647635

the indian comment wasn't what I was referring to

>>647638
People hate the BLM because they don't let them overgraze delicate desert habitat. The ranchers are just being assholes.

>>647625
>>647638
>>647685
All of this.

The BLM is very good at what they do, considering their very limited budget. And generally the BLM agents/employees are doing it because they love the work and mostly care about what they do. they are not getting paid very much at all.
The BLM is one agency that mostly doesn't deserve the "evil govt" agency label. It's just that indians, ignorant rednecks and white trash have no concept or understanding of good resource management

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>>647366
>The forest service is horribly underfunded and understaffe
Not where I live. The have multi million dollar buildings that house maybe 4 or 5 employees. Someone even wrote our local paper once complaining about all of the new Forest Service vehicles park out front, they then moved them to the back of the building.
>>647603
see pic

>>647712
The BLM are a bunch of lazy overpaid bully fascists. They do more damage to the land than any ranchers. You probably want bureaucrats in Washington educating your kids you statist mong.

The good thing is they are lazy and won't go more than 100 feet from their $40,000 government pickup so its easy to hide things from them

>>647638
It's actually insane that we let ranchers graze on public land. They're part of the reason hyperflammable, invasive cheatgrass is replacing native grasses in a lot of the dry parts of the country.

>>647873
You're so cool.

>>647821
This. There's a forest service station around the umpqua river that is close to not a whole lot and it's huge. Asked for help with an old hobo flashing a knife at people on a nearby trail and they were like, "hmmm, we'll get to it at some point". Like 20 trucks in the parking lot.

>>647919
There are only like one or two LEO's per forest. There probably wasn't one immediately available.

http://www.trcp.org/

you realize we have a policy group for just this purpose right

and the answer is no. the states tend to sell off most of their holdings within a few years, and the days of millions of acres of public access land would be over

http://blog.trcp.org/2015/06/18/locked-out-public-lands-transfers-threaten-sportsmens-access-part-1/

>>647630
>>647912
I upvoted your posts, I am so glad we have Redditors like you guys to make 4chan better :)

>>647986
You're so cool. I bet you're like, the coolest guy you know.

>>647873
>its easy to hide things from them

like what?

>>647638
My sister and her husband work for the BLM, at a lot of their postings they were instructed not to wear anything that might identify them as BLM during their off hours because of threats and harassment.

One of the guys on my brother in law's fire crew gave his BLM sweatshirt to his mom, she was actually chased out of grocery store by crazy locals when she wore it.

>>647366

It does seem like they are starting to merge districts to save on costs. I'd like to believe it's because wildland fires are eating up the forest budgets.

>>647092

It already belongs to the people, administered to by a government elected by the people.

What Cliven Bundy is actually saying is
>give all the land to some people

That's a really shit idea if you enjoy having wild places to go to.

>>647986
Take that shit back to /tv/.

>>647626
>there was literal shit floating in the water
You sure the /out/ guy that poos in rivers wasn't in your area?

It already belongs to the people. That's what the word "public" means.

>>647986
>dick shitting rancher or cooperation buys land
>fences it in and posts >no trespassing
Gee, look how the average citizen benefits from less public land!

>>648114
It's not public land though it's government land. And you have to get their permission and pay money to use it in any way

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>>647821
That's a forest service LEO. They are "cops" with firearms and the ability to arrest people, etc. Most forest service employees do not carry firearms or have law enforcement responsibilities.

>>648287
True. Most of them don't even spend time in the forest. They primarily fly around to conferences to make up new rules to screw the public or take bribes from lobbyists so companies can rape the land

>>648370
Pfft. The forest I work for has almost completely shut down logging due to endangered bats.

>>648208
>And you have to get their permission and pay money to use it in any way
You have to pay money for things like firewood tags but it's like $20 for five cords of wood. Compare that to guys who sell privately and it's $300 for a single cord. And what kind of permission are you talking about? There are $5 camping fees for designated campgrounds with certain services but dispersed sites are free and you don't need any sort of permission to camp in them. Also these dispersed sites are like 99.9% of public land.

So how much did the Cattlemen's Association pay for this thread?

>>648370
>Take bribes from lobbyists.
I've never seen someone derp so hard.

>>648382
I'm sure the cattlemen have paid billions in taxes to their masters but they get nothing back but harrassment, land grabs, petty rules etc.

HECK, ONE GOT MURDERED BY THE GOVERNMENT JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO IN MY STATE OF IDAHO after they asked him to put down a cow in the road that had been hit by a vehicle

if you haven't figured out the government works against the citizens there is no hope for you but its probably that you are just a brainwashed kid

>>648480
Most ranchers are more than happy to pay the $1.70 federal grazing fee considering private parties charge more than $20 for the exact same access.

>>647366
Blame them for their own bullshit.

It doesn't help that the mentality of the agency is that us mere mortals can't be trusted in the forest while they get to use it as a personal playground.

This combined with an attitude towards utilizing ALL earmarked funds EVERY YEAR means that it won't get better until you burn out a good number of the idiots who infest the Forest Service.

>>647092
Some land should, but there should always be public land so people can always enjoy the outdoors uninhibited.

>>648480
Link to story?

>>648480
No really, are you paid a flat rate or on a post by post basis?

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>>648287
>That's a forest service LEO.
And we have never had them before until recently. My point is that the Forest Service builds multimillion dollar buildings for a few employees, has an over abundance of vehicles, and lets the trails go to shit. This is an example of our local trailhead sign (or whatever it's called). While our local and state trails are great.

>>648604
I forgot to mention that the second sign from the left, the white sign with black print, is a warning that's 2 years old that part of the trail washed away. The locals bushwacked a new route because they never fixed it.

>>648604
Forest Service LEOs have been around for decades.

>>647340
This. Public land grazing has already fucked up a sizeable portion of the west

>>647523
what are you even saying

>>648480
Protip: wealthy ranchers like Bundy get more in government subsidies than they pay in grazing fees.

>>647555
They objectively do not treat it better, they just harvest all the natural capital that they had to invest nothing into

>>648208
> Pay money to use it in any way

Nope. And I like how somehow you think that privatizing it will somehow make it free to use

>>648480
Holy shit I think we are actually in the presence of Cliven Bundy himself

>>648604
>While our local and state trails are great.
Until some local council decides they want money for a pet project and sells the land to someone who won't let you use it, that is.

Land usage and quality is not dictated by whether the land is owned privately or publicly. A weak constitution and a bad superintendent will lead to a poorly managed lands whether private or public.

>>648776
Straw man argument. I've seen how the feds manage the trails. I'd rather someone else with ties to the community give it a try.

>>648797
It's not a straw man, it's the point of the whole discussion. The feds keep the land available and local governments don't.

