>>13833606 It's like what >>13833625 said, you like it or you hate it. SEED and Destiny had been the only non meta series I hadn't seen yet, on account of them getting such a bad rep (largely on /m/ though, most other places seem to love it), but I watched SEED in January and was surprised by how enjoyable it was and how much I liked it, despite seeing /m/ hate on it for years. I mean it looks pretty fucking ugly, but the Strike and the Freedom look great in themselves, and the grunt units are kind of cool. You have to realise most of it is based on UC Gundam designs, so don't expect too many unique things. The action isn't too good, and there are some bits of melodrama, but it largely depends on you how much it detracts from the show. Personally, I really don't think SEED had exponentially more melodrama than an UC series, and what melodrama it did have was like "Haha, holy shit this is crazy". It's hard to say, OP. How much do you regurgitate or mimic the mass opinion you see on 4chan? Because if you're one of those whose opinions are just carbon copies of general opinions you read on 4chan, then you'll make yourself hate it. If not, I still can't say whether or not it's worth your time, because my favourites are Turn A, 0079 and Victory, and my least favourites are 08th MS Team, 00 and Zeta, but I still really liked SEED.
>>13833606 It's mediocre at best. Most I can say about it is I like allot of the mechanical designs, and ideas that the universe has.
For the majority of the first part it isn't too offensive, but about the time Kira gets the freedom, it kind of spirals, and it wasn't much to begin with, it just wasn't horrible, hell I wouldn't even say it went full on horrible until Destiny, but that's not the time or place for that. It just went from mediocre to relatively bad.
At the end of the day it's a kinda shitty rehash of 0079, with more generic anime tropes, tons of stock footage (Worse in the second half but not great in the first half either) and a criminally underused, and unexplored genetics theme that could have made it interesting had the writer, and the director not have been two total hacks.
Are the grunt suits interesting? Sorta...I mean not really for the most part, we have GM's on one side that are pretty much GM's that swap packs, though we don't see much of that there, the other side we have a kinda Zeon-esq thing going, pretty heavy handed in Destiny but in SEED they look good. There's also not!zoids which are some of my favorite designs in the show, those were cool.
The grunts are, as usual, better explored in side works with variants and such and there are some cool ones. As a whole the side works are okay, to pretty good in the case of Stargazer, so maybe watch it for that I guess. As a whole I say I do like the CE, quite a bit actually, the series them selves? Not so much aside from some mech designs.
I might not be remembering correctly but I never understood the logic for when Kira is injured in his fight with Athrun why does that priest take Kira to Lacus's mansion on Zaft? The priest's church was on Earth so it would make more sense just to keep him there and take care of him since they don't do any intensive medical care for him anyways but instead he travels with an unconscious man through space to Zaftland, which is under heavy surveillance because of the war, to take him to Lacus and he didn't have any clue that Kira knew her at all. Also Kira literally just walks through Zaft base and gets a free Gundam because no guard asks Lacus what the fuck she is doing.
I liked it. The music was great (arguably some of the best in Gundam), as was the MS design and general setting. However I can definitely see peoples' problems with it: namely the characters, the lazy writing and overuse of stock footage.
As a standalone show, I'd say it's successful albeit unremarkable. The main problem lies with it's sequel (Destiny) and how thoroughly it screws the pooch so bad it retroactively makes SEED look worse.
Oh, and watch the original DVD version. Not the remaster.
>>13833724 Honestly, I find the remastered footage clashes with the older (upscaled) animation, not to mention the show itself really wasn't made for widescreen televisions so forcibly cropping it to 16:9 screws with the framing in a lot of scenes.
Also as a videophile I find the practice of cropping 4:3 shows to 16:9 abhorrent. Looking at you Funimation.
>>13833740 I kinda actually wish that SEED was done now, or at least the Remaster was just a set of Compilation movies that had consistent animation, because in fairness, the actual HD MS scenes look stunning
>>13833722 That's a Jedi power, I thought? I don't claim to be an expert in star wars. It was more the fact that it's Miss Lacus and everyone does what Miss Lacus says, unless you're actively fighting her.
>>13834495 >Astray only explained how he survived the explosion, not how he magically teleports to outer space. It does "explain" that part. Meaning, the fucking priest does whatever the fuck he wants, because of "something or other Lacus-sama".
The first half of SEED is good with Kira being an actual character and the show presenting a pretty complex setting.
In the second half however Kira becomes a Gary Stu and all that initial complexity is exposed as a bluff. None of the subjects (cloning, genetic engineering, politics) is explored beyond an extremely superficial level and the antagonists are just mustache-twirling extremists.
The character designs are pretty ugly and sameface, the soundtrack is god-tier. As it had been said the gurnts are UC clones and ok.
Despite its issues, it had a few redeeming qualities and it's a 4/10.
Destiny on the other hand manages to shit on the few good things SEED had while expanding on its problems (like the shitty melodrama or Kira being Jesus) and manages to make SEED retroactively worse.
