Conducting is really difficult. What you're doing is moving through space and dictating what you want your ensemble to do. Making big motions means you want big sound, small motions for small sound. Easy right? Try without singing to show the ensemble of 40 some odd musicians how the phrase they're about to play should sound, develop, and conclude. Conductors have a great ability to visually cue what and how he wants his interpretation of the music to come through. The players play the horns, the conductor plays the orchestra. I suck at explaining things though so I'm sure someone else could do that. I just know how to wave my wand around and get the sound I want.
He pretty much decides how it will be played, so yes a conductor has a huge impact on how it sounds. If you heard an orchestra play a piece twice with 2 very different conductors, you wouldn't think it was the same orchestra and session
>>61899897 I did play in an orchestra once for a school musical once. The fat conductor wobbled out onto the stage while everybody clapped and clapped, while we watched as he danced like a retard for 45 mins while we actually made the musical what it was.
They're literally useless. Just because they dress nicely and seem like very talented man, they're just as retarded as any other guy who slaps his name to some musical work after he cooperated with the actual artist for a few minutes.
Harass the fuck out of us players over shit that doesn't matter or things they pretend to hear, but do not actually hear. >I'm singing with some 40+ piece orchestra behind me >"hurr durr second seat oboe, you're going flat in bar 120 no yeah, you TOTALLY heard that, you faggot now I and the rest of the orchestra have to waste time and go through the piece up to that point again because you want to inflate your own fucking ego like, you can pretend to be a *little* better than you are or try to solidify your actual purpose here, whatever; just don't be this kind of faggot liar
and then later it'll be like >scene with 5 singers on stage, same orchestra >he's staring dead-on at the basses in the string section and clearly not paying attention or listening to anything else because the basses are having legitimate difficulty with some part >"RAHRAH! John (other singer)! You came in a quarter measure late! Yeaaahhh ok, if you can tell us what measure we're in, someone will believe you (oh wait, you can't) until then, eat shit and die you pretentious faggot conductors
Musicians can perform perfectly well without you, it's just cultural conditioning like the Japanese going to Shinto shrines - they don't legitimately or seriously believe in Shinto traditions, but it's a "my family and friends do it, I might as well" sort of thing. 99% of conductors are fucking musical cancer.
keep beating yourself off conductor-in-training, no serious musician will ever care about you; you'll just be stuck in your little circle of conductors who are oh-so wonderful and can't help but talk about how great "their" performances are to anyone and everyone they talk to
Helps in rehearsal, control how the piece sounds. For larger works they're pretty important. Compare these for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ6xdKVKncE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E0_Fvp7AFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lqjl7bkDBE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jP3o22HGw
>>61901339 >>61902501 been an oboist for 7 years, can confirm that oboe is the cuntiest instrument to tune. the reed warps every time you play on it, so you have to figure out a new set of embouchure tweaks for every note, every day.
>>61902453 No, it's not. The majority of what is posted in that thread is Freshman college student music theory. You're supposed to know how to play the piano to some degree as well as a music student - that's where you get the hand distinction practice. It takes about a week to learn how to do what he describes in the first paragraph, and another week for the second paragraph. Anyone who has actually gone to school for classical music can do it, completely fucking regardless of their instrument. I'm a vocalist and this was taught in *high school* music theory for me.
>Orchestral players walk out on the dot when 7pm rolls around (or 5pm or whenever the call ends) They wont stick around "after work" to perfect a piece, they're professionals, they turn up when asked to, play, and go home. Absolute, complete fucking lie. Almost never happens in real work with conductors in rehearsals. You will always be there after the call ends. The orchestra is actually more likely to stay even longer, until after the vocalists leave. If the poster was a professional musician, they would know this.
>The conductor also has to know the specific pieces inside out. I once heard a conductor stop a rehearsal, yell out "3rd Trombone! bar 69, what note are you playing?" >The trombonist replied "A" >"That should be A-flat" said the conductor. He could hear a single wrong note (only 1 semitone/fret off) among and orchestra of 100 people, and he knew exactly which instrument played it, and which exact note was wrong.
So he's exactly what I posted in >>61901200, and this supposed conductor is a complete fucking self-important liar. Also, even the Met didn't use fucking 100 players to do Der Ring a few years back. I should know, I was fucking there. It's pretty uncommon for there to be anywhere near that number of players in an orchestra. So the poster is also either exaggerating tremendously or lying altogether about this happening. My money's on the latter.
>Oh yeah and the conductor has to dominate the orchestra (many of whom are full of egos) >If you dont win the orchestras respect in the first 5 minutes of the first rehearsal, you're fucked. They may well treat you like shit and ignore your directions / play "blandly" and give no feedback about what might work better. They may take pity and try to do their best.
It's almost like... they don't need you?!?!?!?!? Could that BE?
