Electronic music is good as a genre, because it describes a specific musical tradition. Now, not all music made with electronics is Electronic Music. An example of this would be Radiohead. They make use of electronics, but their music isn't considered to be Electronic Music. That's because they are not part of this Electronic Music tradition.
>>61602677 >>61602698 I'm with Avant-Math on this one. Electronics are used widely in almost every genre (and kind) of music. The term tradition, although a notch to broad I think it's a good working term for what electronic music exemplifies, since what I think puts a certain artist in a certain genre is the mindset, not the tools.
>>61602805 >what I think puts a certain artist in a certain genre is the mindset No. It's the tradition they follow. Of course, when people follow said traditions, they innovate from time to time, making those innovations the new tradition, and so on. That's what genres are. That's why we call genres like Jazz, Rock, and Electronic genres.
>>61602900 >Its not what I think, its what ever website and source in the world says. Their definitions are stupid and inconsistent. The best way to define Electronic Music as a genre is through the means of following and innovating on specific traditions.
>No there isn't. Yes, there is. That's why people consider genres like Progressive Electronic, House, Techno, "IDM", etc to be part of this bigger genre called Electronic Music.
>>61602917 Because it's an improvement on the original, yet inconsistent, definition.
if you are really set on electronic music being about [use of electronics] then really you should include all modern rock music, because i guarantee you won't be able to find any rock albums produced after 1975 that didn't use any electronics at all
Its a fact. If you spent 5 minutes reading literally anything you'd know this and you'd also know the difference between electronic instruments and electronically amplified instruments and mastering etc
>>61601359 >>300 words for rock >>use label ''electronic'' unironically this is your fucking problem. There are not 300 words for 'rock.' Rock is an umbrella term that can refer to a plethora of genres, yet it still gets used and when it does most people are intelligent enough to assess the context it's being used in and know more or less exactly what is being talked about. For some retarded reason electronic music fans are to autistic to grasp this simple nuance of word use. It's completely idiotic since what is being demanded is a reduction of everyone's vocabulary and the absence of a useful blanket term whose meaning is adjustable to the context. Basically just people wanting to cause an inconvenience so they have more arbitrary reasons to think they are better than other people.
>>61601851 That's like complaining that arranged noise is under the umbrella term "music." You can break down classical music further into movements and regions. Things weren't always as global as they are now, so Bach never felt the need to stand out by labelling himself as a Northern post-renaissance.
>>61602997 >>61603047 >Electronic music is music that employs electronic musical instruments and electronic music technology in its production, an electronic musician being a musician who composes and/or performs such music. In general a distinction can be made between sound produced using electromechanical means and that produced using electronic technology.
>An electronic musical instrument is a musical instrument that produces sound using electronics. Such an instrument sounds by outputting an electrical audio signal that ultimately drives a loudspeaker.
>>61603109 I'm not disagreeing with those definitions, they are correct. Those two things are effectively electronic music and electronic musical instruments. What I'm talking about here is about the Electronic Music GENRE.
>>61603157 Techno and House are, right? And they both gre from the traditions of Electro, right? ANd from those three genres, a lot of other genres spawned, right? So, the Electronic Music genre would be all the genres that spawned from Electro.
>>61603197 It doesn't. You might want to elaborate on it more if you think it does.
>drum and bass is not an electronic genre because it is built on the amen break therefore is funk >house is not an electronic genre because it is the child of disco which is the child of funk
plus, a HUGE majority of "electronic music" producers come from backgrounds that had nothing to do with electronic. If that is your criteria, you can write off a shit load of techno and house producers who came from completely different scenes
>>61603387 i dunno, i mean to me, as someone who grew up listening to electronic music, when i first heard eno i had to make a bit of effort to hear past all the guitars and pianos and real drums and so on
i know to a rockist he seems like le electronic music man but to me he seems like a rock guy who's dabbling in electronics, like pink floyd or radiohead or whatever
>>61603373 >There is no specific electronic music genre. See >Techno and House are, right? And they both grew from the traditions of Electro, right? >And from those three genres, a lot of other genres spawned, right? So, the Electronic Music genre would be all the genres that spawned from Electro.
>You have electronic music which is ALL music made with electronic instruments or one of >>61603245 Some of those genre can be grouped into bigger supra-genres. For example, House and Techno being sub-genres of Electro.
>>61603214 you definition of genre is pedantic and moronic. Genres as terms exist to facilitate communication, and genre terms have differing meanings in differing contexts, just like you can say dub and be referring to roots reggae or kinds of club music from the UK. Using Electronic music as a genre term is perfectly sound, just the same as rock, and the two can refer to different things in different circumstances.
like this:>>61603291 >ambient is not an electronic music genre that's clearly retarded. anyone who can't understand how 'ambient' can refer to both things in different contexts is a dumbass. If you were having a conversation about electronic ambient artists (not even to mention the vast majority of ambient artists today are electronic) you wouldn't get suddenly confused if someone said a statement about 'ambient' instead of 'electronic ambient,' because you are presumable a reasonable human that understands what is being talked about.