>>13834569 >The first half of SEED is good with Kira being an actual character and the show presenting a pretty complex setting. The first half of SEED is a poorly-made copy of 0079, with some elements from other series (Wing, Cyber Formula, Dendoh). There's little in it that didn't appear in other shows
>the soundtrack is god-tier It's pretty bad. Sahashi abuses the brass and synth instruments, as if he was compensating for some deficiency. Some tracks are good, but they're a minority on a below-average OST. Destiny's was a marked improvement.
>and manages to make SEED retroactively worse. SEED was awful in and on itself. It does not (and did not) need Destiny in the slightest in order to be a shitty anime.
>As it had been said the gurnts are UC clones and ok. Whereas shows like Wing, X, 00 and Tekketsu attempt to breathe some awesome identity into the mass-produced units, SEED treated them awfully. Okawara was being lazy thanks to Fukuda's inane requests like adding wings, thrusters or head crests. And the show itself, thanks to its emphasis in Gundam v. Gundam battles, reduces them to a teriary role.
>>13834661 >Why would they? She's a princess The "princess" title people pin on Lacus is tongue-in-cheek. She's the daughter of the ZAFT Chairman and a pop singer. Nothing more. She had no business being in a military facility.
>The main question is why that is, considering he lives on an island with a bunch of children. In yet another shoddy attempt by Kouichi and Tokita to fill SEED's potholes, it's said that Malchio is a "peace activist and ambassador". You wonder why he doesn't have a more active role during the war, rather than being isolated from almost everything bad in his orphanage island.
>>13834659 Really? Cuz the jet pack and horn look amazing. The original zaku ii is superior in every regard.. but.. the Ginn is not "bad" by any stretch of the imagination It's an issue of taste. Nobody is right or wrong because we are talking subjectively about cartoon robots..
>>13834679 >Cuz the jet pack and horn look amazing They look incredibly stupid, especially the horn.
>The original zaku ii is superior in every regard.. What I said is that every design in that image is better-looking than the fucking GINN. And, again, its diminished role in the series compared to the others makes it very difficult to get interested in it.
>>13834695 >But anon the fact that a bunch of people are willing to live and die by her imperious order implies that she's NOT just a pop singer That's in Destiny, not SEED. Unlike you, I can tell the difference.
The horn is literally the only good design element of the GINN though. It's far superior to the moulded horns of the Zaku heritage line which look awful on more complex designs like the Geara Doga or the F91 Zaku
Dumbed down version of the original Gundam that pretty much becomes one of the super robot shows the original was trying to break away from. It's pretty shallow by the end.
Generic, but serviceable. Definitely get weaker in the last part of the series when the tone shift occurs.
Lacus is Japan's Bella Swan though.
> MS Designs
Some are okay, others look more like they'd belong more in a show like Build Fighters.
Didn't really stand out to me.
The series has a pretty good start and there are some compelling bits. However, by the end these are thrown away as the director embraced a black and white mindset. It's not shit, but far from the masterpiece it was once claimed to be.
Here's one thing that bugged me about the show. During the last act, it kept showing us the faces of the soldiers as they take glee in slaughtering their enemies. But then, there's a soldier who helps Athrun and Cagalli get to Genesis's control room and they black his face out. It's an uneven treatment that really bugs me, as it's trying to paint soldiers in the worst light it can and shrugs them off when they're helping the heroes.
In a way, it shows how childish SEED's version of "war is hell" is. In the original Gundam, the show made the Zeon soldiers out to be decent people who were sympathetic. SEED paints it's enemies as unimportant minions, and it couldn't even be bothered to give Azrael's motivation in the original version. Hell, Fukuda was surprised people were interested in the Druggies and wanted to know their backstories in one interview.
>>13834882 >SEED paints it's enemies as unimportant minions
Only in the last half anon
The first half of SEED makes a point of either naming or mourning everyone Kira kills (MIGUEEELLLL! MAYLAAAAAM! OLORRRRRR! etc), as well as having a significant focus on the antagonist pilots, and sympathetic EF soldiers as well
The second half of SEED has the druggies and murderous EF soldiers
>>13834890 They're crying over characters we don't know, and the sympathetic ZAFT soldiers join team Kira by the end. Even Waltfield, who Fukuda decided to bring back from the dead because of how cool he was.
It ties into how hamfisted SEED is with it's message later on. War is bad, m'kay.
>>13834931 >Azrael was an extremely uninspired bad guy. >Le genocidal madman with his brainwashed savage soldiers. With him (and Patrick Zala as well), it's pretty clear that the writing staff (ie. Morosawa) wasn't even doing a minuscule effort to make us care about the war beyond a handful of characters. It works in a soap opera or a low-key story like War In The Pocket, sure, but not here.
Politics and war drama were one of the key elements that made Gundam a hit. In fact, "gundan" (written in kanji as 軍談) means "war story". I refuse to believe that was just a funny coincidence on Tomino's part.