>>648795
>A weak constitution and a bad superintendent will lead to a poorly managed lands whether private or public.
Yep, but at least I can go hiking on the poorly managed public lands. Private lands have these "no trespassing" and "stay out" and "private property" signs all over them.

>>648800
>The feds keep the land available and local governments don't.
And the point of my replies is the feds do an extremely bad job at it while wasting money on new buildings and cars.

>>648797
the good thing about state land is there isn't much of it so it's relatively easy to maintain. in nevada where I live almost 57 million acres is federally owned. i'm not even entirely sure how much is state and parks land but i'm going to guess it's less than 100,000 acres. so keeping every single trail on fed property is impossible. this scenario is the same in pretty much every western state.

also if the states took back all this federal land they wouldnt have the budget to maintain a large majority of it so they would sell it off.

>>648820
*so keeping every single trail on fed property maintained

fixd

>>648768
>Nope
>what are taxes

You fuckers are lucky. No blm or public land really in Texas. It sucks ass

>>648480
>>648526
>Link to story?
http://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article43673037.html

Goes something like this:
>cattle got loose and found it's way onto a road
>gets hit by car
>cops called to scene
>cops arrive and start gut shooting and mag dumping on it
>cops call owner to put it down because cops are shit shots
>owner comes
>get pulled away by police then shot dead by police as he attempts to put his own cattle down with his rifle
>wife has a heart attack as she witnesses police murder her husband

>LAND OF THE FREE

Southern New Mexico....
100 acres per head of cattle, most of which is BLM....
Cattle just don't belong in the desert.....

This is a /pol/ thread.

>>648900
No, it's a bait thread. And a shitty one at that.

>>648800
you can go hiking on private lands.

>>648913
As long as you have the owner's permission.

>>647092
>Should public lands be given to the wealthy like multi-millionaire Cliven Bundy recommends?

FTFY.

>>648831
You'd still pay taxes if there weren't any federal land.

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>>648604
It's a pretty rare occurence. Almost all the USFS trails I've been on are maintained well. In general ranger districts are small and have very few vehicles. I know this because I work for the USFS and we are constantly hurting for vehicles. Obama laid down a presidential mandate to reduce fleet size so we are restricted from getting more vehicles.

Also the USFS has had LEOs for decades. If you think they are a new position it shows just how ill informed you are.

>>648887
Jesus what a nightmare, I hope they sue the shit out of the County Sheriff's Department.

>>647092

Fuck cattle ranching and fuck Cliven Bundy.

>>648919
Forest service trails suck. So do state park trails. In California all they do is collect fees and put up trail closed signs crying about no money. They have multi million $ buildings in the parks fucking up the environment and scenery, but none of the people in them do anything for the park. Literally the only employees you see are the fee collectors. Government workers are worse than welfare niggers.

>>648936

You whine like a welfare nigger.

>>648831
That literally accounts for less than 5 percent of income tax AT MOST. Maybe that number would go down if fucking idiots like Bundy payed his taxes for using a public resource

>>648966
I actually just took the time to look it up and Natural Resource, Energy, And Environment account for 1.64%

>>648966
Bundy doesn't have to pay any tyrannical ditatorship $1.70 per head to graze his cattle! He's a free sovereign man!

He will happily take his share of the $38 Billion in beef subsidies each year, though.

>>648971
And that's tens of billions of $ being wasted on cutting off access to government land being paid to fascists who can murder you if you dare go outside. Plus if you care about the environment then you would support firing the entire BLM and forest service

>>648972
>beef subsidies

You mean food stamps? Those are more akin to slavery reparations because every black person in the USA was a slave. Even the millions that Obama imports from Africa deserve reparations because they are forced to live in this racist society

>>648987
>wasted on cutting off access to government land

The fuck are you even talking about?

>>648988
You're being too obvious now, fewer people will take the bait.

>>648993
A good example was the last government shutdown. The park service spent $200 million hiring armed guards to keep people out of parks (valley forge, statue of liberty, vietnam wall)over 4 days because they had sent all their employees home with pay because they wanted to send the message that the government is above the law and any attempt to subvert the master\slave relationship will be thwarted. You might not remember because it was about 4 years ago

>>649064
You do realize there's a reason the NPS closed down the parks, right? It has nothing to do with some kind of "master/slave" relationship. NPS land is sovereign which means they are responsible for SAR, road maintenance and general public safety on that land. If they allowed people to enter parks there would be nobody there to ensure their safety or the safety of the natural resources within those parks. You want people just carting off pieces of Anasazi ruins from Mesa Verde? How about folks executing bears for fun in Yosemite Valley? You have any how much garbage would accumulate in a single weekend in a place like Great Smoky Mountains NP? Would you like to see someone spray painting graffiti on the Liberty Bell? It would be fucking anarchy with no employees the maintain the parks. I personally helped close every single public facility on USFS land because there would be no one to clean the bathrooms or ensure public safety in our buildings.

>>648936
I never had to wear a USFS uniform when out working in the field, which I did everyday unless it was deluging outside. So they're out there, you just don't see them.

>>648834
What are
>BBNP
>Padre Island National Seashore
>Guadalupe Mtns. NP
>over 100 state parks
>18 national wildlife refuges

If you can't get /out/ in Texas, you're a moron.

>>649082
Are you the guy who maintains the "trail closed" signs?

>>647558
>Plant trees to cut them down.
>Leave some trees so the environment got a net gain positive.
>Green Peace will hate this.

>>649075
An yet there they were keeping people out. So.. Guess they could afford people there despite the shutdown?

It was nothing more than the usual bullshit posturing you see any time someone threatens to take the governments money away. Like when a city wants to cut taxes and they're like oh noes better shut down the volunteer fire department! Police gonna be funded as ever though, someone has to write all those tickets for minor bullshit.

>>649144
Only the LEOs and essential personnel worked. They don't get paid during a shutdown.

What would you suggest they do? Just leave the parks open? I've already explained to you why they couldn't so cut the shit.

>>649085
Obviously there's places to hike in Texas I'd just like public land without many rules for wheeling, shooting, and fucking around

>>647092
Fuck that guy and anything he recommends.
8/10 rustled.
>captcha: select all images with steak

>>649144
Your such a fucking ignorant fucktard

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>>649117
I was the guy tracking bats that I had caught the night before in a mist net, taking soil samples for a research project to determine the habitat requirements an endangered salamander had, checking on nest boxes to do a census of flying squirrels, electrofishing in remote streams to see what their health was, or digging up invasive plants.

But no, you're right, we didn't do any work.

>>649189
>wheeling

Wheeling seriously fucks up the land by causing erosion and stripping the top soil. Its the same reason why you don't cut switch backs.

>>647444
Nope. Scotty Walker.

>>649168
>They don't get paid during a shutdown
Actually government employees all got paid for the last shutdown. Essentially got extra paid vacation. Any future shutdown will be the same way.

