What is an avant-teen? I hear it used as an insult all the time to people, and I'm wondering why it's a derogatory term. Does just enjoying certain albums make you an avant-teen? Do you have to act a certain way to be an avant-teen?
For example, I really like Trout Mask Replica (It's one of my all time favorites) and I'm frequently called out for being a mallgoth, avant-teen, or other terms like that. And I don't even act arrogant about it- I'm sometimes called out for just mentioning how much I like it.
>Does just enjoying certain albums make you an avant-teen?
Enjoying? yes. You should be appreciating them. If you actually enjoy (instead of appreciate_ TMR you have just convinced yourself of that.
People don't like that you enjoy an album they don't so they try to invalidate your opinion by grouping you with a subculture full of posturing children.
Which is pretty funny because that's basically /mu/.
its a way to make sure people that listen to underground stuff but not the usual "hipster stuff" feel bad about themselfs
kind of "I dont want be different from you but dont wanna to change myself to be like you (and so dont be different from you), so please stop liking what I dont like, and so I will be able to be like you"
>Not liking something, so assuming others pretend to.
How can one be tipping any harder?
analyze the composition, the technique, the sounds, the sequencing, the singing, the playing, etc. understand why it does or does not work, why people enjoy it or don't, why you may enjoy it or not
This is the best answer.
Nigga just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean that everyone doesn't enjoy it. That's closed minded and not a good way to think about stuff at all
I mean, I personally don't mind it. It kind of reminds me of Zazen Boys.
I'm not crazy about TMR but it's definitely not mallgoth shit or something you have to force yourself to like.
Shit like The Goslings, HANL, Macintosh Plus. That's all stuff that I feel people would have to force themselves to like.
>Nigga just because you don't enjoy
>That's closed minded and not a good way to think about stuff at all
Enjoying or not enjoying is not the correct way to think about it at all.
I honestly enjoy TMR. That's it. I'm not trying to impress anyone, I'm not forcing it, I just like how the sounds make me feel. I can't force you to believe me, or prove it to you, but why is it so hard to believe that someone likes something?
>Some opinions are more correct than others.
What the fuck do you think this is. Animal Farm?
Whatever I say will be made fun of by you anyway. I don't really want to feel bad the rest of the day.
But if you really want an answer then I'll give it to you. I just don't like getting made fun of for liking something, that's all. I probably should' have never posted this anyway
Not coincidentally I'm the only one here not obsessed with "I enjoy it!" or "I don't enjoy it!"
Isn't there a feel thread you should be posting in?
>I dont want be different from you but dont wanna to change myself to be like you (and so dont be different from you), so please stop liking what I dont like, and so I will be able to be like you
holy shit, i've never seen /mu/ summarized so perfectly
What a shitty comeback. I mean, how the FUCK do you get a splinter while grasping for straws? Straws are usually in plastic containers, not boxes. I don't even care about TMR but that was shit.
>nobody is allowed to enjoy dissonance
>nobody is allowed to enjoy free music
>nobody is allowed to enjoy weird lyrics
>nobody is allowed to enjoy anything that doesn't stick to standard rock form
Avant doesn't mean shit unless it has other french words around it.
Avant teen = Literally no meaning
Wrong, because since you were never 0 years of age, it is all offset by one year. Kind of like why the year 2000 was still technically the 90s.
This is why age restrictions end at 21.
>holy shit, i've never seen /mu/ summarized so perfectly
this is not /mu/, this is what the average anti-hipsters/nerd are.
this is why hipster and nerd definition change so much, to be able to group everyone that venture at stuff they wont.
And when being a nerd become "not so bad" we started to have hipsters and then we jump into another thing
Young people are not intelligent enough to really understand what they were listening.
The younger you are and the more complex music you listen to, there's a higher chance you are listening for the wrong reasons. Hence a term was needed to classify this type of individual .
many times it works like that.
some dont hate it but change their ways to be the "average hipster" (whateaver the hell this would be, since there 20+ variatios of the hipster definition) and so be similar to those guys
Again, I'm not professionally trained or anything (but that should be obvious)
This is really embarrassing to post but I may as well be a man about giving some reasons
>twenty doesn't end in teen
Arguing semantics to win an argument?
Also, developmentally there is no difference between a 19 year old and a 20 year old. It's a completely arbitrary definition you invented.
I mean I can see if someone listens to it for significances sake and to look cool, but I don't think its too far fetched to believe that some will geniunely appreciate some of that stuff. And not every teen is lacking in intelligence but I certainly see what you're saying.
