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Are Freedom + Kira really that good or do...
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Are Freedom + Kira really that good or do grunts in SEED just suck so bad that he looks good?
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>>13809688
It's plot armor, plain and simple.
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>>13809688
A little of both. At times he demonstrates genuine skill, but most of his ability to decimate armies comes from them not being very good.
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Isn't Kira like the most ultimate of ultimate coordinators or something?

Combine that with a beamspam Gundam and there you go
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>>13809688
The latter, unfortunately.

Freedom and Strike Freedom are really nice designs (though I can go without ghe gold innards on SF, honestly) but Fukada lacks the talent to really make them exciting to watch.

Now, if Kira went up against Zanscare grunts, that'd be a lot more fun to watch. Those guys are a lot more formidable and actually present difficulties for Uso, who'd likely wipe the floor with Kira to begin with.

They're so good that Zanscare aces rarely even need "special snowflake" custom versions.
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>>13809688

Both, the more inclined to the latter since grunts gotta grunt

>>13809700

In-universe being an "Ultimate Coordinator" only meant that the genetic traits came out 100% the way his/her parents wanted due to being born in an artificial womb (so no deviation caused by the mother's womb), so I was never quite sure how that lead to Kira being a beamspamming, SORE DEMO spouting machine
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>>13809688
Even in Japan, Gunota has long held that Kira relies on the power of his mobile suits. Even the Strike, which they view as Fukuda reusing stuff from Cyber Formula. They view Kira being able to program his MS to work 100% under any condition as him working around his own lack of piloting skills.

It got so bad that during the Remasters, they had to address this by reanimating his sortie in the Strike Rouge. They made him look more skillful when he was piloting an outdated MS to try and make him look better. It's the same thing as them redesigning the SF's wings so he could get his speed boost on Earth without deploying the Dragoons, or how the Freedom's generator output is listed as unknown.

It's like they go out of their way to make Kira look the best. Not only is he a Coordinator, he has the mysterious SEED factor and then they make him a fucking newtype.
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>>13809688

With all due respect all he ever really does is.

Arrive on battlefield
Unleash beam spam
KABOOOM
There goes the 5th and 4th EA&ZAFT fleets

Seriously if EA&ZAFT allied with each other they would still get creamed by him, he that OP.
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If the Gundams were nerfed, and Kira was replaced, and SEED was redone, how much better would it be
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>>13809801
>they had to address this by reanimating his sortie in the Strike Rouge. They made him look more skillful when he was piloting an outdated MS to try and make him look better.

But I preferred it when he got beaten badly while using it, to show how much he relied on the Freedom and it's tactics, and thus can't pilot anything else anymore.
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>>13809824
BUT THEN KIRA HAS A WEAKNESS! WE CAN'T HAVE THAT! - Mitsuo Fukuda

Seriously, these changes and retcons are why I dislike the HD Remasters. If Rightstuff releases the broadcast version of SEED with Dub, they can have my money.
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>>13809842
Same here, I dislike the HD Remasters a lot.

I prefer the original versions greatly.
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>>13809862
>>13809842
Fucking hipsters.
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>>13809813
>Seriously if EA&ZAFT allied with each other they would still get creamed by him, he that OP.

How is it that between the Strike, Freedom, Justice and Buster they couldn't stop Orb from falling, yet in Destiny Kira can solo both Zaft and the EA despite them having state-of-the-art MS? Yeah, I know he has an NJC but that should only count for so much.
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>>13809874
Because plot.
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>>13809874
Because Fukada deems it so.
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What's the best gundam series? 08th MS looks the most interesting, but my only other mecha exposure is macross.
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>>13809926
Thunderbolt
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>>13809900
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>>13809932
Why? Just curious. Am DLing it now
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>>13809842

Remember that Kira did nothing wrong and Nicol walked into the sword.
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>>13809926
Victory Gundam.

Best grunts, best action, best faction, best Gundams.
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>>13809688
I thought Kira showed skill when he was piloting the Strike in the first half of the show.

>>13809958
self-defense
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>>13809716
Seed is gay but did you know the Jahannam is based on the Zoloat?
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>>13809801
>how the Freedom's generator output is listed as unknown
How can they do this?
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>>13809963
This, tbqh fampai.

I honestly can't decide whether the V or V2 is best. They're both stellar.
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>>13809801
Kira is the ultimate Gundam pilot though.
>Fight against BH Turn A
>reprogram SF phase-shift armor so it can become anti-nanomachine to counter MLB
>readjust SF beam rifle output so it is stronger than twelve colony laser
He is the best.
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>>13809943
No kids, 08th team same era, better action and soundtrack than other Gundams.
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>>13809987

Well, you know that if Kira were serious we'd have no chance against him.
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>>13809977
It's a symbol of how meaningless official stats are in Gundam.
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>>13810000
Let us know what you think after watching.>>13809943
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>>13809688
I want Gundam Seed Movie to come out in the Seed Anniversary or something so we can get a further upgrade of SF.
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>>13810102

It needs more lasers.
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>>13809987

Nah, that's not how Kira beats stronger opponents and you know it. Black History Turn-A would toast him with little to no effort but he'd manage to survive no matter how extraordinary the circumstances required and then his pink waifu would pull a new and better robot that one ups the Black History Turn-A out of her ass. Something like the Meteoric Strike, with dual colony lasers and wings that shit nanomachines that can re-program reality at will.
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>>13810102

It was confirmed as cancelled years ago by Fukuda himself, so I doubt it.

https://forums.gotwoot.net/showthread.php/11044-An-old-interview-with-Fukuda

> Q: Any plans for the next series?
> A: I can't say it. It's top secret. Movie plan was killed.
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>>13810394
>>13810394
That was from November of '03, before Destiny was even announced. Notice they mention Fukuda's next plans were making another Cyber Formula series.
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>>13809824

But...but...that's not even what happened, he torched the shit out of everyone until he...ya know, had to be a shield for the Eternal.
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>>13809963
>tfw Victory animated in 1993 and not 1999.

All the stellar promo art makes me wish V got the decent animation over Turn A. It deserved it way more.
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>>13810390

And don't forget he would beat it while reluctantly fighting since he doesn't really want to hurt anyone.

I wanted Shinn to kill him so bad.
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>>13810648
He wouldn't actually be fighting reluctantly, he'd be shooting al his guns at it while angrily demanding that it stop fighting back. You know, like he really did once.
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>>13810726

He would however be implied to have not been fighting seriously afterwards since he wasn't sure about the enemy or something. Can't have Kira looking bad and losing when he was actually trying after all.
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Kira Yamato is god.
If you don't fap to kira's godly ogre cock every day, and anally pleasure yourself imagining him fuck you... you aren't a human being
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>>13810760

Flay stop posting.