>>61903804 >of course, but coordination in a large ensemble is hard since not everyone can see each other as in a chamber ensemble, uhhh have you ever had a job or, you know, been in a room with more than 5 people who have the same interest/goal if you have, you can do as much "coordination" as any conductor who isn't Toscanini-tier autistic fit-throwing.
>furthermore, every player has a different perception of the ensemble's balance patently false unless you're playing/working with fucking idiots, which implies you're not playing with good players, which implies you're not playing with high-level professionals
>the conductor occupies a place where he can see and hear the entire orchestra, wow, just like an audience! or any given human standing there
>thus coordinating its rehearsals, about 2/10 times is this true, even less at superior levels
>shaping the overall interpretation I can't really argue against something subjective that also has like 9 points fixed to 4 words, so I'll let that slide
>and correcting mistakes single players could not correct. That's not even funny at a professional level, that's just straight-up offensive. You might as well say "the conductor directs the talent". Say that or the "correcting mistakes single players could not correct" line to any professional musician, see how well it goes over. I promise you won't get out of it unharmed.
If all the musicians know the piece why the fuck does a conductor exist. to remind them how to do their job? like oh shit this guys pointing at me i totally didn't know i was supposed to play at this moment. watch an orchestra 90% of them aren't even looking at the old man
>>61904251 Don't try to bait/troll to give the opposition ammo. There's probably like 4 people stupid enough to fall for your post on /mu/; you're going to have to try harder to ruin the image of anti-conductor persons.
>>61904251 The idea is that the old man forces his artistic interpretation over everyone else's. This can be a bit annoying, because people know their own parts particularly well, but in the old man's case he has one artistic vision instead of fifty.
Conductors primarily lead rehearsals. Even if everyone knows the music there's still things that can be interpreted in different ways and the conductor is there to bring a certain sort of interpretation to the music. That's why orchestras can sound different with different conductors.
>>61895482 No. they do nothing when the orchestra play live. its like an honorific position. outside of the live representations though, they direct the orchestra so they play something that makes sense they decide how every single note should be played by every musician how tight are stacattos ect. thats why they get to wave around and dance in front of the orchestra but the songs have been practiced so much that the musicians could play them with no conductor and it would sound just as good.
while musicians can play together as a group without anyone conducting them in theory, it is up to the conductor to interpret the music to the audience. For example, in rock music, you get bands performing a cover of a song by another band, and it sounds different from the original while the core song elements are still there...same thing with a conductor. When you look at classical music album covers, it tells you who it is performed by and who the conductor is, and it makes a big difference in the feeling of the music.
Take Mars: The Bringer of War as an example. >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0bcRCCg01I
You have the orchestra playing and following the dynamics and what not. But you also get time signature changes and fermatas (notes held out). A composer can decide the mood of the piece and exaggerate what is originally there or dull it. The track in question starts softly and builds up, and the composer can make the orchestra play it urgently or less intense. He can ask some of the players to stick out a bit more and others to hold back.
The middle portion with the bassoons/contrabassoon, basses, etc I've heard it played fast and urgently (not my favorite), slow and ominous and very wave-like (more intense and orgasmic). After that portion then trumpet march returns at fortissimo and it can feel epic or just meh.
The ending as well, the conductor can get the orchestra to play with a bang and go all out loud, or he can build it up into something dramatic slowly and more held out.
While in rehearsals, you get an idea of what the conductor wants from the orchestra, regarding the speed you will be playing, cues he will give some players or everyone in solos or repetitive moments, what dynamics he wants and the feeling/intensity he wants in portions of the piece. In the actual performance, you will already have practiced enough that you won't really pay attention to the conductor except in some instances that require it. Source, was a classical bassoonist.
The conductor controls the tempo; starting the piece, any fermatas, tempo changes, etc. . Trying to get a group of people to hit a note or interpret a accel. / rit. together is literally impossible without some cue, visual or otherwise.
The conductor is also responsible for the interpretation of the piece, which can vary wildly depending on who you're asking. They dictate phrasing, balance, tempo, anything that isn't explicitly stated
And the most important job of a conductor in a highly professional environment is to do all of this in a live setting SLIGHTLY AHEAD of the ensemble. Real deal conductors of elite groups don't conduct exactly with the group, you'd get a group that was infinitely slowing down. They instead conduct slightly ahead of the group, which allows them to cue certain sections and remind the group of the various interpretations that they're supposed to be expressing.
>>61904506 >For example, in rock music, you get bands performing a cover of a song by another band, and it sounds different from the original while the core song elements are still there...same thing with a conductor. Completely invalid comparison. Give a cover band the same "instruments" (amps, pedals, distortion, mics, etc) and they will sound the same. Cover bands are also tributary - they're not *supposed* to sound identical to the original. If they did, they would be in trouble or famous.
