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>"Jazz serves a cultural function...
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>"Jazz serves a cultural function in the music scene. It is a signifier for musical 'adulthood'. To embrace jazz is to don a kind of graduation cap, signifying a broadening of tastes outside 'mere' rock music. This ostentatious display of 'sophistication' is an insult, and I find the graduation cappers transparent and tedious. Certainly there must be interesting music one could call 'jazz'. There must be. I've never heard it, but I grant that it is out there somewhere. Jazz has a non-musical parallel: Christiania, the 'free' zone in Copenhagen. In Christiania, like in jazz, there is no law. People are left to their own inventions to create and act as they see fit. In Jazz, the musicians are allowed to improvise over and beside structural elements that may themselves be extemporaneous. Sounds good, doesn't it? Freedom — sounds good. The reality is much bleaker. Christiania is a squalid, trashy string of alleys with rag-and-bone men selling drugs, tie-dye and wretched food. Granted Total Freedom, and this is what they've chosen to do with it, sell hash and lentil soup? Jazz is similar. The results are so far beneath the conception that there is no English word for the disappointment one feels when forced to confront it. Granted Total Freedom, you've chosen to play II V I and blow a goddamn trill on the saxophone? Only by willfully ignoring its failings can one pretend to appreciate it as an idiom and don the cap."

B A S E D
A
S
E
D
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What is this bullshit

Pretty much everyone can appreciate something like Kind of Blue or Crescent
>>
He has about 7.6% understanding of what he's even saying
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>>61506974
disagreed but his opinions on shoegaze are absolutely B A S E D
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>>61506974
Jazz is a lamentable example of people zooming in on details to the point of losing the bigger picture. Under a microscope, even literal shit is entertaining. There is no way to convince a person that a correlation is not a causation. Every sequence of notes farted out by a jazz musician becomes a consciously crafted, improvised micro-composition if the listener *wants* to believe that there is a conscious composition in it.
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>>61507033
post
>>
>>61507050
In other words, jazz is musical glossolalia.
>>
>>61506974
>Granted Total Freedom, you've chosen to play II V I and blow a goddamn trill on the saxophone?
Yeah I don't think he's ever heard jazz in his life.
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>>61506974
Hahah. such a dumbass. This is why I hate Rockists. They think rock is somehow the default style and everything else just exists to be contrary to rock. It never dawns on them that there are plenty of people who don't give a shit about rock
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>>61507654
Hey I've seen these discussions a lot about rockism and popism, but what are they exactly?
>>
>>61507682
"rockism is essentially believed to treat rock music as normative"
from wikipedia. this is the definition I was going by
>>
there is literally nothing wrong with hash or lentil soup
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>>61506974
This is a strange tendency for those who view themselves as 'good writers' to almost trick themselves into having apparently willfully stupid opinions. It sounds like someone teased him for not getting jazz and he formed this view after the fact.
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>>61507812
'Getting jazz' is apophenia. It's willfully diluting one's definition of structure and composition and coherence for it to catch as much music/'music' as possible.
>>
if you think Christiania is "total freedom" you're fucking retarded anyway.
>>
>>61508008
In other words, jazz does not 'sound all the same' the way 'F fggfff ggf fgfgggffgg!' and 'Fgffgffgg fgfg, ffgggfg!' are two different poems. True -- and on any level that's not blinded to the broader context, irrelevant.
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>>61506974
>>61507050
>>61507118
>>61508008
>>61508047
this pseudointellectualism lmao
>>
>>61508008
>>61508047
>inb4 you need to listen to more jazz to understand

That's like developing a floor tile fetish, literally autistic. Sure there are minute differences between a 'GOAT jazz pianist' doing his tinkling on one record and the other, which can be 'discussed' in terms of how they 'fit' the purported mood and structure of the piece in question better. But it's a waste of time, a musical dead end, musical schizophrenia whereby one just chooses to dwell on and 'understand' the nature of a piece in which there's nothing to understand in the first place, hardly a conscious decision even involved. It is really no wonder that it is niggers' music, with their low IQ.
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>>61508095
i feel nothing but pity for you
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>>61508112
>>61508058
I don't like scams, I hate scams which I am supposed to pay for, and I despise scams people are trying to convince me are art.
>>
Atomizer is better.
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>>61508125
(Because every time a scam is called art, it devalues the term 'art' that should refer to things that take skill, leaving skilled creators of those things unjustly underappreciated.)
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>>61508125
>paying for music
>caring whether something is art or not
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>>61508134
better than any jazz record at least
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There are exceptions, but I agree most Jazz is garbage.
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>>61508162
>>61508159
>>61508138
any of you ever heard of the dunning-kruger effect? you're all examples of it
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>>61508155
>>caring whether something is art or not

I do care when jazz crap is put on, or, more often, above the level of

https://youtube.com/watch?v=UwhS0htex9Q
https://youtube.com/watch?v=O_M-Lw4_Bfo
https://youtube.com/watch?v=EYO_p5nUX0g
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>>61508177
but jazz is way better than corny prog
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>>61508162
Most music is garbage so thank you for your valuable input
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>>61508177
now i feel something far beyond pity for you
>>
>all the butthurt people offending him personally
If you disagree, how about you you actually criticize what he is saying
But then again, I don't expect any worthwhile discussion from you guys
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>>61508194
>But then again, I don't expect any worthwhile discussion from you guys
Do you know why he records in analog?
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>>61508194
he's wrong in his opinion, but he's also a huge faggot who has never been involved with anything worth a condom full of shit
it's possible to be both
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>>61508215
>he's also a huge faggot who has never been involved with anything worth a condom full of shit
Rapeman was ok
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>>61508194
>actually criticise what he is saying

No reason to as there is no actual merit to what he is saying
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>>61508215
How can an opinion be wrong?
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>>61508177
>>61508138
>>61508138
>>61508125
>>61508047
icycalm?
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>>61508257
I have no idea who this is.
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>>61508221
>>61508230
steve albini has no talent, he's given total freedom and all he does is yell over static and be a shitty meme producer
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>>61508263
you write EXACTLY like him, down to the double dashes

minor 4chan esp. /lit/ meme whose writings primarily focus on video games and philosophy, but also on music, film, pick-up artistry, and more
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>>61506974
He has a poor understanding of the genre.
Jazz can be written and composed to a T and still be Jazz.
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>>61506974
>jazz = free improv

ayy lmao. rap is just niggers doing crack - absolutly disguistng
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>>61508194
>>61508230

He doesn't say "this is my opinion". He makes a claim that people who like jazz above, or even just in addition to rock music are merely pretending to seem more sophisticated. This is stupid on it face for the simple reason that Jazz music has existed longer than rock music. One can easily imagine that people criticized early Jazz fans in the opposite way, say they are merely pretending to like this 'music' as a desperate clinging to youth or it's transgressive associations with black culture and drug culture.
Even if that were not the case, you can still imagine that there are many people who like Jazz that haven't even heard much rock music, or are small children, so the idea of them having some kind of reactionary Jazz taste, is a little absurd.

To be fair he does qualify his whole paragraph, with "In the music scene", whatever that means. But it is quite clear that he simply can't get his head around the idea that people can have different tastes and one can't prove by algebra who is right and who is a poser.
>>
>Granted Total Freedom, you've chosen to play II V I and blow a goddamn trill on the saxophone?