>>13835038 >With him (and Patrick Zala as well), it's pretty clear that the writing staff (ie. Morosawa) wasn't even doing a minuscule effort to make us care about the war beyond a handful of characters
I liked Patrick
I thought they should have made Patrick and Siegel like Athrun and Kira though to borrow Tomino's core concept
>>13834882 >there's a soldier who helps Athrun and Cagalli get to Genesis's control room and they black his face out. It's an uneven treatment that really bugs me, as it's trying to paint soldiers in the worst light it can and shrugs them off when they're helping the heroes. You mean this shot, right? I'm nor sure if that guy is a ZAFT or Orb pilot...
>>13833606 I liked it. Honestly, the fact that /m/ had me expecting the worst plate of shit soup in the history of bad storytelling probably helped me like it, because it's pretty much impossible for any show to actually meet the expectation of how bad /m/ says SEED is. The Hiraiface is not pleasant, no use denying that. Kira looks 100% better when he's off-model. There is a lot of reused footage, and two back-to-back recap episodes if you watch the dvd version instead of the remaster. Apparently the remaster trimmed that back, but also redrew a bunch of scenes to be on-model with the Hiraiface so I watched the dvd version, and I found it to be a lot better than I was expecting.
This. However UC fags have this obession that Gundam is mature and supposed to be better than your average anime because one or two UC shows directed by a completely different guy were and therefore all Gundam needs to be like that so they can feel better about watching a show directed at Japanese boys to sell plastic models.
>>13834678 >She's the daughter of the ZAFT Chairman and a pop singer. Nothing more.
She's Siegal's political heir and expected to take over his political power and organziation, and she was trained as such (This is how politics usually work in Japan).
The pop singer part however was a stupid idea there to whore music and it really conflicts with where they actually wanted to take Lacus's character. But she's supposed to be more than that. They really should have cut that out form the start though.
>>13835699 >She's Siegal's political heir and expected to take over his political power and organziation, and she was trained as such There's absolutely nothing in the show that proves that. She was a pop singer in the series and treated as such. Stop making shit up. You sound like the Tumbler Twats with their "headcanon" nonsense
> (This is how politics usually work in Japan). Except for the fact that ZAFT is not Japan.
>The pop singer part however was a stupid idea there to whore music and it really conflicts with where they actually wanted to take Lacus's character. You have that backwards, dumbass.
>But she's supposed to be more than that. They really should have cut that out form the start though. What we saw on the story was that Lacus was thrown into extraordinary circumstanced when the Clynes were considered traitors (by her actions, no less). No proof whatsoever of "political inheritance" or "taking over her father's politics". That's just crap you do as a fan of SEED to make yourself feel better. It is not real.
Seed had some ok designs but that wasn't really my problem. The *real* problem is they look much better in still "buy the toy" shots. Stockfootage and still firing shots are great but then you see them ACTUALLY move and it's kinda....sad. Even the remaster is prone to quick bursts of quality when they're actually moving.
As for the plot, first Seed isn't really that horrible. While not a favorite, I personally enjoyed Orb: The Shitwreckening. Endgame was lame, but final boss was fun if not rather simple in motivation.
>>13835255 >>13834907 Are you seriously forgetting SEED's famous insistence on actually SHOWING grunt pilots who are killed in the later part? Nobody remembers random fuck dead BuCUE guy #3 because he had a name near as much as the poor bastards that gruesomely died in the later episodes.
>>13834882 >It's an uneven treatment that really bugs me, as it's trying to paint soldiers in the worst light it can and shrugs them off when they're helping the heroes.
I would assume the likelier explanation is that since the had no plans for that guy to die, there was no need to give him a face since he wouldn't be needed to emote any cheap emotional last moments. On the other hands it would do good for those random jacks slated to die to have a face because otherwise some helmeted faceless pilots with scream sfx playing as their MS blows up isn't going to be as effective in holding viewer attention.
tl;dr that soldier is considered less important to the overall narrative of the show than the guys that are dying. Of course, whether this was a collective agreed decision by the production crew or another one of Fukuda's idiosyncrasies, I have no idea.
>>13834709 the horns are easily the most stupid, superfluous part I've ever seen added on to a mobile suit, the horns on a zaku work and serve their purpose, the horn on the GINN is like if someone looked at the tallgeese and said "how can I make the top more ridiculous?"
>>13834911 >People like to shit on the Destiny druggies more, but the fact is that Stellar, Aeul and Sting were actual characters who did something in the show.
I think you're confused, because while they weren't entirely 1 dimensional, 2/3rd of these characters amounted to nothing, and they're literally half the named cast of the Earth Alliance side, and 3/4ths of the named pilots!
What did Sting do? What did Auel do? Nothing really. They both got killed by Shinn? Is that doing something? I mean, it's not like they were used to explore any themes or anything.
Honestly? I prefer the Druggie Trio, because they might be characterless fucksticks, they could at least put up a decent fight. We hardly got any character out of these guys, and the interesting battles we were shown at the start of the series quickly dwindled to nothing.
>>13836229 Blame the direction of the show. Having 90% of the battles be over water killed what Stellar, Luna and Rey could do. Then you had Auel just swimming around underwater and Neo only launched in 1 of those battles iirc. The show was handled terribly.