Also you just fucked him to guilt trip him into killing everyone and himself.
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>>13809716
>Those guys are a lot more formidable and actually present difficulties for Uso, who'd likely wipe the floor with Kira to begin with.

This. Uso's like Shinn on steroids with a far more advanced MS (that's mass produced, even.) He probably wouldn't even need the V2 to win.
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>>13809874

Because he's a third party and they're fighting each other as much as their fighting him.

When Kira goes up against EA alone in 32, and Zaft alone in 34, he's doesn't do so well since they're all focusing on him.

And later on he has actually has a massive army backing him with Orb and the Lacus Faction remnants, where as in Seed they had a much smaller force.
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>>13809934

This is Fukuda's issues in a nutshell. He doesn't think the logic of anything is important. Just the cool scenes and emotional stuff.
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>>13809977

They probably just legitimately don't know since Seed's mechanical backstory is so inconsistant.

Hell they still aren't quite sure how SF works.
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Why is that even what you, when they make that for?
Obviously it's why he is what.
Nevermind the fact you even were who.
So in conclusion what makes everything though may not be who it might, but is for everyone.
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>>13809688

He's good, but they do a lousy job showing it with all the stock footage.

They do say several times that Freedom and the other super Gundams require incredible skill to control and any idiot can't just hop it and press a few buttons and own everyone but they don't try to depict that at all.
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>>13811095
What the fuck?
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>>13811105

That's shown in the early episodes with the Strike when Sai tries to use it out of pure netorare rage but fails.

Then they forget about that and in Destiny even more.
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>>13809716
Even some grunts in Zeta give Kamille trouble, like a suicidal Hizack pilot that grapples him in the Zeta.
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>>13811068
Well, the logic of things in Cross Ange isn't all that important, since that show was wilfully quite silly. Gundam has (or should have) slightly higher standards of internal consistency.
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>>13811105
>they don't try to depict that at all.
They also don't try to depict the supposed superiority of Coordinators. They seem like just as much of a bunch of chumps as the naturals.
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>>13811163
I am reminded of Amuro in his prime, treating a grunt as a convenient vending machine for a new gun.
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>>13809688
no, it's Fukuda's shitty writing.
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>>13811068

He's not wrong, though it only works for certain types of shows where there's more of a comedy focus.

>>13811074

The only units in all of SEED or Destiny to have powerplant numbers are Freedom and Justice as far as I know. Which is hardly unusual. None of the units in G, X, 00, AGE or G-Reco have power plant numbers either and only a handful of units in Wing or Turn-A have them. The upgraded Gundams in Wing have powerplant numbers, but not the starting ones for some bizarre reason, while most of the Moon suits don't have them in Turn-A, but a few like the SUMO do.

And there's a very simple reason why most show's don't provide: they're unimportant. Most people don't care about that information and when they are provided they're almost always ludicrously stupid numbers anyways. The Turn-A, one of the most powerful units in the franchise (certainly the most powerful to have a powerplant output number) has an output rating of only 27, 000kw. For comparison, a modern passenger jet puts out about 120, 000kw odd. Per engine.

Putting in those kind of numbers is pointless, which is why most shows don't do it. It doesn't even really add anything to the mechanical backstory, where evolutionary lines of units and so on are far more important.
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>>13811249
The thing about gundam stats (in UC at least) is that I always add a few zeroes to everything depending on the suit and individual stat in question to make it make sense.

F91 weighs 19.9 tons fully loaded? Fuck that, now it weighs 199 tons fully loaded, and the thrusters get a nice boost in numbers to compensate.
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>>13811149
>That's shown in the early episodes with the Strike when Sai tries to use it out of pure netorare rage but fails.
No? When Sai tries to use the Strike they were in the desert arc. A natural-friendly OS isn't written until they arrive in Orb and Kira's programming skills get put to full use.

Kira's dominance comes down to two things: his special snowflakeness (SEED mode, greatest coordinator reflexes, and eventual newtypeness in Destiny) and his programming ability {which, while OP, is legit by anime standards}. Like Amuro, Kira is the pilot and the primary engineer on his suits; consequently, he knows them better than any pilot knows their own machines AND is able to accurately program the suit to maximize their utility based on his piloting style. Battery issue aside, Kira could've probably gotten to the end of the story with the Strike alone. Providence might kill him, but he'd make it into space.

Seriously, that whole "lets design an OS while we do recap episodes" bit in Orb was the only place where pilot ability and OS appropriateness is actually addressed semi-properly in the show.
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>>13811166

Fukuda didn't think that of Gundam obviously.

And to be fair, he's not obliged to treat it like Tomino did. It was his show.
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>>13811616
Druggies would have murdered him. He was already getting bodied by them when he was using Freedom. If he had Strike he would have been killed. Freedom has 4x the power of Strike and could barely dodge them. Freedom can fly while Strike can't. Freedom has a multitude of weapons that they have to dodge giving him breathing room. Kira wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes against them in Strike.
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>>13813035
That's not how Gundam logic works anon. Very few if any Gundam shows has consistent power levels, especially the newer stuff. 00 is a great example of this.
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>>13810597
Which got him pretty beaten.
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>>13813112
It's not like he was doing much better in the HD. They dodged most of his missiles They dodged his railgun and plasma cannon multiple times. He got his arm blown off because he over extended with the sword and had to block a shot from a Gunner Zaku.
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>>13809977
That's the SF, the Freedom's Reactor is listed at 8k kW. The Strike Freedom's reactor is probably around the same range, but is tons more efficient
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>>13813145
Daaamn.

>>13813151
Hi Fllay!
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>>13809688
Doesn't matter.

The point is that Kira is superior to everybody else because he is basically Jesus Christ of SEED and can do no wrong.
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>>13813178
>can do no wrong
But he killed Nicole!
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>>13813196
It was Just because he's Kira "Fucking" Yamato.
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>>13813178
> can do no wrong
> do no wrong
you mean kira 'fucking' tomato do no wrong, as a double standard faggot?

i would accept that, as well as other anon out there.
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>>13813151
They recently retconned the Freedom's reactor to unknown.
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>>13813367
>>13813151

It's not a retcon, they just never listed the Freedom's reactor output in any of the model kits until the recent HGCE kit.
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>>13813196

Nicol killed himself since he ran to the sword. Kira is perfect.
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>>13811095
>Why is that even what you, when they make that for?
>Obviously it's why he is what.
>Nevermind the fact you even were who.
>So in conclusion what makes everything though may not be who it might, but is for everyone.
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>>13809699
>but most of his ability to decimate armies comes from them not being very good.
It is an actual lack of skill on the grunts pilots' part, or is it that grunt MS are crap units, in comparison to other Gundam series?
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>>13813008
Let me rephrase that. Cross Ange is basically a tongue in cheek comedy. Comedy can get away with lack of internal consistency, which is otherwise a standard of ANY show. If things are happening apropos of nothing or in contradiction to what has already happened, and you're supposed to take it seriously, people are usually prepared to call that bad writing.