>When you look at classical music album covers, it tells you who it is performed by and who the conductor is, Just like how it lists the vineyard and age of a bottle of wine on the label >and it makes a big difference in the feeling of the music. just like how wine enthusiasts pretend that there's an extremely distinct difference
>A conductor can decide the mood of the piece and exaggerate what is originally there or dull it. or the orchestra can do that, you know, with their collective instruments
>the conductor can make the orchestra play it urgently or less intense. He can ask some of the players to stick out a bit more and others to hold back. or the orchestra can do that, you know, with their collective instruments
>While in rehearsals, you get an idea of what the conductor wants from the orchestra or you can not have the conductor and "get an idea" of what the group wants, without some 1923 vintage Etruscan jackass telling you that all of your opinions are lesser than his.
>cues he will give some players or everyone in solos or repetitive moments You're can't possibly be a professional musician if you still need fucking external cues.
>In the actual performance, you will already have practiced enough that you won't really pay attention to the conductor or you can not have the conductor and "get an idea" of what the group wants in rehearsals, then "practice enough" for the actual performance
>>61904719 you are either trolling or something. The group can collectively perform a piece without a conductor but the sound will be like when you first sight read a piece with everyone, everyone will be all over the place in the minute details despite playing the piece in unison. The conductor gives everyone what he wants from the end product and will guide you there, but you rely on the orchestra as well to play your part. Like I've said, by the time you are performing the piece to the live audience, you already know the piece from beginning to end, you know what to expect, your cues and feeling to not really pay attention to the conductor.
>Completely invalid comparison. Give a cover band the same "instruments" (amps, pedals, distortion, mics, etc) and they will sound the same. Cover bands are also tributary - they're not *supposed* to sound identical to the original. If they did, they would be in trouble or famous.
You can easily control a group of 4 - 5 individuals without any trouble. Once you get to 50+ members, the comparison is invalid.
>Just like how it lists the vineyard and age of a bottle of wine on the label >just like how wine enthusiasts pretend that there's an extremely distinct difference
One of my favorite pieces is Dvorak's 2nd movement of the New World Symphony. I've listened to it with 5 different composers and each one is performed differently from the other in terms of mood and intensity.
>or the orchestra can do that, you know, with their collective instruments >or you can not have the conductor and "get an idea" of what the group wants, without some 1923 vintage Etruscan jackass telling you that all of your opinions are lesser than his.
already addressed this above
>You're can't possibly be a professional musician if you still need fucking external cues.
You are trolling. Ever performed a solo piece while part of the accompaniment orchestra? Who do you look to after a cadenza?
>>61904760 k i guess i know absolutely nothing because someone online said so god forbid there's any alternative
>>61904789 >no instrument Didn't say that, did I? You do know you have to be able to play multiple instruments to get a degree, right? Perhaps *you're* the one in the dark here.
3 years mandolin, 4 years flute, 7 years of piano, a decade of violin.
Guess what? None of that training helps or has helped me in any way. The extent of its aid is me being able to say "I play violin" to people asking if I know any instruments irl. All of the experience and relevant information about music that I possess is directly resultant of my position as a vocalist. I have learned absolutely nothing about the industry from the add-ons whatsoever.
>>61904858 >You can easily control a group of 4 - 5 individuals without any trouble. >One of my favorite pieces is Dvorak's 2nd movement of the New World Symphony. I've listened to it with 5 different composers and each one is performed differently >Who do you look to after a cadenza? LOL did you read the thread? do you have dementia, like every conductor I've ever worked with? if anyone is trolling, it's you I don't even know how to respond to your broken brain beyond "no" and "that's false", so I don't think I will.
>>61899435 If the orchestra is good. If the conductor is just flailing around like an absolute madman so the audience will think he's doing something special, the musicians can just follow the concert master.
And as my conducting teacher says, most of a conductor's work is in rehearsal. Once you're on stage most of your work is finished.
>>61905225 I have literally no idea what you are talking about.
>>61905197 It's amusing that I seriously wanted to debate a point and the opposition rapidly devolved into ad hominem to the extent that they don't even mention the point in their "argument". I only gave what little description I did so that you'd shut up and debate, but I guess I forgot I was on /mu/.
Just a reminder that the conductor is the piece interpreter on the biggest of scales. He pursues the living core of the piece behind the score and transmits his understanding to the people sitting in front of him.
Notes are just notes. It takes a special kind of bond with each composer for the pieces to shine. It's the same reason that there are people who can play Schubert by notes and who can live Schubert through notes.
>>61905513 >the conductor is the piece interpreter on the biggest of scales >Notes are just notes. It takes a special kind of bond with each composer for the pieces to shine. Milton Babbitt? I thought you were dead.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the shown content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows their content, archived. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content, then use the post's [Report] link! If a post is not removed within 24h contact me at email@example.com with the post's information.