>>13836229 >Honestly? I prefer the Druggie Trio, because they might be characterless fucksticks, they could at least put up a decent fight. Listen, just because they did marginally better than the Extended, it doesn't mean that the fucking druggies were competent in the least. At the very least, the Extended weren't shooting at each other.
To be honest with you, I've never liked this "trio of bad guys in Gundams" that AUs like to pull, but the SEED druggies are especially detestable, since (apart from being utterly unlikeable as characters (in my personal case, even more than fucking Kira Yamato)) it's blatantly obvious they were created in a hurry when the plot realized that they had run out of antagonists halfway through.
>>13836339 >they were just some on the side battles while the main enemey was still Rau in the end. Wrong. From the moment the Archangel leaves Alaska, they're the main antagonists. Rau only comes out as the main foe at the very end, with the Providence (which was also forced, since there wasn't an active dynamic of conflict between him and Kira throughout the series).
>>13836229 I still laugh at how Aeul died, it was such a sudden and nonsense kill that I kept waiting for him to reappear together with Sting, I mean Shinn was just raging at Kira and threw his javeling at him while not even looking and went after Kira
>>13836415 >INSTEAD OF THAT REMASTERED ABOMINATION THAT FUCKS UP BATTLES AND EVEN CHARACTER DESIGN Wrong. The Remaster fixes the character designs from the off-model shots, thanks to having character designer Hisashi Hirai as Animation Director. (the fact that Hirai's work is utter dog shit is besides the point)
>>13836829 color isn't always able to be distinguished, but if they catch a shadow of it they'll see the horn and know it's him. it's about the silhouette of the zaku more than how it looks just looking at it.
>>13833606 It's really not as bad as /m/ makes it out to be. Honestly, that's mostly an old meme that never seems to die (mostly because Destiny was actual fucking garbage and the reason /m/ exists in the first place). It's really bland and mediocre at worst. It's worth a watch if you're just tryna watch all of Gundam. Hell, there's even a few moments where it's genuinely good, just don't expect it to leave much of an impression overall.
Whether or not you watch Destiny is your call, but just know that it's all of the bad shit people accuse SEED of being and then some. Debatably a rite of passage. Don't be fooled by the first 15-16 or so episodes.
>>13836861 Minus the fact that he said that Turn A, 0079 and Victory were his favorites, all three of which are more or less the objective best Gundams. Seriously, Turn A alone is probably the single best thing to come out of the franchise.
>>13836901 >all three of which are more or less the objective best Gundams For Tomino fanboys, maybe. The pinnacle of the franchise is still War In The Pocket, despite it having very little in regards to mobile suit combat.
>>13836879 >Sensor array, being actually plausibly large enough to do anything as one. The only place that names the GINN crest as a "sensor array" is the Wikia (The Home of Fandom™!). And you know how reliable is that cesspool.
>>13836959 >You know the manga is still going, right? Yes, I do know that. There's this new sukeban character and there's a bunch of girls going after Tomoki's dick. That doesn't mean that there's a large interest for it as it was in 2012. Casuals moved on to One Punch Man and masturbating to Tatsumaki.
>>13836907 > And stop using the word "meme": you sound like an idiot. But that's literally what /m/'s unending hate boner for Seed is. Nothing more, nothing less. This is not a show that deserves nearly the amount of discussion it gets and has gotten for the past ten fucking years.
>>13836966 >It's in the HG manual retard. Manuals are absurdly unreliable as a source. Strike Freedom's origins were retconned like three times from HG to PG (dunno if the RG did it too).
>Not that you need it to see the mohawk camera and parts sticking out of destroyed GINNs. You could've least put a screencap.
And, we were talking aesthetics. The Stahlhelm-like GINN head looked great on itself. It didn't need the stupid crest (regardless of any "logical" justification it was given subsequently). Also, why does it need such a large sensor? What's the monoeye for, then?
>>13836910 I haven't seen Victory, but for some reason i feel like it probably falls short of Z and 0079. I like Turn A a lot but not as much as Z, about as much as 0079 though. 08th imo was tied with 0080 for best Gundam OVA, because they were both very good, but in different departments entirely. 0083 was easily the worst of those three OVAs because of incredibly poor writing in the last quarter of the series, but admittedly it looked great. ZZ was surprisingly good, but it sits behind 08th. CCA is kinda hard to rate honestly, and I'm still not sure how i feel about it. I think I liked f91 a little more, but they were both great.
You keep saying that ZAFT are hollow bad guys... but they have a legitimate gripe... Hundreds of thousands of them were murdered by the earth forces, all the while, the earth wouldn't grant them autonomy.
I liked Both SEED and Destiny, and I watched both after seeing people bitch about them here. I watched them last because i was cautious since people bitched about them. I accept that they have flaws, but whether you like them or not is really going to be random. I also personally think the CE has my favorite designs in the franchise
>>13837543 >I liked Both SEED and Destiny, and I watched both after seeing people bitch about them here. >I also personally think the CE has my favorite designs in the franchise
>whether you like them or not is really going to be random. Wrong. It's not random. The way to determine whether you're going to like SEED and/or Destiny is that if you have extraordinarily low standards, such as yourself.