>>649259
Congress had to vote on wether to give employees back pay or not. It's not a given.

>>647446
>Public=for the people
But it's not treated that way.
"People" should be able to do what they want on public lands, hunt, ride ATV, graze cattle, snowmobile.
The fucking environmentalists are the only ones who get their way with NOTHING being done on so many public lands.
That doesn't sound public to me.

>>649259
>>649303
Every time that happened they got back pay.
I'm old enough to remember the '90s.
It is a paid vacation for those overindulged crybabies.

>>648803

If you think you can do a better job managing the land, then why don't you just go a join them to take them down from the inside.

>>649340
Why would I want to associate with criminals?

>>649324

Not everyone is a redneck retard like you. Just because something is public doesn't mean YOU get to do whatever YOU want. When I'm out in nature I don't want to hear a bunch of hootin, hollerin dipshits muffing on atvs. Its your own fault you can't be trusted.

>>649351

You're an idiot. If you want to change something you have to change it from within the system. Pushing on the outside does nothing. Go read a book.

>>649324
You can do all those things on public land.

There was a snowmobile club that volunteered to do some trail maintenance in an Oregon National Forest recently, they brought in rented heavy equipment and proceeded to over $200,000 worth of damage, including uprooting trees, smashing culverts and tearing up roads.

So no, private parties do not do a better job of maintaining public lands.

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>>649365
Not to worry, I have a permit.

>>649433

That's because the private parties didn't own the land so they dont care if its destroyed. Everyone trashes public land including the forest service

>>649507
>including the forest service

In what way?

>>649507
Speak for yourself.

>>649530
The forest service goes in builds roads and buildings on pristine land. They also do bogus shit like fire suppression which makes fires way worse causing millions of acres to be permanently destroed every year. Cmon dude everyone knows the government is corrupt

>>649642
>>649507
You're really starting to lose the audience now. You're all over the place. You gotta focus, keep a solid narrative.

>>649324
>"People" should be able to do what they want on public lands, clearcut, strip mine, and dump garbage

Cmon. Not all forest service employees are welfare queens

>>649830
I think the people here are saying they are against the government allowing this behavior in exchange for bribes

>>649834
I remember when the forest service just drove old pickups, now what they are driving looks like military grade vehicles but I guess that's what you need to stop families from picnicing in the woods

sounds like someone ITT is mad he got told to pick up the garbage in his campsite

>>650115
>not just throwing it in the river to let nature dispose of it without filling up the landfill

>>647523
If you sell it to people who use it out run out of /out/doors and get more condos.

>>650115
Or got caught burning it

>Should public land be taken from the people and given to individuals like Cliven Bundy recommends.

>>649247
WAIT WHAT?
WHAT THE FUCK IS SCOTT "EMPTYING MY NINE IN THE UNION LINE" WALKER DOING WITH OUR LAND?

>>650193
>implying the forest Leo aren't too busy poaching game

>>650215
Probably selling it to the Koch brothers for a sweetheart no-bid price, if history is any indication

>>647625

underrated post

>>647873

I use BLM land in various places on damn near a weekly basic (shooting, fishing, dirt-biking, camping) and I think you're probably just some angsty fuckwit who got caught by a ranger fucking a rabbit or some shit.

BLM does a damn fine job in my area. Them and the NFS need to spend more on fire prevention operations, but that's up to the fucks in congress

>>650575
The only people who think the BLM is fine are BLM employees. They are universally hated by the public

>>650691

You're clearly just delusional white trash.

>>651078
>I will play the race card because I'm a self hating white faggot

>>651167

Race doesn't have anything to do with it. We're both Caucasian, and you are clearly the one raised in a single-wide.

>>647092

Absolutely not. Anyone who wants their own land now can get it easily enough. You give that land out it will be swallowed up by big business within a generation.

>>651174
>white

>race has nothing to do with it

Sure thing faggot govt worker who posts hate speech on the taxpayer dime

>>651307

White isn't a race. White trash: also not a race.

I won't hold it against you since you are in fact white trash.

I get your idea but it's retarded. If people could just do whatever they wanted, it would be stripped of wildlife by day 2 (+100's of hunting accidents), full of garbage by day 14 and it would be a post-apocalyptic wasteland from thereon after.

>>648480
Let me guess: you live in the panhandle, aka the home of low iq sissy retards.

>>651329
So white trash are the people who pay for you ivory tower libs to destroy our forests?

>>651329
>White isn't a race. White trash: also not a race.
Have you not seen NASCAR?

>>651404
>White trash pay taxes

Hahahaha

>>651579
Laugh all you want but this fall weather proves that global warming doesn't real

>>651686
Bullshit. The east isn't getting a winter this year

>>651710
>the east

I thought it was "global" warming

>>651686
>>651710
>>651831
>what is El Nino
>What are weather patterns

>>651926
Why do warmists always point to local weather when they try to prove global cooling warming anthropomorphophotogenic climate change

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>>651686
>this fall weather proves that global warming doesn't real
one regions weather disproves a global phenomenon when all the other global trends support it

>>652278

What trends are you talking about?

There hasn't been any warming in your entire life

Global warming shills get shlonged

>Drudge is touting the “record heat” forecast for Christmas Eve, even though most of the country will be below normal temperature. The best Drudge could come up with was 86 degrees at Orlando.

>Christmas Eve 1955 was much warmer. Three fourths of the country was over 60 degrees, and Ashland Kansas, Geary Oklahoma and Encinal Texas were all over 90 degrees. Fort Lauderdale was 85 degrees. All of the stations below were over 60 degrees on Christmas Eve, 1955.

>Last winter, the East Coast had record cold. That was ignored because it was “less than 1% of the Earth.” But this week, the Eastern US defines the global climate.

>In Irving Berlin’s 1954 musical “White Christmas” – the story line was 70 degrees in Vermont on Christmas eve and no snow. That was why they were “Dreaming of a White Christmas”

stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2015/12/24/christmas-eve-1955-was-much-warmer/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

>>652371
Tragedy of the commons deals with real problems as opposed to the government fraud that is global temperature might be going up or down

>Should public land be given back to the people like Cliven Bundy recommends.

public land no one gives a fuck about?
sure

public land people enjoy for /outing/?
fuck off

>>649642
>fire suppression

Fire suppression is kind of a damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't sort of deal. Fire ecologists and management officers are well aware of the effects of strict suppression tactics but they're also aware of how the general public would react if a small incident that could have been contained in the initial attack phase turned into an expensive project fire that destroyed multiple structures.

New management plans are calling for less immediate suppression and more monitoring where appropriate. This is already the case for lightning caused fires that start in wilderness areas.

>>647092
>Listens to Swans once.