Now, I'm aware that in Cross Ange's case it was entirely accidental on Fukuda's part, since he seemed to be the only member of staff that thought it was a completely serious story.
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>>13813637
>It's not a retcon, they just never listed the Freedom's reactor output in any of the model kits
It is a retcon, but not from the model kits. The reactor output appeared on the series itself.
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>>13809934
Hey, somebody saved the image I made!

There's another message between them, but the link 404s. Since I can't verify it, I omitted it:
Tusk knew where Ange's destination was, so he rendezvoused with Momoka who was stuck in a tree. And they came back to the island on a fishing boat…the end. The director said "Eh? Is this really ok?", and did oppose this idea, but Higuchi-san, the producers, and I agreed on this development.

https://twitter.com/fukuda320/status/574288336254169088
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>>13813035
Having the druggies was a terrible idea. It showed the incompetence of the writing staff, when they realized that, with the ZAFT boys no longer being enemies, they had to come up with new enemes...

...in Gundams of their own, marking "Gundam"s as even less special.
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>>13813875
>Earth forces invented the gundams
>it's suddenly unusual for them to be making more, as well as gundam based grunt suits

The main problem with the druggies isn't that they existed, but that they were the sole physical antagonist for a huge chunk of the last half of the show

The ZAFT boys alternated in and out, supported oneshot villains like the captain in the aquatic MS, and so on

The druggies were just the druggies
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>>13813895
Yeah. Didn't Fukuda seem surprised during the Kyoto interview when he was asked about their backstories? Like, he expected that no one would care about them so he didn't put the effort into fleshing them or Azrael out in the original release. It's at this point where Fukuda's desire to make SEED an old school robot anime shines through the brightest.

> I'm not going to give out their profiles. Just between ourselves, they are criminals sentenced to death. They plea bargained as Gundam pilots in return for lesser punishment.

SHANI WAS 16! HE LIKED TO LISTEN TO MUSIC
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>>13813945

I thought Azrael was a fun character but as main villains go he was extremely shallow and mustache-twirling tier.

The guy that started and fueled the entire naturals vs coordinator wars should have been given a bit nore depth, and remaster's retconn that he was bullied by coordinators was a pathetic motivation and it would have been better to just leave him as a raving genocidal lunatic with unknown backstory.
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>>13813945
>It's at this point where Fukuda's desire to make SEED an old school robot anime shines through the brightest.
And that's precisely the reason why SEED (and the hiring of Fukuda as director) fails miserably. The main idea that Yoshiyuki Tomino had when he conceived Mobile Suit Gundam, back in the late 70s, was to transcend from the trite "super-powered robot" crap that pervaded the genre and served as a mere marketing vehicle for toys. Telling a story was the main objective:

>https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2009-09-14/yoshiyuki-tomino-press-conference/2
>What we were trying to do was tell the story of a war. As a result, these were the kind of characters that appeared. The fact that these characters were slightly different from actual people, and that they involved these [mobile] suits, was just sort of a side effect. The original story was about human beings.
>I would again like to stress that you must not compare Gundam to anything else. It is not simply a robot story. It is not simply an anime. It is much deeper and much more valuable than that. Despite the modest tone I've taken until now, it is pretty awesome.

Mitsuo Fukuda, meanwhile, has none of these qualms. There never was any attempt on selling us why we should care about these characters, other than the fact that they pilot these cool awesome robots. Fukuda is mainly interested in stylish visuals over any sort of substance. This, added to the fact that he's a fanboy of old anime, the stylistic interests of his wife/screenwriter, and the shameless pandering to the whims of the executives, coalesced to make the disaster that was Gundam SEED.

The fact that SEED was planned and marketed as a reimagining of 0079 (down to the point of being the first show to have the "Mobile Suit" subtitle outside the UC) makes its failure as a story even more offensive in my perspective.
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>>13813145
>They dodged most of his missiles
Except the point of the missiles was clearly to break the enemies up. Which ya know, if you watch the battle...success.

>They dodged his railgun and plasma cannon multiple times

They...didn't, they dodged his fire in one singular scene, and only one dodged the other blocked.

> He got his arm blown off because he over extended

You're just writing your own fanfiction now, he got his arm blown off because he was in the base Strike Rouge which doesn't even have original Aile Strike levels of mobility. The Anti-Ship Sword is also rather large. If Anything he was able to get around into a defensive position despite these things.
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>>13814142

That's Tomino though.

Fukuda's failing was he failed to make Seed entertaining because of his incompetence, but nobody is obliged to do every Gundam like UC the way Tomino did it.
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>>13814142
>The fact that SEED was planned and marketed as a reimagining of 0079 (down to the point of being the first show to have the "Mobile Suit" subtitle outside the UC) makes its failure as a story even more offensive in my perspective.

SEED is a reimagining though. It's reimagining 0079 as a mix between an old school super robot and a generic anime melodrama from the late 90's/early 2000's. Reimagine doesn't mean complete remake, it means looking at something in a different way. It's like that new Twilight novel, a reimagining of the first book and how things would have played out if Bella and Edward were the opposite gender.

Rule 63 SEED Reimagining when?
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>>13810001

Fuck Sai got cucked so hard he doesn't even appear in the sequel
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>>13815050
>SEED is a reimagining though. It's reimagining 0079 as a mix between an old school super robot and a generic anime melodrama from the late 90's/early 2000's.
It still fails utterly to capture what made "Gundam" an iconic series back in 1980.

>Reimagine doesn't mean complete remake, it means looking at something in a different way.
Perhaps "reimagining" isn't the right word, although neither are "remake" nor "reboot". Semantics aside, the point that I'm trying to make is that there is a pretty direct correlation (as in "closely following the original's footsteps in both setting and characters") between 0079 and SEED, that went far beyond what any AU had done at that point. Remember that Bandai itself refers to it as "21st Century First Gundam" 「21世紀のファーストガンダム」
>https://web.archive.org/web/20130302023644/http://www.b-ch.com/contents/feat_gundam/outline
The objective is there, in plain sight.

