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You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music

Thread replies: 117
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REMINDER: If you think there is a difference between 'art music' and 'non-art music', you are a part of the cancer killing this board.
>>
>>61932698
that dichotomy doesn't exist anyway
pretty sure it's art, popular, traditional
furthermore if you think there's some inherent snarkiness or w/e in these terms then you yourself are the cancer
>>
>>61932698
REMINDER: If you are so buttblasted by your favourite pop artist not being on the same level as art music then you are part of the cancer killing this board.
>>
>>61932719
traditional is folk.

Art
Folk
Pop
>>
fuck i got baited
>>
>>61932765
ye
>>
There is.

Doesn't stop me from enjoying either or them though.
>>
The Distinction is actually just between Art Music and Folk Music. Pop is considered a sub-genre of folk.
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>>61932698
There objectively is.
>>
Anyone have the music/musique/muzak picture? Shit was hilarious.
>>
What counts as art music?
>>
Art music is an umbrella term that refers to musical traditions, implying advanced structural and theoretical considerations[7] and a written musical tradition.[8]

The notion of art music is a frequent and well-defined musicological distinction, e.g., referred to by musicologist Philip Tagg as one of an "axiomatic triangle consisting of 'folk', 'art' and 'popular' musics."[9]

He explains that each of these three is distinguishable from the others according to certain criteria.[9]

The main tradition in the Western world is usually called classical music. In this regard, it is frequently used as a contrasting term to popular music and traditional or folk music.[8][10][11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_music
>>
I can go from mozart to taylor swift in just a matter of minutes
>>
this boards so dead actually doesnt matter what anyone posts anymore
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>>61932851
ask them to send a noose instead
>>
The only issue with this system of distinctions is the inherent elitism and the fact that the name implies 99% of music can't be considered art. It would be better if they changed the name.
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>>61932870
can you recommend me a mouse
>>
>>61932876
Its a bit like IDM, never intentional but /mu/ is so sensitive.
>>
>>61932876
I don't think calling something art music is intended to imply music that is not art music ins't art. However I will agree that it is somewhat or a misnomer. Maybe it should just be called boring music instead.
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>>61932876
yeah sorry your favourite /mu/core garbage isn't considered art

listen to some real music some time kiddo
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>>61932881
Maybeline.
>>
>>61932900
no friend thats mousse
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>>61932894
>Maybe it should just be called boring music instead.
>>
>>61932698
Those names just refer to the different methods in which that type of music is disseminated throughout a culture (folk music is mostly orally, by tradition, art music is based in canon and academia, and popular music varies but it's usually spread through a populace by an individual organization/person)
>>
>>61932876
>inherent elitism
no
stop
you don't know what inherent means

>>61932908
>>61932881
literally dude just steal some stock logitech or even a dell mouse from a computer lab
i don't get the point of expensive ass mice unless you play gaymz
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>>61932894
It's not that it was intended too, it's just that /mu/ memers who think they're superior flaunt it that way

>>61932897
>making assumptions
seriously people like you are the reason why this system is mostly disliked. You literally proved my point with your post
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>>61932751
this so much
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>>61932847
Mozart is pop
>>
>>61932931
>don't know what inherent means
What I'm saying is that this system of classification, at least to me, incites a feeling that "art music" is immediately better than the others. It's not advertent, but the name is just elitist by the terms nature. If that's not what inherent means, than I guess I'm misunderstood. But, you're just arguing semantics.
>>
>>61933015
>feeling
>at least to me

i'm not arguing semantics, you're just stupid and appealing to emotion
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>>61933064
Yes you were arguing semantics, and you still are because "feeling" in this context doesn't refer to any emotion. You still haven't made an actual rebuttal.
>but you're stupid lol
do you actually have a counter argument?
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>>61932751
>Art music is inherently better
lol ok
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>>61933293
Art music is more complex, requires more technical skill and knowledge to make and is held at a higher degree by scholars. But whether or not it's better is a subjective opinion. People on /mu/ will say it's objective but it isn't
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>>61933345
>more complex
Opinion
>requires more technical skill and knowledge to make
Opinion
>held at a higher degree by scholars
Opinions of other people.

good argument
>>
everything can be considered art but not everything deserves to be
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>>61933394
you know you're dealing with an idiot when they continually point out that your arguments about art are subjective

we know, it's a basis most people are consciously operating on without you needing to point it out, and doing so does not constitute for a counter-argument

the point of debate is to exchange viewpoints, not to point out that viewpoints are viewpoints

moron
>>
>>61933394
I'm not trying to argue against you, but a symphony is more complex than most popular music. That's a fact. I suppose the scholarly merit of art music is a subjective appeal to authority, but what I'm trying to say is that art music is not better, because "better" is opinion. I'm not placing any more merit in art music than I am in popular music. I agree with you.
>>
... but there is. Trashy pop music made to make money is different than music made to be art.
I mean I hope you really don't think Taylor Swift should be considered in the same category as Swans.

