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Between Char and Degwin Zabi, who had a larger...
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Between Char and Degwin Zabi, who had a larger effect on the UC being a terrible place for the next 100 years?
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Char, just by nature of being alive
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>>13843539
Depends if Degwin actually murdered Deikun.
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>>13843539
Pretty much Char. I do not know if without him things would be better, but it certainly went like shit because he existed.
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Char literally dindu nuffin.
As for Degwin he gave life to Gihren and Kycilia.Otherwise he looked like a pretty decent guy.
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Did Degwin Zabi even do anything other than call his son Hitler once then fly off to negotiate a ceasefire only to get killed by his Hitler son?
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>>13843539
Char, given that the fact that his failure during the Axis drop was the straw that broke the camel's back. After that, Zeon was never going to make a comeback. Who knows who (probably the Jovians) even had to try and make a copy of him, but Full Frontal just ended up being a hollow shell of a Char, and with him Zeon and dreams of Spacenoid independence ended, and thus started the days of Space Aristocracy and Space Feminism (both sponsored by the Jovians, mind you)
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Very insightful question, I would say though, that it would be Zabi. True Char is an extremist in CCA, but if it weren't for Zabi, then Zeon military wouldn't have been rallied for Char to take advantage of.
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>>13843586
>Space Feminism

Forgive my ignorance, you're referring to Victory, do you?
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>>13843585
He killed, like, 4 billion people.
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>>13843593
Yes
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>>13843539
It depends on how central Char's role in defeating the Titans was. My memory of Zeta is a little shaky. If Char's piloting ability or his speech at Dakar were necessary for the Titan's loss, then that helps make up for his second Neo Zeon, and whatever he did in the name of the Principality.

Degwin might have been able to make up for his damage by bringing the war to an end, but then he got melted in a whirlpool of the light of hatred.
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>>13843782
>his speech at Dakar
I recall it not mattering at all to Zeta's plot. He just did it, and I recall someone telling Jamitov or Bask that support for the Titans had lessened, but nothing of the sort was ever shown. The fact that you can remove such a "crucial plot point" from the ANT movies and still have the plot makes sense just proves how it was ultimately just unneeded fluff, while good for Char's characterization - which, and I'm sure we can all agree on this, they threw out of the fucking window with CCA.
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>>13843623
It's hard to tell when he actually held power, or if he ever did. At some point Gihren effectively takes over and Degwin is just a figurehead, and more-or-less his own son's hostage at that. It's kind of murky about when that happens, though.

The Origin implies that Gihren was always in charge, even before Zeon Deikun's death. The show itself leans more towards Degwin having at least some power up until Garma's death, at which point he just gave up. I tend to think that he was mostly powerless from the beginning and he invested whatever he had in Garma with the hope that his least-shitty son would be able to unseat Gihren, but Char fucked that plan up and he didn't have a backup, so he spent what time he had left slinging petty insults at Gihren for lack of any better alternatives.

If you count all of Gihren's sins against Degwin on account of his perantage, then Degwin's definitely worse than Char by a metric fuckton. If you only count what Degwin actually did, then it depends on what you believe he actually did.
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>>13843795

IDK, I've always liked the idea that Char's sudden change in character for CCA was due to actual brain damage from oxygen deprivation at the end of Zeta, much like Amuro's Dad. Caused him to develop severe mania.
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>>13843795
>Char's characterization - which, and I'm sure we can all agree on this, they threw out of the fucking window with CCA.

Hm, I'm wary that this isn't totally on-topic, but...

If you want to say that Char's characterization was thrown out the window, that's fine, but we should acknowledge that if it ever was thrown out, it was throne out before the end of Zeta. Sure, in the last episode, Char says that he'll wait patiently for humanity to turn into Newtypes, without taking power... but only just after Haman and Scirocco point out the symbolism of Char standing on a stage, playing a role, and on some level aware of his own hypocrisy.

Char being a cowardly hypocrite who isn't honest about what he wants. That's a theme which begins in Zeta's early episodes. I wasn't keen enough to notice it, but I would've if I'd paused the episode where Hayato reads that Engrish-y letter from Kai which spells it out. So when Haman gives Char a last chance to join her in that theatre, we have to wonder if Char wouldn't resort to Haman's militaristic methods. His words can't be trusted, and Haman might know him better than we do. Zeta leaves it an open question, answered by Char's Counterattack.
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>>13843795
>I recall it not mattering at all to Zeta's plot.
IIRC his speech--and the context of his speech--served a fairly major role in the Federation rejecting the Titans and having to abandon Earth. Crucial to the plot or not, it was a thematically significant and character significant part of the series, and its one of several things that ANT unfortunately (and incompetently) excluded or altered. Calling it "fluff" is excessive.
>which, and I'm sure we can all agree on this, they threw out of the fucking window with CCA.
Eh, no. You could argue that Char's character could have been reasonably taken other directions, but the ending we got for him seems natural enough given some of Zeta's insight. CCA is a bit of a clumsy movie, but I don't think Char's characterization is one of its problems, though having ZZ be more relevant would have been a nice segue.
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Neither. They're Space Hitler and Space Osama Bin Laden, respectively. While they're both evil as fuck, the problem was the EF government that didn't treat the cause of the suffering that lent them legitimacy.
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>>13843539
Blame the Federation. Char did nothing wrong.
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>>13843847
>IDK, I've always liked the idea that Char's sudden change in character for CCA was due to actual brain damage from oxygen deprivation at the end of Zeta, much like Amuro's Dad. Caused him to develop severe mania.