The same stands for electronic music. Any confusion that would arise from it's use would at best be momentary, and any sane person would have gained clarity in the situation within a few seconds of communicating, yet that's not any fun for the autist republic of electronica that would rather masturbate over arbitrarily self serving semantics.
>>61603436 I don't see how Synthpop sounds similar to Schaeffer
>>61603451 I'm not saying Electro is the starting point. I just used it as an example. The starting point could probably be Schaeffer/Stockhausen, but I haven't been able to draw the line that far away. The genre (as a genre) seems to have started in the late 60s with Progressive Electronic. I could be wrong, of course.
>>61603470 There is indeed an Electro-Disco genre. Loo it up at RYM or Wikipedia if you don't believe me.
>>61603478 I used to think so, but changed my mind on this. Kraftwerk wasn't really a rock band at the end, and they were far less responsible of the development of electronic music as people like to make it seem.
>>61603527 >The starting point could probably be Schaeffer/Stockhausen, but I haven't been able to draw the line that far away. The genre (as a genre) seems to have started in the late 60s with Progressive Electronic. I could be wrong, of course.
It all depends if you are looking at electronic music as the production method (thats all it is), or some mythical genre (there isn't one).
>>61603527 >There is indeed an Electro-Disco genre. Loo it up at RYM or Wikipedia if you don't believe me. that precisely is the disco incorporating electronic instrumentation I was talking about turns out people treat it for a genre huh
>>61603591 >but I wouldn't be so quick to call an opposing statement to be retarded. this is why you are retarded, The opposing statement is not an object of derision because it is untrue, but because it is simultaneously true with it's converse.
>>61603676 >this is why you are retarded No. I said I agree with you. But jumping into that kind of quick conclusions without trying to understand the opposing point of view is actually immature and stupid.
>The opposing statement is not an object of derision because it is untrue Nice circular logic
>>61603566 >or some mythical genre (there isn't one) There are certain philosophies and mindsets adopted when making electronic music, like giving preference to sound over music, the creation itself over the creation process, etc. things which set the difference between a piece of electronic music and a piece of music simply incorporating electronic instrumentation. Luigi Russolo and his manifesto "The Art of Noises" specifically have conceived what we know as electronic music: the genre.
>house is more of a disco and r&b subgenre with electronic instruments. Looking through the RYM Disco timeline, the first House recordings are all tagged as Electro-Disco, that's why I say House is an Electro sub-genre. Do you disagree with this way of establishing House as an Electro sub-genre? If yes, what alternative do you propose?
>>61603760 The way I already said, house came from disco and r&b with electronic instruments.
>>61603766 >Electronic music is music that employs electronic musical instruments and electronic music technology in its production, an electronic musician being a musician who composes and/or performs such music. In general a distinction can be made between sound produced using electromechanical means and that produced using electronic technology.
>>61603753 You can't really prove that. It's going to be either inconclusive or proven true. At this point, it seems that all forms of electronic music are sub-genres of some electronic music from the late 60s thanks to Progressive Electronic.
>>61603853 nah electronic instruments pre-date the invention of the tape machine
and concrete is very specifically music made with tape machines (using recorded sound as a source) and not oscillators or synths at all
i guess what i;m saying is there's no direct lineage between schaeffer and the paris crew and syths pop, which really if you want to credit to an old guy you should go for raymond scott or if you want to go as far back as possible, thaddeus cahill or one of those boys
>>61603716 >Nice circular logic literally not curricular logic.
>>61603716 >jumping into that kind of quick conclusions without trying to understand the opposing point of view is actually immature and stupid. that much better describes your post than mine considering you are dismissing the abstract concept being explained to your dull ass with there words "nice circular logic"
Done. Idk what I was thinking, anyone foolish enough to engage in this abysmal shit isn't worth the time of day.
What avant-math means by post-electro electronic music is clearly electronica, or as allmusic puts it: post-techno electronic music, or to clarify it even better: music that stems from, or has influences, origins in the techno/electro dance music spheres.
>>61603929 >I can because you're the only one saying it exists, with no proof or citations. Absence of proof doesn't mean the statement is false. That's basic logic.
>So not electro now? Eventually you will get all the way back to Schaeffer and Halim and realise this whole time you were wrong. The Electro thing was an example. So far I have only been able to go back to the german progressive electronic artists. Could you help me to draw the line even further?
>>61603934 >literally not curricular logic. Uhm >The opposing statement is not an object of derision because it is untrue >X is not False because not X is False >X is True because X is True Yeah, totally not circular logic
>you are dismissing the abstract concept being explained to your dull ass with there words "nice circular logic" Well, you literally used circular logic. See above
>Done. Idk what I was thinking, anyone foolish enough to engage in this abysmal shit isn't worth the time of day. >anyone who doesn't accept pre-established values as they have always been without questioning them is an idiot Yeah...
>>61604019 The Electro thing was an example. The line could be drawn ever further towards the late 60s progressive electronic artists.