>>647092
Ver few things worry me more than giving public land to private organizations. The government might be shitty, but it's better than private corporations with unrestricted access to untapped natural resources. Even if they were smart enough to keep a few token parks open for tourist revenue like Yosemite and Yellowstone, they would fuck up so much great, lesser known land.

>>648027
Probably illegal use and destruction of public land and other illegal activities or they wouldn't have to hide them out on public land, but FUK DA GUBERMENT FOR OPRESSING ME, I should be able to do whatever I want with public land!!!!

>>648765
NUH UH liberal lies!!!!

>>648820
>if the states took back all this federal land they wouldnt have the budget to maintain a large majority of it so they would sell it off
This is the real reason many are lobbying for the land to switch to state management, because it would necessitate selling off most of the land to private ownership and there would be a lot of money to be made in the process for people with wealth and connections to get it on the cheap.
But never underestimate the ability of uneducated retards to vote against their own interests if it means they can stick it to big government/liberals/sjws/jews/whatever other boogieman.

>>649168
>What would you suggest they do? Just leave the parks open?
Yeah!!!!
Then everything would be perfect and everyone would see that we don't need any government!!!

>>649367
>Go read a book.
Fucking liberal big government BULLSHIT!

>>650018
Yeah good ol' bundy just want to have a picnic with his whole government subsidized herd of cows with public land resources as the meal but the big mean government just bullies and oppresses him ;^)

>>654760
So your solution is to continue the status quo where political donors use bribes to acquire government land from the federal government?

>>654879
So your solution is to just hand the public land directly over to the bribers?

Brilliant!

>>654901
Sounds like we both agree that the status quo is bad but you want to continue rewarding crooked politicians and businessmen and I would prefer the land be turned over to the citizens where it can be used and protected

>>655004
Aka public land.

>>655023
So then who enforces land use? What happens if two groups of citizens want to do different things with the land? What if a private company decides they want to build a shopping mall there?

Please explain how your plan works.

>>655004
>Government agencies aren't made up of citizens
>Land management agencies aren't made up of people who are passionate about public land and try to do the best that they can

>>655242
Government workers are the masters and the citizens are servants. People just need to deal with it.

>>655315
That's the way it should be, though.

>>647092
>Cliven Bundy
Fuck no. These memetarded, knee-jerk anti-gov't "conservatives" just want one thing, more free shit for doing nothing. To top it off, their take on the planet and its land comes from their holy jebus bible thumping cohorts, "let's fuck the world up the ass because jesus is coming to save us anyway".

If they're going to give the land to assholes like Craven Moorehead and his band of weekend warriors then they should make sure to give me a small piece so I can sit on the high ground and scope these fuckwads from a half mile away while they play Army Man down yonder.

The land belongs to the people not to a person. Fuck these discharged-from-the-National-Guard-for-diabeetus shit for brains idiots.

>>648887
That's a tragedy, but it was the local sheriff's deputies according to that article, not the big, bad federal government.

>>652402
You're right, Cliven Bundy is a pedophile.

>>651686
>clearly sarcasm

>>652330
thats outright bullshit unfortunately for you cletus

>>654879
so the state officials cant be bribed even easier then the federal ones?

Everyone in this thread is literally emotional about desert.

Out of all of you who live in Nevada, have you ever driven in the eastern half of the state which is all desert? There is not a lick of anything going on. The Federal Government ought to part with at least a chunk of the land it has out in the middle of Nevada because it will literally never be good for ANYTHING. If someone wants to try I would not be opposed to letting them.

If you don't live in Nevada, imagine you live in a giant wonderful desert. Now imagine only 2% of the whole desert you can live in, the other 98% you can't do a whole lot in.

You are now in Nevada.

>>654609
You are a know nothing. That is literally the system we have in place now.

>>655770
Bitch please

>>647092
>>655677
Pussy /out/fags just jelly that /k/ stood up to the BLM and fucking won.

You libtards go back and suck that forest ranger dick. Fucking morons.

File: SpecialK.jpg (65KB, 850x429px) Image search: [Google]

65KB, 850x429px

>>656363
Pic related.

>>656363
>/k/

Fuck off. I don't want to be associated with those "militia" idiots.

>>656378
>>656378
>Fuck off. I don't want to be associated with those "militia" idiots.
Then you probably should get off 4chan then.

Again please continue sucking that ranger dick on your 2 day "trip to the woods" before going back to your yuppie cookie cutter house.

I have more respect for men who make their living doing /out/ things then some casual on here playing internet tough guy.

>>656537
>I have more respect for men who make their living doing /out/ things
Wouldn't BLM employees and Park Rangers qualify?

>casual on here playing internet tough guy.
Funny considering you're doing exactly that.

Hate to bump this fucking thread but everyone interested should check out what is going on in Oregon. Bundy's son and co. are occupying the Malheur National Wildlife refuge and are demanding the government cede control of the 1 million + acre Malheur National Forest. They plan to graze, mine, and log these publicly owned lands, with no more claim to them than you or I

>>657822
I really hope the Feds shoot them

>>657831
"By law, arson on federal land carries a five-year mandatory minimum sentence. When the Hammonds were originally sentenced, they argued that the five-year mandatory minimum terms were unconstitutional and the trial court agreed and imposed sentences well below what the law required based upon the jury’s verdicts. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, however, upheld the federal law, reasoning that “given the seriousness of arson, a five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense.” The court vacated the original, unlawful sentences and ordered that the Hammonds be resentenced “in compliance with the law.” In March 2015, the Supreme Court rejected the Hammonds’ petitions for certiorari. Today, Chief Judge Aiken imposed five year prison terms on each of the Hammonds, with credit for time they already served."

They might be scumbags but they went to trial, the American people found their sentencing to be unconstitutional, they were given proper sentencing, served their the time. The End. Except it wasn't the end and the feds were all like how dare someone say we are doing something unconstitutional, back to prison plebs.

I don't want to see any farm to federal agents because they don't make the law but at the same time if the people don't stand up to the government they will simply do what they want.

>>657173
>Wouldn't BLM employees and Park Rangers qualify?

Not really since they prevent far more people from outdoor livelihoods via trivial laws and endless regulations.

Also there's no need to get mad at me calling you out. Statistically 50% of the population lives in yuppie suburbia. Odds are against you m8.

>>657840
How's it going Bundy? Get your subsidy check yet?

>>657822
So basically they're using an unrelated court case an excuse to try and seize 1 million acres of public land for their own for-profit ventures.

Such great heroes of the people they are, wanting to take away public space to strip it for their own gain.

>>657840
You're right, they're not terrorists. They're just opportunistic vultures.

>>647364
Same

fucking Utah man.

>>647354
you're either ignorant/optimistic or hate the wild

>>647555
you're a fucking idiot, you're right about Indians but clearly are not well traveled in rural America.

