If you're using language to judge these things, it'd only end up being subjective. You'd have to figure out some sort of mathematical formula to judge this, which may or may not be possible but it would certainly be a waste of time.
1. Set up a group of people who are confirmed to be patricians 2. Let these people discuss a piece of music and its merits, with everybody having done research on the artist and the themes of the album. 3. The group votes and gives the piece a rating between atrocious and masterpiece. 4. This is now the objective value of the album.
>>61883744 I suppose it would, but that's too subjective. So there's a problem.
>>61883748 >>61883772 >>61883775 There would need to be guidelines created to make the rating much easier. So that say an album is ran through those guidelines or tests ie: Songwriting. Then is given a numerical score for that category. Then an average is made and that is then the objective score.
>>61883772 Well for every song, you'd have to run thesong through a human to calculate it, you could never get a computer to accurately understand if a piece of art is good or not. That decision could only come through humans, no matter what. The criteria is all over the board in a pretty extreme manner since you have the velvet underground and you have classical music. You can't judge these things accurately without life experience.
>>61883807 Ah! But what about an album without lyrics? Should it get a 0 rating on the lyrics, bringing the total down just because it's an instrumental album? Or should it not be rated on lyrics while other albums are, making the rating system unbalanced? The rating of certain aspects of a piece of art will never work when dealing with the whole range of different genres and individual musical goals.
But what defines good songwriting? What if I think Taylor Swift strumming three chords makes for a better song than Keith Emerson performing wank on his keyboard, even though he's a much more competent musician.
>>61883802 Music is subjective, but nobody can deny that there is good taste and bad taste. Taste is defined by society, and as such the only way to get as close of a rating as possible would be to get the people with the best taste (as defined by society) to rate something. This is the most objective way to do discern value in art.
>>61883855 You can measure weight, you can measure light waves, you can measure sound frequencies, but there will never be a day where you can measure "goodness". That's something that brings me comfort personally, its what makes us human.
-the music underpins the exact message or emotions of the text at all times. -wordpainting and wordsetting is immaculate -keys and chords used symbolically, or with close relevance to the lyrics -lyrics are written and delivered in a way as to be clear and unmistakable in their meaning -holds interest throughout -has an emotional impact on a listener, ideally all listeners
And then we have the popular music world ideas of: -has a catchy melody -sells a lot of albums -is immaculately produced (concerning songs that are primarily stored on recordings, instead of sheet music like art songs /classical songs)
Then there's the criteria for ease of performance: -is easy to sing -is easy to sing and play at the same time -is within singers comfortable range -makes good use of singers voice
>>61883874 No, because good art is not defined by the popular majority. Good taste however, is defined by the popular majoritys reliance on a certain group of well-respected people to be able to discern what is good and what is not.
>>61883837 You make a good point. If two of the five or so categories were lyrics and instrumentation. Instrumental albums would get lyrics at 0 by default. Instead the average score at the end would only take into account the other four categories, not effecting the average in anyway.
What should the categories be other than songwriting/lyrical content and instrumentation.
Criteria 1: >get a large, diverse sample of people with absolute pitch >measure their brain activity when listening to a song >aggregate into average activity per region >highest score goes to the most stimulating tracks >Repeat this 10 times per track and aggregate overall stimulation
Criteria 2: >create a computerized record of all melodies ever published >develop an algorithm to check for similarities >highest score goes to tracks that have the lowest similarity percentages to the top 5 songs they're similar to
*A similar idea can be utilized for lyrics as well
>>61883916 No, but the guy said society should decide on a group of people with good taste, which would mean you end up with a group of people who listen to the same things as most people, ie mainstream pop music.
>>61883901 >-the music underpins the exact message or emotions of the text at all times. >-wordpainting and wordsetting is immaculate In my mind these are almost in direct conflict with each other. If you're sending a message as clear as possible, you can't wordpaint and obfuscate the message with clever wordplay.
>>61883901 This is really dumb. Sounds like somone trying to think up the "perfect song" and putting everything that makes music good into this one song. It's like trying to make a perfect cake by putting in all the things that make cakes great; lemon, strawberries, chocolate, sprinkles, toffee, banana, custard, etc. The result is just a horrible mess with no direction.
>>61883913 Goodness cannot be tested. You can't judge how good music is through dopamine release. There's absolutely no way to calculate how good something is, youd need to build a robot that can think exactly like a human before that's possible.
>>61883930 >these are almost in direct conflict with each other wordpainting just means making a word have a certain character. you might make "higher" arch upwards. thats word-painting. it doesn't have to clutter the meaning, if anything it should accentuate it, if done well. Word-setting is simply the art of putting words to music. its where you place the words, what melody they use, and how they fit with the chords. all songs have word-setting, but some have better word setting than others. For example the syllables sit naturally over the beat and the phrases sound natural.