Char caracterization wasn't so much thrown out the window as put on the right path. You see Tomino never gave a fuck about Char being in Zeta or (his eventual appearance in ZZ, everyone remembers the opening of ZZ right ?). The real Char has always been the one in CCA. Think of the other Chars as alternate reality takes on the real character.

Char hates Amuro in 0079 for having killed Lalah
Char hates Amuro in CCA for having killed Lalah
Char is all friend and chummy with Amuro in Zeta (does not compute)
Char wants all humanity to evolve and leave earth (0079)
Char wants all humanity to evolve and leave earth (CCA)
Char wants spacenoids to live peacefully with earthnoids in Zeta (does not compute)

There is no discontinuity in how he is characterized between 0079 and CCA. The odd one out is his characterization in Zeta which runs contrary to what he did and wished in 0079 and contrary to what he wants and will do in CCA. That is why Char's story goes from 0079/movies -> CCA. Zeta is inconsequential for Char's character notwithstanding what Zetafags might wish.
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>>13844021
Char probably could've rallied a new Zeon at any time after the OYW. His vendetta became public knowledge throughout the earth sphere and he was basically a living legend.
What you don't get is he thought he could take the long road by joining the AEUG. Maybe he could've stuck to it if Haman and Axis hadn't come calling.
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>>13844021
>Char is all friend and chummy with Amuro in Zeta
They just had a drink (although it is an important one). It's not like they were best bros throughout the series.

I normally just think of Zeta having Char incidentally being on the "good" side. If Char always wanted people to evolve into newtypes and leave earth, it makes sense that he'd work with the AEUG against the Titans.
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>>13844021
Char is in love with Amuro. He's always talking about him even when he's not there and tries to sense him with his newtype powers.
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Except without Char we don't get Affrachi Char, so eventually he does do some good? If only because Affranchi doesn't want to be a huge fuck-up like his progenitor?
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zeon zum deikun
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>>13843583
This
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Degwin either directly caused the deaths of billions of people or else gave significant support to letting it happen.

Char ensured that Zeon continued to persist long past when it should have died, and had the opportunity to do far more good for Spacenoid independence cause than Degwin could have. If Char had been patient, if he had used his phenomenal wealth and status for good, he could have been the greatest hero of the Universal Century.

Degwin was a greater monster, but had always been a monster. Char was a lesser monster, but could have saved the world. It's up to you to decide which is worse.
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Roux Louka because she killed the messiah
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>>13844021
I always thought that Zeta about Char trying to change himself and try to be a better person.

Then he gets pissed off with the Feds and goes back to being his old self.
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>>13843841

0079's setting notes states that Degwin was the one that started the build-up towards war, with it implying that this was done to put Deikun's views into action.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/gundamsetting.html

"After Zeon Zum's death, his successor Degwin Zabi actively began preparations for war against the Earth Federation."

This isn't exactly stated in the show, but I do get the feeling that, from what's shown in the show Degwin had a lot of power in the past, but gave up after Garma's death, which jives with the setting notes.
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>>13843899
With what ends up happening in ZZ and CCA Haman's butthurt during Zeta ends up being pretty extremely justified. Haman pretty much followed Char's ideals while he was busy lying his ass off, and totalitarian government is a less arsehole plan than mass genocide.
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>>13843841
>The Origin
Stopped right there.
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>>13843539
Degwin Zabi. He made the Principality out of Republic, killed Zeon Deikun, put his awful children in power, agreed to use the colony drops and Solar Ray gun. And their politics made Minovsky flee from Side 3.
If not for Zabi's actions, the Republic of Zeon wouldn't be associated with the genocide and other horrors.
>>13843586
Calling Zanscare space femenism is wrong. This is just a religious state, which reminds me of Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. All their "role of women" thing is more about being kind and caring. And executions with the guillotine.
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>>13844143
Actually, Char did some good things. Like saving the curry newtype from her awful life on Earth. Or being a mentor to Kamille.
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>>13844371
Hassan, you can't kill the Messiah.
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>>13843841
The Origin isn't even the same stream as original UC. If you're gonna use non-Tomino stuff as reference you should be using Ark Performance material which actually sticks true to the canon and simply enhances/justifies/rationalizes the retarded shit everyone otherwise laughs over. Those fucking guys could probably write M'Quve into a real threat.
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>>13844743
Char could have done a lot more good if he just gave Haman the dick.
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>>13844900
You can't give it to someone you don't like.
Thread replies: 39
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