>Within the relative freedom that rock offers you've chosen to play a 4/4 drum beat and I-IV-V?
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>>61506974
the guy is obviously assblasted because jazz is seen as adult music and rock/metal as kids music.
>>
>>61508384
Literally every definition of jazz relies on arbitrary pleading. 'It is a supreme form of music because it's spontaneous/soulful/feelful/intimate/changing/direct/adapting/undescribable/undefinable/"polyphonic"/...'. Asked 'why does that make the music supreme', the definition says 'Because.'. When I listen to jazz records being touted as the masterpieces of the genre, I hear a couple of instruments playing along that avoid being dissonant just enough to make claims of the piece being a masterpiece unfalsifiable. When I watch people who listen to it, I see white people whipped by the society into declaring appreciation and conceding complexity of a genre of 'unprivileged' artists.
>>
So is he voting for Trump?
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>>61508513
albini is a liberal, despite what you can assume
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>>61508510
>The definition of Jazz is "a supreme form of music because it's spontaneous/soulful/feelful/intimate/changing/direct/adapting/undescribable/undefinable/"polyphonic"/"
Okay, Albini.
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>>61508552
I am citing many different definitions.
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>>61508560
you haven't cited a single source you pseudointellectual
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>>61508560
Jazz
American music developed especially from ragtime and blues and characterized by propulsive syncopated rhythms, polyphonic ensemble playing, varying degrees of improvisation, and often deliberate distortions of pitch and timbre.
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>>61508510
it's probably because the bar is so low. i mean jazz is obviously superior to metal/rock (all sounds the same), hip hop (just 8 sec loops of jazz tunes) and all forms of pop/dance music.
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>>61508574
Jesus Christ. What do you expect me to do, quote all 15 pages I browsed to compile that line?

>>61508510
In other words, to paraphrase: jazz is a joke, anyone could do what jazz 'musicians' are doing, but most people have the courtesy not to. I'm just glad that I dodged the bullet. A couple of years ago, when I hadn't yet looked into prog and subgenres, I would probably enjoy jazz; now I have grown out of the danger of doing so.
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>>61508625
>Jesus Christ. What do you expect me to do, quote all 15 pages I browsed to compile that line?
yep, you don't have to do harvard style or anything, just paste the links
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>>61508560
And you (I'm assuming this is another Albini quote) say all those definitions are something like what I greentexted, which is just demonstrably factually wrong.

What 'arbitrary pleading' is there here:

1.
a type of music of black American origin characterized by improvisation, syncopation, and usually a regular or forceful rhythm, emerging at the beginning of the 20th century. Brass and woodwind instruments and piano are particularly associated with jazz, although guitar and occasionally violin are also used; styles include Dixieland, swing, bebop, and free jazz.
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>>61508625
prog is boring compared to jazz doe.

jazz is what prog wants to be but fails imho
>>
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>>61506974
>>61507050
>>61507118
>>61508008
>>61508047
>>61508095
>>61508162
>>61508510
>>61508560
>>61508625

are these posters underage or just trolling?

i'm surprised there are so many people who cannot understand the appeal of jazz. I can't speak for everyone, but my experience with jazz has been positive as both a listener and a musician. I don't claim it to be superior than any other kind of music, although i do have my opinions.

At a fundamental level, I enjoy jazz because of how it sounds. this is true for any music most people like.

Jazz is enjoyable for me also because I like hearing how the musicians themselves interact with each other through improvisation. Good jazz music features musicians that can freely harmonize and progress with each other, just by knowing each other's musical pockets and playstyle. usually jazz music has a very loose feel to it which is hard to emulate in non-improvisational music.

as you get deeper into more improvisational, freer jazz, it's analogous to noise music, which brings my point back to it literally just sounding good. what sounds good to you might not sound good to me and vice versa.

i come from a family of various musical artists, some jazz, classical, rock. my dad is a black metal guitarist and my grandfather was a saxophonist who has played alongside some big names in bebop. i'm not trying to pick sides. i just can't see why an entire group of people would choose to disregard a genre of music that literally invented the musical styles they likely enjoy (rock).
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>>61508625
In fact, I am relistening to top albums of [1] just now. [2] just left me cold, but [3] actually made me crack a smile, it is so incoherent. A couple of black 'musicians' who have managed to remember a piece of a tune and so now they insert it whenever they sense a opportunity. Again, as befits IQs of 85.

[1] http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/
[2] https://youtube.com/watch?v=kbxtYqA6ypM
[3] https://youtube.com/watch?v=zFA0FYQo0Gg
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>>61508697
thats nutin. listen to sun ra atlantis (the title track) it's hailed as a masterpiece btw
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>>61508717
Sure. Just give me ten minutes, I need to re-Firth of Fifth myself.
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>>61508722
>>61508717
>sun ra atlantis (the title track) it's hailed as a masterpiece btw

https://youtube.com/watch?v=TDdsjduZdUs

>Allmusic [five stars]
>a masterpiece that twists and turns through many soundscapes
>the sonic churnings and juxtaposed images reveal a brilliant display of textures and tonalities set against an ocean of occasional rhythms

I see. Thanks for broadening my horizons, anon.
>>
>>61508697
>>61508809
In short, I guess jazz's motto should be, 'you gonna get musically enriched'.
>>
What rockists like Steve Albini don't understand is that in a good jazz ensemble every member is equally important, that part of what makes jazz fascinating, the interaction between the members and the role each of them plays

Name one rock band where each member is truly equally important

The average white man doesn't understand egalitarianism
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>>61508722
>>61508697
imagine being this guy

i wouldnt have to think twice before offing myself
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>>61508835
'It's not failure to assign meaningful flow of spotlight across the whole piece so to evoke a coherent mood or relate a story, it's egalitarianism!'
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>>61508809
>>61508817
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SsBtfuSDxw

you just dont get jazz, do you
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>>61508835
I can think of at least a billion
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>>61508857
>meaningful flow of spotlight

At this point I have to assume you have some kind of mental deficiency

Each member is equally important - not necessarily equally important/present throughout an entire piece

When the bass or drums get the spotlight (for an extended period of time, not just a brief lick or fill) in a rock song it almost always sounds forced
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>>61508885
and yet you can't name one
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>>61508907
>not necessarily equally important/present throughout an entire piece

Except that's pretty much the condition of all jazz pieces I've heard. A tapestry with no variety at all, as if the 'musicians' just had two modes, 'play relatively little' and 'play relatively much'. Which is probably true.
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>>61508956
>of all jazz pieces

Albums, in fact.
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>>61508956
yea this has been fun and all but ive got a shit ton of uni work to do so ima bounce, have fun with your shitty symph prog you autist
>>
>>61508920
Well now I don't want 2 -________-
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>>61508661
>listens to prog once
>>
Why are the jazz fans of today such insufferable cunts? I don't think I've ever met a jazz fan under 70 who hadn't been justifiably bullied at some point
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>>61508835
Lmao drums are mixed lower than the sax 100% of the time.
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>>61509014
and what point are you reaching to infer from that?
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>>61508956
>>61508967
In short, here is a linguistic analogy.

dissonance/consonance = grammar
composition = story and style

A jazz piece might be grammatically valid, but it will be just an unvaried string of words, like a child would write: 'I went to school and then I met Tim and he said that he met Alex yesterday and then we went to...'. It is correct; it doesn't offend; but there is just one level, it is just a serial spaghetti of isolated phrases. There is no variety across many levels, no emphasis, no references, no suspense, no nothing. A crude analog of mine of a real musical piece could be, off the top of my head, 'Having, choosing no sooner so to do so than the effects were already known, told him of the story, he proceeded to undo it that same very evening.' Jazz is just not on the same level.
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>>61509034
>inb4 you criticize the analog as being bad English

I know it's bad English; you know this is not the point. The point is the whole analogy.
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>>61509034
are you..... ok?
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>>61508697
those albums are overrated as fuck and Miles Davis is a wife-beating drug addict

listen to A Love Supreme, also >>61508717
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>>61509034
>Jazz is just not on the same level.
hahahahahahaha as what?
rock?!
>>
>>61509059
>listen to A Love Supreme

I just did. As a matter of fact, it prompted >>61509034.
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>>61506974
>In jazz, there is no law.

