Is 300~ horsepower 'fast' by todays standards? Or is 300hp the new 200hp?
Like are any of the JDM 90's hero cars like JZA80's or R34s "fast" by any means? I always considered 300~hp to be the cutoff point between a slow shitbox and a proper car, but I heard the new Toyota Camrys and shit had like 300, and the new Camaros have had 350+ horsepower V6s and the V8 camaros and mustangs have 400+ and the new corvette has like 500
I forget that the 90's were 20 years ago and a lot of the rules I know about what's feasible and realistic don't matter any more.
just looked it up and the new Z28 camaro has 505 horsepower, and the new Zl1 has almost 600
crazy shit I forget that we walk around with computers in our pockets everyday like it's nothing.
>V6 Mustang makes 150hp
>Mustang GT makes 215hp
>Mustang Cobra makes 305hp
>4cyl Ford Mustang makes 310hp
>Mustang GT Makes 435hp
>Mustang GT350 makes 525hp
Yes, times have changed.
I always thought the new camaros and mustangs and challengers were big fat ugly cars, when I was in high school. I look at them now and they're a lot smaller than they look in pictures and I'm only 5'10
like the C4 in the OP is a fucking tiny ass car, it's 4 feet tall and like sitting in an F1 car.
>300hp in a camaro is slow
its really fucking not though. 0-60 in 5 sec stock quarter of 13 sec
very respectable for an old LS1 camaro.
my ls1 t/a feels pretty fast. last night i hit like 120mph in 3rd. and my car is a stock auto
I know that. It's just that traditionally It was easy as taking a shit to make 350hp out of a 350. and shit just got exponentially more expensive as you go past 400 until you had something you could barely drive down the street, and 500-600hp was drag car and lamborghini and ferrari territory.
I was thinking about LS swapping my C3 because the old motor is going to shit and LS has always been the "end all be all" but starting out at around 300~hp is like spending a bunch of money just to start at the beginning again.
LS is also somewhat expensive to build. rotating assy is $3k or so
LS1 kind of behaves like a mild 350 from the factory. but much smoother idle and reliability from modern fuel injection
my LS1 seems to have no problems being at sustained 5000-6000 rpm
Wasn't the DOHC built by lotus? wondered how powerful the C5 days could've been if GM let Lotus make special edition vettes.
>Modern camaro, not 90s Camaro.
why? a 90's camaro IS a "modern" camaro. it's just not the newest one. this isn't your iphone
so do my pickup trucks (4.3 s10 and 4.0l jeep 'manche)
and i'm sure a ranger 4.0l does too (even faster than both of mine) which is what that engine is from
>so do my pickup trucks (4.3 s10 and 4.0l jeep 'manche)
Lol, no they don't.
Both are 16s cars at best. My friend had a SCSB 4.3L 5spd S10, they're kinda quick off the line but aren't fast.
Most Minivans and crossovers today are close to 300hp. 300hp is probably nothing to brag about unless your car is light as hell.
300hp in a 2500lb car is fast.
300hp in a 4000lb pigfat sedan is far from fast.
the DOHC LT5 was also PEAKY as fuck due to the Vtec type system it had.
it made very low amount of torque below 3K rpm that made it feel Doggy.
not to mention it was like 10X more expensive to assemble than an LS1
So why wasn't there any real competition from the Viper this time around? The old GTS-R did okay in Europe. The one time I saw a Viper in an FIA event, it didn't even last 5% of the race
>It's sad that it takes the intervention of a foreign manufacturer to make an american car not suck
What are you even talking about? a lot of manufacturers had help from other companies when designing cars and they wouldn't have existed if it weren't so. its almost impossible to make a car without SOME foreign intervention.
The new Supra is being built with help from BMW
A lot of Italian cars had help from the Germans
(Pagani Lamborghini come to mind)
Koenigsegg used a Ford modular engine in their first car.
The GT-R R35 had its transmission designed by a third party company called Warnerborg which is headquartered in the US
So many TVR's Land-rovers and MGs had engines built by Buick which Rover licensed.
all of these cars would've sucked and been unreliable otherwise.
