Hip-hop is the most technical genre in terms of lyricism and the use of poetic devices. Clever wordplay, complex rhyme schemes, metaphors, similes, alliteration, onomatopoeia: etc. no genre does it better than hip-hop.
Evidence? Name a more lyrical song off of any genre more lyrical than say Jay Z's D'Evils or Nas's New York State of Mind or Mos Def's Mathematics or even Biggie's Juicy. These are just some popular examples of great hip-hop lyricism and technicality, we find it gets even deeper and better once you delve into more underground acts like Cannibal Ox, Pharoahe Monch, Aesop Rock etc.
ITT: Unfunny ironic edgy teens or people who genuinely know nothing about the genre
For real though, a lot of people don't understand the way rap rhymes work. You see it in rap parodies that always just do monosyllabic rhymes with no slants, like "owned" and "toned".
If you don't know what multisyllabics, consonance, assonance, or alliteration are, you probably don't know enough about hip-hop to be a good judge of its quality.
get off your high horse, yes I see people ignore this shit in hip hop constantly, but everyone knows what these lyrical devices are, they teach this stuff in High School English classes, don't pretend to be smart because you passed 10th grade
Where do I say I think I'm smart? I'm just saying a lot of people like to think they know about hip-hop as a genre but have no idea whatsoever about how its rhyme schemes actually work. You see it in this very thread, this is relevant to the discussion.
Nice. Want to assume anything else?
Hurricane has its strengths but it is far from being as lyrical as D'Evils or NY State of Mind.
All art is about image, dumbass.
This guy gets it.
>rhyming rock with cock
>rhyming tears with fears
>wub wub wub wub
this shit is easy.
Sometimes I wonder with these kinds of posts, are they the expected (troll posts) or do the people underneath them actually believe this shit?
If you aren't a troll, I recommend listening to some Cannibal Ox, Fantastic Damage, Dalek, Amir Sulaiman, or The Roots. You'll learn a bit more about music.
This is exclusively in response to "Literally all of them rap about how much better they are than everybody"
If someone actually holds that kind of opinion, fantastic damage would be the best "Oh, I was completely wrong" example from El-P's discography.
Then again, if someone actually consistently holds that opinion, they're either deliberately trolling or will refuse to listen to reason. It's kind of like arguing with people who refuse to believe in evolution.
Do they really? Was Cancer For Cure really just weed and sex underneath all of the talk about remaining an individual in a society that encourages conformity?
Holy shit, you really are clueless. You do know cannibus fell off harder than anything and is doing conspiracy theory rap now, right?
Let's get real though, your claim was "Underground rappers talk about literally the same things lil wayne and chief keef rap about it . They just do it more "cleverly". many people have given examples of underground rappers that don't fit this stereotype, and yet you haven't responded to any of them.
So let's see some responses. How does Dalek do that? How does Q-tip do that? How does Amir Sulaiman do that? How do Young Fathers do that?
So we'll just ignore his recounting of life in the street and the hardships black people face in America.
So we'll just forget his love and pride to the African homeland and to women just because he made a few 'gangsta' songs.
So we'll forget his love of faith, women, and traditional values.
You see where I'm going with this?
>Hell, rock can be simplified by the same terms.
The Beatles, The Who, My bloody valentine, the rolling stones, the smiths, radiohead all of them critically acclaimed all of them talk about the same garbage as the Red Hot Chili Peppers
I would never say that, and neither would you. Fuck off.
Faust is pretty critically acclaimed, doesn't mean they're well know. Critics are "supposed" to be erudites who know more than your average person. This means there will be artists that only the "experts" know about and recognise as brilliant.
Joanna is a great lyricist, she has a unique grasp on imagery, metaphors and symbols plus rhymes decently, but if we get techincal she's nowhere close to this, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adENoFfYakU
Honestly, rap has made rhyme evolve more in 30 years than poetry in 300.
Not op btw.
>if we get technical
>if we get into boring 9th grade english bullshit nobody cares about
>if we disregard meaning of lyrics, control of voice, texture, tonality and everything else a rational music listener cares about
Number of assonant syllables per rhyme.
It just goes on and on, since Kool G Rap, Rakim and Big Daddy Kane started using multisyllabic rhymes rhyming 2 or 3 syllables rappers have been improving and getting crazier with the schemes, just look at Eminem's Lose Yourself for example. Rap is like the percussion of singing, so it relies on rhythm alone and has to make up for the lack of musical melody by crafting a sort of vocal melody that can't be found pretty much anywhere else.
>I don't care about it so nobody does
>implying the level of techincal complexity takes away anything from the lyrics
if you read my comment carefully you will see that I didn't say that nobody cares about it.
I'm saying that if you are the slightest bit educated in poetry, none of this is impressive in the slightest and the focus on multisyllabic rhymes and dumb fucking metaphors detracts from the quality of the work.
that's why "real hip hop" is shit, and why the only rapper to be praised across the board by English Phds is Lil Wayne, not muh conscious rap.
Why does quantity and frequency of rhyme make it better? That's like implying a piece with frequent chord changes is harmonically brilliant. It's more impressive to have a clever harmonic structure that facilitates other aspects of the piece than to have a really dynamic and messy one of that actively detracts from the work as a whole.
>none of this is impressive in the slightest
Show me a poem that rhymes like that and we'll have an agreement.
>if we get into boring 9th grade english bullshit nobody cares about
>if you read my comment carefully you will see that I didn't say that nobody cares about it.
It does not make it universally better, it makes it better by hip hop standards. Just like techincal death metal sounds like shit to me but I'm sure the good bands have a shitload of merit to them.