>It's like that new Twilight novel, a reimagining of the first book and how things would have played out if Bella and Edward were the opposite gender.
I've seen that shit in bookstores. That's what it's about? An official Rule 63 fanfic? I know that Stephanie Meyer would stoop that low, but holy shit...

>Rule 63 SEED Reimagining when?
You think that by switching genders Twilight can possibly improve? Same deal.
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>>13815223
>It still fails utterly to capture what made "Gundam" an iconic series back in 1980.

Never disagreed with that notion.

>Perhaps "reimagining" isn't the right word, although neither are "remake" nor "reboot". Semantics aside, the point that I'm trying to make is that there is a pretty direct correlation (as in "closely following the original's footsteps in both setting and characters") between 0079 and SEED, that went far beyond what any AU had done at that point. Remember that Bandai itself refers to it as "21st Century First Gundam" 「21世紀のファーストガンダム」

You think Bandai cares that much? "21st Century First Gundam" sounds good for PR but it is the complete opposite of the original series in terms of tone and story. Why? Because all Bandai cares about is selling models and Fukuda is they type who will bend his show over to let the sponsors have their way with it.

> I know that Stephanie Meyer would stoop that low, but holy shit...

It was her way of celebrating the 10th anniversary.

> You think that by switching genders Twilight can possibly improve? Same deal.

Kira and Athrun as lesbians. The show would work for the sheer novelty.
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>>13815223

And if you really know Fukuda's work, you'll see that large parts of SEED are just Cyber Formula recycled into a Gundam show.
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>>13815542
>you'll see that large parts of SEED are just Cyber Formula recycled into a Gundam show.
Care to elaborate further? I know about Durandal being a knockoff of Kyoshiro Nagumo, some voice actors making a return (Ishida, Mitsuishi), and that both "SIN" and "SAGA" were prospective names for Gundam SEED (can confirm the latter with pre-production documents). Oh, and Messiah being a copy of Gear Fighter Dendoh's Rasenjou.

I'd really like to know more about the recycled elements you speak of.
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>>13814469
>Except the point of the missiles was clearly to break the enemies up. Which ya know, if you watch the battle...success.

It was stupid. What was even stupider was the suits turning around and shooting at his missiles that were in no danger of hitting them. They all left their backs open.

>They...didn't, they dodged his fire in one singular scene, and only one dodged the other blocked.

That whole sequence was the exact same as the original Destiny 39 with Kira getting a couple melee attacks in as extra.

>You're just writing your own fanfiction now, he got his arm blown off because he was in the base Strike Rouge which doesn't even have original Aile Strike levels of mobility. The Anti-Ship Sword is also rather large. If Anything he was able to get around into a defensive position despite these things.

He overextended. Going for melee with 2 long range suits around you is stupid. His shield was already in position to block. He just had to raise it. He got his arm blown off because he throws his weapons around like a retard. He threw his beam rifle to Andy, he ejected the Ootori Striker to block a shot aimed at the Eternal that wouldn't have damaged it anyway, he threw his swords around in desperation to take down 1 enemy each. It was stupid.
Gaia still had 2 beam cannons so Andy didn't need the beam rifle.
The Eternal would have survived that shot fine so he wasted the pack
The swords were his only close range weapons and they have a ton of reach so throwing them was dumb.
The whole scene was written to make excuses for Kira to lose.
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>>13815536
>Because all Bandai cares about is selling models and Fukuda is they type who will bend his show over to let the sponsors have their way with it.
And, in their attempt, they failed miserably in their goal of creating an expanded universe to rival the UC in scope and sell kits beyond a small handful of Gundams. They didn't see GINNs or Strike Daggers becoming as important as Zaku and GM, respectively (Strike Dagger didn't even get a proper kit). They can't even get the damn movie made. So much for Bandai's hopes...

>It was her way of celebrating the 10th anniversary.
More like "a pretty desperate ploy to keep herself and her franchise relevant after being assaulted by stuff like 50 Shades of Grey (which began its life as a Twilight AU fanfic), The Hunger Games and Insurgent".

>Kira and Athrun as lesbians. The show would work for the sheer novelty.
Cross Ange.
>>
>>13815631
>Cross Ange.

If Cross Ange was a bit more serious, grounded, had a thought out plot, more fleshed out characters and less fanservice it would probably have that second season Fukuda wants so bad. Instead it is incredibly trashy and poorly made.
>>
>>13809695
What are the worst Gundams when it comes to plot armor? I'd have to say the Turn A is the absolute worst.
>>
>>13815631
>More like "a pretty desperate ploy to keep herself and her franchise relevant after being assaulted by stuff like 50 Shades of Grey (which began its life as a Twilight AU fanfic), The Hunger Games and Insurgent".

She also said it's meant to criticisms of Bella's character being a damsel in distress.
>>13815568
>I'd really like to know more about the recycled elements you speak of.
Well, I haven't seen too much Cyber Formula but here's what I've noticed so far. The first episode? Pretty much remade into SEED's. People are trying to steal a prototype new car and when our hero drives it to safety, he's told he is now the only one who can drive it for some asinine reason. He's reluctant at first but then agrees to do it for his friends.

Some shots from the OVA's openings were reused in Destiny.

The cars have computers that can adjust how the machine is calibrated. Basically, the driver goes "next lap, adjust this by that for this part of the race" and the machine will remember to do that. Japanese fans compare this to how Kira's programming his MS to adapt to the environment rather adapting his piloting skills.

That's all I got so far.
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>>13814469
Wait wait.... the Strike Rouge in Destiny has an improved version of the Aile pack which enables it to fly.
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>>13815679
>The first episode? Pretty much remade into SEED's
I noticed that the "left-to-right pan on the cockpit dashboard" is replicated in both Cyber Formula and when Kira boots up the Freedom.

>She also said it's meant to criticisms of Bella's character being a damsel in distress.
ie. Giving into the whine and moan of the Tumblrinas.
>>
>>13815796
I think he's talking about the very end of that one fight, I recall there's a lil' bit after the backpack gets jettisoned.
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>>13816217
yes, but he wasted the Ootori on practically something he can throw the shield on. OR MAYBE, JUST MAYBE he could've rammed the Gunners first. Asked Lacus to get a MeTEOR and just to fire off the missiles.
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>>13815621
>It was stupid.
Because scattering a group of 6+ enemies in comparable Mobile Suit's is totally stupid. Clearly the intelligent play is rushing headlong into the fray, and getting surrounded.