So free jazz is indistinguishable from normal jazz?
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>>61509031
That whoever mixed it doesn't want you to listen to the drums as much as they want you to listen to the sax.
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>>61509064
Best jazz is probably above average rock, but miles below best rock.
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>>61506974
He's not wrong when he says the genre is used by certain people as a status symbol as opposed to a source of
enjoyment, and to be fair, he does give jazz the benefit of the song, but overall I think it's a matter of simply it not being his preference (he's really said as much)
Albini had understandable opinions on things but feels the need to state them in very outspoken and dissenting way, so it's always good to take what he says with a grain of salt
>>
>>61509084
this is what rockists actually believe
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>>61509084
>rock
>basic guitar riffs
>mostly just playing/singing the chord progression

>jazz
>often lyrical, long melodies
>substitutes chords often to increase variety of the music

You're a fucking moron. Are you even a musician?
>>
>>61509084
rockists are the scourge of music, i am being 100% serious, its cool to experiment outside of guitar sounds you know
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>>61509117
how much rock music have you listened to?
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>>61506974
steve albini is jazz


pretentious, full of himself, sounds horrible
overly self involved, chronic masturbator
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>>61509132
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Didn't answer my question about whether you are a musician.

TMR is a bunch of very normal, tonal riffs mashed together to sound dissonant. It is not the same as creating a single improvised line that darts between several chords and affects.

In fact, TMR's songs have VERY few chords in them and the melody in guitars/vocals are almost entirely dictated by the chord progression.
>>
>>61509158
... the plot thickens
>>
>>61509165
yet it sounds infinitely better than any jazz album, how does that work?
>>
steve albini is basically reddit: the person
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>>61509186
Are you a musician or not?
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>>61507004
It's a copypasta
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>>61509165
>>61509195
As you can tell from capitalization, the person you're talking to is not me.

That said, I'm not, and I couldn't care less for the opinion of people whose opinion that admission would influence.
>>
Jazz fans being twats is a universal law, its what Whiplash was about. Bunch of pretentious thundercunts acting superior to everyone around them over something that sounds awful and no one else gives a shit about.

Jazz fan: "ooh have you heard John Coltrane isnt it fantastic why arent you worshipping the ground I walk on"

*jazz fan begins masturbating in public thinking about himself*

Normal Guy (me) "lol who gives a shit this music is lame and heartless and any valid ideas created by it have been coopted and improved by better genres" *beats up jazz fan and humiliates him in front of women that then spit on his broken and crying body*

(The jazz fans broken body is a metaphor for jazz as an art form)
>>
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>>61508697
>>61508722
>Shits on jazz
>Likes shitty memeprog
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>>61509226
If a person isn't a musician but they are trying to claim that for reasons relating to the way both genres are composed that one is better than the other, it's incredibly ignorant and pretentious.

If you don't know how something works, then don't talk about that shit.
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>>61509230
>Bunch of pretentious thundercunts acting superior to everyone around them over something that sounds awful and no one else gives a shit about.

This can be applied to music fans from across the spectrum - leaving "something that sounds awful" aside because that's just your immature, uninformed opinion
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>>61509230
It sure is fun being 14 on the internet, isn't. Treasure these days, friend.
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>>61509230
Autism: the post
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>>61509269
>>61509276
>>61509289

I jacked off into your trumpets
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>>61509117
>>substitutes chords often to increase variety of the music

It's pretty easy to self-absorbedly do that from time to time if expectations from the piece are non-existent to begin with. As a matter of fact, I am disappointed by repetition in *some* rock I listen to, but this occasional minor disappointment is insignificant in the face of variety from part to part of a piece, from piece to piece of an album, from album to album of an artist... from artist to artist in a genre. But jazz musicians focus on chords because they lack the imagination to conceive and diversity a piece in broader terms like that. They are like human calculators who can't do math and only can do arithmetic.
>>
Blacks have pretty much and paved the way for every popular genre (minus shitty country and classical, obviously) Prove me wrong non musicians
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>>61509306
Indie folk
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>>61509302
>But jazz musicians focus on chords because they lack the imagination to conceive and diversity a piece in broader terms like that.
No: they focus on chords because that's what music is made out of you fucking idiot.
Are you one of those fucking "muh timbre" kidddies?
If so, get an education because spectral jazz music exists too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daLoh9RwkY8
>>
>>61509306
industrial
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>>61509330
>popular genre
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>>61509306
The origins of blues are partly in old British folk songs.
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>>61509306
ambient
>>
>>61509306

>"popular"
>good

only art music is worth listening to which has almost no black involvement
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>>61509340
...but mostly in black spirituals you idiot
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>>61509306
the white man invented classical and folk music, pretty much every other genre is a derivation of these two, hence the white man invented music
>>
Jazz is only good when made by Ethiopians
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>>61509302
Not all jazz relies on chords. From about the late 50s and early 60s onwards, the avant, modal, free, and other scenes depended entirely on eschewing conventional chord structures and progressions
>>
>>61509342
Eno's biggest inspiration for his ambient stuff was this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duwZMQyeY8s
>>
>>61508687
I agree anon. I personally as a musician genuinely enjoy jazz music. I love how spontaneous it is, how complex it can be, how it can range from serene and beautiful to chaotic, claustrophobic and noisy. I also really love hearing musicians working together, listening to each other play, actually working as a team and not just a group of individuals.
I also listen to all sorts of metal and rock, a small amount of electronic music, and very tiny doses of hip hop, but I still love all these genres, although rock, metal and jazz hold a strong place in my heart. I wish to one day be a competent enough musician to be able to play the complex chord changes that Coltrane did on his Giant Steps album. Or be able to spontaneously improvise and create a masterpiece, like the musicians on Bitches Brew did. Or play in a more calculated manner, more composed, but yet still retaining that sense of fluidity, like The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady. Alas, one can dream. I'll stick with playing riffs and power chords for now.
>>
>>61509306
(You): the post
>>
>>61509365
Ethiopian jazz is pretty great
>>
>>61509350
>The white man invented [...] folk music

Not true, by the way.
>>
>>61509306
oops, created*

non musician responses have not yet been worthy to warrant a response.
>>
>>61509350
Black people had folk music too y'know
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>>61509370
holy shit blacks invented ambient too

whitey btfo!
>>
>>61509324
>>61509369
>eschewing conventional chord structures and progressions

That makes it even worse. The standards have been lowered even more, the entry barrier removed completely.
>>
>>61509431
I mean, rock music is based almost entirely on chords or riffs
I don't see how the use of chords (or lack thereof) makes the music any less worthy of merit
>>
>>61509431
Wait what?
Are you saying 4 chord songs are the highest form of art or something?
>>
>>61509431
>Using chords is bad
>Eschewing chords is even worse

What the fuck do you want?
>>
>>61509370
>implying eno invented ambient

pls
>>
>>61509397
yeah, after white people
>>
>>61509492
Objectively false tho
>>
>>61509453
>>61509454
>>61509448
It means that one more criterion for judgement of quality has been removed out of the way of jazz pseudomusicians. Instead of identifying enjoyable patterns, such as, but not limited to, of tones, with more and more accuracy, in terms of longer and longer and more and more structurally diverse units, the society is telling people that 'chaos' and 'noise' (>>61509377's words) are arbitrarily fine as well. It's the equivalent of telling people that poetry doesn't need to rhyme or alliterate or have syllabic patterns. Lowering the standards.
>>
Dr. Henry van Dyke
>"As I understand it, it is not music at all. It is merely an irritation of the nerves of hearing, a sensual teasing of the strings of physical passion. Its fault lies not in syncopation, for that is a legitimate device when sparingly used. But 'jazz' is an unmitigated cacophony, a combination of disagreeable sounds in complicated discords, a willful ugliness and a deliberate vulgarity."
Anne Shaw Faulkner, head of the Music
Department of the General Federation of Women's Clubs.
>"A number of scientific men who have been working on experiments in musico-therapy with the insane, declare that while regular rhythms and simple tones produce a quieting effect on the brain of even a violent patient, the effect of jazz on the normal brain produces an atrophied condition on the brain cells of conception, until very frequently those under the demoralizing influence of the persistent use of syncopation, combined with inharmonic partial tones, are actually incapable of distinguishing between good and evil, right and wrong."

