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Pitchfork Cringe Thread
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You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music

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"What site are you on right now? The Economist? Nah, bro: Pitchfork. Of course we’re psyched about new AnCo."

http://pitchfork.com/features/staff-lists/9778-the-27-albums-were-most-excited-for-in-2016/

What P4K con ten have you cringed the hardest at lately? Old classics also welcome
>>
>>61703080
*Content.
>>
>early Beatles, early Ramones, and dinosaurs

don't they have editors to point out this kind of redundancy?
>>
>>61703080
>reading pitchfork

I don't think I've ever read a review by Pitchfork. I feel sorry for you
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>>61703146
It's like a train wreck man, I can't look away.
>>
"bro" "psyched" "nah" "AnCo"
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>>61703180
Why read it when you can just look at the score they gave an album and decide whether it's a shit review or not
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>>61703144
underrated post
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>>61703144
lol
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>>61703228
Sometimes the shitty reviews are fun to read
Reading angry reviews relieves a lot of stress
>>
>>61703080
The Economist is the GOAT site
>>
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I cringed at this.
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>>61703228
Because some of them are masterpieces of cringe. Like this classic:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040810064854/www.pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/c/coltrane_john/live-at-the-village-vanguard.shtml
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>>61703340
"Problematic"

I fucking despise this word.
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>>61703347
"Shit, cat."
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>>61703340
>>
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>>61703080
I've always hated the review of Momus' Little Red Songbook. Not because of the score, or because I'm especially fond of LRS, but because of how bad the review itself it. It almost feels more pretentious than the fucking album.
http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/5386-the-little-red-songbook/

The image isn't all of it.
>>
>>61703222
lel
>>
>>61703080
>>61703340
Oh my god, I haven't actually read pitchfork for a couple years but I never remember it being THIS bad, holy shit
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>>61703644
lol that's fucking terrible
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Could they have written a more pretentious review?
Also this should be pasta
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>>61703080
It seems like everything about Pitchfork went down the shitter after Conde Nast bought them out. I've been avoiding them like the plague ever since.
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>>61703144
so underrated
>>
>>61703985
Also the OK Computer review from the same list is pretty cringey.
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>>61703644
Jesus what the fuck is that first paragraph
>>
>>61704112
anything dicrescenzo writes is cringey
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>>61703711
Holy shit, I never knew about this. I'm assuming that guy didn't work their long.
>>
>>61703222
very accurate
>>
>>61704223
Yep. His last review is hilarious as well, spends the whole time bitching about being a critic and Pitchfork.

http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/12923-check-your-head-deluxe-edition/
>>
>>61703080
Never mind all this shit, they're excited for Chairlift? This song is cringe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWSFlqBOgl8
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>>61703985
this isn't really that bad of a review

maybe too "meta" and aware of the current critical outlook of Nirvana and 90s alt rock but still decently insightful
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>>61704291
Man, Chairlift have really gone full generic pop haven't they?
>>
>>61703222
Ha! Yes
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>>61703080
their use of colloquialisms are so painful to read. it just comes across as desperate

>>61703222
exactly
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>>61704473
I agree. Not a great album, but giving anything that low a grade is ridiculous. It's blatant attention seeking.
>>
>>61703711
Those are all Glam Rock masterworks though
>>
>>61704259
Wrong link

http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/608-to-the-5-boroughs/
"Still, my interaction with music goes well beyond simple, academic analysis of sound. Nostalgia, emotional context, the continued story and history behind the artist, the packaging, and everything else matters in my love and fascination with music. This is why writing for Pitchfork, which prides itself on discovering unknown underground artists, means so little to me anymore. Listening to music as some form of continued, insular experiment with recording driven by faceless, MP3-based rock bands bores me. I was immediately prepared to love To the 5 Boroughs from my history with the band-- from listening to Ill while playing Atari with Andy Eberhardt, to mowing neighborhood lawns with Gregg Bernstein and Paul's Boutique in a walkman, to holding my portable CD player off the front cushion of my Buick Century to keep Check Your Head from skipping as I passed over the speed bumps in the Marist parking lot every day after my Junior year, to shooting bottle rockets from poster tubes at passing trucks on 400 off the roof of the AMC multiplex I worked at when Ill Communication came out. It is not mentally possibly for me to switch on apathy towards the group."