300hp at the wheels or flywheel?
i consider anything above 200hp at the wheels to be quick and anything over 300hp to be 'fast'
Sure a modern v6 might get to 100/60 in 5 seconds BUT try turning a corner in one
>A V6 Mustang pulls .96G and outlaps a STi, stop being stupid
roflmao, sure thing
by the way, lateral G has nothing at all to do with anything
inb4 damage control goal post moving
>by the way, lateral G has nothing at all to do with anything
It's a display of mechanical grip stupid.
ehh until you want a high speed car. then you NEED the power since wind resistance squares and gets reatrded difficult to push through. HP/weight is fun for a track, but if you want to have fun running at high speeds you need HP and the weight matters a lot less. I mean the veyron weighed 4k lbs.
And if you want to not be a complete faggot, SUSPENSION/Traction design trumps weight all day. it's why the GTR can handle so god damn well and weigh what it does.
Not him but I've owned a lot of Z turbos. You can run 15 psi on pump, with a nistune, boost controller, full exhaust and intake and hit 400whp. My buddy did e85, full exhaust, intake, intercoolers, nustune, injectors. The engine and turbos 100% stock and it did 500whp. I think the record is like 540whp or something on stock engine and turbos. Just breather and fuel mods. That engine was a beast, just had some oil problems that can be fixed.
>how much grip a car can hold through a steady state corner has nothing to do with it's ability to turn
Do you listen to the shit that spews out of your mouth?
Next thing you'll say is
>at least it gets gud emm pee gees
>how much lateral force a car generates going around a massive flat circle with a radius of 100 yards has nothing to do with its ability to turn
im glad you agree
the hellcat charger gets like what, .94g around a skid pad? its a 2000kg boat that literally cant turn for shit. goes to show skidpad ratings mean nothing
300 hp is more than enough in a relatively light rwd car.
Interesting I ran 14psi with a JWT ecu, seemed pretty laggy compared to other turbo cars ive driven. Only other mods were intake,catback exhaust, and injectors and a few deletes. Never had it on a dyno or anything, really should of thinking back I live like 30 mins from RDZ which ive been told is one of the best Nissan performance shops in the country
I did 310whp at 10.5psi with intake exhaust and lightweight flywheel on 91 octane sadly I was never able to redyno at 14. I am assuming 350ish based on other Z dynos I have seen with same boost and mods.
JWT sucks dick. well the ecu. Buy a nistune and get it tuned properly. the JWT is just a nistune that is pretuned for safety based on mods. It's a scam. Also I've never really heard of RDZ. the best z people are concept z, Z1, Houston Z, Specialty. Those guys are top of the top for Z knowledge.
Yeah I am choosing between Nistune and Haltech but right now I am no where close to that seeing as how I have had the engine out forever.
I use NM Imports because they are close and specialize in Zs, it also does not hurt they were highly recommend by CZP
Haltech is only necessary for over about 900whp. The nistune will literally do everything you need until then.
Yeah if Coz over a CZP recommends someone you can trust them. I use kyle at IPP for a lot of parts since he's local. he's been around forever. And Dane at Houston Z is one of the top 5 Z tuners out there.
But yeah, you gotta use whose close.
>i consider anything above 200hp at the wheels to be quick and anything over 300hp to be 'fast'
That was what I used to think but clearly times have changed.
The new Camaros v8s have around almost 450 hp, so I'd say 450hp is the new 300hp. I mean, the v6s have 325ish which is LS1 territory alone. (I am very aware that new camaros are much heavier but that's aside the point)
That's what I was thinking. I'm just trying to decide on new bench marks because a teenage girl in her new v6 Camaro/Mustang is just as fast/faster than the old LS1 generation cars.
>That was what I used to think but clearly times have changed.
cars are so fucking heavy now that anything under 1500kg is considered 'light' and 'performance' cars are like 1600-1800 its fucking retarded
Well it will be a pretty damn high hp build. Local guy had E85 with GT2871Rs with 9.1:1 at 705whp, I planned on doing a 9.5:1 with GT2871Rs I had but I had to sell them sadly. Now I am planning a 10 or 10.5:1 high boost GTX turbo build somewhere 800whp give or take. Who knows no may get to 600whp and say its enough.
Yeah same with this shop its a 10.5:1 high boost nitrous Z in the works they are hoping for over 1000whp. What I need to find is someone who can build a VG around here. They use Napa to build all their VGs but I'm just not sure about Napa doing it.