Same way Bayformers is a commercial product while Apocalypse Now is art.

Same way Call of Duty is a commercial product while Osamu Sato's works are art.

it's simple truth, there is a difference.
>>
>>61933509
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music
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>>61933509
Taylor Swift and Swans are both pop music.
>>
>>61933509
"Popular music" is a very broad distinction
>>
>art music
classical

>folk
regional and orally passed down songs

>popular music
everything else
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>>61933552
Are you implying any form of any other kind of music can't be considered art?
>>
>>61933579
>if you don't like something, shitpost

This is the 4chan equivalent to downvoting.

>>61933580
Popular music is still art, its just not art music.
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>>61933601
>Popular music is still art, its just not art music.
Then where is the distinction? Just because something is classical music it becomes 'art music'?
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>>61933552
>being this retarded
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>>61933609
Pop music is primarily made to entertain,
not to prove thought.
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>>61933552
but given that all music can now be listened to digitally, isn't all music popular music now?
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>>61933621
The Velvet Underground & Nico?
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>>61933613
>>61933609
>>61933635
see
>>61932839
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>>61933345
>Satie is more complex than Zappa
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>>61933638
>>61933680
>Anime
Opinion disregarded
>>
>>61933701
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_the_messenger
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>>61933552
So by your definition... Noise music is pop music?
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>>61933638
>>61933680
I knew this would show up eventually. These graphics are so biased, they have no worth aside from memes
>vulgar, unrefined, meant to be felt with the body, not the mind
>multiple pictures of kanye
>anime
These don't apply to everything under the large umbrella that is popular music.
>>
>>61933680
>shakespeare not the definition of plebeian literature
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>>61933345
Someone can have all the technical skill in the world but it doesn't mean shit if they can't make good music. For example, 99% of math rock.
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>>61933739
Yes, but just because something is popular music doesn't mean it's bad. Also this definition of popular music is different than top 40 radio pop

>>61933690
Well, of course there are exceptions, but they don't make the rule
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>>61933638
plato was a dumb shit
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>>61932876
Popular music is a commodity and folk music is a social tool. Neither are art.
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>>61933777
I'm not saying popular music = bad music but the idea of Merzbow and Hanatarash being held as 'popular music' is just mind boggling.
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>>61933765
I never said that technical skill means you can automatically make good music, but it takes a lot of technical skill to make good music, especially art music. also, this isn't to say that popular music can't be complex. It absolutely can be and often is
>>
Left:
Spend years learning theory and practicing your craft. Years of hard thought and processes of emotional and spiritual development culminate in a master piece. This is art.

Right:
lmao starting a band with drunk high school bros
just download fruityloops and click away
sick dank beats yo
This is pop.
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>>61932765
Art, traditional, popular is a less "I listen to real country like Neil Young" way of putting it.
>>
Can someone recommend some non-art music? Genuinely interested in this.
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>>61933814
>>
Friendly reminder that Art, Folk, and Pop music are distinctions made on elements not directly related to the music.
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>>61933814
What about pop that somebody tried hard to make?
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>>61933847
Kendrick Lamar - To Pimp a Butterfly
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>>61933888
Thanks, will check it out.
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>>61933793
>>61933814
>all popular music is the same and none of it is done with an artistic vision.
Of course some popular music can be considered art, not all of it, but it certainly isn't a "commodity".

>>61933847
You've never listened to non-art music?
Don't listen to >>61933888 if you really haven't, it's bait.
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>>61933847
Any Bach cantata, they were just there to keep people entertained in church
Any Haydn symphony, he wrote 100 to entertain a bored prince
Any Vivaldi violin concerto, he wrote 300 of them for orphans at a girl's school to play
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>>61933952
This is bait right
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>>61933999
This whole thread is a large part bait
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>>61934055
>
Things pop drones say
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>>61932698
Good. As if I give a shit about this board.
>>
>>61933939
That vision is ultimately stripped away by the machinations of the entertainment industry and adherence to the styles of popular genres.

TPAB also had no artistic vision; the only thing it had going for it is clever marketing.
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>>61934111
You're right about tpab, it was made for money and to push a message, and I strongly believe that ""art"" that pushes a message is not art.
But, there is just so much popular music, a lot of it being self produced, and released independently. The best example I can think of is Phil Elverum. He makes music under his own label, and says that he only makes music to explore and flesh out his own psyche, and explore genres and styles that he never has before, not for money or good reception.
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>>61932839
>wikipedia
AHAHAHAHAHA
>>
>>61932839

>it's true because Wikipedia says so!!
>>
Genres are just names that have culturally subjective meanings to us.