>>61883937 These are all just things to think about when writing a song. you dont follow them like rules, you just try to excel in each area. great matching of meaning to chords, great lyrics and wordsetting, clarity, emotional impact and holding interest. all pretty standard things to have in a song.
Dont you want to write the greatest song you can?
>>61883940 Sure, if you want to be chino or Cobain melding words together or muffling the meaning/having vagaries, go right ahead. Often vague meanings can help more people connect with a song, as they each interpret the words in their own way.
A good songwriter doesn't need to pussy foot around though, you know exactly what the song is about, and why the music sounds the way it does. for example "mama.... just killed a man" straight away, a clear meaning, emotional impact, etc. cuts right to the core. imo thats better songwriting than vague words thrown together to create an interpretive meaning.
Add all the scores together and you will have a rough grade
>Originality [ ] / 10 >Effectiveness (does the piece do what it intended to?) [ ] / 10 >Interest level (Does it sustain interest throughout?) [ ] / 5 >Critical acclaim/popularity [ ] / 5 >Longevity +1 point per 10 years since composition (for values over 100, add +1 point per 50 years past 100) >Your own personal score (did you like it?) [ ] / 5 >Production [ ] / 3
Written music: >Use of selected compositional techniques (Perfect counterpoint, Forms, use of inversions/retrogrades/melodic cells etc) [ ] / 5 >Clarity of score [ ] / 3 >Orchestration [ ] / 5 >Idiomatic part writing [ ] / 3 >Performance: (grade from -10 to +10) [ -10 0 +10 ] >Originality/conductors handling/programme/professionalism (grade from -3 to +3) [ -3 0 +3 ]
>>61884017 Not at all, there's no way to have a human know the temperature or psi of something, wed absolutely have to use some kind of device. And the device you're looking for in this case is a robot who can think exactly like a 21st century human being, which would be the only key to this whole thing.
its called "music theory" and if you knew it, you'd know there are many many ways to objectify music, but that taste is individual.
So you could say "x piece is well composed" but the majority of people dont even like it or prefer something much simpler and more "poorly written".
So you usually factor in popularity into a judgement of a piece. Y piece may not be well composed, but it must have some element that makes it so popular. what is it? catchy melody? rising semitones in the bass? that same chord progression everyone uses?
>>61883633 first examine your own biases, tastes, and what you are really looking for in a peice of music at that moment. You don't need to justify it, just report/meditate on it
then you need to ask youself if this piece of music belong in any specific genre then compare that piece of music to others in the genre. When critisizing it and saying "leage of its own", compare it to other esoteric records, or maybe how it differs from the genre.
after you examine the genre
you then need to be familiar with music prodction- taking into consideration how appropriate the melodies are or presence of any. after you have examined melody, tempo and voice
you have effectively objectively as possible gave a comprehensive critique of a piece of music.
you can't define a way to judge music, but you can define a way to judge the reliability of the the listener's opinion.
so where Nt is the total number of albums rated, N1 is the number of 1 out of 10 given, N2 the number of 2 out of 10 given and so on, the pic related expression estimate the reliability of the listener. a good value should be around 1.
when we want to judge an album we just do a weighted average
>>61884230 Yes but I grew out of it, just like I grew out of KISS. I can't trust a person who holds up Queen as a pinnacle of songwriting to make some sort of objective measurement of good music. And I guess that's the main issue here, the objective qualities by which music would be judged are completely based off of one person's subjective opinion on what makes a great song. So in reality even this objective test would be subjective as well.
>>61883775 >confirmed to be patricians By what standard? Some say patricians only listen to dadrock, others say unless you listen to noise, drone, field recordings and Tibetan throat singing and nothing else you are still a filthy pleb.
>>61884408 A true patrician listens to a wide variety of genres and doesn't hold any one genre over all others. You have to have some appreciation for dadrock, as well as drone, noise, serialism, onkyo, sound art, pop, folk and as much as possible. A true patrician can find some value in all music, but still be able to discern the good from the bad.
>>61884260 I never said queen was the pinnacle of songwriting, it was just an example of clarity in lyrics.
Strauss' 4 last songs is the pinnacle of songwriting imo
>>61884298 The discussion of pop production value isn't really relevant to rating music. Pop music has very little to do with good songs. its marketing. you market a decently produced song, it becomes a hit.
Good music doesn't usually make it into the pop charts, or at least my opinion of good music. Classical chart maybe, but I've only heard 2 songs I would call "good" on pop radio stations over the last 5 years.
not saying they're great, but they're the best written of the pop bunch. west coast even has a tempo change going to the chorus, very cool. adele's hello is also fairly well written, part of its success. Max Martin songwriting/production once again. He seems to be where quality and commercial success intersect. Dark horse was also martin.
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