You're not the brightest bulb in the house are you?

>That whole sequence was the exact same as the original Destiny 39 with Kira getting a couple melee attacks in as extra.

Except you're incredibly, and completely wrong? There's like two recycled scenes from the original/movies carried over to the Remaster.

Do you like being wrong on the internet, is it exhilarating?

>He overextended.

He didn't.

>Going for melee with 2 long range suits around you is stupid.

So he was supposed to fight them with what, his head Vulcan's? Yeah, that would have been a much better idea, holding off two Gunner ZAKU's with Vulcan's. Jeez, you're some kind of battle savant man.

>His shield was already in position to block. He just had to raise it.

His shield was in position because he put it there ya' numskull. He swings the sword, the other ZAKU gets into position mid-way through and he finishes up and brings himself into position to defend. If he'd carried through with the swing and stayed oriented the way he had been for the attack he's sword arm would have been facing the ZAKU.

>he ejected the Ootori Striker to block a shot

I'm sure you know more about the Eternal's defensive capabilities then Kira. He's only been into battle on the thing several times, lived on it, etc, etc. Not like it's Laminate armor had been getting plinked since forever so it could have been worn down...nope.

>Gaia still had 2 beam cannons so Andy didn't need the beam rifle.

Beam Rifles are more versatile, their angles of attack are much wider because you don't have to turn the entire suit to attack an enemy. Faster time on target too, this isn't rocket science.

>The swords were his only close range weapons

Sword, it has one Sword. He used the sword that way because he had few other choices.
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>mfw i've never seen SEED and never will
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>>13816494
Oh, boy. It's that guy who always appears to defend Kira/SEED whenever there's a thread (easily recognizable thanks to his obnoxious habit of leaving two spaces between lines)

>He's only been into battle on the thing several times, lived on it, etc, etc.
Despite Eternal being designed for Freedom as a tender ship, he always lived and supplied from the Archangel.

>Not like it's Laminate armor had been getting plinked since forever so it could have been worn down...nope.
The Eternal NEVER took any sort of damage in any battle it participated.
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>>13817543
>The Eternal NEVER took any sort of damage in any battle it participated.

That's...not really relevant, it CAN take damage just like any other ship. It's got no better technology then the Arch Angel.
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>>13811068
The logic is right there. He just doesn't think dropping exposition about it into a scene focusing on something else is important. Even though he does often drop hints about things into dialogue there is tons of unexplained "don't worry this will be cool" shit in Tomino's old shows too that people don't notice as much because very few people watch them in isolation anymore.

Plus which of course nobody actually watched those old shows to see MS becoming invincible because of their pilot's will or Char surviving the Hyaku Shiki being crushed inside an exploding Salamis with no explanation rather than skimming CE as a priority because shitposting looks fun.

>>13814142
>There never was any attempt on selling us why we should care about these characters, other than the fact that they pilot these cool awesome robots.
That's weird, because I don't remember Flay or Natarle piloting any robots.
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>>13817543
>Despite Eternal being designed for Freedom as a tender ship, he always lived and supplied from the Archangel.
It's poor form to pretend you watched anime you really didn't anon.
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>>13820337
The Eternal took heavy damage in SEED from Providence, sure. but seriously, it's really hard to legitimize something when it's just taken from words. Kira's supposed to be a greatly skilled pilot, but when the animation and plot greatly makes shortcuts to show this, it comes across as nothing.

I assure you many of us will buy Kira struggling to cope up with Bucues but still being able to beat them in the end rather than Kira going point-and-click with the Freedom/Strike Freedom.
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>>13809688
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpBi9FCIZUc
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>>13820637
It must be hard living with a mental handicap.
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>>13821127
you haven't seen SEED then. All I'm saying is that you'd more likely buy scenario A rather than scenario B when it comes to a display of skill or whatnot.
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>>13809934
To be honest I kind of agree with him here. Sometimes the HOW isn't super-important. I feel the Destiny relied really hard on it,

I think SEED is a secretly great anime hidden under a horrible production. It looks like hell but somehow draws me into the drama, and fuck the mobile suit design across the board is A++.

Kira isn't even some weird hypocrytical loser god in SEED, it's true he doesn't want to fight (and doesn't want others to fight) but he does feel that he has a responsibility to protect those he cares about (he's pushed there by Flay, repeatedly) so he keeps battling and stuff.

Yeah Lacus is basically a pretty princess, and is essentialy a villain in GSD, but in SEED she's idealistic for the better and gives Kira something larger to care about. The characters are pretty good in SEED, even tragic Flay. The larger story is a lot better than the minor details.

Destiny isn't really good at all but SEED shouldn't get pulled down with it.

>>13809688
Freedom is a monster of an MS, Kira's coordinator skills brings out the full potential of beam spam. Regular MS don't really have a chance but other Gundam types do as we see many times.
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>>13821756
>Regular MS don't really have a chance
Only if Kira is serious
>>
Is it wrong if I really fucking love Freedom? And also the Strike?
RG Freedom and RG Perfect Strike are the center piece of my collection.
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>>13821923
There's nothing wrong with liking the mobile suits regardless of who the pilot is.
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>>13821945
Now I can't help but rewatch this episode.
>dat vent action
>flexing its wings
>first taste of beam spam
>everything getting btfo
>>
For all its beam spam, I'm sad Strike Freedom is lacking Freedom's wing cannons.
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>>13815960
At least in her case, those are literally her only fucking audience.

She is more justified in doing it than a company who serves more sensible people.
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>>13821991
Please link me to where you got your SEED.
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>>13821756
>Sometimes the HOW isn't super-important.

That's bullshit in most cases. Especially how characters survived things that should have killed them. It's terrible writing for Tusk and Momoka to survive what they did without an explanation. What's even worse is the explanation we got was bullshit.
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>>13821991
HD version has better sounds and moresparks being thrown out of the vents
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>>13822110
I honestly can't remember. Only clue I can give you is AHQ/anime head quarters and with dual audio.
>>13822200
I didn't bother with the remaster, but soon I will once I get out of cocoon mode. 2 more months of hell.
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>>13822232
just remember to ignore the new Nichol death scene. It's hilarious as fuck though
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>>13822235
Well, he loved to play the piano and he was only 15. His death is bound to be hilarious.
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>>13822232
Okay then.
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>>13821127
what do you expect from her anyway, when all her nutrient was into those saggy-floor-sweeping boob of hers?
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>>13822368
That's not nice.
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>>13822368
Flay is actually a girl?
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>>13821756
>Lacus is essentialy a villain in GSD
Last time I pointed this out to a diehard SEED fan, especially concerning her spy network as well as the Freedom being one big war crime, I honestly ended up with a headache.