So I think all music is art, but I still defend the existence of "art rock" and "art pop" etc...
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>>61934253
>>61934255
It's not something that's true or false, it's not a fact, it's just an alternative method for classifying music.
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>>61934253
>>61934255
>le wikipedia is bad xd
>>>/r/eddit
>>
In German culture music is often classified as either
"E-Musik" (serious music)
and
"U-Musik" (entertaining music)
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>>61934359

>le reddit is bad xd

>>>/v/
>>>/tv/
>>>/pol/
>>
>>61934319
I don't think all music is art. Some music, like top 40 stuff, for example, is made for reasons other than artistry like finance, political agendas, or obligations to record labels. I don't think you can make art without and artistic intent.
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>>61934386
>vouching for reddit
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>>61934391
In top40 music the lyrics are conveying a (usually simple) message.

It's "shallow" art but it's still art.
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I think we can all agree those who enjoy post-african repetitions shouldn't be considered people.
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>>61934450
Anybody not white isn't people anyway.
>>
>>61934359
>everything on internet must be true!
Fuck off.
>>
>>61934463
>well-sourced, peer reviewed information with citations can't possibly be true!
Fuck off.
>>
>>61933680
>camus on plebeian and bergman on patrician, when The Seventh Seal was inspired on absurdism and existencialism
>hamlet patrician
>post-modern bullshit as patrician
K E K
E E E
K E K
>>
>>61934229
>I strongly believe that ""art"" that pushes a message is not art.
There's plenty of great works that were in some way political, but I do think that focusing on a contemporary issue does reduce a piece's lasting power.

Any piece of popular music trying to take a political stance ultimately cheapens it and renders it sterile. Just think of all those awful protest songs from the 60s or hardcore punk.
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>>61934504
Hardcore punk is often not about any specific event or message.

Especially My War by Black Flag.
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>>61934419
I agree with you, but I wasn't saying that all top 40 isn't art. I'm just saying that some music just isn't made to be art. It has purposes besides art.
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>>61934532
Ayy lmao
>>
>>61932698
If you're too thick to realize that there is - if not a clean cut difference - certainly a spectrum between the two, then you're the cancer.
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>>61934532
What does this picture have to do with music?
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>>61934473
The article is clearly biased towards classical music.
See the talk page, they are arguing that only classical music is art because 'it's more intellectual and erudite'.

The term 'art music' as classical music is just plain retarded, claiming that your music isn't art unless you are a professional composer with music theory classes is stupid when in other disciplines there are a lot of 'artistic' content creators without a huge erudite background (Kafka for example).

Also
>well-sourced
>Susan McClary,Feminine Endings: Music, Gender, and Sexuality, second edition, (Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1991-2002): xv-xv
>>
>>61934532
ayy lmao
>>
>>61934570
nothing he's shitposting
>>
>>61934609

Do you think it would be fair with the likes of Chopin and Mozart to be grouped with people who strum 4 chords for 4 minutes while blabbing about something?
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>>61934646
Yeah, just as we group the greeks that wrote huge stories with short story writers like Kafka or Borges.

>Chopin
K E K
>>
>>61934646
How long will it take you to realize that popular music includes a lot more than butt folk. You're comparing the best of one class to the worst of the other.
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>>61932698 (OP)
>The notion of art music is a frequent and well-defined musicological distinction, e.g., referred to by musicologist Philip Tagg as one of an "axiomatic triangle consisting of 'folk', 'art' and 'popular' musics."[9] He explains that each of these three is distinguishable from the others according to certain criteria.[9]
Are you going to argue against professional musicologists, or are you going to start acting like a rational adult and respect the opinions, viewpoints and assertions of more knowledgeable people?

I would argue the liberal "all music is of equal worth" philosophy is what killed elitist /mu/, e.g. using "subjective" as an excuse for ignorance and lack of critical reflection instead of an aesthetic (and philosophical) term.

>>61934609
>claiming that [popular and folk] music isn't art
[citation needed]

It's just a term, and it is acknowledged by musicologists. Stop being edgy, and follow the laws of linguistic description.
>>
>>61934942
>I would argue the liberal "all music is of equal worth" philosophy is what killed elitist /mu/, e.g. using "subjective" as an excuse for ignorance and lack of critical reflection instead of an aesthetic (and philosophical) term
It had to do more with the adoption of poptimism as a political stance.
>>
>>61934942
>Subjectivity as an excuse rather than an aesthetic term
I think this is a really good explanation as to why both the concepts of objectivity and subjectivity have become memes on/mu/ and lost all meaning
>>
>>61932698
>all music is art

I'm actually fine with this being considered art
https://youtu.be/55M1J8Bm4ss
>>
>>61933818
No True Scottsman?
>>
>>61935154
>poptimism
I have not read up on this term, but it sounds sort of useless, because most "(classic) rock music" is, in fact, pop music.

The "born in le right generashun" crowd is absolutely horrifying, though, if that's what you mean. I have yet to hear a EDM song that's as harmonically extensive and inventive as, say, a Beatles song.

>>61935252
Yes, /mu/mblr doesn't understand the difference between empirical quality and objective quality.
>>
>>61932698
>non-art music

>music
>that is not hard

WUT my friend
>>
>>61936221
wut
>>
art music and non-art music isnt a meme yet OP. sorry try back in 3 months.
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