>>657839
Most ranchers and loggers don't have a problem with the feds. Grazing fee prices haven't changed since the 60s and logging parcels get replanted by the usfs at no cost to the loggers.

Bundy's a manipulative leech who wants free land but without having to buy it, pay property taxes or liability insurance.

>Statistically 50% of the population lives in yuppie suburbia. Odds are against you m8.
Odds are against you too.

>>657901
The government stole all the land of the wildlife refuge from the original settlers in the last 30 years. NO one is allowed to use the wildlife refuge except the government employees. In fact even the wildlife is fleeing the refuge because it has been mismanaged.

The arson case is related because the Hammond family has refused to sell their land so the BLM are harrassing the family to bankrupt them. They are bullies with guns. It's well documented but I'm sure you would rather remain an ignorant government shill.

>>658011
It was established in 1908. Also give me a citation showing that wildlife is 'fleeing'

>>658011
You are a liar.

>>658011
>NO one is allowed to use the wildlife refuge except the government employees.

Source?

>>658011
The Hammond case is not related to the Wildlife Refuge at all. Seizing the refuge for private use will not do anything to get the Hammond's out of jail.

The Bundys do not care about the Hammonds, they do not care about freedom, they do not care about people like you or me. They care about getting richer and staying richer.

The wealthy won't save you, they will walk right over to pick up a dollar. Someday when you stop being an angry teenager you might realize this.

>>658018
>>658025
He has no source because he's making shit up.

>>658018
>>658023
>>658025
>>658027

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/#more-110497

It's all detailed in here. The government stole the land and is jailing the last private landowner. Sorry shills but the government is a pack of criminals and I appreciate the patriots who seized this land and will give it back to its rightful owners.

The entire history of this refuge is criminal as it was set up as an injun reservation with no indians

>>657899

Bundy doesn't get any subsidies my welfare gobbling friend. You just heard that from Jon Stewart.

>inb4 white guy sudsidy etc

>>658086
access to public land is a subsidy anon

>>658086
You're objectively wrong. I don't take a dime of welfare and have always worked full time to support myself, Cliven Bundy takes a healthy slice of the $38 Billion in tax payer dollars that the beef industry gets every year.

>>658080
You yourself are shilling for a criminal who wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.

>>658080
So I reiteraye, what does that do to help the Hammonds? It does nothing, they're just using it as an excuse for a land grab.

>>658080
>far right blog with little to no citation
>says the land was purchased from surrounding land owners, not stolen
>report claiming birds are leaving refuge is a non public report that's more than 40 years old
>makes no mention of the refuge only being accessible to government employees

>>658095
>>658087
What subsidy does Bundy get?
>>658097
Bundy isn't a criminal
>>658099
The government won't stop harrassing Hammond until they get his land. And I heard those patriots are going to start unwinding all the land grabs and give the stolen land back to its owners. The feds need to leave harney county and fuck off back to Washington DC.

The whole thing is ridiculous since the settlers created the original conditions to attract the wildlife and then the wildlifes presence is used as an excuse to steal the land.

>>658101
It's got citations you just don't like the facts coming out

>>658106
The federal beef subsidies that have been mentioned in this thread several times. Big ranchers like Bundy are happy to take taxpayer money while talking shit out the other side of their mouths. He's a hypocrit.

Bundy and his son are stereotypical entitled rich kids. They're sitting on a massive pile of old family money, but since neither of them earned it they don't appreciate what they already have. They're not salt of the earth joes, they're spoiled brats in cowboy boots.

>>658106
>back to its owners

You mean the natives the federal government displaced to make room for settlers? Cause that would be incredibly generous of them to do so.

>>658109
>federal beef subsidies

Cmon certainly you have something real

>>658121

Injuns didn't believe in land ownership . try again

>>658123
>Injuns didn't believe in land ownership

This is bullshit on many levels. Injuns weren't a unified culture or polity. There were many different societies some of which had private land ownership, some of which had communal ownership and some of which were nomadic.

The fact that you spew such blantantly uniformed opinions makes me understand why you're so easily manipulated by guys like Bundy (who BTW wouldn't even have had a ranch to inherit if the Federal Government hadn't sent the army to clear the land for his family).

>>658123
http://lasvegassun.com/news/2014/may/04/subsidies-benefit-welfare-ranchers/

http://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=livestock

http://www.publiclandsranching.org/book.htm

>>647092
What does Max Hardcore have to do with /out/?

>>658123
lol bundy why do you even post here?
you are an embarassment to all of us ranchers.

>>658126
The fact that you pretend to know so much about injuns is hysterical. Did you also get a degree in feminist studies?. BTW, no one cares about Indians except as pets to showcase how progressive you are for caring about inferior beings

>>658138
So now you're memeing because you've run out of lies and bullshit to spew.

>>658130
OK. So we agree that Bundy got no subsidies. Wind and solar get subsidies. Black people get subsidies, moderate Muslim terrorists get subsidies. Illegal aliens and school teachers and BLM wreckers all get subsidies. But Bundy does not.

>>658141
Well he got to graze his cattle on public land for free for 20 years.

>>658139
I haven't lied yet. I heard for years about how the noble savages were so superior because don't believe in ownership. What that really meant tho is that they just went around killing and taking. They had no concept of rule of law etc. Heck how can you own land if you can't even write or have deeds?

>>658148
Also Harry Reid tried to steal Bundy's land to sell it to the Chinese. Typical government crook

>>658152
Source?

>>658152
Do you mean the land that Bundy was grazing on? Because that wasn't his, his family never had legal claim of ownership on it. It's been the property of the Federal Government since Mexico ceded it in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848. To the best of my knowledge the government has never tried to take the Bundy family's legally owned land, just remove his cattle from federal land.

>>658152
http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp

>"I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But I don’t recognize the United States government as even existing."

- Cliven Bundy


>The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.

Article 1, Section 2 of the Nevada State Constitution

>>658157

http://www.infowars.com/breaking-sen-harry-reid-behind-blm-land-grab-of-bundy-ranch/

The Bureau of Land Management, whose director was Sen. Harry Reid’s (D-Nev.) former senior adviser, has purged documents from its web site stating that the agency wants Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy’s cattle off of the land his family has worked for over 140 years in order to make way for solar panel power stations.
Corrupt Democratic Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.) working with the Chinese gov't to take land from hard-working Americans.
Corrupt Democratic Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.) working with the Chinese gov’t to take land from hard-working Americans.
Deleted from BLM.gov but reposted for posterity by the Free Republic, the BLM document entitled “Cattle Trespass Impacts” directly states that Bundy’s cattle “impacts” solar development, more specifically the construction of “utility-scale solar power generation facilities” on “public lands.”