Power to weight + gearing + being able to put that power to the ground = speed
Peak factory claimed bhp means fuck all when your car weights damn near 4000 lbs and the chassis is a wet noodle.
ewwww napa....Bad call. They need to find a proper machine shop. Kyle sells blocks at IPP. I HIGHLY recommend those. I used to order them before I found a local machine shop to do our customers. Were doing 1000whp with no nitrous at all. Well that's the plan. We've been close before and that was WAY before the GTX came out. We have a few 700whp builds going on. It's a fun year!
What are you idiots talking about, cars are still rated at the engine.
also I thought they started using NET horsepower in the 70's I was always told that like it was common knowledge.
or did they mean they stopped measuring it as an engine alone and started measuring it with it in the car or what???
They recently started using a local guy but he won't touch an engine for a regular person you have to be a shop and even then expect 2-3 months. He won't even return my voicemail, I spoke to one local shop who seems decent and has good reviews...just not with VGs he has.never built a VG.
Yeah they have a non nitrous Z pushing 900whp now the customer on the 10.5:1 however wanted it.
>also I thought they started using NET horsepower in the 70's I was always told that like it was common knowledge.
>or did they mean they stopped measuring it as an engine alone and started measuring it with it in the car or what???
NET hp was the engine with no accessories, even the newest SAE standards are still on an engine stand with accessories and catalysts in place.
>Where have you been?
irl with my friends and acquaintances.
So your friends just never talk about cars?
Protip: when some casual says "can you believe the new ecoboost mustang has 310hp, just a few years ago the V8s were making 300hp" they're not referring to whp.
I thought GROSS was the engine with no accessories or transmission.
So net is accessories and transmission? Or just accessories and the flywheel?
The new V8 manual Camaro makes 10hp more than the automatic, my 82 Corvette is rated 200hp and was criticized with being offered in only a "torque sapping automatic" so I don't know what the FUCK you're talking about dude I thought they've been measuring at the wheels sense at least then...
Gross was no accessories and included other tricks like headers and no air cleaner assemblies and advanced ignition timing.
>So net is accessories and transmission? Or just accessories and the flywheel?
Just the flywheel.
>my 82 Corvette is rated 200hp and was criticized with being offered in only a "torque sapping automatic" so I don't know what the FUCK you're talking about dude I thought they've been measuring at the wheels sense at least then...
Nah, when manufacturers spout hp numbers it's always at the flywheel/engine.
I had a modded 5.0LX and it put down 220whp and 280wtq, it was rated at 225hp and 300tq at the flywheel stock.
>can you believe the new ecoboost mustang has 310hp, just a few years ago the V8s were making 300hp
lmao, sounds like you have around with 14 year olds
>my friends don't talk about cars and their hp levels their rated at
>they only discuss cars that they've seen dyno sheets for
Some gearheads, or you're just full of shit/don't know what you're talking about.
It's shit I hear around here, so yeah it probably was a 14 year old. But that's actually more boomer-tier.
I don't know about that guy, but generally when someone just says "horsepower," they mean at the crank. Factories and media outlets report it this way, so it's still the standard for most people. If someone means whp, they'll say "wheel horsepower" or "at the wheels" because it sounds more impressive. The main exception is if someone's talking about the results from a dyno test.
Yeah, watch the Top gear with the '08 GT500. Hammond is sorely disappointed when they put his '68 on the rollers. Also, it shows that even though the GT500 is rated at 500hp it only puts down 440ish whp IIRC.
Thank god, someone else with common sense.
Behan one of the Lotus engineers who now works at Lingenfelter recently built a gen 3 LT5 using the left over prototype parts and diagrams they were working on back in the 90s. The goal back then was 475bhp. They were able to hit 528hp on the engine dyno. For comparison the gen 2 engine made 440hp on the engine dyno. Only two of the gen 3 higher lift cams survived so they were forced to use gen 1 cams. They think there is another 30hp with the different cams.
I put a cammed lq9 and t56 in my C3. It was a lot of money, time, and frustration dealing with the wiring. Totally worth it, but it would have been cheaper and easier just to buy a 383 crate motor.
really? I read these and they said you can do it for $1500 (no tranny)
the first one says they sell premade harnesses (not cheap) so you don't have to bother
>remember reading magazines in elementary school with my bro
>oh man that Impreza has 300hp!
thread reminded me of that time
whether it was or not 300hp seemed like a big deal to the magazine and us at the time all the big bad V8s and top turbo imports seemed to have it
200hp was like a decently quick car
>14 years later
>wow that Impreza still only has 300hp
top kek Subaru
yeah Id say 300 is the new 200
My roomate dropped a B18 into a CRX that puts down like 210 hp.