>but I don't think its too far fetched to believe that some will geniunely appreciate some of that stuff.
No, not possible.
>And not every teen is lacking in intelligence
Once you get older, you'll see the blunder your comment is.
the entire concept of attaching a number to the amount of time a person has existed is arbitrary. but there's no difference between a twenty-year-old and a 21-year-old, either. it makes no sense to say i was never zero years old, because i was.
Yeah, just as I was re-reading that I realized that it read more as a review on why it's of good quality, not why I personally like it. So sorry about that
though I'm sure you know that it is super hard to say why you enjoy some things? Do you think it did a good job at showing why TMR is good though?
I tried writing it out with numbers for each note to show how they kind of fit together but it got way too fucking confusing
Honestly it's just that they work well together. Right as the right melody ends each time the left one will do its syncopated CHUNK CHUNK CHUNK CHUNK part. Kind of just shit like that
It's hard to explain, and maybe try listening to the song again. I could try to be way more specific if you want but I'll end up making a fool out of myself by misusing words like 'syncopated'
Avant-teen isn't used for stuff like TMR which you could conceivably say sounds good despite being unconventional. It's for stuff that makes very little (if any) sense to be listening to, stuff that entirely lacks anything "pleasant," but is preferred by—out of all people—teenagers on music sites showing off their taste. When asked to explain themselves, they spout some nonsensical philosophy shit or dodge.
>Good Morning Good Night
>Solo Violin Improvisations
This applies to film as well, since most avant-teens do the same thing with all mediums.
>The Colour of Pomegranates
>Anticipation of the Night
>Meshes of the Afternoon
No, it's easy to understand vaporwave still sounding "pleasant" because it's "smooth" and "chill" and whatnot.
What I'm talking about is sounds similar to nails on a chalkboard. Violin screeches, pure sine waves in super high pitches, etc.
Examples of albums that are ACTUALLY popular among avant-teens, for people who aren't familiar:
If you visit the avant corner of RYM, you will see teenagers giving this music five stars and never writing a word about why.
'avant teen' is just yet another device /mu/ posters use to claim superiority. I've been thinking about the topic for a while now, and I've come to some conclusions:
1. When you admit to liking anything, you give others the opportunity to criticize your taste and make (usually false) assumptions about you. This is why posters who make fun of others are often asked to post their own favorites. They rarely do, because it makes then vulnerable. I rarely visit /fa/, but their "talk shit, post a fit" mentality is somewhat refreshing.
This usually works best when you admit to liking something that someone can easily classify as "pleb music". (people can classify anything as pleb music, but its certainly easier to do with more accessible music.)
If you are claiming to like music that is inaccessible or abrasive ("patrician music"), you can turn the tables.
2. Saying you enjoy something that others dont also gives you power. It lets you claim that others "dont get it" due to a lack of intelligence or artistic prowess.
So this is where "avant teen" comes in. Its based on the ultimate comeback for point 2, which is that people who like what you dont like are merely pretending. This strips them of the power given to them by liking it, and it gives you the power to call them a poser, a wannabe patrician, a hipster, etc. This happens most often with albums like TMR or Faust. It even happens preemptively, like in this thread.
Its all pointless, and it makes up 90% of any thread on /mu/.
>This happens most often with albums like TMR or Faust
Not true at all.
Like I said, it's mostly for non-rock, ACTUAL AVANT-GARDE albums, such as these >>48628496
Non-rock is much harder to understand for /mu/, which is why idiots like you try to pretend rock is the only genre.
"Avant-teen" is mostly a RYM meme associated with certain users and their avant-garde favorites.
In fact, the music doesn't even have to be avant-garde in some cases, it just has to strange and be popular among the avant-garde RYM teen community. Example: Zhou Xuan. It's strange because why would an American teenager in 2014 like Chinese pop from 1930?
>It's for stuff that makes very little (if any) sense to be listening to, stuff that entirely lacks anything "pleasant,"
when talking like this about something so subjective as art and the resulting feelings/emotions from it, you come across like an uneducated and inexperienced moron.
Who the fuck cares if someone in the internet thinks you're only pretending to like the music you listen to? It has zero effect on your real life and the guys shouting avant-teen and stuff like that seem to be the guys who only talk about music and have contact with other music fans in the internet.
tl;dr: nerds trying to make themselves feel better
I didn't say it's impossible, I just said it makes very little sense for some teenagers to feel that way, to be such specials snowflakes that they derive pleasure from nails on a chalkboard.
imagining people actually getting upset by some idiotic-sounding term like 'avant teen' is sad, but imagining people actually getting upset by other people enjoying certain forms of art and calling those people avant-teens as a way of trying to belittle them is even more sad.
the point about TMR and Faust was really for the whole "say someone is pretending to like something" thing. Not about "avant teen", sorry if that was confusing.