I mean, you like the designs of this garbage better than Katoki's work on Wing or Victory? Or Kawamori's on Stardust Memory? Or Izubuchi's on either CCA or War In The Pocket? Because either of them are much better than the abominations Okawara excreted for SEED.
>>13838924 He's a blind preacher who is loyal to Lacus. Both ZAFT and the EA trust him so for some reason he's an ambassador between the two groups. Also has ties with the Junk Guild and at one his people point tried to steal an NJC to supply to the EA (X Astray) in order to end the energy crisis.
>>13838951 >steal an NJC to supply to the EA (X Astray) in order to end the energy crisis. You mean the same Earth Alliance that was led by the nose by fucking Azrael into using those very NJCs to nuke ZAFT (a pointless act of massacre), rather than fixing the energy crisis? >(second post in this image)
>>13841401 The big moment was when they decided to stay on the Archangel after Flay chose to "not be useless", telling Kira to enjoy life and the power of friendship dooming a little girl to an early grave. I actually really enjoyed all those little SOL moments their group had at the beginning, all those small humane moments are some of the only redeeming features of this show.
>>13842030 I remember when Kira makes up with Sai and he says "there are a bunch of things you can do that I can't" or something. I was all "name one. Name one goddamn thing Sai is better than you at."
Granted, that would require the characters not being so horribly generic and shallow.
They still do till they descend to earth, just very sparingly. Sai helping him take Lacus back and asking him to come back to them, them taking over AA jobs to help him, etc. Not really enough to sell that he's willing to throw himself into war for them though.
Once Flay gets her hooks into him though they stop interacting with him for the most part.
The weird thing is there's the very obvious other thing of him not being a Plant citizen and just wanting to go back to Orb and that's another good reason why he won't just let Athrun take him back to Plant.
Much like Destiny though,Seed has characters give pretentious speeches over actual sound reasons.
>>13838252 >The way to determine whether you're going to like SEED and/or Destiny is that if you have extraordinarily low standards I have extraordinarily low standards, and SEED/Destiny still stood out to me as singularly bad.
I just got to episode 24, the island episode, the 23 first ones were mostly a mediocre, mediocre 0079 pasta but that last episode was downright pants on head retarded. I take it things go south from now on?
Holy fucking shit that was retarded. The first bit was meh, I can kinda get behind this...kinda Then it goes full retard around episode 30 or so... Jesus fucking christ. The level of angst was full autism. Who the fuck thought the strike dagger was a good idea? Like "yeah let's make a GM for seed, but make it awesome, but terribad, and give it plot armor, but not really." Seriously it's like all the guys who made seed sat down and we're like "let's design a special snowflake grunt suit that is amazingly kick ass, but also terrible... let's combine the Leo and a gundam!" Thus the dagger was born, and holy shit was it disappointing. Not to mention the fucking ginns. What the fuck? Ep1-3 ginns are good! They can take on a gundam easily. The rest of the show they are role playing fucking leos, and dying in droves.
Also: i couldn't pin down where the fuck all of this shit was going, then it just kinda ended, like what the fuck?
People say kamille is a fucking autist... they have never seen seed. Kira Yamato literally abandons everything he should stand for cuz "muh feelingz" and forced romance. Holy shit. I'm sorry I ever doubted any of you /m/ Seed was the most autistic, derivative bag of donkey cocks I have ever forced myself to endure. Fucking shit
I honestly thought about killing myself after watching all of SEED and Destiny. All that time wasted watching melodramatic shit, and the worst part is, I let myself do it. After finishing both series, I started exercising, reading more books, focusing on girls, etc. I even finally lost my virginity.
So yes, I would say watch them in order to gain a new perspective on life.
Why does everyone in the show become incomprehensible drones who cannot understand anything and keep prattling on about finding the "answers" after coming into contact with her? Why doesn't she act like a human? I cannot make sense of what she says but everyone in the show is floored every time she talks.
>>13842706 >Once Flay gets her hooks into him though they stop interacting with him for the most part. That's exactly what I'm talking about though. Pretty early on, he stops interacting with his friends at all.
>>13843804 >Why does everyone in the show become incomprehensible drones who cannot understand anything and keep prattling on about finding the "answers" after coming into contact with her?
She's a coord and a singer, she's also the first product of ZAFT research into bio-sonic psychological warfare. Her vocal cords essentially enable her to brainwash all those not protected against it. Seigel, who originally espoused a "clean gloves" victory for ZAFT with his original Songtress project and the later N-Jammer seeding and told no one of the horrors he had inflicted upon his embryonic daughter, is dead; no longer is there anyone left in the Earth Sphere that is aware of this grave and world-ending threat.