Only a real autist would put this in a music review
>>
>>61703374
i dont even know why i hate it and i hate it
>>
>>61704327
Look at the second half of the last paragraph, read it, think about it.
>>
>>61703080
>this is considered journalism
Pitchfork reviewers are more pathetic than film critics
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>>61704616
It's a smug word that's always wielded by smug pricks.
>>
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Remember, you are racist if you thought Kanye interrupting Taylor Swift was bad
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>>61705036
Of course, everything is about race bruh
>>
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http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/710-the-unbearable-whiteness-of-indie/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/850-op-ed-white-privilege-and-black-lives-in-the-baltimore-music-scene/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/767-op-ed-should-the-black-artistic-class-go-on-strike/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/885-op-ed-on-kanye-west-and-black-humility/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/869-op-ed-what-does-the-white-rapper-owe-blacklivesmatter/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/846-vince-staples-and-the-accessibility-of-black-experience/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/849-nina-simones-insistent-blackness/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/615-the-year-in-black-erasure/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/704-on-kendrick-lamar-and-black-humanity/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/613-dangelos-black-messiah-is-1-in-our-hearts-but-not-on-the-charts-what-gives/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/853-chance-the-rappers-set-at-pitchfork-was-peakblackness-and-peakchicago/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/631-new-blackness-pharrell-kanye-and-jay-z-and-the-spectre-of-white-aspiration/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/634-black-weirdo-rich-kids-zoe-willow-jaden-and-pop-nepotism/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/592-how-to-raise-hell-in-three-steps-on-run-dmc-parliament-blackness-and-revolution/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/836-the-crisis-of-gentrification-hits-the-austin-music-scene/

http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/839-lauryn-hill-owes-us-nothing/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/687-who-said-it-god-or-kanye/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/762-what-trina-taught-me/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/829-the-obama-presidency-playlist/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/731-earl-sweatshirt-and-tyler-the-creators-odd-future-as-mature-adults/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/724-the-prosperity-gospel-of-rihanna/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/827-a-rihanna-bitch-better-have-my-money-video-roundtable/
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/603-the-most-essential-nigerian-afropop-tracks-of-2014/
>>
>>61705172
Fuck me. This is why I stopped reading the pitch stuff.
>>
>>61705036
lmao who gives these fuckheads permission to talk on behalf of blacks all the time anyway. The amount of times that Meaghan Garvey has done it is ridiculous too.
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WE
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>>61705255
liking white music makes you a little bit too interested in white interests goy, someone might just think you're a white supremist
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>>61705255
That does seem a bit ridiculous.
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>>61705255
>12% of US population is black
>54% of a US music publications best of list is black

top klek
>>
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>>61703144
top kek
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>>61705359
Affirmative action in music taste form, how bizarre.
>>
>>61705255
This is ridiculous, there's no balance at all. Do they not like anything other than R&B, electro and rap these days?
>>
>>61705255

Pitchfork used to be an indie site that also touched on hip-hop

It is now a hip-hop/R&B site that touches on indie while using all the "indie cred" they baked over the decade for hits
>>
>>61703222
even steve buscemi does it too though, look at him hanging out with this guy from the latest pitchfork buzzband
>>
>>61705690
LOL

Is he actually a fan.
>>
can we talk about this

http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/368-untilted/
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>>61705518
Hit the nail on the head

It's pathetically obvious. Every indie band that comes along gets a decent, but not impressive grade, and bands that abandon indie and rock in favour of R&B are favoured (look no further than Tame Impala)
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>>61705754
I've read this so many times, and I still don't know what the fuck he was going for with this bullshit play.
>>
>>61705255

2009 was the last year Pitchfork was the Pitchfork we used to know.

Kanye's 10.0 in 2010 was the official nail in the coffin and the catalyst to what it (and all sites like Stereogum, etc.) have turned into today.
>>
>>61705811
Like it says at the bottom, it's a reference to the book Gödel, Escher, Bach, but I think they failed at recreating the logical fallacy that the original dialogue illustrated.

