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What do you guys think of ethanol free gas?
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What do you guys think of ethanol free gas?
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As a dude who drives a 70s car (fuck off eurofags) I will say it is a gift from god in the most expensive possible package.
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>Live in Europe
>All gas is ethanol free

Feels good man. Although diesel is getting progressively more bio (currently 7% around here, up from 4% last year)
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>>14339212
> Ethanol contains approx. 34% less energy per unit volume than gasoline, and therefore in theory, burning pure ethanol in a vehicle reduces miles per US gallon 34%, given the same fuel economy, compared to burning pure gasoline.

It's shit
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It gives you better mileage, but usually pure petrol costs a bit more.
Petrol is so cheap atm that it really makes no difference - filled up today with 98 for 0.965€/l
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>>14339349
But the ideal ratio is a lot lower, like 8:1 AFR or something, so you can dump a lot more into the cylinder for more POWAHHHHH!
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>>14339212
Cheap way to boost the octane rating.
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>>14339351
>tfw uk
>99 octane is still 102p/L (~1.30 euro)
>95 is still 99p/L (~1.25 euro)
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>>14339349
not if the price is adjusted to reflect that.

>>14339212
I just can't agree with the principle of using food to power vehicles when people can't afford food and other fuel sources are available.

>>14339327
just because they don't tell you how much ethanol is in the fuel doesn't mean it's ethanol free
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What's wrong with ethanol?

I'd run e85 if I could get it here.

More power, cleaner burning, theoretically better for the environment (this is important if you want fast cars to survive for our kids).

I know the mixes aren't great for cars not designed to take them, but I've never got the "hurr alkahol is hippy garbage fuel. Gimmme oil!" Crap.
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>>14339443
The food part is only accurate in certain parts of the world.

A lot of places utalize grass or grains we don't eat. And besides, if corn weren't used for ethanol then farmers wouldn't plant corn, they'd do something else, it's not like there is a corn shortage now.
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Ethanol fuel gets better octane ratings than pure petroleum distillates, and its combustion results in more exhaust by volume, which spools turbos faster.

The only downside is that ethanol is substantially worse in terms of energy density, but if the price of the gas is adjusted to reflect as much, then it makes no difference.

You don't need to be an envirofag to appreciate ethanol gasoline. Hell, it's probably a wash as to whether gas or ethanol is better for the environment. It's still good for performance, especially in turboed cars.
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>>14339383
> tfw you make lots of money and still complain
Calm down, fill, pay and drive, fagbro.
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my truck has an 11:1 compression ratio, it needs premium gasoline.
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>>14339476
Still wasting prime corp land.
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>>14339212
Ethanol free is nearly mandatory for marine engines as most Mercruisers dont use hardened valve seats. In a street car, its nice knowing my gasoline will go a tad further per mile. Only run 110 AvBlu in my old stuff anyway

>tfw you can run 3* more timing advance and 7* ignition advance just by using low lead.
>tfw 10.5:1 CR and no spark knock at 6800 RPB and 500+ CI.
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>>14339572
I suppose...

But unless the crops were going to be given out for free I don't understand how there's less food for hungry people.

Also the same could be said of booze really
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>>14339212
Only the Germans sell petrol with ethanol around here (and charge more for the proper stuff) because they're the most cucked nation in Europe.

Personally I'd never put that crap in my car or motorcycle.
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>>14339349
That can be offset by increasing compression ratios and/or running higher boost in forced induction engines as Ethanol has higher octane than plain gas.
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>>14339212
The fuck are they PUTTING ethanol in fuel to begin with?
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>>14340262
>why the fuck are they readily available combustible fuel in an internal combustion engine

gee, i dunno
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>>14340262
corn subsidiaries
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>retards continue to be stymied by the notion that hydrocarbon chains can be burned for energy, whether they're connected to an alcohol group or not

lmao, /o/ never passed high school chemistry, huh
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>>14339699
Who said anything about giving free food away. I said its wasteful to grow corn for fuel on ground meant for food. There is hundred of thousand acres of fallow land. That could be used. Also you might want to look what ethanol did to the corn prices.
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>>14340414
I, uh, think everyone knows that ethanol can burn here.
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>>14340421

Evidently not, considering people are inquiring as to why it's used as a gasoline additive/substitute.
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>>14340432
They're wondering what's the point of adding something that has less energy density then fuel to regular fuel, which takes a bit of explaining.
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Ethanol blended gasoline is/has/alwayswillbe a scam, some of the corn subsidies expired so the savings are negligible compared to non-blended. 4/5 stations have straight alcohol where I live thankfully.
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>>14340432
>All of /o/ is one person
take your generalizations and shitposts elsewhere.
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Ethanol in gasoline is the devil.
It absorbs water which can lead to rusting and corrosion of components in the fuel system

Sure modern vehicles can handle it, they were designed for it. Older vehicles were not. Shit ruins everything, especially if you leave it sitting in there for extended periods of time.
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>>14340562

I didn't imply that /o/ is a single, monolithic entity. I merely said there were several people vilifying ethanol without knowing anything about it. That much was true.