Yet people in this thread still defend Jazz.
>>
>>61509523
But beethoven invented music in 1910??
>>
>>61509523
prove it
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAn2PQlgmtg

what did he mean by this
>>
>>61509526
In other words, instead of embracing chords as a way to construct units, co-occurrent or not, that correspond to each other in more and more ways, which are variations of each other in more and more different ways, eschewing them leads to cessation of pursuit of ways to diversify a piece altogether, resulting in incoherent mashing.
>>
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>>61509492
Are you retarded? African folk music was around way before European folk music.
>>
>>61509558
West African storytelling traditions that continue to this day
>>
>>61506974
as usual, albini continues to make people get butthurt
>>
>>61509534
yeah, and people used to think tritones were the devil's music

what point are you trying to make you child
>>
>>61509464
Who invented it then?
>>
>>61509526
>enjoyable patterns
But you criticized jazz for using chord progressions and working within a tonality. I mean, over the history of the genre, several different variations were developed on the musical origins of the genre, and musicians were able to create and identify certain harmonies which worked for them, and created an environ of variation and interaction through soloing and ensemble improvisation. Later on, this interaction went to the extreme when musicians were encouraged to start working outside the bounds of structure, and play based on what they heard instead of what was formally annotated. The latter case is simply a more extreme of the former

Oh, and your argument is a contradictory one. You can't have your chord cake and eat it too
>>
>>61509558
Hmmm maybe because
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Eastern_and_North_African_music_traditions

also consider that Europe only got their instruments because of the Crusades
>>
>>61509564
WE WUZ FOLK MUZIK AND SHEEEIT
>>
>>61509578
Miles Davis
>>
>>61509526
You don't listen to Jazz do you?
>>
>>61509578
Steve Reich
>>
>>61509585
>>>/pol/
>>
>>61509585
I'm sure you think this is a valid argument in some way. I'm also sure your father wants you dead
>>
>>61509578
Satie you fucking mongoloid
>>
>>61509611
AND KANGZ
>>
>>61509608
Kill yourself idiot.
>>
>>61509580
>But you criticized jazz for using chord progressions and working within a tonality.

What? No. Not at all. That's a fucking strawman. What I said, in >>61509302, in that improvised ad hoc chord alterations are only a thing in jazz because jazz musicians are preoccupied with their own instruments, while the pretense of 'listening to other musicians is the band' is false and farcical because jazz is expected not to display instrumental coherence, with every musician largely doing his own isolated thing. So everything flies. I also said that rock musicians might not be bothered to compose perfectly diversified songs because their time is better invested in researching and testing other, higher-level ideas.
>>
>>61509628
hey fuck you idiot
>>
>>61509631
Do you listen to Jazz? I don't think you do.
>>
>>61509573
That jazz is for violent morons. For instance, a smart person would refute an argument; you, instead, openly admit to not understanding a clear argument and in your short attention span can only think to throw out a "you're a child" ad hominem. Maybe if you didn't listen to devil music your attention span would be longer.
>>
>>61509641
I explained the psychology of 'no, you're wrong, it doesn't all sound the same' in my first posts ITT. Sure it doesn't sound all the same, but the variation is below the threshold worth my time.
>>
>>61509561
But that's precisely what jazz musicians utilize chords for.
There are turnarounds and changes within the overall harmony, and interaction of said harmony with the soloist (such as in comping) that introduce that element of unpredictability and variation within the music. It's a different musical vernacular, that functions upon the communication of the members of the ensemble as opposed to the rigid nature of composition (if we are ignoring swing and classical jazz, that is)
>>
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>>61509585
>>61509620
>>
>>61509644
>a clear argument

You just posted 2 dated, irrelevant quotes, you didn't make an argument
>>
>>61509655
Name some Jazz albums you have heard.
The statements you are making are completely uncharacteristic of Jazz so I cannot believe that you are being honest.
>>
>>61509644
Not that poster, but you are retarded. I bet you're literally googling "arguments against jazz" Do you even understand what you're posting? Do you even ply an instrument? Clearly not.
>>
>>61509608
Minimalism

>>61509613
Impressionism
>>
"Also he seems like a total fucking prick in every interview I have ever read with him. Like one of those a-holes who acts like he’s having a bad time at the party, but rather than leave the party, dude just hovers around radiating bad vibes.".[1][2](On Steve Albini)
>>
>>61509666
>listens to devil music
>gets devil's trips
I think it's quite clear what your defending is evil.
>>
>>61509674
Piano, bass, and clarinet.
>>
>>61509585
>Literally chimping out

/pol/tards everyone.
>>
>>61509675
No, Satie made "furniture music" which is the exact same thing as Ambient.
Certainly the same as what Eno was doing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Xm7s9eGxU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d81G9W8pEno
>>
>>61509670
Would you remember the names of teen pop albums you have heard?

I sampled some of those Miles and Coltrane guys, probably ten or so more. You can assume I listened to the top five jazz albums on some list. More than I should have.
>>
>>61509678
i googled and that seems to be steve albini talking about frank zappa
>>
>>61509703
So what you are saying is that you have a thorough understanding of a genre, and why it's bad; but you can't even name the albums you have listened to?

How old are you?
>>
>>61509631
But there's a clear distinction between an ensemble that interacts and one that is made up of people simply "doing their own thing".
Jazz certainly has coherence, and it is incredibly rare that any piece abandons structure, melody, harmony, and rhythm completely. The "ad-hoc" variations you mention are usually carefully crafted to introduce some dissonance (and the inevitable resolution), and maintain interest within what otherwise might be an entirely static harmony. If musicians didn't play together, and simply did their own thing, that structure of building musical motifs from within the structure of the song would fall apart.

Also, to say jazz lacks variety is an entirely misinformed and somewhat inane opinion, and I feel like you lack both the authority and the experience to compare these two genres so freely
>>
>>61509699
>The concept of background or furniture music had already existed some time before, but only in the 70s was ambient music first created.
>>
>>61509736
Since you think they are different, explain the difference between ambient and furniture music.
>>
>>61509703
So you've sampled a small bit of an incredibly niche and overexposed part of the jazz canon?

Sure gives me assurance that your argument is a strong one
>>
>>61509578
drone and ambient are fuckin old as fuck. they are a part of folk music. just look at all dem traditional drone/ambient instruments.
>>
>>61509710
>what you are saying is that you have a thorough understanding of a genre

No, nor do I need to. I don't need to understand histology to be able to tell that skin-picking is a shitty thing to do, or number theory to understand that arithmomania is a shitty thing to do. Jazz is to music is what 'philosophy' is to thinking. It is the catch-all bag into which falls everything that fails stricter standards. If a piece of thinking fails to display logical coherence or falsifiability or predictive power or employ strict definitions, it becomes 'philosophy' by default -- pointless discussion about concepts. If a collection of sounds fails to fulfill instrumental or structural standards for a genre, it becomes jazz by default -- a pointless, variation-less compilation as well. Jazz is everything that displays no better aspirations.
>>
>>61509764
Well there are drone elements in folk music and some classical music from medieval times but those were background elements in the overall song. It's not like the drone was the primary musical element.
>>61509775
Why are you talking about something you don't understand?
Your paragraph is meaningless.
>>
>>61509755
I more than once and more than twice looked up >jazz masterpieces, >best jazz records, and so on. What the fuck else do you expect me to have done? >TRUE jazz masterpieces? >TRUE best jazz records? If I listen to purportedly best things a genre has to offer and it's still shit, why on Earth should I keep digging?
>>
>>61509748
The only similarity that it has with ambient music is that both are intended to be listened to in the background. It may have influenced ambient theoretically, but musically speaking, ambient music has a unique features that's putting an emphasis on tone and atmosphere over traditional musical structure or rhythm.
>>
>>61509775
>Jazz is everything that displays no better aspirations.