I never said that rock is the only genre, so idk what that's about.
It makes very little sense to the people who call you an avant-teen, which is why they do so. Sorry if your precious feelings got hurt; maybe tumblr would be a better place for you.
It is true that it has been scientifically proven a lot of those things avant-teens "enjoy" can't actually be enjoyed and you can only pretend you enjoy them. That said, I listen to that kind of music myself but more for the experience than because I "enjoy" it.
>It's strange because why would an American teenager in 2014 like Chinese pop from 1930?
why the fuck cant they? your mindset on what people are allowed to like or not is alarmingly naive
OP here, I'm not talking about the taste of teenagers and why they have it, more about what an avant-teen is. It's used to describe anyone who likes certain albums or music, regardless of whether they're a teen or not
Yeah, I didn't aim that post to you, but to all the other people discussing here whether a teenager can or not genuinely enjoy a certain kind of music, which seems to be a very important and serious subject to some people here.
(obviously I'm trying to imply here that /mu/ just has lots of teenagers fighting about their e-cred because it's still an important thing to them)
Look I didn't save the links but it's been posted many times before. Also, I'm obviously not talking about stuff like Trout Mask Replica or free improv or that sort of stuff. Everyone enjoys that.
No one said they *can't.* It just causes feelings of bewilderment when someone who shuns popular music at large has popular music—from 80 years ago in a foreign country—among their favorites, and completely without explanation. Avant-teens are known for their obsession with being intellectual, which is why they gravitate towards academic avant-garde music and modern classical, but for some reason they also dot their favorites with the strangest pop music, usually from foreign lands. One can't help but assume it's due to the fact that it makes them look "diverse" and "cultured" and aware of both the scope of time and the scope of the entire Earth. Whether or not that's true I don't know, but a lack of certainty won't make anyone immune from reactionary insults.
I know what he's talking about. A news article reported on some study where scientists had people listen to Arnold Schoenberg and Luigi Nono among others, and monitored their brain activity. They didn't have the activity where your brain registers something as music, it just did nothing.
>avant-teen is a RYM meme
no it's not, it's a term coined by /mu/'s teenagers to feel somewhat superior to other teens on another website. if they actually enjoy the music it's irrelevant to the subject. /mu/ talks more about the idiotic term than RYM regulars do
>A news article reported
>They didn't have the activity where your brain registers something as music, it just did nothing
>They didn't have the activity where your brain registers something as music.
Depends on what kind of music we're talking about, I wouldn't be surprised if different music is experienced by different parts of the brain. For example, the part that registers rhythm doesn't necessarily register other musical elements.
to me it refers to the type of person who constantly churns through unnecessary amounts of art, making sure to let other people know they've been doing so
it's pretty embarrassing
>be in a scientific experiment about brain activity while listening to music
>have to listen to a normal piece of music as a test first
>no brain activity detected at all
> it's a term coined by /mu/'s teenagers to feel somewhat superior to other teens on another website
Nope, it was invented by the user joy_circumcision in a self-mocking blogpost he wrote.
thats why I hate these websites where you list every album you have listened to, every movie you've watched, etc. I don't give a fuck about listing every painting Ive viewed and giving it some form of arbitrary "rating", so why would I care about doing this with other artforms? Fuck off.
You might be retarded.
The average person wouldn't process traditional foreign music as music, because they don't use the same scales as us, and they follow a different structure.
Today's pop music wouldn't be considered music 500 years ago.
Weird, 2 is the only one that sounds slightly pleasant to me.
There are many reviews here with very high or perfect scores awarded:
Some of them make very little sense to me, though.
>this sine waves signifies the lack of reality. low frequencies signifies loss of importance of the self. if you believe communism capitalism god etc or if you are living to get a new car or for the tv show you gonna watch tomorrow dont listen to this record. you cant appereciate this recording or you gonna just pretend due to its popularity.
> Perfect ragas of the new millennium.
TMR is one of the most enjoyable albums I've ever heard. I can't be the only one who thinks that?
I'm literally a pleb, my favorite bands are radiohead and animal collective. But tmr is fucking good (after a few listens of course)
Just admit you don't get the album instead of spouting bullshit. You look like an idiot
What? Music is meant to be enjoyed. I am pretty sure captain Beefheart and the band intended people to enjoy their music, not appreciate it in some detached intellectual way. It's a goofy psychedelic rock album
>If there wasn't an artist to create it, then no.