Besides there's no such thing as harmony in language, the only resource we have is the repetition of similar sounds.
The fact that poets started caring less and less about rhyme and metric as history progressed doesn't make them any less valuable.
Seriously? That's the best you can do? A wikipedia article that mostly consists of rap quotes?
Internal rhyme =/= Multisyllabic rhyme
Rhyming groups of 3 syllables =/= Rhyming groups of 8
Dude, multisyllabic rhyming isn't that impressive. Don't try to pretend that hip-hop lyricism is on the same level as T.S. Eliot or Leonard Cohen because of internal and multisyllabic rhyming. I love hip-hop, but the poetic elements don't really stack up against the lyricism of more impressive lyricists like Cohen, Dylan, Newsom, or Springsteen.
Are you looking for something that has two lines where there 8 syllables in the first rhyme with 8 in the second with identical rhythm in the two lines? Most poetry with a focus on rhymes goes for more complex schemes than abcdefghabcdefgh
Read Poe's "The Raven" for example where rhymes are woven throughout the lines, along with alliteration and other devices that keep the verse flowing rather than abrupt.
Cohen, Dylan, Newsom and Springsteen might be better lyricists in terms of the content, the same way I can say Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zaratustra (which is mostly poetic prose) shits on all of them combined, but in terms of form they don't come even close to the better hip hop lyricists, it's a matter of fonetics alone.
The raven is beautiful and has quite a lot of internal rhyme and alliteration, but it's still pretty simple and has low rhyme density by hip hop standards. And the thing about multisyllabic rhyming is that it doesn't mean that the schemes are simpler, just that the individual rhymes are longer. A 8 syllable rhyme can be just the A in a ABBCCA scheme, in where the B can be a group of 3 and the C a group of 4. It's just rhyming on steroids.
I guess nobody considered rhyme density to be worth pursuing to that extent. If you're looking for beauty in form in general rather than just rhyme, maybe check out Shakespeare, Milton, etc. or if you're ok with other languages, Homer and Dante are pretty cool.
That's the thing, nobody had that much a reason to pursue rhyme density because nobody had to "compete" with singers without actually singing.
That's what makes rhymes so essential for rappers.
I don't follow.
Why is rhyme density essential? It seems to me like having to sing without singing means that the timbre of the voice and rhythm of speech becomes more important. I don't get where rhyme density comes into play. Rhyme is one method of portraying rhythm but certainly not the only one.
The vowels have their own *kind of* melody.
Has it ever happenned to you that someone says something and you understand a completely different sentence? 90% of the time the vowels match. A simple way to put it would be comparing the repetition of 2 notes, which can hardly be called a melody, to the repetition of 6, which can lead to loops really pleasing to the ear.
>but in terms of form they don't come even close to the better hip hop lyricists
That's fair, but form is the least interesting and compelling facet of poetry to me. Sure, if the content is great and the form is too, then it'd make for an interesting piece of work; but content is more important to me, and hip-hop rarely has very compelling content. I also think that too much of an insistence on rhyming is often to hip-hop lyrics detriment, because it limits the breadth of what can be expressed in a moving way. Like you said about The Raven, it might not be as structurally complex as some hip-hop (and I don't really believe that anyway, but The Raven is much more beautiful and compelling than any hip-hop I've listened to.
Also, multisyllabic and internal rhyming aren't very hard for anyone with a half-decent vocabulary, and I promise you that if the more eminent poets had focused on that they would have outdone any rapper by a mile.
ill go right ahead and be honest i am into rock music and i've really tried to like hip hop with the verry reason being the lyrics, i find many of them whitty or intresting and clever. though i cant get into to it because of the music behind the lyrics, that is what bothers me the most.
>Also, multisyllabic and internal rhyming aren't very hard for anyone with a half-decent vocabulary, and I promise you that if the more eminent poets had focused on that they would have outdone any rapper by a mile.
Well, I'm sure they would have but they didn't, which I consider to be a shame.
thats nice but it doesn't mean that 8-syllable rhymes are "better" or "more musical" than 3 or 1-syllable ones. This points to a fundamental difference in our understandings of music, I think. To me, a melody doesn't have to be fully repeated from one bar to the next in order for it to be melodic. In fact, I consider that degree of repetition to be a negative characteristic.
Yeah, but vowels don't interact with themselves in the harmonic way notes do. The vowel "melody" only becomes aparent through repetition, otherwise we would have plenty of vowel combinations that are particulary pleasant to hear and I don't think we do.
Yeah, it would have been interesting to see what they might have come up with. Also, I don't mean to give the impression that I don't respect or that I dislike hip-hop, because I love it. I largely agree with you that people don't appreciate the lyricism enough, but I just find other lyricists more impressive. Who's your favorite rapper? I'm partial to Andre 3000, and I've been digging what Ishmael Butler has been doing with Shabazz Palaces. Rakim and Q-tip are other favorites.
Sadistik is my favorite because I bonded hard as fuck to his music during a breakup, but 3000 is definitely my runner up. He's just so natural, absolutely born to do this.
Other favorites are Eligh, Big L, Eyedea and Krayzie Bone.
I'm not native tho, so lyrics are not my main concern, which is funny considering how analytic I am when it comes to rhymes.
I disagree that it only becomes apparent through repetition, but I don't think either of us will be winning the other over at this point. I think there are plenty of vowel combinations that are pleasant to hear. Have you never heard a sentence and been struck by how beautiful it is just based on the sounds?
Yeah, but that's usually because of the consonants. Anyway, even if you're right I don't think there's anybody actively trying to come up with vowel combinations that sound pleasant. Maybe they should, though.