> "Kira and Lacus can do whatever they want because they're rebels fighting tyrants, and there's nothing in the show to suggest Lacus is evil. That extended universe stuff about Terminal being a spy network wasn't mentioned in the show, so it doesn't exist."

> Destiny isn't really good at all but SEED shouldn't get pulled down with it.

Here's the way I look at it buddy, can I watch SEED the same way again after watching Destiny? Can I get behind Kira's character development without thinking of how he was a self-righteous prick in the sequel, or believe in Athrun's when it's reset? There's a bunch of shit going on in the back of my mind, and the later versions try to connect them by retconning Mu's helmet or adding Shinn. Destiny does not stand on it's own and it undermines whatever SEED was saying.

Personally, I prefer to think of Destiny as non-canon. Or if it is, the SRW Z version that fixed Kira.
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>>13809754
>In-universe being an "Ultimate Coordinator" only meant that the genetic traits came out 100% the way his/her parents wanted due to being born in an artificial womb (so no deviation caused by the mother's womb), so I was never quite sure how that lead to Kira being a beamspamming, SORE DEMO spouting machine

they make a big point about the fact that ordinary coordinators feel like naturals compared to kira.
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>>13822877
I'm sorry you feel that way, senpai. I've always sort of disconnected the two in my mind. Might've helped that I waited about a year to watch Destiny after SEED.

I'm not a huge canon person either so that's probably part of it.
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>>13822877
>and there's nothing in the show to suggest Lacus is evil

He's right on that though. There really isn't. Lacus's only "crimes" is not wanting to get killed by hit squads and not wanting to let Durandal enforce his crazy world ruling plan at WMD point. She's the only one that doesn't resort to weapons of genocide in the end (Freedom despite it's nuclear power isn't one, especially not the way Kira uses it)
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>>13822973
the freedom could be a weapon of mass genocide in the wrong hands.

Lacus isnt evil, but still, by the end of seed she is the space queen, who took over zaft by force and also forced naturals to start peace talks.

And she is protected by her knight who nobody can beat.
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>>13823003
unfortunately depending on what kind of spin is put on it, that can be both good guy or bad guy
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>>13823003
I always liked the whole "lady and her knight" aspect they had together.
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>>13823003

How is it a weapon of genocide in the wrong hands? What's it got, 11 guns? That's like saying anyone who controls 11 tanks has a weapon of genocide at their disposal. Sure, theoretically they can commit genocide with those 11 cannons, but (a) it's going to take them an awful long while and (b) someone is going to take them down pretty quickly regardless, even if only by attrition.
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>>13823060

that thing is so overpowerd that it could pretty much fly up to plant and start blowing holes in it or even cut it in the middle with that backup unit.
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>>13823085

The list of suits that could blow holes in a colony is probably longer than the list of ones that couldn't. Anything with a decent sized beam weapon could probably do it and keep doing it for a long time since most settings don't use batteries.
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>>13823003
>Lacus isnt evil, but still, by the end of seed she is the space queen, who took over zaft by force and also forced naturals to start peace talks.

And they're willing to act now rather than just let the world be. Considering how the EA is in tatters and how she still has Terminal, what's to stop her from ordering armed interventions in the name of peace?
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>>13823085
Oh look someone else that never watched a show but is pretending they did.

>doesn't have knowledge of things that happened in the third fucking episode of both series
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>>13823271

Armed interventions against who? Nobody actually opposes Lacus because Lacus doesn't actually have demands she forces on people besides "Don't be genocidal dicks"
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>>13823085

That's happened before in both series, and the damage was extremely minor. You would have to shoot like 50 holes into a Plant to maybe start to inconvenience the people there.
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>>13823330
Think about it. What happens to the EA now? What happens when such a big nation block just goes to pieces?
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>>13823325
anon, i watched seed back when it aired.
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>>13823500
Based on your typing you were 3 years old at the time?
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>>13823525
why the fuck are you attacking me personally because you don't agree with you?
And over something really small too...
This is /m/, if you want to act like some neckbeard keyboardwarior go to /b/ or /v/
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>>13823535
>really small
>herp derp Freedom is a WMD because it can do what a GINN can and anyone who knows even the most basic plot details about SEED would know
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>>13823559
>freedom detected on radar around plant
>send out ginn's
>freedom blows away ginns with beam spaming and starts atacking plant

>grunt unit does the same
>gets fucked after a few seconds against the other grunts

its like you arent even acting anymore anon, your really retarded.
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>>13823572
>A WMD is defined by its ability to dodge
Have you considered not posting about subjects you don't know anything about in a language you can't use?
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>>13823588
wtf anon, stop throwing a tantrum like a little kid.
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>>13822973
Durandal didn't even use his lasers until people started attacking him. Lacus is guilty of a ton of crimes throughout Seed and Destiny.
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>>13823271
>what's to stop her from ordering armed interventions in the name of peace?
Interestingly enough, this is exactly what Kira proposes when Durandal asks him how he plans to deal with the future insurgencies that will crop up due to the underlying unresolved tensions. Kira says (in effect) that he'll just beat down anyone that tries.
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>>13823060
That anon's argument is dumb, but having the Freedom is still really skeevy. It's a walking nuclear weapon, and is quite explicitly barred from use by the treaty she helped create. And yet she not only scavenged it and let everyone think it was destroyed, but restored it to full operating condition.

Technically speaking her ownership of the Freedom does constitute a war crime.
>>
Guys, I thought Freedom was considered WMD-tier because it had an N-jammer canceller and a nuclear engine, breaking the nuclear taboo
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>>13823991
USA
S
A
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>>13823991

And you suppose the people that would oppose the Destiny Plan were just going to be invited for tea. Durandal was doing the same thing, only with death lasers instead of mobile suits.

The difference is Lacus wants everyone to just make nice and otherwise go about their business without her bothering them. Only being unreasonably violent is going to get Kira sent after you.

Durandal wants everyone to do what he says and have total global control, while Azrael/Djbril want to kill all the coordinators and coordinator supporters and will slaugther anyone in their way. Meanwhile going up against Team Lacus gives you very high chances of coming out alive.
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>>13824079

It's basically about choosing your god-emperor
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>>13824036
In effect, Kira is basically making himself the world police or s1 Celestial Being. He's going to be enforcing his will by strength, like a benevolent dicator.
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>>13824079
>And you suppose the people that would oppose the Destiny Plan were just going to be invited for tea. Durandal was doing the same thing, only with death lasers instead of mobile suits.