Well that's just, like, your mental limit, maaan.
No, seriously, why would you need an author? E.g. what you see in nature sometimes has an aesthetic value very similar to a painting or a photo.
I saw a listmania on Amazon in 2004 titled "how to be the weird kid at your school" or some shit and it had TMR at the end of the list. Just so you know this isn't a /mu/ thing. People here are so deluded.
How so? Explain
Because it doesn't become art until an artist creates it.
>what you see in nature sometimes has an aesthetic value very similar to a painting or a photo.
Pareidolia =/= art
Note that it isn't avant-teen until you start edging on level 5. Some level 4 stuff may be called avant-teen by people who are on very low levels, but it's not till level 5 that you will be consistently in danger of being called an avant-teen.
wait Wondermoose is an actual known person or whatever?
I got a friend request from him on last.fm a few months ago and I was confused as shit as to why some 15 year old who clearly only wanted to look "cultured" for his musical tastes would add me
How the fuck is Wondermoose an avant-teen? He doesn't even deserve that label because he doesn't listen to avant-garde music outside of like two albums. Even people who are only low-level avant-teens like Notebooks look down on him.
>clearly only wanted to look "cultured" for his musical tastes
He only likes standard /mu/core. There's nothing "cultured' about anything in his favorites.
Compare his favorites to something like
That's my point.
The point of Duchamp's urinal was that he took something with traditionally non-artistic meaning and put it in an artistic context.
Would it stop being an art piece if nobody else saw it? To him there was no external author, he was an author and a consumer at the same time. You can do the same thing with any sound. You might not find some sounds as musical as others, but there will be no need to bring an author figure into the question.
Or to put it another way, everything you experience already has an author via you experiencing it in such and such way, your experience being based on your culture, language, etc... which give the necessary meaning and context to everything.
>The point of Duchamp's urinal was that he took something with traditionally non-artistic meaning and put it in an artistic context.
But he was an artist, thus making it art (because an artist created it)
>Would it stop being an art piece if nobody else saw it?
>You can do the same thing with any sound.
As long as someone is specifically creating the sound to be art
>You might not find some sounds as musical as others
I like that you still think that's what we are talking about
>but there will be no need to bring an author figure into the question.
For it to be art, we do
>everything you experience already has an author
The wind? No. A rock falling onto the ground and making a thud? No.
gotta love how albums randomly chosen from AntiWarhols 4.5s and 5s are considered the highest tier of "patrician" when the people making this chart don't have a clue about any of the genres those albums are from
Come on, anon, you're just repeating everything you've already said without any development.
>The wind? No. A rock falling onto the ground and making a thud? No.
The way we experience those things and attach meaning to it - it does have an author, the author being our conception of it. There is no sound without someone experiencing it.
And I don't need to make a hole in a concert hall and "officially" call the sound of rain falling art. By just listening and emphasizing certain elements of the sound to myself, it already becomes art. Not to say that I will necessarily find it good or interesting - maybe I don't know how to properly listen to texture yet and put too much emphasis on melody or rhythm, so I will find the rain sounds rather dull.
>Come on, anon, you're just repeating everything you've already said without any development.
Well I only work as hard as my opponent
>it does have an author, the author being our conception of it. There is no sound without someone experiencing it.
That's essentially bullshit propaganda non-artists implement to make themselves a part of a process they have no place being in the first place. It's like saying "The critic is the real artist". Give me a break. The logical conclusion of this faulty train of thought is EVERYTHING is art, which delineates the actual work artists put into their craft.
Which is why the notion of the "Death of the artist" is completely antiquated, and we must always consider the artist's intent. When we do that, we realize art can only be art if the artist intended it to be.
In this case, scientists using found sound in a laboratory is not music.
I think like you, but nobody ever understands me. To me 2010 was the last year of the 2000's. My 20's were my last year of being a teen and the XXI century began after midnight dec 31 2000.
On the topic of avant teenness: It means being able to listen to a lot of avant garde music without really understanding what's good about it. I was an avant teen once, I enjoyed noise, downloaded shit ton of unlisteable music and listened to it. I've been going back to this avant garde music lately, I'm 28 now, and I feel like my appreciation of music is much more refined now and is easier to discern what's worth listening to.
Sure, but I'm saying you have too limited conception of author. You seem to think that author can only be external and not internal to the perceiver himself. I'm not claiming that someone's experience of sound is automatically good art, most people can't bring their perception of the surroundings to anything beyond banal unless someone else does the work for them.