Are The Beatles the greatest band ever? It's hard to think of a more all around complete musical group. Otherwise who would it be?
They might have been at some point in history but they have aged horrendously.
I cannot think of a time in the last 5 years i have heard anyone playing a beatles song anywhere.
Queen gets my vote
Sure, must be why boheniam rhapsody keeps getting voted the best song of all time and no beatles songs ever do.
Queen sold out stadiums for a reason.
Also we will rock you and we are the champions get played to millions of people around the world to this day in stadiums.
Whe was the last time you were at a football stadium and they started playing the beatles?
Theres a good reason for that...
They are not great musicians because they had not a good technique and knowledge, we can't forget that they were autodidact musicians. The best example to compare is look at the Mothers of invention band and the complexity of the music that they performed (in fact is the complexity expected from real formed musicians).
Not OP but a lot of what gets taken for granted in rock music wouldn't have happened the way it did without them, they pioneered the idea that bands should be self-contained; do their own songwriting and playing without corporate interference.
They rewrote the lexicon of rock songwriting with the early work which /mu/ likes to dismiss. They were subtly sophisticated from a harmonic and melodic standpoint; even their most arguably poppy song - "She Loves You" - throws in a jazz chord at the end.
They were gifted singers and multi-instrumentalists, especially Paul, and their career reflects a wide variety of styles and creativity, yet consistency of qualityhey also went out at the top of their game without falling victim to the nostalgia crowd like the Stones or even the Beach Boys to an extent.
Honestly, they're in a league of their own.
I chose the Zappa's band because I know they were great formed musicians as I could chose some other band like Miles Davis Quintet, or some random orchestra. I mean, good formed musicians. It's not that hard.
I'm talking about they as musicians (if we understand musicians by his musical knowledge and capacity with his instruments).
Beatles are one of my favourite bands but that's obvious when you analize their songs.
Where did I say anything about invention? In fact, I think the constant emphasis on the Beatles' "innovations" is a big part of why so many people think they're overrated. Their real value lies in their craftsmanship and their consistency, both of which they had more of than the Velvets or the Beach Boys.
But that's wrong, the first half of the Beatles career was them playing boring pop songs people had been doing for years, considering most of it was trash that's not very consistent. The second half of their career was inconsistent as fuck, they put out Revolver and Sgt Pepper and then struggled to stick to a single theme or style, which made their albums suffer
>the first half of the Beatles career was them playing boring pop songs people had been doing for years
Point me to another pop song circa 1964 with a comparable chordal vocabulary to If I Fell.
And their later work is consistent in terms of quality, not how superficially similar it sounds.
Yes, Zappa was also an extremely accomplished rock composer, but I was trying to refute the claim that the Beatles' early work had been "done for years," and posting a song from 1967 doesn't work for that.
>Point me to another pop song circa 1964
3 years is a huge difference, especially considering how pop music completely changed in those 3 yeras. 1967 is completely different to 1964.
It's not only the beatles that changed in that time. So many other things have too, basically everything, honestly. By 1967 pop music was a completely different thing to how it was in 1964.
The thing about pet sounds us that wouldn't it be nice and god only knows have been played to death that has became kind of clichéd to most people similar to Beethoven 5th symphony.
I feel it's worth repeating that the original point was that an anon claimed the Beatles' early work was overly derivative of older music when it demonstratably wasn't. 1967 or Frank Zappa don't really affect that one way or the other.
The same people who think in such manner is the same people who disregard classical music (I don't listen to it often but I have appreciated it and liked it).
I would say pet sounds is quite timeless to some middle of the road synthpop album of the 90s.
It synthesized and expanded on all of those styles, using uncommon chord progressions and voicings, as well as distinctive harmony singing.
And besides that, they were just a tight rock n' roll band. Instead of just being a team of session players picked by a producer, they had honed their skills and developed chemistry with each other by playing German dive bars for hours on end for weeks at a time. It all came together into something undeniable.
Well yeah, no musicians exist in a vacuum, the Beatles wore their influence just like tons of other bands do. I just don't like seeing all of their early work disregarded as "boring pop" when it has a lot to offer.
To be honest, smile is better even in its unfinished state.
But pet sounds is quite great. There's a lot of subtle details and progression going on.
Just remember you don't have to like everything you listen to.
The melodies and songwriting is absolutely one of a kind.
Complex, yet really beautiful thought on songs, with really expressive vocals and easy to relate to lyrics.