It also fails as a review since there are literally 3 sentences about the actual music.
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>>61705896
who says an album review has to be about the music?
>>
>>61705916
hi marcel
>>
>>61703080
>con ten
how the fuck do you get this word wrong in this way
>>
>>61705939
KEK
>>
do you guys still browse sputnikmusic?
>>
>>61705854
2009 was also the shittest year of music (arguably ever), especially for indie. MPP was the only redeemable album released that year and the last nail in the coffin for the indie hype-machine.

Fortunately 2010 onwards ushered in a renaissance of hip-hop that is often referred to as the meme-rap movement.
>>
>>61706046
the worst year for music was 1976
>>
>>61706059
*2009

fixed
>>
>>61706094
f*ck off ok?????
>>
>>61705916
Well, it doesn't really. I do like music reviews that take into account the listeners/reviewers experience as well as taking into account the underlying contexts and place in culture - I have no problem with reviews that reject formalism in music.

This review was lazy though. It pretty much only touches on the dichotomy of Autechre's older melodic style of music v. their more experimental and "challenging" music and whether or not their intellectual side is more valuable than their danceable/innately relatable side. As far as I'm concerned, it's a very stale conversation, as it's framed the discourse about them since LP5 was released.
>>
I don't understand the point of music reviews aside from stuff like RYM which can give you an idea of what the artist's best albums are.
If you like or dislike the music, what is a review supposed to do? Change your opinion? If you really cared about the music why would you let the review influence you?
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>>61705955
I think I wrote "Conten" and then it auto-corrected to that.
>>
>>61706227
Some people like to hear other's thoughts and viewpoints on an album.
>>
>>61703644
I literally felt ill after reading the first paragraph.
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>>61706015
I do it's cool.
>>
>>61703985
>had the balls to be ridiculously unthinkably fucking brilliant
Fucking nauseating
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>>61706046
>MPP was the only redeemable album released that year
hospice and masked dancers (if you count midwest emo as indie) were bretty good too
>>
>>61706015
Yes. They actually seem like they enjoy music, not just writing think pieces about trends in music, and sociological implication.
>>
>>61706395
WOW 3 GOOD ALBUMS IN ONE YEAR HOLY SHIT

Nowadays there's an abundance of great music. Every year this decade (probably except for 2014) there have upwards of at times 50 great albums released a year.
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>>61704640
I really don't see a problem with it to be honest. Other than that brilliant line. Dude's trying to focus on the music. Says Nevermind wasn't popular because of the trends of the day, but because it was a classic album. After that he points out they had punk roots (true), promoted obscure artists (true), and were good (true).

/mu/ could probably stand to read that last line a few thousand times.
>>
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>>61706577
>wasn't popular because of the trends of the day
>Nirvana's most accessible album
>>
>>61703374
prime example of a vaginal word
>>
>reading pitchfork
>any year
don't pretend like it was ever fucking good.
>>
>>61706699
>vaginal word
please explaoin
>>
>>61707110
*explain
>>
>>61703144
lmao
>>
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>>61703080
holy shit i didn't think pitchfork was that bad but wtf

This is objectively false
>>
>>61705720

Buscemi started acting in no wave movies in the 80's. He and Gira probably crossed the path at least once (despite Gira hating the term "no wave")
>>
>>61705252

You can't be more nu-male than this.
>>
>>61705255

p4k never had any credit in first place.
>>
>>61707296
I guess Young Thug is great now?
>>
>>61707492
at least in the past they weren't so violently shit
>>
>>61703080
At least Parquet Courts and Ty Segall are up there
>>
>Now we can shut up and get on with the music
Why didn't Pitchfork just do this in the first place
>>
>>61704112
loveless is much better tbqh, this only confirms
>>
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>>61703080
>first record since 2012's Centipede Hz
>Centipede Hz came out in 2012

wtf srsly?!

holy shit does this time fucking go. thats 4 fucking years ago. if you asked me I would have said like 13 months ago or some shit.

jesus
>>
>>61704291
Do you think they ever realised that wasn't Mac Demarco
>>
>>61703080
>No Swans
>No St. Vincent
what the fuck