Feels like a rocketship.
The horses are just getting fatter now, OP.
There was a K24 swapped CRX, gutted, lightweight fuel cell, and caged on Craigslist, Professionally done track car.
I can only imagine how fun and insane that shit would have been.
A bmw x1 turbo diesel with 220hp or so at the crank feels fast enough for a daily driver city car.
It depends on the application.
If you live somewhere rural with big wide open stretches of road and do a lot of highway driving, 200hp isn't shit. But for short bursts of acceleration in a city where it always rains, its fun.
Then again, when it comes to comparisons, 300-400 is the average now for a sports car. You put a turbo on a naturaly aspirated v8 pushing 350 stock and you can get to 500 with one step. There are a lot more possibilities now than 20 years ago I guess.
I remember that top gear episode when Jeremy tested a 1000hp r33 tuned by jun or some other jap tuner, and claimed they spent £150k on the engine to get it to that figure.
You could probably take a modern v6 or v8, and get to 1000hp with only a couple thousand or so, considering you do some work yourself like the manifolds and shit.
What the fuck is even the point of 300 hp in appliance sedans? Is it another one of those things where Americans vastly overestimate the power required for a task, in this case accelerating to 70 mph on highway ramps, like when they defend buying one ton pickups to occasionally tow their ATV?
the average american adds 300lbs to the gross weight of a vehicle
>all these retards saying stupid shit like "200 HP in a 2500lbs car is fast tho" "cars are just getting heavier hurr"
Not what I was talking about. Any idiot knows a S or a civic with a 300hp is fast, no fucking shit retards. All the classic "fast" cars like LS1s, Corvettes, Terminators, Supras, GTRs etc not one of them weighed less than 3000lbs. The only lightweight cars I can even think of with decent hp are WRXs and foxbodies.
I don't give a shit if your faggot sub-3000lbs shitbox is "fast with a k20/ls1 swap DUDE HOONIGAN DUDE MONSTER ENERGY DUDE SNAPBACKS LMAO"
Shit, I feel like most new cars come with more horsepower than they did around the 1990s/early 2000s.
It's really nice having power in a daily driver. Why do you hate horsepower? Are you some kind of communist?
My rental V6 Impala has 305 horsepower. What a time to be alive.
The last 5 years or so has seen an amazing explosion of horsepower. We are living in a golden age.
That said, we're really past the point that it's usable on the street. My Mk VII Golf TDI can cruise comfortably at 90mph, and gets there quick enough. My 320hp 928 S4 can roast the tires and sprint with anything built before 2008 or so. It's as fast as I need.
That said, the current HP mark for most manufacturers is 500. 392 Mopars are just under, Camaros are there, Mustangs are just short at 430-something I think. MB has been at 500 for years with the SLs and of course the Viper 500hp mark was the standard for a long time. I'd say 400 is the new 300... 300 isn't the new 200... maybe the new 270.
Cars are also pigfat now. Torque numbers get smaller as tinier engines make more power.
300 is still decent when you're getting 22+ mpg, but I can make that kind of power for $700
>foxbody was king of the streets back in the '80s and into the '90s
>a fully built 302 can hardly hold any more power without stressing the factory block than a bolt on DOHC 5.0
Yeah, we've come quite a long ways huh.
Funny. >>14179862 was me. And I used to own a jellybean Cobra.
There were cars much faster than the Cobra in the '90s, unless now you want to back peddle to "attainable sports cars".
>dat fucking gas mileage
Every time I'm driving my 2.5i Slowbaru and I think to myself that maybe I should get an STi I'm immediately reminded that I may as well be driving a big block Camaro if I'm only going to get 16 mpg.
Ford really dropped the ball with the 4.6 OHC engines by sticking with 2 valves per cylinder. If the Japs can do 4 valves per cylinder with SOHC than there's no reason Ford couldn't have. Just imagine how great that whole engine series could have been with an actually efficient combustion chamber design.