>>13843804 The director was a freaking idiot who doesn't believe anime should be that serious. He had to be told to make SEED a war story for crying out loud (he wanted to make it a super robot story). He didn't give any care to the politics or the issues present in the show, he just wants things to go in an exciting, yet very simple-minded, way.
What you are looking at there is his mouthpiece, there to turn Kira from a whiny bitch into the type of hero the director likes and believes is cool.
>>13843996 True, but it just goes to show why Fukuda was a bad choice to lead the project. SEED was advertised as the 21st Century Version of 0079, and Fukuda is rejecting the very things that made the original special.
>>13833606 I only watched the first episode but I can already tell the animation is dated, all the characters are cliched and the storytelling is all over the place. I do like the music and the pilot suits though.
I suppose it will become worse later on but a lot of flaws are also present in other Gundam series so not sure if it really is that terrible. Still not gonna watch Seed Destiny however cause I am too scared.
>>13845327 Then tell me, oh wise one. What flaws are entirely unique that you can't find in other Gundams? Melodramatic scenes? BS characters who aren't consistent at all and plotlines that are never revolved or get sidelined for no real reason? Stock footage? Pretty sure none of those are unique to Seed.
>>13845414 >Melodramatic scenes? BS characters who aren't consistent at all and plotlines that are never revolved or get sidelined for no real reason? Stock footage? Actually all those are unique to SEED, you don't see anyone complain about any of those aspects in any Gundam anime barring WING and stock footage.
>>13845997 Inconsistent characters = CCA Melodrama = Victory and sometimes Zeta gets some shit for it Plotlines = arguably most series in one way or another
>>13845989 What the hell do you mean? People usually think SEED alone is boring and anemic but not a disaster, AGE was a dumb kiddy concept that started with potential but divebombed hard and Destiny was shit without restraint. /m/ isn't a hivemind but this is what I usually see.
>>13846084 >Inconsistent characters = CCA Let me guess, you're one of those retards that didn't pay attention watching Zeta and thinks Char becoming leader of Neo Zeon is "out of character". >Melodrama = Victory and sometimes Zeta gets some shit for it Those get shit on for bad writing and Tominoisms not melodrama and given Victory's reception here it makes your claim unfounded. >Plotlines = arguably most series in one way or another So you were bullshitting.
>People usually think SEED alone is boring and anemic but not a disaster, Once again, quit pulling shit out your ass.
>>13846136 >you don't see anyone complain about any of those aspects in any Gundam anime Not my opinions retard, I'm saying that a lot of discussion goes into these things. I enjoyed CCA and I love Victory and Zeta, I don't participate in them but you'd have to be blind not to see how many "Char's Character Assassination" threads or "Just finished Zeta, why do people like this melodramatic shit" there are. Granted some are shitposting but there are enough real ones out there to support my claim that people talk about them, even if the reasoning is largely unfounded.
As for SEED, that's what I've seen and that's how I feel. Maybe it's just confirmation bias.
>>13846209 Okay, I'm going to try. It's going to take a few posts but I'll try to cover everything.
For starters, SEED wasn't universally beloved. It got kids into Gundam, and it certainly got fujoshi but there was one group that had issue with the show. The hardcore Gundam/mecha community, which derided SEED as being too childish at the time. These are the guys who will buy gunpla even as adults, and they were worried about the direction Gundam was going in.
So, when Destiny was announced they were trying to paint it as this more mature, somber series. They were trying to appease the older fans. However, there was one problem with this.
His name is Mitsuo Fukuda, and he was the director of SEED. Fukuda doesn't really understand why anime tries to be serious from time to time, his only concern is making his shows exciting. In fact, after SEED finished he said in interviews that he did certain things (like Andy coming back) because he thought it was cool. It even went so far as him saying he wanted to bring Gundam back to it's roots, and by roots he clarified with the types of shows the original Gundam was trying to break away from. Stuff like Combattler V, the Super Robot shows Gundam was an answer to. Why? Because according to him kids think those are the coolest.
Then you have the other problem, Chiaki Morosawa. This woman was in charge of series composition for SEED, basically making an outline of the ways things should happen before handing it off to the scriptwriters. She is also Fukuda's wife.
For Destiny, it was decided she should take over script writing duties. This is a lot more demanding task and professionally, Morosawa had very little experience writing scripts, less than 20 between '96 and '04. Most of these were for OVAs, which has a FAR more relaxed schedule than a weekly series.
And did I mention, to cash in on SEED's popularity they wanted Destiny to begin in a year? Most shows have around 2 years of planning before they begin airing.
It's needless to say Morosawa couldn't keep up with the workload, and this was made worse by her health issues. Many people say she had brain cancer (due to the different quality of the scripts) but according to her Japanese article on wikipedia, it was uterine fibroids and an ovarian cyst. People still use cancer to explain why the movie never materialized, but she had a hysterectomy around the time of SEED/Destiny.
>>13846311 So, scripts were coming in late. If the scripts are late, they can't animate the story. And if they don't have the animation, they can't voice the characters. That's just the way the process works.