>>61604071 lamo. maybe you should change your name to literal math god cause you haven't got the brain to comprehend Avant-Math, which is to say, you are laughably clueless to the abstract concept being explained to you.
For fucks sake, it's not even abstract really. It's completely possible in regular logic for a statement and it's converse statement to be true.
>>61604181 You just saw a demonstration fo your argument being circular logic (X is True because X is True). That argument is literally and objectively invalid. You are the one with a mental deficiency if you think circular logic is valid. And no, this isn't a case of "a statement and it's converse statement to be true". I suggest you to make your argument again, but more careful this time.
>>61604240 Electronic Music =/= Music from the Electronic Music Genre
>>61604311 >What mythical Electronic Music Genre are you talking about? >The best way to define Electronic Music as a genre is through the means of following and innovating on specific traditions. That's how it works for genres like Rock and Jazz too.
>>61604379 House is a genre, Techno is a genre, both are sub-genres from Electro, and we can keep going until englobing most (but maybe not all) electronic music genres into a single one (just like Rock and Jazz). Nobody cares about the OP.
>>61604298 >And no, this isn't a case of "a statement and it's converse statement to be true". that's exactly what it is. The ststement is question wasn't even written primarily as an affirmative declaration of an argument, but as a summation of the argument that was already presented, illustrating the basic abstract concept you are too retarded to comprehend, yet it even bears true when lowered to your pedantic level of non figurative communicating, and that's why I am lamoing at your life.
>>61604553 your tiny gay mind is assuming that x is a constant.
you are a genuine moron to have made these posts. hopefully someone is looking after you and you aren't in any danger, cause n the sudden absence of your vast stupidity the contents of mu would surely shift and collapse in to a great void. Stay safe little man.
>>61604873 that's for the (You). Many reasonable people long for the world to be as simple as you are able to understand it, so next time you are feeling down remember that you have that going for you. Dumb fuck.
>>61605376 You are asking to be spoonfed what has already been said, even though the past several posts have all been purely for your benefit that they might make clear to you what you failed to understand already. To continue at this point would be going full circle, which is obviously illogical for me to do considering you are a dumb little man.
>>61605503 You never said why it's retarded to consider the possibility of ambient not being an electronic music subgenre (except for the circular logic thing). Is it really that difficult for you to understand this?
>>61605699 Here >>61603482 >ambient is not an electronic music genre >that's clearly retarded And you tell me I don't have reading comprehension...
> You don't understand half of what has been said to you. Says the guy who uses circular logic as an argument and can't even remember what his point has been the whole time. Yeah, very smart of you. Do you study music by any chance?
>Ambient is more than one thing. it's very fucking simple you dumbass my god. Not what we were arguing about.
>>61605781 >>ambient is not an electronic music genre >>61605781 >>that's clearly retarded THEN: anyone who can't understand how 'ambient' can refer to both things in different contexts is a dumbass. >>61605781 >Says the guy who uses circular logic as an argument and can't even remember what his point has been the whole time. not using circular logic at all you retard. My god, I can't believe I am still talking to your retarded ass so bear with cause I need to drive this home to post at all at this point, you are an unbearable retard.
ONE LAST TIME AS CLEARLY AS POSSIBLE FOR YOUR DUMB FUCK MIND:
>>61605781 >>ambient is not an electronic music genre >>that's clearly retarded he said "ambient is not an electronic music genre" as a prescriptive statement. That is retarded because as was demonstrated, and as you even agreed with, it clearly can be with a context. This is not to say ambient as a broader genre does not also exist, it does, both exist. The statement was retarded because it acts as if on one definition is correct when both are correct. Anyone with reading comprehension can understand what my post is illustrating with so called 'circular logic,' as it clearly elegantly summarizes the same ideas that your dumb fuck ass needs a goddamn lecture to understand at all. Holy fucking shit.
>>61605781 >Do you study music by any chance? In a sense yes. You will probably hear my music soon enough.
>>61606156 Yes, he later said that ambient can refer to different things depending on context, but his statement "It's retarded to think of ambient music as a non-electronic subgenre" is definitive. He wasn't referring to any specific context, he just went on and said "every form of ambient music", or at least that's what was implied.
>not using circular logic at all you retard. Okay. Whatever. What was your argument for saying ambient music can't be a non-electronic subgenre? Use whatever context you want.
Okay then, let's suppose it was a prescriptive statement (it didn't appear to be one, but it's fine). What's the argument for saying so boldly that ambient music can't be a non-electronic subgenre?
>The statement was retarded because it acts as if on one definition is correct when both are correct. Anyone with reading comprehension can understand what my post is illustrating with so called 'circular logic,' as it clearly elegantly summarizes the same ideas that your dumb fuck ass needs a goddamn lecture to understand at all. Just now you expressed your argument in a more orderly way. You are right, the meaning of the word depends on the context.
>>61606389 I guess we will never know why saying that ambient music being a non-electronic subgenre is a retarded thing to do on some specific contexts. Will this mystery ever be solved? We might never know...
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