Not to mention all of the little things like the strings and basically all other background instrument that are constantly being used to compliment the already gorgeous melodies.
Everything about Pet Sounds was also planned, there are no coincidences, everything sounds like how Brian wanted it to sound, it's like a symhpony in a way.
Today! predates Rubber Soul and is better/more consistent - especially side B
Pet Sounds predates Revolver and it better and more consistent
SMiLE is Brian and Van Dyke Parks elevating pop music and creating something spiritual that hasn't been replicated to this day. Sgt Pepper is overrated garbage (why do people think it's better than Rubber Soul or Revolver - or any of their other albums for that matter)
Side B, Brian's cannabis-produced ballads: Please Let Me Wonder, Kiss Me Baby, In the Back of my Mind
Side A has its moments too, namely When I Grow Up To Be A Man
Sgt Pepper is lauded as the greatest record of all time when it is pretty lackluster even compared to the Beatles other work
Too bad The Beatles career doesn't end there, for your disgrace. Before and after 1965-67 they've been breaking the molds of pop music whereas Brian and his clowns were just struggling.
The british won the pop war.
Sgt Pepper is fucking amazing. It's has their best produced songs, and some of the songs and ideas in that album completely blows me away. They could REALLY create that circus atmosphere, as it's so crazy, funny, and even sad at the same time. The songs constantly changes and moving forward too which just makes it a hell of a ride.
You can't just namedrop songs to prove your point lol.
>talks about Today! B-Sides
>Doesn't even mentions She Knows Me
doing it wrong m8.
Okay? Neither do the Beach Boys... those are just their most acclaimed and most compared albums
Brian was the trailblazer before the Beatles ever came along. There was literally no one like him before or after. People have this idea that Brian dropped out after SMiLE - that simply isn't true. I get that maybe people don't immediately understand Smiley Smile's weirdness or artsiness. It really didn't offer anything new though. Friends, Sunflower, Surf's Up, and to a lesser extent, 20/20, Holland, Wild Honey and Love You are fantastic, it's just that most of the production was delegated to Carl Wilson and the rest of the members, especially Dennis, really stepped up with their own songwriting abilities. I just believe that they stopped trying to compete with the Beatles and did their own thing. Not to mention all the unreleased material from Landlocked, Add Some Music, and Adult/Child. To me SMiLE is the only evidence I need of Brian's superiority not only to the Beatles but to literally any other entity in pop music/
name drop songs? i gave examples of what i thought made that record so great
she knows me too well is good, so is i'm so young, but i just listed the best songs in my opinion, or best examples
>must be why boheniam rhapsody keeps getting voted the best song of all time
Do you think Internet polls of nostalgic dadrockers are good indications of artistic merit, generally speaking?
consistency of the songs u dingus
it's like an early version of pet sounds
i won't go so far as to say that it's a concept album, i don't even believe that about pet sounds but it's full of solid emotional ballads and unprecedented production - especially side b which was the first time brian arranged and produced an entire work entirely stoned
listen to the instrumentation, the saxophone, the strings, this was one of the first times he begins using studio musicians and more sophisticated instrumentation over the beach boys as instrumentalists
I know and love Today! but just name dropping songs doesn't proves anything.
I mean I can also say the Rubber Soul had Nowhere Man, Think For Yourself, The Word and Michelle. And I can also say that it's the first time The Beatles experimented with unusual instruments and more sophisticated themes.
it's the most famous unreleased album
it was brian wilson wanting to make "spiritual music" with the help of collaborator and lyricist van dyke parks and artist frank holmes. after brian finished pet sounds, he was unsure of what to do next. he had some sort of lsd flashback episode in a bookstore and wanted to understand what it meant - i believe smile was directly inspired by this event. he took his third and final lsd trip after that to find the answers and wanted to make music to give everyone a religious, good experience and an extension of the good vibrations that good vibrations put off as a single. it was comprised of all of brian's interests and intellectual pursuits and presented as a zen koan. there was also the idea to take the american-ness of the band and utilize it thematically after writing heroes and villains. it's full of psychedelia and weirdness, techniques of western art music, lyrical puns, philosophy, references to historical events, and beautiful imagery. the most ambitious album ever attempted. because of many complicated reasons, it got shelved and a record called smiley smile came out in late 1967. brian was at the height of his (carefully constructed) media popularity and hipness with the haight ashbury and psychedelic scenes, so people were expecting a lot. heroes and villains basically tanked as a single (the successor to good vibrations) the beach boys also dropped out of monterey pop and woodstock, further cementing their status. they released many great albums afterwards and were popular in the uk and with the counter culture but they never had the same status as they did before smile. over the years songs from smile ended up on later albums and bootlegs and in 2004 brian released a solo album of what was supposed to be the finished smile album rerecorded with his band. of course this is not the same smile the world would have seen in 1967. he wasn't even finished and who knows what direction he would have taken.
in 2011 smile sessions is archival recordings from 66-67 (71 if you count the children's song/child is the father of the man refrain on surf's up). it is the closest thing to an actual release, and in my eyes, is smile.