According to the animators, scripts were written to constantly reuse as much existing footage as they could. Flashbacks, stock footage, repurposing animation from SEED, you name a shortcut Fukuda was all over it. The animation department was pissed.
Also, those two clip shows in the final cour? You don't do that unless the production is going to shit. Wing had them because they were changing head writers. Destiny had them because Morosawa's scripts came in too late to make actual episodes, and Sunrise was contractually obligated to provide the station something for each week they rented.
>>13846351 According to Maaya Sakamoto, Destiny was hard on all the voice actors. And it would be. If the animation is that far behind, the voice acting would be cutting it close. To make matters worse, Fukuda likes to employ celebrities and a-list VA's in his works. Some of these guys weren't fans of Gundam and wouldn't rearrange their schedule for Destiny. So Destiny had to oblige them.
Heine, like Miguel, was voiced by TM Revolution. He is there for no reason other than to use TM Revolution's star power. And when they couldn't afford him anymore, they killed him off.
There's various quotes from the cast. Ishida (Athrun) doesn't understand why Athrun would return to ZAFT, have a problem with Kira, then decide to join Kira and turn his back on the Minerva. Tanaka has said that Lacus was the hardest role she ever had due to how unemotional Lacus was. She preferred playing Meer. There's rumors of bad blood between Morosawa and Cagalli's VA (Naomi Shindo), with reasons ranging from Morosawa accusing her of flirting with Fukuda to Shindo complaining about how Cagalli is being portrayed. Sometimes, people say that Kenichi Suzumura (Shinn) stood up for Shindo and the way the show turned out was Fukuda and Morosawa getting revenge. Andrew Waltfield's VA has said he peeked at Fukuda's copy of the script, only to see it blank.
Supposedly, when the staff was busting their ass trying to meet the deadlines, Fukuda and Morosawa left to go to a concert.
>>13846388 >Sometimes, people say that Kenichi Suzumura (Shinn) stood up for Shindo and the way the show turned out was Fukuda and Morosawa getting revenge. Suzumura does say that the SRW Z version of Shinn is the one he thought he was going to get to play and as far as he's concerned that's the 'true' version of the character
If you can find the SRW Z magazine promotions, they have an interview with him where he says just that. Just bringing it up because we have a lot of rumors based on GSD and it's nice to have a source for once.
>>13846388 One thing I forgot to mention about Shindo, she refuses to work with either Fukuda or his wife again. It took almost a decade for her to voice Cagalli, and that was for the Dynasty Warriors guys who she has a long-standing relationship with.
Then it comes down to the plot going off the rails as the scripts were rewritten. Suzumura has said many times than when he was brought on, Shinn wasn't supposed to end up the villain. The developers of Generation of CE promoted their game with the announcement that it had the originally planned ending of Destiny, and none of it's endings had Kira turning into humanities champion. Tanaka even asked Fukuda on her radio show why he decided to make Kira the star again, to which Fukuda said he doesn't remember.
This puts more strain on an already troubled production, so Fukuda decided to reuse as much of SEED's ending as he could.
So, why did this happen?
Well, Destiny had a far higher budget than SEED (pic related) but wasn't pulling in the same ratings.
> SEED 6.12% > Destiny 5.41%
There's also stories about how the Gunpla wasn't selling that well (whoever decided to combine the main line with the MSVs was an idiot. Seriously, 6 Zakus?), that rumor dates back to when the show was airing. And while Shinn was placing in Newtype polls, the old cast was still far more popular.
This is also the time when SEED was failing in the US market.
In the end, it was a bust. Bandai decided to make a new AU in order to attract a new audience (noting CE fans were different than their established fanbase) and the movie was supposed to wrap the saga up.
Everyone who adapts Destiny does their best to fix it. From dialogue changes in the English dub to SRW rewriting the series as they see fit. Fukuda has been bombarded with the series faults and plotholes for years, but still defends it while criticizes changes made to the story.
>>13846434 Movie was ultimately scrapped because Morosawa couldn't get a script in on time. Her and her husband were suspended from Sunrise. Fukuda came back for the HD Remasters and served as a creative producer (and scapegoat) for Cross Ange, but Morosawa hasn't done anything since.
Well, except acting as a consultant for the reboot manga, SEED RE:. And I think she wrote some omake for the blurays, but that's about it IIRC. Her career is deader than her husbands.
>>13846434 >From dialogue changes in the English dub to I heard on mechatalk there's an interview with Kira and Athrun's dub voice actors on GSD, and they spend like half an hour talking shit about it.
>>13846444 >(and scapegoat) Being a scapegoat means you take the flak for everyone else's mistakes when it's not really your fault. Fukuda openly bragged about being the one who changed shit that made Cross Ange terrible.
>>13846538 Yeah, I was just about post that concept art. The more Muv-Luv-y, Kira-less version of Cross Ange looked like it had promise. It's kind of heartbreaking that Fukuda got involved and turned it into SEED 3.
>>13846521 Right after the show ended, he had to make a Twitter post where he had to clarify Ange and her pals DIDN'T doom the rest of the world to a dystopian future and have a karaoke party over it because Jasmine was still checking on the rest of humanity behind the scenes.