Also i just learned parquet courts is going to release another full album, nice. Last EP was quite interesting and experimental.
>>
>>61707868
>swans
Because I want to listen to 5 minute of build up, into NOTHING
>>
>>61707913
Here's your (You)
>>
>>61707913
Reply.
>>
>>61707868
>Swans
wait, i know they were going to put out an album this year but did they already reveal the title or something?
>>
>>61703222
>>
>>61708052
>>61708105
>when people literally can't argue with you
>>
Geez guys I thought it was kind of funny, at least they're self aware that they spooge all over every Animal Collective release
>>
>influenced by the beatles
beatles without George Harrison (read: the Deak)
>>
>>61704698
*smug women
>>
>>61709093
Men seem to use it just as much.
>>
>>61709093
yknow now that i think about it ive never seen a guy use 'problematic'. personally the word pisses me off because ive seen it get applied to people making fun of otherkin, and people who have raped someone. its a vague and arbitrary term and doesnt need to exist
>>
>>61703144
Nice bantz, nice dubs
>>
>>61703374
It's a very useful word, it's just that annoying people use it. I now usually say that X has been "problematized" (usually in the context of philosophy).
>>
>>61709069
but deak is ringo
>>
>>61709208
>its a vague and arbitrary term and doesnt need to exist
um, what. it's a perfectly valid term. and language itself can be vague - "bad and "good" can be just as subjective, thus can also be considered arbitrary.
>>
>>61705172
I'm not white, so please stop talking on my behalf Meagan, you ugly cunt.
>>
>>61703340
>problematic

So now they're cucks and SJW's, what a stunning turn of events for the Pitchfork staff.
>>
>>61707710
l m a o

go to bed kid
>>
>>61709253
i got that bad and good can be subjecitve, but if 'bad' already exists then whats the need for 'problematic'? why cant people just say 'x believes/said/did [__]' instead of 'x is problematic'?
>>
>>61705036
"defend a black woman" implies that beyonce was under attack from someone

jesus christ
>>
This one always annoyed the shit out of me.

http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/3430-something-to-write-home-about/
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>>61709328
what's the need for like 75% of words in the english language then? i mean most words have synonyms/things that basically mean the same thing.
>>
>>61709477
well, certain words denote to what degree you feel something, for example: I feel bad doesn't have the same connotation as I feel awful. But yeah, I agree, alot of the words in the English language are pretty useless
>>
>>61703222
This
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>>61709548
well that goes back to "problematic" - it's popular to use it to denote something that's controversial/contentious/"un-pc" nowadays, but it's actually a very useful word when you use it in the context of something that's challenging or presents a problem (which used to be the more common usage before tumblr got ahold of it). it's not just "bad."
>>
>>61705359
What does that have to do with music? Do you bring that up in a list of best albums of the 50s too?
>>
>>61709477
there are a lot of unecessary words but see this >>61709548

plus certain words just make more sense in different situations than others, even if they are similar in meaning
>>
>>61709620
>but it's actually a very useful word when you use it in the context of something that's challenging or presents a problem
thats true but thats not what it gets used for, 90% of the time
>>
>>61709620
yeah, I agree. problematic used in the whole "pc" way seems really out of place, kinda like they're blowing certain things out of proportion.
>>
>>61709242
no one cares
>>
>>61709657
>plus certain words just make more sense in different situations than others, even if they are similar in meaning
well yes, and that's why i don't think "problematic" is unnecessary despite the fact that other words share it's same general meaning. there are contexts where it's the best fit imo, though i agree that it's not in the way people are using atm.

>>61709670
>>61709672
well, certain words go through trends and cycles - signs and their signifiers evolve all the time - and while right now it's popular to use problematic in that circumstance, i don't think that discounts it's more ubiquitous (or "academic", if you like) usage before it became a buzzword on the internet.
>>
>>61709685
Let me revise my opinion. "Problematic is such a shitty word!!! Feminist cuck nu male beta purple hair". There, now you can suck my dick.
>>
So you all guys criticize pitchfork but in the end you'all listen to the same records as them every year.
>>
>>61703340
What's the problem with Vietcong?
>>
>>61711356
i never understood either
>>
>>61705303
>Barter 6
>8.4
I love Thugger and all but holy shit that album was boring.
>>
>>61711449
Falling for the young thug meme
>>
>>61709333
And that the most significant thing about her is she's black. I mean she's an unfathomably successful business woman with hundreds of hits and millions of fans an- HOLY SHIT SHE'S BLACK! HEY EVERYBODY LOOK!
>>
>>61711457
Just falling for Young Thug desu
>>
>>61703374
the word that SJWs use to describe things they don't like, but don't offer any solutions to said problem
>>
>>61711356
"It might upset someone"
No one was actually upset, they just changed it because it could possibly upset people
>>
>>61703080
>con ten