What are the songs he only finished in 2011? in songs like Wonderful, In Blue Hawaii, Song For Children and a few others his voice sounds completely different, were they really recorded during the 2000's?
No, that was in 2004 with Brian Wilson presents SMiLE. Wonderful was written in 66 or 67 in Brian's sandbox with VDP. An avant-garde deconstructed rerecorded version was included on Smiley Smile in 1967. It was included on many bootlegs after that. In Blue Hawaii is Brian and Van Dyke Parks coming together in 2004 to add lyrics to and finish the Smile track Love to Say Dada (the water section of the elements suite). Song For Children I assume you're talking about the ending refrain on Surf's Up. It's basically a reprise of Child is the Father of the Man. In 1971 by Jack Riley's suggestion, the Beach Boys, most Carl Wilson single handedly were trying to arrange a version of Surf's Up to add to their album of the same name. Every time they would work on it in Brian's home studio, he would get in his car and drive away (for years brian was uncomfortable with smile material, wrote it off in interviews, and i guess it held bad memories or something). One day while recording, he walked in and announced that it was missing a part and showed them lyrics that no one else had seen (a children's song, have you listened as they played, their song is love and the children know the way). i don't know if those were lyrics van dyke parks had written in 1967 or if brian made that up on the spot. it is my favorite piece of surf's up and maybe smile as a whole. it's got very complex vocal harmonies and a lot is going on. anyway, they put that version of surf's up with carl singing the words over the 1967 music i believe and it was the first time anyone had heard surf's up besides once on television when brian sang a solo demo version by his piano
Also, off the top of my head the only differences or newly added material that I can think of that is obvious is the lyrics to the beginning part of Do You Like (Dig) Worms/Rock Roll Plymouth Rock, The "is it hot as hell in here or is it me..." and lyrics besides the chanting in In Blue Hawaii/I Love to Say Dada (also there was a reworked version of this on Sunflower called Cool Cool Water with some other lyrics)
There is a version (maybe more than one) where people tried to put together the smile sessions recordings from the 60s and add the extra 2004 material. it's floating around the net and you can download it from blogspot type sites that post bootlegs
and Look!, Holidays, etc which didn't have lyrics originally
some alternate lyrics as well, I doubt I'm in Great Shape has the 'fresh zen air around my head... i'm in the great shape of the agriculture' lyric
Most beach boys songs sound like they're made at the beach. That's alright if you're into that sort of sound but otherwise the beatles are clearly better and kept their own quirky (circus) sound to one album.
Ok, so I think the version of smiles sessions I always listened to is not usual, since I couldn't find the versions of the songs i'm talking about.
Anyway, i'm talking about this specific recording of "Children of The Man" that sounds like it was recorded recently, brian doesn't sounds like his old self. I
even uploaded it to mega here
Tell me what you think this is from please.
interesting. So I think i've listened to the version you mentioned when people tried to put together the smile sessions from the 60's along with the 2004 material. I really love this version.
Do you think the original smile sessions that came out in 2011 is better?
Yeah I like it most because it's recordings from the era with the wrecking crew and he had them do weird shit like he would tell hal blaine to make the tambourines sound 'like jewelry' for surf's up or marimba sound like 'the wind' for windchimes. it's kind of got its own atmosphere and sounds more lofi in a way too which adds to it. 2004 is a bit overproduced imo. I used to prefer it, especially the version of heroes and villains where he really delivers the i BEEN in this town lyric
Apperantly I always listened to this version.
That's weird. This version of "Rock Roll Playmouth" is my favorite song of all time, is it also from "Brian Wilsons Presents Smile"?
it's the mashup of 67 and the 2004 bonus parts
it has the additional lines at the beginning that were never recorded until 2004 but written in 67 by van dyke parks
i first listened to it and downloaded it maybe in 2013. it's alright, i just haven't listened to it as much as smile sessions proper
The Beach Boys had recorded songs just as harmonically varied at least two dozen times by then.