(Which is, incidentally, the very reason that it is 'difficult to define' -- just like 'philosophy' is 'difficult to define'. You can't define something that just collects musical dregs from every single other genre.)
>>
>>61509791
you have no idea. traditionar tibetan music instruments like singing bowls, bone trumpets and stone percusions were used to create ambient music. specifficly for meditation and shit. thats just one example
>>
>>61509797
You can't name the albums so clearly you either 1) didn't listen to them and are b8ing 2) listened to them in the background between /mu/core.
>>61509812
Gymnopedies has importance on tone and atmosphere too though...
I think you're trying to make Satie seem more sophisticated than he was.
>>
>>61506974
lol fuck him i dont care what he thinks about jazz i like it anyway but why talk about christiania when he obviously hasn't got a clue of what he's talking about

sure they aren't as free as the proclaim but its still a chill ass place
>>
>>61509764
>>61509820
Background music ≠ Ambient
>>
>>61509775
>philosophy has no logical coherence
>what is metaphysics
>what is modal logic
>what is political/scientific philosophy

Aside from that, you still maintain that jazz has no structure, as if it was some wild abandonment of music as a whole. There are still melodies, rhythm, and harmony. Many pieces had been created that have been carefully composed and geared towards a certain purpose (Rhapsody In Blue, Black, Brown, And Beige, etc.), and to throw all of this aside because of a flawed understanding of the musical language of a small portion of such a gargantuan genre is simply foolish. If you've tried it and simply don't enjoy it, state that. Otherwise, any overarching statements you make are bound to be scrutinized
>>
>>61509837
>Gymnopedies has importance on tone and atmosphere too though...

Arguable, but it still relies on a structure and rhythm (3/4).
>>
>>61509797
Because those are albums that are culminations of years of development
You don't have to like jazz, that's fine, but disparaging it based on such a limited knowledge is simply wrong
>>
I fucking hate this board so much
>>
>>61509888
Well then what about his Gnossienes then? They don't have barlines at all.
>>
>>61509853
ambient literally means background
>>
I'm gonna listen to some jazz, is this a good place to start?

http://www.scaruffi.com/jazz/best100.html
>>
>>61509902
me too
I wish there was somewhere else but in the meantime we'll have teenagers typing paragraphs about how they listened to Bitches Brew one time and didn't get it
>>
I think we can all agree that blacks should keep being Entertainers (with their chucking and jiving and amusing outbursts) and stay away from trying to create any kind of high art :)
>>
>>61509921
That album is awful tho
>>
>>61509657
>functions upon the communication of the members of the ensemble as opposed to the rigid nature of composition
>>61509732
>ensemble that interacts
>>61509732
>jazz certainly has coherence
>>61509732
>carefully crafted
>>61509732
>resolution
>>61509732
>maintain interest
>>61509732
>play together
>>61509732
>structure of building musical motifs from within the structure of the song
>>61509880
>carefully composed and geared towards a certain purpose

And this is, again, just pure pareidolia. You are hearing 'coherence', but it is vague and haphazard. Like seeing shapes in a Pollock painting. It is pleasant, but unrewarding. Jazz is deliberately limiting itself to performance in which musicians can't make a trainwreck out of the piece anyway, no matter what alterations come to their mind. They are literally playing it safe.


>>61509880
>a small portion of such a gargantuan genre
>>61509901
>a limited knowledge

What a fucking cop-out. 'Nuh uh, just listen to more of it.' You're going to repeat this forever.

>>61509880
>you still maintain that jazz has no structure, as if it was some wild abandonment of music as a whole

Second glaring strawman of yours. I am forced to conclude they are intentional at this point.
>>
top thread guise... top thread
>>
>>61509921
>>61509942
I don't dislike Bitches Brew but that period of Miles is kind of shaky on an ethical ground for me, mainly for the fact that he didn't want to be obsolete in the face of rock and funk music, and was clearly simply trying to reach a wide audience
>>
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>>61509920
people will get mad at me for posting it but this chart is legitimately helpful for finding some of the more essential pieces from the forefront genres
>>
>>61509917
rock literally means a rock
>>
>>61509204
who cares its still an existing opinion
>>
>>61509880
Also, way to misunderstand my point about 'philosophy'. If a field of inquiry has an own name, such as logic or philosophy of science, then it is, well, not philosophy in general, but that very field. Similarly, if a music accomplishes something within a standard for a genre, such as rock or folk or whatever, it is not jazz. Jazz is meaningless collages just like 'philosophy' in itself is meaningless questions such as 'what is the nature of reality?' or 'what is the nature of concepts?'.
>>
>>61509908
But it's not intended as background music. If we follow your point, free jazz and indeterminacy are ambient music too. I acknowledge the influence of Satie, but he's not really "ambient music."
>>
>>61509965
how in the fuck is mingus ah um avant garde jazz?
>>
>>61509958
I like it. It was the first jazz album I heard though, and if someone's first album in a genre is as dense and unique as that, they might have a tendency to blow the rest of the genre out of proportion.
>>
>>61509917
Ballet music is ambient too?
>>
>>61509970
so whats the difference between ambient music and background music?
>>
>>61509991
Not sure. Jtg might have thought Mingus = avant-garde jazz and nothing else, even though that album and a few others like Blues & Roots are pretty far from avant-garde. It would have made more sense for him to put something like Black Saint & The Sinner Lady or Let My Children Hear Music.
>>
>>61509965
Everything from bebob down is trash
>>
>>61509965
>recommends smoking cannabis while listening

Makes sense. Jazz definitely requires this kind of aid.
>>
>>61510032
*dips fedora*
>>
>>61510007
is the caretaker ambient? i think it is
>>
ITT: jazzfags absolutely BTFO
>>
>>61510028
Background music is simply all music intented to be passively listened to. Ambient music, besides being made so it can be listened to at any level of attention, puts an emphasis on tone and atmosphere over traditional musical structure or rhythm, something that's not present on other forms of background music.
>>
>>61510051
>implying jazz isnt the most fedora of all music genres outside of folk metal
>implying jazz fans aren't the only people that wear a fedora irl
>>
>>61509958
Nah man it's a great album. There's nothing wrong with seeing the culture shift and then wanting to be a part of it.
>>
>>61509978
>But it's not intended as background music.
Furniture music, or in French musique d’ameublement (sometimes more literally translated as furnishing music), is background music originally played by live performers. The term was coined by Erik Satie in 1917.

fuck off
>>61510066
whatever you want to believe kid
>>
>>61509946
I just want this argument to be over, so here are my final responses:

>first point
The patterns and structures of jazz are honestly are everything but vague or haphazard. Many standards and originals follow similar progressions and song structure, and it is entirely the choice of the player as to what they do within that space. The "reward" of the experience is honestly rather subjective, but I can say that if you can't understand how a jazz fan could derive pleasure from the genre, then you may need to revise your view

>the musicians can't make a trainwreck
This is entirely wrong. As a soloist or a member of a group, you're walking on eggshells most of the time. As someone who has played in several jazz bands and orchestras, the failure of any one member can bring the whole unit of the band crashing down. Why do you think there's the distinction between good/bad soloists and jazz musicians?

Also, I'm saying that you're basing your opinions on the form of jazz on a casual listening of an era when jazz was moving away from its conventional forms. If I wanted to get into rock music and listened to TMR and Faust first, and then made overarching statements about how the genre was terrible, you would say the exact same thing.

As for the straw man, you basically stated as much so I don't see how that was exactly a strawman. Anyway, let's just finish this because I've become bored of repeating the same retorts in response to the same arguments
>>
>>61510109
The Gympnopédies and Gnossienes aren't part of his furniture music series.
>>
>>61510139
TIL
that's weird
that being said furniture music is intended as background music
>>
>>61510122
>how a jazz fan could derive pleasure from the genre

I can definitely understand it, the way I can understand why people read tabloids or follow celebrities. It's simplistic and unchallenging.
>>
Rock music is objectively worse than Jazz.