>>13846587 Sunrise probably wanted to slap his name on because it was a new IP and they could hype it off of Fukuda's success with SEED.
In terms of position, he was basically the director without being the director. He talked about it on Twitter before the show started. He had the exact same control a director would have, just without being able to make direct budget decisions (presumably). When Tusk was supposed to be killed off, he went over the actual director's head to get it changed. Ashino intended for Tusk to die for real in that scene.
Creative producer. To quote a PDF, his role is to > spotting the right material for the right time;
> identifying and successfully attaching the right combination of talents and experience to turn promising story material into a irresistible script; > finding the right director and other creative collaborators to transform that irresistible script into a great show; > defending the creative integrity of the show’s authors while simultaneously ensuring they go far enough, but not too far, in meeting expectations of public and private financiers, distributors, broadcasters, all of whom need some form of cultural or commercial return on their investment;
> positioning and marketing the show to maximize its impact and, ideally but not always, maximise its audience
I heard he made a tweet that Cross Ange was actually his idea, but I was told it was debunked.
>Heine, like Miguel, was voiced by TM Revolution. He is there for no reason other than to use TM Revolution's star power. And when they couldn't afford him anymore, they killed him off.
Ohh so that's what happened. When Heinze appeared and showed as a cool guy and then killed the very next episode I couldn't belive how shitty the writing was. I mean, present a character just to kill him of immediately to maybe trigger an emotional reaction?
So it wasn't abysmal writing but production drama. Not sure what's worse.
>>13847076 >So it wasn't abysmal writing but production drama. Not sure what's worse.
Stunt-casting, attaching popular celebrities to your product in order to attract their fans. As mentioned, TM Revolution did Miguel and Heine, Nami Tamaki was offered the role of Shiho (she refused) and Vivian Hsu played Aisha (Andy's lover).
They had to replace Hsu's performance in later editions. Apparently, it was very bad. Also explains why she died but Andy survived (Again, Fukuda thought he was cool).
>>13847724 Don't forget Dearka switched sides because Buster wasn't selling well and Nicol died for the same reason but with Blitz. People should be glad Nami Tamaki didn't take that role. If she did Shiho would be dead.
>>13833606 >Give me an honest evaluation of seed. It's very bad. It has fantastic BGM. >Should I try it out? If you're a completionist who needs to watch everything Gundam. Not if you just want to watch a good show. >Are the grunt suits interesting? They are fairly interesting, sometimes silly. I like them.
>>13846434 >Then it comes down to the plot going off the rails as the scripts were rewritten. Suzumura has said many times than when he was brought on, Shinn wasn't supposed to end up the villain. The developers of Generation of CE promoted their game with the announcement that it had the originally planned ending of Destiny, and none of it's endings had Kira turning into humanities champion. Tanaka even asked Fukuda on her radio show why he decided to make Kira the star again, to which Fukuda said he doesn't remember.
>The developers of Generation of CE promoted their game with the announcement that it had the originally planned ending
I'm curious Anon, what WAS the ending from that game. I've read in other forums that there are essentially four endings to that game, depending largely on who kills Stella.
>>13848592 >I'm curious Anon, what WAS the ending from that game. I've read in other forums that there are essentially four endings to that game, depending largely on who kills Stella.
From when I asked this a few months back.
> In the path where Kira is prevented from killing Stella, Minerva blows her up instead. Angel down doesn't happen because Shinn lacks his hate on, and Athrun doesn't leave as a result. Djbril goes to Orb, and Kira and AA deploy as NPC allies assisting Minerva in taking out the Orb forces loyal to Yuna. Djbril still gets away.
> Final Mission is basically a repeat of Seed's finale. Djbril launches nukes at Plant, Shinn and Minerva deploy to stop them, and Kira and co deploy as a 3rd side trying to save Plant but also not trusting Zaft (you can defeat them and they'll retreat, but you don't need to).
> If a nuke hits Plant, Durandal counters with Neo Genesis, and destroys the earth, if they're all stopped, Durandal and Cagalli call a truce and make a peace agreement and the war ends without furtherbloodshed.
> 2nd path is Kira kills Stella and Shinn swears revenge, only Angel Down is a bigger battle (Cagalli Andy and the Murasame team help out) and all of team AA is killed, including Kira. But it also makes it clear Kira let Shinn win as in their final clash, Shinn demands Kira fight seriously, but Kira says he won't take Shinn's life even if he kills him in return. Shinn does, but isn't happy about it afterwards since Kira sacrificing himself causes him to wonder if his initial opinion on him was wrong. Shinn and Talia decide to run out on Durandal, feeling he just used them to remove any opposition to him taking over earth and he deploys Rey in Destiny to stop them from escaping and the final battle is Shinn vs Rey. Athrun inexplicably disappears in this route.
> There's also a 3rd variation where Shinn goes full Vader and supports Durandal's takeover and kills all his enemies for him allowing him to take earth.
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