The novelization says that the Destiny plan was voluntary. The EA says it wants to negotiate and sends a fucking fleet, only for Durandal to wipe them out. Orb declares war on Durandal, so then Durandal threatens them with his big laser.

The Kingdom of Scandinavia rejected the plan, and nothing happens to them.

2/3 of those who rejected the plan launched fleets at the Plants, and then Durandal pulls out his WMD. The one who just stayed at home chilling got no such threats.
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>>13824083

Yeah but I don't really see the downside to Lacus as God emperor, as aside from messing you up if you start doing evil things, which you probably should do anyway she's not actually gonna lord over anyone.
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>>13824103

I like god-emperors and princesses in general, so Durandal only filled half that bill
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>>13824100
>The novelization says that the Destiny plan was voluntary.

Cute.

Durandal says it's not, and anyone who doesn't want to be part of it is an enemy of mankind.

More over the Destiny Plan cannot work if the whole planet isn't a part of it.

Scandinavia has no army, and once everyone else was wiped out if Durandal then said join the plan or get blasted they'd have no choice but to comply since they certainly couldn't oppose him.
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>>13824100
>novelizations
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>>13824020
That doesn't really make it a WMD any more than a Moebius.

It's a grey area because technically the Archangel is probably not subject to the treaty because they aren't formally party of the Orb military (and thus EA by extension) until they return. Canard has the Dreadnought and no one cares.

Also by the time Freedom gets pulled out the EA has already used a Mirage Colloid equipped battleship in combat and launched hundreds of nuclear weapons at the PLANTs and the treaty is pretty much void. There's also N Dagger Ns (aka fuck the treaty Dagger), Testament Gundam, and other super illegal things, and the context of the first episode of Destiny is Cagalli coming to bitch to Durandal about hiring Orb refugees because transfer of Orb military technology constitutes a treaty violation. The entire thing was fairly worthless.
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>>13822877
care to elaborate what did they do in SRWZ that fixed him?
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>>13824237
Simply put, the gamemakers looked at Kira and went "man, what a shithead." If you're playing with the part of ZEUTH that Shinn is with, then they're going to point out just what's wrong with him.

Kira doesn't kill his opponents, only disables them? That means he's leaving soldiers helpless on the battlefield surrounded by enemies. Tetsuya (Great Mazinger) scoffs that Kira acts like his hands are clean just because he didn't kill them himself (this is after Gym's party showed up outta nowhere and killed the disabled Heine). They call him a self-righteous showoff and Loran (who figured out what Kira was trying to do) says that while the Archangel had good intentions, they were ignoring the consequences of their actions.

Fuck, Loran says that Kira doesn't understand the weight of spilt blood.

It also points out that Kira ignores why battles happen, and would have let evidence of crimes against humanity be wiped out in order to protect Orb. They also point out that Kira waits for battles to break out before he attacks, making the situation more chaotic and increasing the number of casualties. The game isn't shy about pointing out Kira is a terrorist either, and is disgusted how he tore apart the Savior with Athrun (his best fucking friend) inside.

Then Kira gets character development. After losing the Freedom, he has to team up with Harry Ord to get away from Yzak's forces. Harry, after observing how Kira fights, tells him if he's going to keep fighting in such a half-hearted way to go home. Fighting in such a manner will only get Kira and his friends killed. Harry then quotes Kamille, "Right or wrong, you must do what you must."

To be continued, since I feel I'm near the limit
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>>13824313
Kira helps ZEUTH fight off the Titans, only for Talia to get orders from Gil to off ZEUTH. Talia decides not to do so and gives Shinn, Luna and Rey the option to stay with ZEUTH. If Shinn believes in ZEUTH more than Durandal, he and Luna stay. No matter what though, Rey leaves and Talia urges ZEUTH to work with the Archangel.

So, everyone is happy to join with Kira, right? Wrong. The members of ZEUTH who fought Kira are still pissed at him and the members Kira helped before won't bail him out. They're holding him accountable for his actions here. There's a conference with the various Captains where they discuss what is going on, with both sides admitting fault. Murrue says that Talia taught them that it's stupid to fight for your beliefs without trying to talk first.

Meanwhile, Kira has to win over the pilots. Kira admits that he was turning his head way to the consequences of his actions, since that made things easier for him. He also agrees when Shinn calls him out for acting like a "hero of justice." Kira explains that he thought about what Harry said and goes "I realize now I'm going to create suffering. I'm done ignoring that. But I still have to fight for what I believe in, so I'll just have to bear that hatred."

People realize just how fucked up Kira was before, how much he was hurting. Moved by his words, Shinn agrees to join him and Athrun in stopping Durandal.

Understanding intensifies.
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>>13824356
>>13824313

Don't forget that a certain somebody was pissed at this portrayal of Kira.
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>>13824361
me.
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>>13824361

And even if Shinn leaves with the Minerva, Kira's all about reaching out to him alongside Shinn's former comrades.

They gave Kira a good character arc and ultimately made him more heroic than Fukuda's "I'll police the world" version (and if Kira is Fukuda's self-insert...wow. That is like, pure teenager fanfiction right there). They humanized the SOB.
>>
>>13824237
Basically the fact that they show up and make battles longer, because instead of doing something to get Orb out of the Earth Alliance, they instead wait for a battle that Orb is in to start fighting.

On SRW Z, nobody really thought much of the Archangel and friends, when they appeared other than "hey, who is that guy" or "he's good!", but when ZEUTH splits up, ZAFT/ZEUTH run into a Titan/Phantom Pain group that jumps them. Orb shows up from behind you with reinforcements. The Archangel shows up, Cagaili does her useless ranting, and the fight's about to continue. The Minerva tries to take the initiative, but Kira disables the Tännhauser. Your crew is like "what the shit is your problem, you can see we're clearly not the aggressors here", but they don't care and continue to fight everyone around (if shot down, they just regen HP to full). Kira himself has Mercy on all of his attacks, so if you get shot down by him, you're instead reduced to 10 HP so someone else can do it for you.