>simplistic chord progressions
>basic solos without any sense of independent musical thought
>simplistic melodies sticking to the safest of chord tones
>often focuses on "muh timbre" rather than musical quality

Rockists are the absolute worst shits on this board.
>>
>>61509946
>I lost all my arguments so I'm gonna say everything he says is "~le illusion~"

You're still giving attention to this retard?
>>
>>61510187
Just out of curiosity
What are your top 5 albums ever made? I want to see from what perspective you're approaching this
>>
>>61510246
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tea9hGYEEO4
>>
everyone getting memed on
>>
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are people here trolling or
i can't tell
>>
>>61510208
are you mad that rock music actually has interesting sounding timbres and many of them thanks to many effects pedals etc whereas jazz instruments always sound like wet farts?
>>
>>61510309
Who even cares about timbres? Just little shits who don't know anything about music.
>>
>>61510246
Slint - Spiderland
Jesus Lizard - Goat
Big Black - Atomizer
Suicide - Suicide
Nirvana - In Utero
>>
>>61510208
Meanwhile jazz

>dead art form
>only listened to so people can feel smart
>that doesn't work
>>
>>61510326
>who even cares about how the music sounds
>>
>>61510339
>dead art form
Teenagers, everyone.
>>
>>61510308
Some troll retard using pedantism and fallacies ad hoc to attack jazz and people giving him attention.
>>
SUCC
>>
>>61510346
Those are chords, kid.
>>
>>61510352
Yep, this is how it is every jazz thread that isn't a general
>>
>>61510352
if only regular jazz threads got this many replies
>>
>>61510351
No one gives a shit about jazz

It's why whiplash is a comedy and not a drama film
>>
>>61510332
>Muh riffs repeated ad hoc are better than jazz

This is who we're arguing with?

>>61510339
>Dead art form

Same could be said for rock.

>Only listened to so people can feel smart
>That doesn't work

Prove it.
>>
>>61510392
>No one
*muh pitchfork/billboard publications
>>
>>61510399
>This is who we're arguing with?

u missed the joke, was pretending the person being retarded itt was steve albini, those are some of his favourites
>>
>>61507050
The small details are no less important than the big picture, and sometimes losing sight of all the little things can be a tragedy
>>
>>61510399
>Suicide
>riffs

lmao this idiot
>>
>>61510399
>This is who we're arguing with?

My reply was >>61510263.

Of the bands in >>61510332, I only recognize Nirvana, to a song by whom I only first listened a couple of months ago, and I didn't find it music.
>>
>>61510430
In Utero wasn't his favorite.
>>
>>61510399
>Prove it.
>>61510399
>>
>>61510451
>and I didn't find it music.
Why is it not music?
>>
>>61510485
Honestly I don't even remember the name of the song.
>>
>>61510051
Fedora's are a jazz fashion staple, Just as mohawks and leather jackets are to punk. But memes.
>>
>>61510492
So it's not music because you don't remember it?

I don't remember Mahler, so I guess that's not music either?
>>
>>61510510
>So it's not music because you don't remember it?

No. It's not music AND I don't remember it. Don't insert causations where you see them.
>>
>>61510522
Then you didn't answer the question did you.

Why is it not music?
>>
>>61510538
Because while I don't remember how it sounded exactly, I remember that it was just uninspired singing with a sparse sonic background on guitar. Not all that's written is literature, not all that's sonic is music.
>>
>>61510522
Why was the song not music
>>
>>61510566
>inb4 'So you're saying that it is density that makes music?'
>>
>>61510566
Incorrect. if it's organized sound in a rhythmic and/or harmonic methodology, it's music.
>>
>>61510566
>I didn't like it
>therefore its not music

I'm trying to see things from your point of view, but my head won't fit up there too
>>
>>61510430
Oh, I see.

>>61510451
>Niacin is a neo-fusion instrumental trio

So you shit on jazz when your favorite band is some shitty meme band for people who don't get jazz?
>>
>FoxAndTheGrapes.jpg, the thread
>>
>>61510586
Eh, no. Organization is necessary, but not sufficient. Again, this is the distinction between organized language and literature -- organized imagery and art -- organized construction and architecture -- and so on. But I don't care very much for definition of music.

>>61510599
I hear no jazz on that album.
>>
>>61510629
>But I don't care very much for definition of music.
Then it would make sense you don't know what music is.
>>
>>61509226

Being a musician doesn't make your subjective taste better than someone else's subjective taste, that's not the issue. If you want to try to discuss the structure and harmonic/melodic content of music to try to dismiss one of the most significant genres of music of the last 100 years, you should be able to show you have some idea what you're talking about.

This is a person who thinks prog is more harmonically and structurally advanced than jazz. They literally just don't know what they are talking about. That's a different question than which is "better" and one where knowing how music works in a practical way makes a huge difference.
>>
>>61510625
This is what jazz fans say to themselves as they cry themselves to sleep at night to explain why their only friend is a fat kid who looks like a hamster (hamster kid secretly hates him)

>>61510629
I agree, furthermore

*FFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAARRRRRTTTT*
>>
>>61510676
wowlol so random
>>
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>>61510629
>I hear no jazz in a jazz fusion album

Let me guess, you're a complete music theory analphabet, but you think your "opinions" on a genre with more than a century of history is valid anyway?
>>
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>>61510676
I think you dropped this on the ground, sir.
>>
ITT: People are arguing with some prog nerd who shits on jazz because he couldn't get into it.
>>
>>61510659
>This is a person who thinks prog is more harmonically and structurally advanced than jazz.

Look.

It's easy to indulge in pointless tonal gimmicks or whatever if you don't give a fuck about any other quality of the music.

In fact, look:

'Easy to indulge in targetless adaptation of toneful alteration, especially that you are disinterested in all descriptors other of one's music.'

See? I just made that sentence intentionally polished. Alliteration (ta-ad-to-al, ot-of-on, but also ea-to-es-th), affixal historical correspondence (-ion-ion), opposition (-less-ful), slightly altered order, some syllabic patterns (3-4-1-2-3), and so on. More sophisticated.

But does it sound/read better? A resounding no.

That's jazz. Indulging in low-level changes at a gross expense of the piece as a whole. It is painful to read/listen to, unless you just take it as a whole and don't read/listen too critically. Which is exactly what jazz listeners do. They're fascinated by a handful of low-level changes while forgetting to integrate it at the higher levels. To be an artist, you need to do both, to sacrifice nothing.
>>
>jazzfags are this easy to troll
>>
>>61510925
In other words, I understand completely. A jazz 'musician' reduces some chord or slides something or prolongs it or inverts it... I understand. It is just arithmetic that you can learn. But it is banal to do when you are not interested in music itself. It is like writing pseudocode. while(x += x(x++, x || (x::y).z)) is impressive from the notational point of view, but it is a wreck of a code that stands for nothing.
>>
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>>61510958
>>
>>61510925
>He's still comparing music to language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_analogy#False_analogy
>>
>>61510925
>It's easy to indulge in pointless pedantism and false analogies if you don't give a fuck about making a valid argument
>>
>>61511028
>>61511066
Well, what could I do?

Post the first song from the last rec from >>61509965, [1], and say that it is uninspired, automated execution that requires no creativity, which will in ten years at most be generated automatically, thus rendering jazz 'musicians' even more obsolete than they are now?

[1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=DIkf0G6nUxY
>>
>>61510625
I guess we're all just mad that we don't understand fascism and we just don't get it, I guess /pol/ was right.
>>
>>61511083
What instrument do you play again?
>>
>>61511083
(In fact, apparently there are jazz generators already, like those postmodernist text generators or New Age text generators. Again, this is because jazz is the simplest 'music' to program, involving the least number of variables/parametres.)
>>
>>61511118
So you're implying only musicians could get or not get jazz? Uh oh the goals are moving.
>>
>>61511162
>So you're implying only musicians could get or not get a genre devoted to musicianship?
Didn't answer the question. try again?
>>
>>61511162
Only musicians can talk about music in general.
>>
>>61511207
I'm not even him (the one you asked before) but I do play guitar, bass, drums, trumpet and piano.
>>61511209
So normal listeners can't express their joy or disgust about music? How does knowing music theory give an authority on knowing what is enjoyable or not? I understand listening to more music gives a broader sense of what's more innovative or not, but that has nothing to do with being a musician in itself.
>>
>>61506974
you really do have to be retarded to be an adult and listening to riock
>>
>>61511302
This, rock is nothing but tedious penis noises
>>
>>61511284
>So normal listeners can't express their joy or disgust about music?
Except anon was portraying himself as an educated listener.
>How does knowing music theory give an authority on knowing what is enjoyable or not?
He wasn't discussing enjoyability, but the literal musical validation of jazz.