Taking what I say and turning it into a bizarre absolute doesn't make you correct, or appear intelligent. Nobody here is implying that ethanol fuels are some panacea that will free the West from the yoke of foreign petroleum, despite what you'd like your strawman to say.

Eat shit and die, fagwad.
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doesnt ethanol makes more power?
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>>14339212
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>>14341023
Yeah, though you have to tune the car for it. You need to put a lot more fuel in, because the ideal ratio is a lot richer.
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>>14341023
It has a higher octane rating meaning you can run more timing advance and compression or boost. It will not make more power in and of itself, and can make less in most E85 vehicles.
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>>14341023

It has marginally more octane, but its reputation for performance comes more from the fact that it spools turbos faster because it spits out more exhaust volume.

Still, unless you can get it for like 30% less than regular gasoline, filling your car up with E85 or other ethanol-heavy blends probably isn't worth the drop in mileage.

I guess it's nice for track days when you want to squeeze every last drop of performance out of your car, but there would still probably be better things to spend your time and money on, like tires and suspension and taking off weight and shit.
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>>14341023
It gets flat though if you don't drive for months
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>>14340262
government subsidies and the fact it is it the law

ethanol fuel is a fucking scam by the agricultural industry. these fags knew their ethanol could never compete with petrol so they made it the law that all motor vehicle fuel must contain 10%. they passed this law under the guise of "green energy" despite the fact that ethanol has poor returns on investment and destroys natural land to plant corn.
>>14340391
if ethanol didn't suck dick, it could compete on its own.
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>>14339327
bullshit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_the_Promotion_of_the_use_of_biofuels_and_other_renewable_fuels_for_transport

hope youre not from germany, where it is written on every single petrol nozzle.
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>>14341023
absolutely not. it makes less. e85 should be cheaper than regular gasoline.

ethanol is only useful as race fuel for turbo cars. it has no business in street cars.
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>>14339212
what do you think of my dick in your mothers ass?
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>>14341104
UK mate, we opted out ;)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ethanol_fuel_mixtures
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>>14341111
tf.. mkay.
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>>14339212
Ethanol certainly makes sense to use for fuel in certain countries, such as Brazil for example where they grow sugar cane.

Ethanol in the US is a scam. Growing corn to produced anhydrous ethanol produces more carbon dioxide than gasoline, releases more harmful pollutants such as formaldehyde and acetaldehyde and either repurposes farm land or destroys untouched wilderness for new crops. Return on investment is only 1.3:1. In small amounts (10% or less) it is useful for reducing particulate emissions in gasoline but even that can be obtained by different measures.

Anyhdrous ethanol is also extremely corrosive and destroys motor vehicle fuel systems. Even if a car is rated as safe for use of flex fuels there will still be far more damage using them than simple gasoline. Further ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline so you get worse mileage and in general pay more. Ethanol blends would have to be significantly cheaper than gasoline to even be worth it to the consumer from an economic standpoint.

In the US, unless you are driving a race car ethanol will cost you more and be objectively worse for the environment than just using gasoline.

Thank the government and the agricultural industry for screwing you and further increasing the rate of global warming as they claim.

I think ethanol should compete in a fair market in the US. If it is actually cheaper I'll buy it (times when oil prices are absurd) but that isn't likely to happen often.
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>>14341106
you're dumb as fuck
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>>14341250
*carbon monoxide emissions, not particulate
my bad.
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>>14341270
gasoline is more energy dense. unless you have a purpose built engine that ONLY runs on ethanol or your boost pressure (FI only cars) is limited by knock then ethanol is worse.

dipshit.
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>>14341250
Better watch out the farmers and green energy people might come and try to silence you.
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>>14341286
You literally don't know what you are talking about.
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>>14339212
ethanol ruins engines and lines,
period.

its gotten to that supposedly after 2016 manufacturers wont cover if you use that shit

dont quote on me though
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my car makes more power on ethanol than regular gas so i dont fucking care
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>>14341697
enlighten me mr. i haven't taken a chemistry or ice class.
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They don't have e85 in oil country
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Ethanol can fuck shit up in older cars.
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>>14341873
this

im sure as shit "they" made it to get old cars off the road.
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>>14341796
>>14341286
There is no real limit on how much fuel you can inject; air is the limiting factor in an ICE. Ethanol has less energy per gallon, so you just use more gallons. Put in 30% larger fuel injectors and you have 110 AKI racegas.
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>>14342475
You can't change your compression ratio.
In an N/A ethanol will offer zero advantage unless you are seriously messing with your timing. I doubt most cars even have the adjustment range to take full advantage of higher octane fuels.

In an FI air not always the limiting factor. If it is then ethanol isn't going to help. If your turbo is past efficiency you're just blowing hot air. If you can run higher boost but you are knocking then yes, ethanol will help.