>>658106
>Bundy isn't a criminal
>Grazing fees and permits are part of the law of the land
>Refuses to pay and continues to graze illegally

Sure sounds like an upstanding guy

>>658184
See
>>658165

The land ENN wanted to build on was 20 miles away from the land Bundy was grazing and the project was canceled in 2013, before the stand-off happened.

Even Fox News and Breitbart.com corroborated these facts.

>>658184
See the snopes article above. They dropped the deal in 2013 and the land they were going to buy wasn't even near the ranch.

>>658187
If he was doing anything illegal they would arrest him you government shill

>>658190


>Even Fox News and Breitbart.com corroborated these facts.

But you don't ever believe fox news. Why are you using them as a source?

>>658214
Know how I know you're trolling?

Reminder that two of Bundy's patriots murdered two police officers and an innocent civilian in cold blood.

>>658233
Since you hate cops you should be delighted. Or do you only hate cops that rightly murder unarmed black babies on their way to church

>>658247
:^)

>>658247
No, I'm just trying help this thread hit the bump limit.

But thanks for confirming that conservatives endorse cold blooded murder and that white guys with guns are a bigger threat to American safety than ISIS.

If any violence occurs at the Wildlife refuge, it will be started by the militia. Several of them have already tweeted that they are anticipating a fire fight with the feds. They are a bunch of wannabe soldiers who want to start a war because they want to be heroes and martyrs.

>>658251

>2016
>doesn't know how to sage

>>657840

>a bunch of blacks stage an unarmed protest
>cops roll in with fully automatic machine guns, tear gas and riot vehicles

>a bunch of whites start an armed protest

>Two cop cars and a bullhorn

Further proof that white people only look out for their own.

>>658257
This is more entertaining, frankly.

So an unregulated mitilia is occupying a government building and demanding that the feds release the Hammonds and surrender the park.

They're retarded and here's why. They have given the feds absolutely no reason to comply with their demands and they have no leverage to enforce them.

There is no threat to anyone's lives, they have no hostages or children present, there's no sensitive information or government secrets and the building isn't even that expensive.

All that they have to do is set up a perimeter and wait them out. The militia said that they will let hunters and loggers use the refuge, but police just have to stop them before they enter the refuge.

The militia can't prevent them from doing so without escalating the situation.

>>658283
>no hostages or children present

I like the way you think!

Let's go kidnap some lol....er, children, and go join those guys.

They also seem to moronically think that because they control the building, they control the whole area. But they don't, they control a building roughly the size of a suburban family home. They've just put themselves in a position to be surrounded.

It's like conquoring Wyoming and declaring that you now control the U.S.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/drama_in_burns_ends_with_quiet.html

"The Bundy family of Nevada joined with hard-core militiamen Saturday to take over the headquarters of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, vowing to occupy the remote federal outpost 30 miles southeast of Burns for years."

>>658259
[citation needed]

>>658291
Man so the neighboring miitia groups have already disavowed the "occupation" and the Hammonds have publicly stated that they want no part of it.

So it's a bunch of cold, moderately armed good ol' boys squatting in a small office building in the woods.

So much for the revolution.

>>658298
Gimme a minute to dig up the article, but do far only a handful of Oregon State and Sheriff's Patrol cars are on site. No SWAT teams or tanks.

They haven't even set up a full blockade yet and allowed the owner of a nearby RV park to bring the protesters chili.

So here's my question, what if the Refuge staff attempts to just go back to work on Monday? What are the protestors going to do? Threaten to shoot them? Physically remove them from the building?

They said they're not there to hurt anybody, so what are they going to do?

>>658326
>>658298

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/01/03/militia-members-occupy-us-building-in-oregon-after-protest/78226600/

>Peltier wrote on Facebook that the group had brought children into the refuge.

That was a huge fucking mistake.

>>658213
>Can't come up with a rebuttal
>I'll just call him a shill

>>658371
Mmmm this is gonna turn into Waco II: The Re-Wacoing

Can't fucking wait. Selfish delusional hillbilly fucks.

>>658371
Jesus I really hope they don't have kids with them. If they do they're even bigger morons than I thought.

The Bundy boys should take minute to read up on the Alcatraz occupation and why it was such a flop.

They've added guns to equation now, too.

>>658393
No, it'll definitely be more like Alcatraz, a bunch of protestors take over a non-essential building and the feds just wait them out. The government will set up a temporary office somewhere else in the forest, cut utilities to the occupied building and go about their business.

Meanwhile the open invitation they put out will draw in a bunch of fringe nuts who will trash the place and stir up trouble and then someone, possibly a child, will get sick or injured and the whole thing will come tumbling down around their ears.

The worst case scenario is that some fringe asshile takes a shot at someone intentionally or accidentally.

Ammon Bundy said they've been planning this for awhile, but he did not think this through.

>>658397
I'm sure he planned it to the most thorough extent he's capable of. But yeah what r'tarded dead-end. I'm sure they're thinking this is gonna be like Fort Sumter.

>>658401
I thought this was amusing at first, but now that there might be children involved I'm not laughing anymore.

>>658403
I still think it's amusing. I don't have much empathy for children. I don't know why.

>>658422
You might want to look in to that.

>>658430
I don't wish anything bad on anyone, anon, I just have a very "natural" outlook on these things. Shitty parents don't get to pass their genes on. I wouldn't put my kids in harm's way nor would I force them to act with me against society. The kids don't deserve to have anything happen to them, but tough titty. This habit of wanting to rescue other peoples' kids because of their bad parenting and ineptitude is a social construct. That doesn't happen in naitcher. But anyway this isn't about the kids either way.

Give the land to me bitches, free land whoo00!

>>658433
This.

Both nature and nurture are indicating that the children will turn out like the parents.

Odds are the kids whose first memory is going with their parents to seize federal buildings are, in aggregate, going to be a plague on humanity for the next 60-70 years.

The humane thing to do is burn them out.

The cops aren't going to roll in big on this, they know that'll just get more militia nuts worked up.

They'll just sit back, hold the line and wait for one of these dime store army men to accidentally blow his toes off.

>>658095
>You're objectively wrong. I don't take a dime of welfare and have always worked full time to support myself

uh, congratulations ? The money will still be collected and spent regardless.

>>658434
They already own the land, they are essentially arguing over stewardship.

>>658448
The point is that trying to dodge the truth by insinuating I'm a lazy welfare recipient ignores the fact that guys like Bundy are bigger welfare queens than any poor black with a big screen TV.

>>658457
well attacking you personally is dumb. However, receiving welfare doesn't make a person a hypocrite in the slightest.

I hope the feds go Ruby Ridge on these fucking hicks.

>>658338
They are starting the work on dismantling the fake Indian reservation the government illegally set up. They are going to return the land to the ranchers it was stolen from. The BLM is no longer welcome or needed in harney county. The BLM was using this "wildlife refuge" as a base to harm citizens of Oregon. In my opinion they have forfeited any right to be there.