Please read the thread before you comment.
>>
>>61511118
I don't play music.


But meanwhile, I'm becoming really interested in that jazz masterpiece generator. I think it would be a good bachelor's project in CS. It wouldn't involve whole swathes of definition of, such as mood, or cultural or emotional references, or diversity beyond the random seed of the structure representing the pitches during the twenty minute instrument runs. Then some code determining lengths, but jazz pieces don't even seem to display piece-wide tension, so it's basically a constant property of a run. Then a couple of weighted pairings of different instruments (how well they go together). Basically you just need to hardcode a couple of relationships.

Maybe I should pitch the idea to >>>/g/.
>>
>>61511327
>of definition of
*of definition of music
>>
>>61509098
There's always one man in all these kinds of threads who see the world correctly and isn't a cunt. Today, that's you. Enjoy it
>>
>>61511302
You must have to be a retard to listen to jazz as an adult now you've moved out of your pushy parents' house
>>
>>61511327
>I don't play music.
That would make sense why you don't understand jazz

>But meanwhile, I'm becoming really interested in that jazz masterpiece generator. I think it would be a good bachelor's project in CS. It wouldn't involve whole swathes of definition of, such as mood, or cultural or emotional references, or diversity beyond the random seed of the structure representing the pitches during the twenty minute instrument runs. Then some code determining lengths, but jazz pieces don't even seem to display piece-wide tension, so it's basically a constant property of a run. Then a couple of weighted pairings of different instruments (how well they go together). Basically you just need to hardcode a couple of relationships.
>Maybe I should pitch the idea to >>>/g/.
That's fine. I hope you enjoy your pursuits.

But remember that art attempts to comment on the human experience, especially jazz in which the human soul is celebrated. Completely automating that seems to contradict the point of it.
>>
>>61511363
>jazz in which the human soul is celebrated

This is exactly not the case. Jazz is soulless precisely because it is the most easily automatizable genre of music. Try to generate any of >>61508177.
>>
>>61511384
>most easily automatizable genre of music

Namely, easiest to win the Turing test with.
>>
>>61511384
>>61511400
[citation needed]
>>
>>61511325
By normal I meant non-musician, and I said I'm not him. Jazz music sounds very bad, it's not enjoyable at all, and requires the listener to make his own interpretation of such an uninspired piece, which I would rather do with toilet flushing sounds, at least it wouldn't have that awful saxophone timbre of a badly played trumpet.
>>
>Guys, I'm gonna start crying, how can they be improvising things BETTER than most rock guys compose!?

Most of the /mu/core artists you nerds talk about are influenced by Jazz anyway.
>>
>>61511516
fuc k you pleg
>>
>>61511421
I reckon it would be possible to measure music complexity with some sort of pattern detector, identifying... well, yes, timbre, tempo, numerical relationships, numbers of different relationships, numbers of *kinds* of different relationships, dependence of occurrence of those relationships on specific contexts (co-occurrence), numbers of progressions belonging to different genres, volume... I imagine that's been done in minor terms. I imagine jazz would turn out somewhere pop and rap.
>>
>>61511516
Why would I care about rock music if I thought jazz was better? Right now you're like one of those religious people who claim atheists believe in God but refuse to acknowledge it.
>>
>>61511551
Is it literally impossible for you to like BOTH?
>>
>>61511547
>somewhere pop and rap
*somewhere above
>>
>>61511547
In other words, jazz is extremely complex, but in an extremely small number of variables.
>>
>>61506974
Pure bullshit like everything he ever said or written
>>
>>61508687
>as you get deeper into more improvisational, freer jazz, it's analogous to noise music, which brings my point back to it literally just sounding good. what sounds good to you might not sound good to me and vice versa.

The problem ITT is that "Jazz" can be a million different genres. Compare Kenny G and Herbie Hancock. Both are consideres Jazz musicians. Don't make blanket statements about a genre that can be literally put on anything.
>>
>>61511566
I just happen to, I have truly tried to like jazz, but it just sounds to me like when I'm doodling around my instruments, which I only enjoy coming from myself in that specific time frame. Rock is more lasting, more planned, more about the big picture of how the song works with itself and not how the next note will sound with itself. Jazz and most metal are the only genres I really cannot enjoy as much as I try, the former being because I do not enjoy the "angry" mindset they try to convey, and similarly, I can see how the noodling mindset might work, but when I want to doodle around I do it myself.
>>
>>61511284
>How does knowing music theory give an authority on knowing what is enjoyable or not?

>he thinks art is about enjoyability

How's Highschool treating you?
>>
>>61511690
|0\
>>
>>61511694
If you don't appreciate art for what emotions is trying to convey then don't comment on art, look into something else.
>>
>>61511690
>how the song works with itself and not how the next note will sound with itself

Well put. Thank you.
>>
>>61511777
>muh feels
bar zero square
>>
>>61511777
Art is about aesthetics, if you just want emotions go read a romance novel or some shit you fucking pleb
>>
>>61511083
>Post the first song from the last rec from >>61509965, [1], and say that it is uninspired, automated execution that requires no creativity

Explain why.

What you've posted here so far wasn't an argumentation, just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims and fallacies disguised under some of the most pedantic and pseudo-intellectual writing I've ever seen.

>[...] which will in ten years at most be generated automatically

You can do this right now for any music genre. Just use markov chains to generate new tracks based on analysis of repeating patterns in tracks from a certain music genre. This doesn't say anything about the music.
>>
>>61511284
Not the guy you are talking too.
But in order to get certain music, you have to simply play an instrument and know certain "things" about music theory. It's not a conscious effort, but Jazz musicians actually use the linguistic centre in their brain when improvising. A (good) Jazz musician uses music like a language and if you improvised a lot in your life and listened to a shit-ton of music you simply "get" more of the music being played. I like this analogy: If Music is a language only someone well versed in it can understand a complex poem in that language. Of course someone might like the sound of the it without knowing it, but in order to get every detail, you'll have to invest some time. That's why sometimes Jazz music sounds awfully dissonant to a casual listener, while pleasing a music nerd. It's not about being "better" at listening to music it's about listening to all the music and getting bored with obvious situations.
>>
>>61511384
>Try to generate any of >>61508177.

But music that is considerably more interesting than that shite you posted has already been generated before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLR-_c_uCwI
>>
>>61511794
Get into math then, why bother with artists trying to be all soulful.
>>61511811
Beauty conveys emotions too, it's a very wide array of emotions, but it produces an emotional response, just because some art focuses more in specific emotions it doesn't diminish it as an artwork.
ärt/
noun
1.
the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
>>
>>61511847
>Just use markov chains to generate new tracks based on analysis of repeating patterns in tracks from a certain music genre.

I had this very idea as I was writing my posts and I discarded it. The point is not to reproduce, it is to program from scratch. The size of the resulting algorithms, whose validity will be measured by double blind trials, will determine the complexity of the genre.
>>
>>61511811
Don't try to make blanket statements that are obviously talking about a certain form of art you deem the best. Many musicians who were much more proficient than you are knowingly conveyed emotions with their music. It's natural: An artist will express himself in many different ways, because unlike you they don't need to justify themselves and act like they are the authority on art. They just like doing their shit because of what it is and so should you.
>>
>>61511919
>Beauty conveys emotions too,

Beauty CAN convey emotion but that's not it's primary purpose. Beauty is about aesthetic form and the truths its form reveals.

If you take art just as something to please you or tickle your emotions you're shallow as fuck.
>>
>>61511872
Nonsense. You have simply invested emotionally in the small number of variables jazz recognizes and refuse to acknowledge the rest.