This band did between 1966-1967. Nobody else has since or before.
Revolver reiterated almost everything begun in Pet Sounds save for Tomorrow Never Knows.
Less than 10% of the Beach Boys discography has to do with surfing or the beach. Less than 5% of that 10% is even classified as surf rock.
Because it's a box set compilation of an album that doesn't exist. There are hundreds of hours worth of Smile tapes, but none of it was ever released. The first 19 tracks of The Smile Sessions are an attempt to make them into a coherent album.
>Less than 10% of the Beach Boys discography has to do with surfing or the beach
>All Summer Long
>Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
>Beach Boys' Party!
>Keepin' the Summer Alive
>Summer in Paradise
>Revolver reiterated almost everything begun in Pet Sounds save for Tomorrow Never Knows.
And Pet Sounds reiterated everything begun in Rubber Soul
Rubber Soul reiterated everything the Beach Boys and Bob Dylan had done. Who are you trying to fool?
Just because the album was called "Summer Days" doesn't mean the content reflects summer. There are no "summer" songs on Summer Days apart from a single lyric in Girl Don't Tell Me.
And I can't believe you're even trying to count the post-70s albums.
The Beach Boys literally did not write a single surf, beach, or car song between the years 1965 and 1968. That's after All Summer Long (1964) and before the single Do It Again (1969).
Before All Summer Long, they had the albums Surfin' Safari, Surfin' U.S.A., Surfer Girl, Little Deuce Coupe, and Shut Down Volume 2. Recorded and released in the span of two years. The Beach Boys went on to record about 20+ more albums that had nothing to do with their namesake.
you idiots don't know what you're getting yourself into. That guy is the biggest Beach Boys fanboy of all time and this thread will just get derailed and ruined thanks to you idiots.
You can't argue with that idiot he's too blinded by his love for the beach boys.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I like both bands.
But /mu/ is fucking stupid. There was a thread yesterday where people tried to say the Beatles did doubletracked vocals AND Leslie'd vocals first. Brian Wilson did both of those things in fucking 1963, before the Beatles had even made A Hard Day's Night.
summer days and summer nights and party both have zero (0) surfing songs
the first four you listed has all of nine (10!!!) surfing songs on them.
>And Pet Sounds reiterated everything begun in Rubber Soul
in what way? how, musically, did pet sounds reiterate anything on rubber soul?
>That guy is the biggest Beach Boys fanboy of all time and this thread will just get derailed and ruined thanks to you idiots.
there are at least two people around here who shill the beach boys. me, and apparently that guy.
and this anon is right, it's not smart to try to argue with either of us. but that's not because we fetishize the beach boys. it's because, unlike apparently 99% of people who talk about the beach boys, we've familiarized ourselves with the band and brian wilson.
>in what way? how, musically, did pet sounds reiterate anything on rubber soul?
Why even bother asking this, it's the same discussion had in every single thread, and he's just going to repeat the same since-debunked bullshit everyone else does.
"Rubber Soul inspired Pet Sounds' instruments!"
"Hardly. The only instrument Brian Wilson hadn't used until Pet Sounds was a theremin."
"(responds with some incoherent point about how Strawberry Fields gave Brian schizophrenia)"
Boring. Same shit as always.
Saying that Revolver reiterated everything from Pet Sounds is just stupid. The Beatles always had their own way for harmony and it was always different from the beach boys. The Beatles also has their own way of composing and they have melodies very different from the Beach Boys.
Pet Sounds probably inspired some of the things in revovler but saying that it reiterated everything from pet sounds is just a thing that a giant, biased fanboy would say. These bands are very different from each other.
yeah i should know better myself. feels like nearly every thread is total deja vu.
>The Beatles always had their own way for harmony and it was always different from the beach boys. The Beatles also has their own way of composing and they have melodies very different from the Beach Boys.
i don't necessarily disagree that revolver is a different album from pet sounds in many ways (i think paul's tunes are the only ones really influenced by it, particularly here there and everywhere and for no one), but how exactly can you justify a statement like "the beatles had different melodies from the beach boys"? what does that even mean, really
Today! has fucking covers on it lmao, pls gtfo with that shit. 100% original material only belongs in this convo, not ripping off shit from the 50s to pad your record out, this ain't '63. Rubber Soul takes a giant dinosaur shit on that album.