Asset forfeiture has long been used by the feds and its great that this tactic is now being used against them. Thanks to all the heroes and patriots for telling the feds to go away and standing for those who the government is terrorizing

>>658457
Again, what subsidies does Bundy get? You seem happy about welfare niggers but angry at productive citizens. That's pretty standard for millennials but you should be happy that these patriots have liberated the land that the BLM has closed off and been trashing for decades.

>>658461

Not as much as you secretly hope to get cornholed by an alphabet agent in jackboots while he shoots your dog.

>>658649
But how can they return the refuge to the people they stole it from when those people are in a federal prison for being degenerate criminals? IMHO all those ranches should be shut down because overgrazing by those sickly dog food cows does more harm than good. And the ranchers themselves are nothing more than common criminals akin to pedophiles and rapists (raping the land).

>>658649
Nigs you must be shrooming

>>658458
It does when they openly claim to not recognize the existence of the Federal government.

>>658649
They can't do that, though. They don't have the ability or the leverage to do anything other than huddle up in an office building. They're literally just squatting.

>>658652
You do know that without federal subsidies Cliven Bundy would be out of business, right?

If he had to charge the fair market value for what it actually costs to raise cattle in the desert, a steak would cost about $200 and the cheapest ground Chuck would be about $50 a pound.

The government literally spends billions a year keeping ranchers afloat so we can have cheaper beef.

Kids like you crack me up because you live in this bubble of first world luxury supported by the federal government and then you go on the internet and complain that the federal government does nothing for you.

>>658649
How? How are they going to accomplish that?

>>647553
Can confirm I grew up on a Reservation. Everyone would rather act like niggers then work toward a common goal.

>>658712
So what subsidies does he get? or are you just going to keep repeating 'he get subsidies' over and over like a nigger. Cmon, use your words

>>658712
I get what your saying but by your logic the government should be able to walk into any of their subsidized industries and appropriate assets and we should be okay with it.

>>658757

Well, as has been mentioned earlier, there's the discounted grazing fees he gets to pasture his herd on land he never owned. $1.35 AUM (animal unit month) which is far Far FAR lower than he would get on state or private land. Private grazing fees on the same kind of land could cost up to $20/AUM, who do you think eats the cost of that extra $19.65/AUM? Uncle Sam does. Of course in Cliven Bundy's case he didn't even pay the $1.35 so he got free access to land he does not own to make commercial profit.

Then there's $30-$40 billion yearly in beef industry subsidies that have also been covered earlier in the thread.

Then there's $550 million in free marketing and advertising that the USDA gives beef producers every year. Beef! It's what's for dinner! That adds I think about $40 billion in sales each year.

Then there's stuff that doesn't directly put money in Bundy's pocket but makes it a lot easier. Like fuel subsidies for the trucks and trains that carry his beefvto market, subsidies for veterinary science research that produces higher yield per cow. And all the money the government spent on hydrologyband irrigation that makes farming and ranching in a desert even possible in the first place.

All in all the government has spent billions to make sure that Clive Bundy can make a living putting steaks on our plates and all they asked him to do was pay a token $1.35 AUM to graze his cattle.

That's one hell of a god damn good bargain.

The fact of the matter is that Cliven Bundy denies the authority of the Federal Government but reaps the benefit of its existence every single day.

Some day, when you're not an angry 19 year old and your parents aren't paying your internet bill anymore, you'll understand how much work it takes by the government to keep this utopia of cheap steaks and high speed internet afloat.

>>658759
No, what I'm saying is that when the spends billions each year to keep your industry afloat and then asks you to pay a token fee in return, you shouldn't threaten to shoot their employees.

Oh, I forgot to mention the $76 million the government spends each year to round up and remove wild horses and burros in places like Nevada and Utah so that there's more available grazing for cattle.

Again, that's a pretty good deal for $1.35 AUM.

And just for the record, I think the situation with the Hammonds is fucked up. They should not have been ordered back to jail and the judge is in the wrong.

>>658765
>30 billion in beef subsidies
Nice made up number. It's interesting to me that you can't even verbalize what a beef subsidy is. It's just another buzzword like Racism or rape culture

>>658772
>Money spent protecting cute invasive species from slaughter so they can be adopted by animal rights activists is a beef subsidy

>>658649
You're pretty delusional if you think they have any power to do that

>>658766
You are right. It should always be the BLM that does the murdering

>>658774
Just because you don't actually know what the word "subsidy" is doesn't mean that it's a meme word

>>658776
The BLM threatened Bundy. They showed with armed personnel because Bundy threatened them.

He stopped paying his fees so the BLM took him to court. The court ruled that since Bundy has no claim of ownership to that land, the BLM had the right to remove his cattle from it if he did not.

When the BLM announced their intention to do so, Bundy threatened violence on any BLM employee that tried to remove his cattle.

The government isn't always righteous and angelic, but in this case Bundy was in the wrong, Bundy was the aggressor and the BLM employees had a right to be protected while doing their jobs.

Just because the government is wrong in the Hammond case doesn't mean Bundy was right in his.

>>658774
>meme words

Changing the subject because you got your shit pushed in again, I see.

Don't worry kid, the adults will handle all the big scary real world stuff. You just keep chugging Mt. Dew and shit posting while the rest of us keep you comfortable.

Holy shit. I just saw the press conference. They read off their list of grievances and said they are starting to rehabilitate the stolen land and returning it to its owners. And they aren't leaving.

>>658790
Rehabilitating it how? They're just occupying a cabin in the woods.

I'm pretty sure the Feds are going to cut off their utilities and just wait it out.

>>658786
Our government is corrupt. All three branches. The government will murder whoever they please just like they did to a rancher here in Idaho recently. If Bundy takes out even a single government thug before he is murdered at least he died trying

>>658790

How exactly are they going to return the land?

File: federal_lands[1].jpg (631KB, 1938x1592px) Image search: [Google]

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>>658765
>Well, as has been mentioned earlier, there's the discounted grazing fees he gets to pasture his herd on land he never owned. $1.35 AUM (animal unit month) which is far Far FAR lower than he would get on state or private land.

talking about market value when the federal government has such vast holdings is a joke.

>>658792
Protip, if the government wanted to murder Bundy he'd have died 20 years ago before he was even in the papers.

They're not trying to kill him.

>>658794
So you're saying $1.35 AUM is not more than a fair price to graze cattle on someone's land?

>>658792
There was no conspiracy to murder the rancher in Idaho, it was a result of poorly trained local PD blowng up the situation.

The BLM wasn't even involved.

>>658791
The refuge is ranchland the government stole and let deteriorate. In order to get the wildlife to return it has to be managed properly, not by Washington bureaucrats.