I think that when one's speaking about a site with bought reviews, this is a pretty accurate term.
>>
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>>61703080
>The Economist?

>implying i read centre-left multiculti shilling newsoutlets
>>
>>61703080
I like how they make a joke about AnCo being synonymous with p4k in the same garbage-ass write up in which they get a band member's name wrong
>>
>>61703340
I like how they're trying to pretend it would have actually been a big deal if not for their own trust fund retard writers
>>
>>61705036
came to post this. I fucking hate the perfunctory, mind numbing political correctness of P4k. I won't go there again
>>
>>61706694
I'm not saying I agree with him, I'm just saying it isn't "pretentious" like the other user said.

I do agree with him, though. There were 100s of albums released at that time that fit with the general mindset. Nevermind topped them all by a landslide for a reason: it was better.
>>
>>61706046
Embryonic you pleb
>>
>>61711594
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7bNrCRY618
>>
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Can't believe no one's posted this yet. White guy tries to sound black to review John Coltrane. So bad they took it off the site

>The Village Vanguard. New York City. 1961.

>We was sittin’ there watchin’ the stage. Waitin’ for the man they called Coltrane to come out and do his thing. It was me and my four droogs. Them bein’ Peter, Georgio and Dim; Dim being really Dim.

>‘Round an hour’d passed and the place was packed straight through to the back. I’d just dropped some dollars for ‘Trane’s Giant Steps six months back. Now was the time, this was the place. The Village Vanguard. New York City. 1961.

>I was only there for the first night, see, but them cats at Impulse! just made my life complete. They put out four CDs of all that sound ‘Trane put out those nights. But you know my type, man. Can’t afford to eat, let alone spend some heavy cash on music. So I only got the essential. Live at the Village Vanguard: The Master Takes is one disc, makin’ it one-fourth the cost of the box set. And you only get the best stuff.

>Man, the opening beauty of “Spiritual…” It’s like a dream I had: I floated on the River Nile, smokin’ some fresh weed, relaxin’. But I ain’t ever gonna see the Nile anyhow. This track’s as close as I come, and it’s close enough. Best of the best, though, has gotta be “India.” It’s only when you listen to a perfect old jazz tune like this that you realize how much drum-n-bass is derived from this music. ‘Trane takes it to heaven and back with some style, man. Some richness, daddy. It’s a sad thing his life was cut short by them jaws o’ death.

>Shit, cat. It don’t make a difference. The man produced enough good music to last me a lifetime. This Village Vanguard thing’s just another example of the genius of Coltrane.
>>
>>61713508
holy shit
>>
>>61713438
This pile of shit sounds better than the others
>>
>>61713508
>CDs
>>
>>61713438
You legitimately wrote a better review by talking about this review.
>>
>>61703222
hahaha
>>
I find this thread problematic.
>>
>>61707425
>no wave movies

hello pitchfork
>>
>>61709295
he's right though. radiohead sucks
>>
>>61713508
How you know he's white?
>>
>>61714057
https://www.google.nl/search?tbm=isch&q=ryan+schreiber
in case you somehow couldn't figure it out from the review lol
>>
>>61703778
did he really just say that the beach boys inspired the beatles?
>>
>>61714093
But he looks young. Not like he's was old enough to see coltrane at 61'.
>>
>>61713508
I already posted it up thread, but yeah man, white hot fucking cringe. Ryan Schreiber is a talentless hack.