The Beach Boys has that thing were the melody goes around the Tonic while the melodies of The Beatles usually uses the Tonic very heavily.
The Beach Boys just had more complex melodies and many Beach Boys songs have a lot of different main melodies. Sometimes 4-5 different melodies in one song.
today has literally one cover on it, and it's an original arrangement by brian. he made it his own song.
>100% original material only belongs in this convo
nice rockist attitude
ah, i see what you're saying now. i thought you were saying they sounded different or something which, to me, would be difficult to quantify. yeah they definitely approached melody songwriting-wise very differently from each other.
>Fuck off, covers blow
and why is that, my rockist friend?
it's not great but it's not even the worst song of their early career
tbh do you wanna dance is great sonically speaking, i think brian's attempt at spector's wall of sound technique really shines during its chorus. but i just don't like their approach to it. i much prefer the mamas and papas version.
Because they're awfully dated, even more than most Beach Boys stuff which is saying a lot, and a cheap grab for a complete track listing because you couldn't write enough of your own stuff in time. A rapper would never get away with straight up stealing a 32 from another nigga, don't see why bands should be let off the hook for it.
>Because they're awfully dated
if you think I'm So Young sounds any more dated than any other song on the B side of today then your ears may be damaged
>and a cheap grab for a complete track listing because you couldn't write enough of your own stuff in time.
or the artist is making an individual statement through an existing song, which brian is because I'm So Young resonates with his personal life at the time and he made his own arrangement to accompany the song
atleast county fair is a fun song. everything about do you wanna dance is annoying except maybe the guitars. it's just an obnoxious song.
their cover of "misirlou" is probably their worst though now that I think of it.
>atleast county fair is a fun song.
i just can't stomach it. mike love's voice in the first year of their existence is so grating on my ears 90% of the time, and this song is his worst offense as a lead vocalist.
and yeah the misirlou cover isn't great but i like the original enough to not hate as much as county fair.
If it's not your song it's not your statement. You're simply co-opting someone else's words and work. Another Beatles thread ruined by The Brian Wilson Appreciation Society. Fan-fucking-tastic.
>If it's not your song it's not your statement.
rockist pls go
>Another Beatles thread ruined by The Brian Wilson Appreciation Society.
why does this matter? do you REALLY need a thread to talk about the beatles in? have you not already discussed everything there is to discuss with them? it's the goddamn beatles, dude.
it's particularly nasally (which is saying a lot given how nasal he was in their early career) and the way he says certain lines just hurts my ears.
>thuh mos' speshulest gurle i knew
The Beatles are probably one of my favorite bands, but I really hate their fanbase and agree that they're overrated.
As far as I'm concerned, they made nice, creative pop music that was new and influential at the time and that's about it. They were neither talentless hacks that got lucky nor demigods that nobody else could come close to.
there is only one band who could possibly take this cake: pic related
if you want to listen to better music you go /classical/
>newly added material that I can think of that is obvious is the lyrics to the beginning part of Do You Like (Dig) Worms/Rock Roll Plymouth Rock,
Wrong, that is a vintage lyric, it was just never recorded by The Beach Boys in 1966, and Brian likely forgot the melody and it is now a bit different. But the lyrics are vintage.
>implying the Olivia Tremor Control didn't make two Beatles albums better than the Beatles did
Never going to happen. Tomorrow Never Knows was the most important 3 minutes of music of the twentieth century.
How does he still look forty? Meanwhile Paul looks like he will transform into a mummy at any moment.
about 2 1/2 years of very intense listening. Literally have everything in their catalogue even a new released song by the name of "the same place." (supposedly the title of their new album) i had to rip it from one of John Fernades's radio show. Yeah they are easily the most accomplished group in E6 and arguably one of the most accomplished groups of the 90s. Their vision is fully intact and they did all of the recording and production themselves which says a lot to me. Plus 90% of their shit is fucking gold. With the exception of some filler.
Hair still dark and no real male pattern baldness
Intelligent beard to cover up the old guy's neck
Sunglasses for the eye wrinkles
But even without all that he'd still look pretty young for his age, yeah. I've always felt that the weird looking people were always the ones that aged better.
I've been listening to them for about 6 years and have gone through demos and a few concert bootlegs and I don't consider myself a veteran because that implies I was listening to them in the 90s and lived in Athens.
Also, just because you visit townhall doesn't make you a superfan all of a sudden.