>cabin in the woods

Wat? This was the federal compound where the government plotted its crimes against the community. Probably lots of evidence hidden awsy

>>658794
>implying public land is a bad thing

>>658796
The whole AUM argument is just shilling. The feds charge less its true but they also have onerous rules and requirements which are very costly.

Of course the best thing to do would be the feds sell the land and then you faggots could shill another stupid argument about why meat is bad

>>658804
Cool buzzwords, reddit.

>>658796
I am saying we cannot know what the actual price would be. Like I am from the east-coast. If the federal government owned 53% of the beaches here, they couldn't say oh look at this great deal I can give you on beach access because they artificially shrunk the market. Who knows what the actual market rates would end up without their interference.

>>658807
You mad that your BLM buddies got cucked out of their private clubhouse m8?

>>658808
Federal grazing fees were supposed to basically match private fees. But while private fees are now in the $20 range federal prices are still basically the same since they were instituted. It's like this because of millionaire ranchers and their politician buddies. This is costing tax payers hundreds of millions of dollars a year.

>>658799
It's a small building with a couple of offices and probably a storage room for shovels.

Most records would be stored in a computer that requires an ID and a PIN number. You'd probably find a few wildlife maps from the 70's, but that's it.

>>658812
You mad your criminal buddies are going to get cucked in prison?

>>658818
>Federal grazing fees were supposed to basically match private fees

It's impossible for them to but don't let the follies of central planning derail the federal government.

>>658819
Oh, and I guess they could ruin Malheur's strategic supply of brochures telling you to not leave your shit in the woods.

>>658818
Sounds like a good argument to sell off the land the politicians are mismanaging

>>658819
The important records aren't on the computer my young friend. They are in file cabinets. People used to use paper and typewriters. And the government thugs never imagined they would lose control of their fort. Should make for good reading and hopefully the BLM crooks will go to prison.

>>658872
Or reapproach their fee setting strategy and increase AUM prices. Of course this would most likely cause a lot of ranchers to go broke and lose their property and cattle. But that's OK too because only a small percentage of the beef we eat is from sagebrush steppe rangeland cattle. Most are slaughtered for dog food or sent to China because it tastes like shit.

The sherrif just gave a press conference. He was practically crying. I guess he realizes there is literally nothing he can do that won't be a bloodbath and even tho he takes his orders from the feds I'm sure he doesn't want to murder so many patriots. Maybe the blood money isn't worth selling your soul to the devil.

>>658872
I've worked for the Feds as a biologist. Most of our stuff is digitized or created on computer now and has been for awhile.

>>659005
Also, any important paper records would most likely go to an offsite archive. Based on how small that building is, they probably don't have a lot of room.

>>658804
What are those onerous rules and how costly are they?

>>659107
It varies, but often includes fencing, riparian improvements, road construction and donations to political campaigns

>>659131
>fencing, riparian improvements, road construction

are you implying they make the ranchers pay for these things?

>>659131
And how much do those cost ranchers roughly?

>>659133
I'm not implying, I'm stating fact

>>659158
That's partly what the grazing fees pay for.

>Federal law requires that 50 percent of all grazing revenue, for both BLM and USFS, goes into range rehabilitation and improvement funds. Activities that can be funded include, but are not limited to, constructing fences to contain livestock, installing water tanks, building impoundments to improve access to water for livestock, and seeding to improve vegetation and forage. Half of these funds are designated for use in the district, region or national forest from which they were generated.

For the most part, people are greedy, uncaring, and short-sighted in the extreme. That is why they cannot be trusted with the preservation of our natural history.

Anyone hiking the Appalachian Trail can tell you that it would not exist if people were allowed to own the land there.

>>659158
>I'm not implying it, I'm talking bullshit


FTFY

>>659165

>everything should be owned by the government because they always know best and are as noble as injuns

>>659160
So if Bundy paid $100,000 in fees the bean counters stick that in a dedicated account with the $ from all the other ranchers. All together hundreds of millions of dollars.

That's where the bullshit starts. Salaries, new pickups, iPhone, global warming conferences in hawaii for all the BLM faggots around the country get charged against that fund. Most of these things have nothing to do with range rehab and certainly not to the benefit of any rancher. If there is money left over they have the bean counter transfer it wherever they want.

I used to be a government accountant. What I described is not the exception, but the status quo. BTW they do the same thing with fishing and hunting fees. 80% of that gets siphoned off for shit like endangered snails or given to Indian tribes

>>659363
Ok I'll take your word for it Mr. Used-To-Be-Accountant who probably got fired for incompetence.

And Bundy hasn't paid shit in 20 years but still freeloads like a common nigger.

>>659379
You are obviously a BLM employee, shitposting on the taxpayer dime. Not sure why you hate Bundy when all the fees and taxes he pays support your fascist lifestyle.

>>659379
No but see, this America where the more you steal the less wrong it is.

A poor black guy works the welfare system for a new TV, that's detestable.

But an already rich guy runs a multi-millionaire dollar a year business for 20 at the taxpayers expense, that's admirable. Even heroic.

Enron? Those guys were Gods.

It's all about scale.

>>659394
You're obviously one if Bundy's cronies, trying to fire up support for his sons' failing revolution by posting bullshit and obscuring the facts.

File: meal_team_6_operator.jpg (68KB, 638x638px) Image search: [Google]

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LMAO, there's actually a guy on Facebook complaining that he wants to go to Oregon and join the takeover but he can't afford the gas because disability check hasn't arrived yet.

http://deadstate.org/anti-government-ranchers-received-over-4-million-in-taxpayer-subsidies-in-2014/

Two Nevada ranchers who claim there is no drought in Nevada applied for and collected millions in drought relief subsidies.

Further proof that anti-government activists are thieves and hypocrites.

>>659394
No I'm a person who lives out West who actually goes outside and understands how valuable of an asset public land is. If every numbnut wanted to claim his little portion of that land what's stopping the Simplot family or West Fraser from fencing off the entirety of it and doing as they please?

>>659411
Don't bother arguing with him, he's just a doughy kid who lives in some suburb on his parents dime.

>>659411
you seem pleased that the government has not only fenced off half the state from the public and does whatever it please including destroying the environment and and the citizens way of life.

Government management is exemplifed in the hundreds of pristine river miles the EPA destroyed this fall. And those employees kept their jobs and got bonuses

>>659424
>the government has not only fenced off half the state from the public

wew lad, it's clear now you have absolutely no what you're talking about. Do you think BLM land is fenced off from the public?

>>659433
Yes he does, because he's never even been to BLM land.

>>659433
>not being aware of the dozens of other governmental bodies that own land

Are you aware you are a dim bulb?

>>659558
what are these other "governmental bodies" that are preventing the public from using 50% of their state's land?