>Shit, cat.
>>
>>61714130
He wasn't obviously, he's just a fucking idiot.
>>
>>61714130
Obviously. That's why the review is retarded. (well, one of the reasons why).
>>
>>61709405
>http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/3430-something-to-write-home-about/
>>61709405
its a shit album. in a shit genre.
>>
>>61709253
True, but that buzzword specifically is used as a vague way to dismiss something without being able to explain why.
>>
>>61713478
I love how they never actually explain what the damage is, they just say "you're causing damage to our community."

No one ever actually explains how a band name is cultural appropriation or hurtful to others or whatever.
>>
>>61703340
They had venues cancel their shows because of their name. "Problematic" might be overused but it's not exactly wrong in this context.
>>
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A Pitchfork album rating is completely dependent on the particular reviewer in question. They all have weirdly different opinions. You niggas need to stick with Scaruffi, he reviews every album himself and his library is far more vast:
http://www.scaruffi.com/music/groups.html
Truly staggering. He's obviously a genius but he's also a loon so it's usually entertaining stuff.
>>
>>61715528
Kinda. Pitchfork ratings are a general consensus they come to on their messageboards, and then they pick the reviewer who agrees with that exact score. Old staff members have talked about what the process was like. So while there is variety of opinions among the staff, the score is an average of whichever staff members have listened to the album.
>>
>>61705252
>literally a jew
w-w-was /pol/ right?
>>
>>61705252
Meaghan Garvey is a hero. She looked and dressed like a typical suburban white girl until a couple years ago, earning all that great white privilege, and then changed her tone when that was no longer trendy. Truly aspirational!
>>
>>61705252
That beard looks like it was drawn on with a sharpie.
>>
>>61703340
They didnt mention swans at all who for sure have an album coming out soon but they had to talk about SJW victory over a band that as far as I know hasnt even mentioned anything about new material.

ffs this website
>>
>>61705303
>gross who wants to look like a shithead

KEK
>>
>>61705303
Black culture is a cancer on civilized society
>>
>>61714203
>Be a hip cat
>Be a shit cat
>Somewhere
>Amywhere
>>
>>61703778
I refuse to believe this isn't a fucking parody holy S H I T
>>
>>61714123
the review is shit, but he's not wrong about that. paul mccartney has said that pet sounds was a big influence on sgt. pepper
>>
wew there is some good cringe here, I mean I knew P4K had some bad shit but this is disturbing some evidence.
>>
>>61703778
>to these young ears
suck my dick
>>
I adore this album and can't stand this review.
Fuck this guy, seriously. Even Scaruffi praised this album.
>>
>>61716725
did this nigga just call Intolerance an artistic failure
>>
>>61715528
does anyone actually take scruffy seriously?
i thought he was just a meme
>>
>>61704112
>The sound overwhelms to such an extent that multiple listens are unnecessary and taxing.
>multiple listens are unnecessary

How can reviewers like this even begin to evaluate and discuss albums based on actual musical merit?
>>
>>61716741
yes. he says a lot of stupid things in this review.
>>
>>61705172
Fuck dude.

Don't you have better things to do? Pitchfork is garbage, but damn this is going overboard
>>
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desu
>>
>>61705252
>listens to Drake once
>>
>>61717146
Accurate
>>
>>61718612
bad taste tbqh
>>
>>61707509
he's always been great. Barter 6 is fire
>>
>>61713991
no wave films? what exactly are you implying?
>>
>>61705255
Hi there. Another sign that L'Epic is only loved by people that don't listen to jazz: #31 is listed as "'The' Rhythm Changes"
>>
>>61711594
That's actually not true. There were a lot of people in viet nam whose lives were directly negatively affected by the viet cong, and I remember reading somewhere about how they felt about it, which is to say not good. And in light of that, I think it was very mature of them to make the decision to change their name. Otherwise, I'd totally agree with you, for the most part SJW's are a plague that pretty much exists to antagonize people who mean well and usually don't actually produce anything that should rightly be offensive (see pic).
>>
>>61719358
>vietcong are bad guys and americans are good guys
>>
>>61719358
Except, literally just using the name Viet Cong does none of this.
>>
>>61719358
It's a band name
>>
>>61715528
The problem i have with Scaruffi is that sometimes he just gives poor arguments.
Thread replies: 203
Thread images: 29
Thread DB ID: 421639



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