To paraphrase some further, everyone can 'get' jazz, most people just have the decency not to. I can see the appeal of jazz perfectly, I just refuse to waste time on it and let it keep me from studying more rewarding genres.
>>
>>61511955
>Don't try to make blanket statements that are obviously talking about a certain form of art you deem the best.

No, it's not just one form of art, all art is reflected in aesthetic form and to deny this is the sort of ontological ignorance that gets you to 'dude anything can be art!'
>>
>>61511997
No it just means they use art in a different way. I listen to all kinds of music, complex, easy, deep and shallow and I don't listen to it because I try to impress anyone. I don't elevate myself because of my taste. I make music myself and met a lot of muscians, good and bad. And most of them just play until they find something they like. They don't question "why" they like it or what it means artistically, they just do it because it's "fun", fullfilling or whatever. Of course sometimes you compose a song entirely, but many of the great Jazz standards came from improvising together.
And when someone improvises and does something that is aesthetically pleasing or simply beautiful, they'll remember it either way. Your distinction isn't in any way realistic for a musician. You have to like every aspect of music in order to grow artistically.
>>
>>61509397
>folk music is white
The state of /mu/, everyone.
>>
>>61512096
The fact you believe art is something that is 'used' shows you haven't got even the faintest clue on what you're talking about.

Are you honestly telling me utilising shallow ideas about art would be beneficial just because other people use them lmao
>>
art is for gays and losers
>>
>>61512021
Look that is your problem and the problem of the whole board. You discuss music too much and try to categorize it like it was some form of task in school. You try to be a "better" listener than someone else, by pidgeonholeing artists and choosing the most rewarding one. That is simply not how music works. I would never refuse to listen to someone because of the label someone gave it. Especially for a lose genre like Jazz it is absolutely retarded to try and make a statement about the whole genre. There is Jazz that sounds like Metal, EDM, Rock, Folk, Hip Hop and all sorts of shit.
>the small number of variables jazz recognizes
You talk about don't exist. You probably think of lounge Jazz if you make these kinds of arguments. My advice would be to let go of labels in music and just enjoy whatever sounds good to you. That is what most musicians do.
>>
>>61508661
>jazz is what prog wants to be but fails imho
If that was the case then they would just make Jazz. Prog tends to have just as much in common with Classical music as it does with Jazz. Prog is much more structured and based around long arrangements.

Sure there are some bands who get labeled Prog and do a lot of long jams or improvisations but really those bands are mislabeled Prog.
>>
>>61512193
Im telling you what most muscians I know tell me. As I said in another post, most of the people on /mu/ don't listen to music because they like it but rather to fit in. There is no correct way to listen to music. I hate Justin Bieber, but if someone finds it fulfilling to listen to him I don't blame them. I don't feel what they feel, and I don't need more info than that. You are trying to establish some sort of authority, and try to differentiate between "Good" and "Bad" music. For me that doesn't exist, either I like a song or not. I don't need to justify my preference, and neither does anyone else.
>>
>>61512191
>Good folk music
There, I made the distinction.
>>
>>61512288
I am just memeing in response to the anti jazz guy desu

While I am all about that form if someone listens to music for emotions I don't actually care.
>>
>>61512215
There is so much music, I can't listen to all of it, but I do know some genres tend to have music that I like more. Besides some music from Evans and some moments in Coltrane's, most jazz music is unappealing to me, and I would rather spend that time listening to a genre from which I'm most likely guaranteed to find music which appeals to me.
>>
>>61512308
Then do you agree with the original statement which is basically "considering Jazz as a superior art form is not valid"?
>>
>>61512215
>You probably think of lounge Jazz if you make these kinds of arguments.

I've been listening to song after song from the infographic posted in this thread, and being disappointed. Meandering and repetitive? Yes. Skillful? Yes, at meandering.

>My advice would be to let go of labels in music and just enjoy whatever sounds good to you.

This is exactly what I do. It just happens that I like almost nothing labelled 'jazz'.

Well, this is nice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeLqPByCrok&t=4m0s

Though then, it is definitely composed, because there are improvisations by that Dave Holland man on YouTube, and they, well, sound like one.
>>
>>61512465
Superior art to what?

Classical, Folk, Soul, Blues etc - No

Classic Rock, Metal, etc - Absofuckinglutely
>>
>>61512525
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeLqPByCrok&t=4m0s

There are quite obvious improvisations in that senpai
>>
>>61512594
Nor did I say that I like it.
>>
>>61512651
>>61512594
In other words, no matter how relatively good, jazz just leaves a bad aftertaste in my brain. I just don't get why those people insist on struggling to give me a half-assed, relatively good, at times entertaining performance, instead of composing, memorizing, delivering a great, cathartic one.
>>
>>61512682
I mean, it's as if a painter drew a beautiful arm on one piece of paper, a beautiful hand on another, a beautiful torso yet elsewhere, gave me all the pieces, and told me, 'imagine a great drawing'.
>>
>>61512711
(Plus a handsome number of undefined, ugly lumpy pieces of flesh as well, of course.)
>>
>>61512560
Jazz is superior to all of those, though.
>>
>>61512795
The musicians don't get points for effort just because they make performance harder for themselves by deciding to include one-off variations. It's the end result that counts. If it can't stand on its own merit, it is objectively inferior. Just because I try to do something blindfolded and don't fail miserably doesn't mean I do a better job than everyone who does it normally.
>>
>>61512525
>I've been listening to song after song from the infographic posted in this thread, and being disappointed. Meandering and repetitive? Yes. Skillful? Yes, at meandering.

Explain why it's "meandering and repetitive". Point out what musical motifs appear multiple times through it, and explain how that would be an argument for the repetitiveness you propose. Maybe you'd have a valid argument for once.
>>
>>61512847
Jesus, you are dense.

I have been explaining this over and over.

The fact that there are no EXACT repeating motifs doesn't mean the piece is not repetitive.

If it goes 11111101 11111001 11111101 11111100 11111001 11111101 11111101 11111100, then hardly anything repeats, but this doesn't mean that it is rich in any sense.
>>
>>61512886
>Jesus, you are dense.

Funny how perfectly this sentence applies to you.

>I have been explaining this over and over.

Could you provide some quotes?

>The fact that there are no EXACT repeating motifs doesn't mean the piece is not repetitive.

Explain what you think makes it repetitive, then.

>If it goes 11111101 11111001 11111101 11111100 11111001 11111101 11111101 11111100, then hardly anything repeats, but this doesn't mean that it is rich in any sense.

Another false analogy. You're such a loony toon.
>>
>>61512886
>>61512847
>inb4 false analogy

The analogy is true and you know it. I could replace that binary with any at all variable: again, pitch, volume, relationships between instruments, some sort of geometric chord distances. The variation exists on the microscale only. Jazz teaches nothing, illuminates nothing, cannt make a listener a good musician, it is disjointed, dismembered, like a toddler that spouts alphabet.
>>
>>61512958
>The analogy is true and you know it.

Explain why.
>>
>>61512958
You've already admitted you don't know anything about music beyond what you think sounds nice and what doesn't and yet you think you can judge not only how good Jazz is but also how valuable it is to another musician?

LMAO
>>
>>61512795
This is the problem with Jazz fans. They're just as bad as Death Grips fans, and I enjoy both the genre and the band.
>>
>>61512840
>He actually thinks Jazz musicians improvise just to show off

How clueless are you?
>>
>>61512988
>Explain why.
>>61512930
>Could you provide some quotes?
>>61512930
>Explain what you think makes it repetitive, then.

You are not being funny.

>>61512991
>You've already admitted you don't know anything about music beyond what you think sounds nice

This is a thoroughly imaginary accusation.

>>61513028
>>He actually thinks Jazz musicians improvise just to show off

This is a thoroughly imaginary accusation as well.

>>61512930
I reckon you just have the attention span of an underage b& who can only remember approximately five seconds backwards, then because this is about the unit of conscious structure a jazz performer can consciously shape before he has to move on to another. I am genuinely sorry for you.
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