For 99.9% of users ethanol has zero benefits, and is poor for the environmental reasons listed (in the US). If it was so great turbo cars would come with e85 maps. It obviously isn't worth the hassle to oems.

If you simply up your fuel consumption with larger injectors you get no gain whatsoever, you are just back where you started unless you have some seriously variable valve timing
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>>14342704
So why not switch to ethanol and have new cars run higher compression ratios? The only question is if the lower energy density is offset by potential power gains from higher compression ratios. I don't know the answer to that.
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>>14343066
Dunno if we can physically fuel that many cars with the current infrastructure. Jack Daniels would have to start producing 85% whiskey to keep America driving.
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>>14343066
The american ethanol infrastructure couldn't sustain it. As it is ethanol is hardly sustainable and only economically feasible because of laws and lobbies. ethanol is not competitive with gasoline in the slightest. we should really focus on electric/hybrid cars and natural gas/nuclear power.

I'm all for alternative fuels, but I want them on an equal playing ground.

disclaimer: this applies only to the USA and corn ethanol. ymmv in the rest of the world
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>>14343096
>>14343077

I agree with the problem regarding corn based ethanol. However, I believe that if cellulose-based ethanol became viable then it would be much more attractive as a fuel.

Looking at ethanol purely in the scope of it's use as a fuel, I think it is viable. The issues related to production and infrastructure are related, but separate.
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Only read half of thread, but in addition to the pros and cons already listed ethanol free gas stays viable for longer when stored in the fuel tank of a vehicle then ethanol gas.
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>>14343066
>So why not switch to ethanol and have new cars run higher compression ratios?
Why even fucking bother with eth, just make biodiesels and have them run off fermented shit, trash and yardwaste.
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>>14343140
It could work once we have the infrastructure to actually make that shit. A metric fuckton of crude and gas comes in from Canada, the Saudis, out of the ground in America, every single day. It'd take a long-ass time to equate that with ethanol.
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>>14343140
I agree I'm just not positive that the US is a great place to grow ethanol fuels. I mean look at Brazil and sugar cane. We will never meet such a return unless in a greenhouse. Let ethanol compete in a free market, where it will fail lol. If ethanol wasn't a joke we'd have power plants burning it. Its a hippy/liberal irl meme fuel.
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Daily reminder that butanol blends are what's going to take over when petroleum is no longer cost-effective to drill and produce. The blends will most likely be a mixture of butanol and some less-viscous alcohols. The mixture will be more efficient (energy/unit) than ethanol and only slightly less energy-dense than normal gasoline. Best thing about it: it should run in traditional modern gasoline engines.

I imagine industrial and chemical engineers are working with the chemists and biochemists to draw up methods for mass-production as we type.
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>>14340614
>tfw the only gas station that sells ethanol free is 5 minutes from my house
Still $3 a gallon for premium though
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>>14343142
Running higher compression causes an increase in nitrogen oxides. Which the epa thinks are the devil. Also it adds to smog.
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>>14343196

Tfw there is a nearby gas station that sells non ethanol gas

Only high octane race gas
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>>14343198
But NOx is a serious air pollutant. This is proven and quantifiable.

Its not like the political CO2 boogyman
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>>14343250
I know its bad. But the epa acts like its going to come to your house and rape your kids and dog.
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>>14342704
Doesn't swapping out heads for a different size change your compression ratio?
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>>14343274
But the EPA is good anon.
Less the political CO2 bullshit. Passed at the legislative level btw. I'm as right wing as a guy gets but the EPA are good guys. Fuck smog, fuck real pollutants.
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>>14343293
Yeah, but he means that going from gas to alcohol fuel wont do any good by itself.
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>not mixing 10-20% of toluene into your fuel for racing fuel

It's like you WANT to lose races, you bunch of cucks.
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>>14343299
The epa has good intentions. But tends to over do it. Whats the point of banning small diesel engines. and not giving a shit about coal and oil power plants.
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>>14343404
Meant to say banning th import of small diesel engines
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>>14343367
>not running 86% toluene that you need to preheat to use
Have you even BEEN to an F1 race?
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>>14342704
>You can't change your compression ratio
noticed how some modern engines are running very high static compression ratios? they do it by using vvt to vary dynamic compression.
saying that ethanol is shit because cars aren't set up for it is a pretty weak argument.

>>14343066
to run all the cars in the usa on e85 would require us turning 70% of the planet's arable land to corn production for fuel.
it's just not gonna happen
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>>14343096
>>14343146
>>14343140
Protip: methanol is chemically synthesized from natural gas and costs around $2 per gasoline gallon equivalent.

>>14342704
Alcohol actually does create more power without substantial changes to the engine design. It has more favorable burn characteristics and absorbs more heat from the intake charge as it flashes to a gas, meaning more air makes it into the engine.

And yes, air is always the limiting factor, even for FI. If you ever exceed your ability to add more fuel, your engine is running lean and eating head gaskets.
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>>14339212
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