After you deal with the Phantom Pain, the Archangel moves to retreat. Heine appears and gets disabled by the Freedom, and then the Ghingnham Fleet takes him out. Other drama happens, but at the end of the stage, everyone is like "Athrun, do something about your buddy", and he's like "Alright, I guess"

The very next stage is about the Extended Lab, and a lot of the cast's captains are hanging out there, your only ship available is the King Beal, and it's stuck in one location. The EA wants to burn it down, and are willing to throw a ship into it, and you have to protect it. Since the EA brought along Orb, the Archangel shows up for the fun too, and like before, they have at you. After Baba kills himself, Kira does his Cagaili is crying speech and shoots down Athrun, and everyone's like "he shot down his friend!"

This is where that picture of everyone calling Kira a shit comes from.
After the battle, everyone's pissed off and discusses what they know about the Archangel
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>>13824566
That being that the Archangel might have their heart in the right place, they don't give a shit about context and are more of a nusience than a help.

There's actually a stage that Kira shows up to help fight off the Dianna Counter, but nobody is that thrilled to see him. It doesn't help that shortly after that, he shoots down Stella when your gang was trying to stop her.

So when they show up in space to help you, the Argama/King Beal/Minerva crew members aren't that thrilled to see them, but they decide that they're going to fight anyway.

After you shoot the Requiem station down, the Minerva departs for ZAFT, because they've been recalled, but Shinn and Lunamaria decide to stay with ZEUTH
There's a translation of it here
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=450802433

Keep in mind though, the other half of ZEUTH don't have a problem with them, the point is that they bothered giving an objective look at the guy
>>
What Destiny needed was someone to call Kira's bullshit. Athrun did it but very lightly and later joined Jesus. Shin opposed Kira but for the wrong reasons and was also painted in a bad light because of it.

In the end Kira was right and perfect all along, Shin and everyone else who opposed him were evil or retards and his pink waifu became queen of the universe.
>>
>>13824660
>implying Lacus has any domain over Mars
>>
>>13824660

The problem is Kira's bullshit is exactly what saved the day in Seed, so it suddenly being wrong because he's not waiting until the genocide is at it's peak before trying to bust up the war comes off as suspect.

I mean Athrun yells at Kira for not accepting that war sucks and people will have to die and not sticking to the greyest side to make sure they come out on top, even though that's exactly what he decided he was doing wrong in Seed.
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>>13824871
>The problem is Kira's bullshit is exactly what saved the day in Seed

I thought it was the simultaneous deaths of both EA's and PLANT's most politically prominent pro-war leaders

Kira had to stop Raul though, which had less to do with his and Lacus' philosophies and more the fact that that absolute madman was going to try and genocide the planet anyway
>>
Z also gave Meer a much better death.
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>>13824888

That only happened because Team Kira shot down all the nukes, and then destroyed Genesis. If they'd left them to war on their own then everything would have been destroyed.
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>>13824079
The point there is that Durandal was attempting (in his own blundering way) to resolve the underlying racial tension that was causing all this conflict (and ironically was making some real headway on it until he revealed his plan). Kira had no such intention, and apparently intended to just kick back and let that tension fester and produce more trouble (and fester it would, with the entire earth sphere under the thumb of two coordinators and a natural with family ties to them), under the assumption that he could just go personally beat up anyone that was causing it (which didn't work for America and won't work for him). He also has no plan for what happens after he and Lacus are gone even if they were to do a perfect job.
>>
>>13826772
In addition, Kira is now a commanding officer in ZAFT after fighting against ZAFT in two wars. Not to mention how he did so using tech that was stolen from ZAFT. And let's not forget, his team's defense of Orb allowed Djibril to escape to space where he destroyed some Plants. That's how many thousand of civilians?

I could definitely see ZAFT undergoing a civil war over these kinds of things in addition to raising hostilities to Kira and Lacus policing the world. And if the true nature of Terminal ever got out there, along with how Orb funded it using what I'm assuming are embezzled funds, the peace of the Cosmic Era is very fragile at the end of Destiny.
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>>13828093
>I could definitely see ZAFT undergoing a civil war over these kinds of things in addition to raising hostilities to Kira and Lacus policing the world.

They wouldn't have surrendered in the first place if they weren't ok with that. Any complaints about Kira and Lacus's actions in Destiny can basically be countered with "You worked for an overlord that had death lasers" and then they're at a moral stalemate stalemate. Really though if Shinn the champion of Durandal who worshiped the ground he walked on is in their corner the rest of Zaft is hardly a problem.

>And if the true nature of Terminal ever got out there, along with how Orb funded it using what I'm assuming are embezzled funds, the peace of the Cosmic Era is very fragile at the end of Destiny.

Lol what? Not only would nobody in Orb or EA care about who funded what. Everyone who was any sort of trouble was dealt with at the end of Destiny, either by Durandal or Lacus and Kira themselves. They're at peace. Everyone who would even be a threat to peace is either on team Lacus or dead. We had the Librarian Works which were wiped out before they were able to do anything at all, and Kira and Lacus didn't even get involved. And they're worried about EA remnants?

CE is completely secure. There's a reason they couldn't come with anyone to be a villain in the movie in time.
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>>13821756
>I think SEED is a secretly great anime hidden under a horrible production. It looks like hell but somehow draws me into the drama,
Then go watch some shitty soap opera cause that is the level SEED is at

> mobile suit design across the board is A++.
The MS design is a mess. they take older designs and stick a mass of shit on top be it wings, guns or just spikes.
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>>13821756
> Regular MS don't really have a chance
The average piloting level of CE grunts is on toddler level
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>>13829967
That can be easily explained by..... Kira made the Natural OS and some components of said OS were implemented by ZAFT to reduce workload. Let's just say that Kira has the kill switch.
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>>13821756
>Sometimes the HOW isn't super-important.

It is not, but it should make sense in-verse which it did not in CA.
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>>13820321
>That's weird, because I don't remember Flay or Natarle piloting any robots.
Fllay was originally conceived as the pilot of the Strike Rouge. It's even implied during the interrogation of the Archangel's crewmembers that she'll have "a role in the Earth Alliance" as the daugther of George Allster.

As for Natarle, she was a great character, but only by comparison with the rest of the imbeciles in the plot. There was lots more that could've been done with her, although the same could be said of the whole damn series.
And she is in command of something cool: the Archangel/Dominion.
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>>13820337
>It's poor form to pretend you watched anime you really didn't anon.

>>13821127
>It must be hard living with a mental handicap.

>>13823325
>Oh look someone else that never watched a show but is pretending they did.

>>13823525
>Based on your typing you were 3 years old at the time?

>>13823588
>Have you considered not posting about subjects you don't know anything about in a language you can't use?

Your passive-agressive bullshit would probably be better used in Gawker/Kotaku's comment section.
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>>13829860
>if Shinn the champion of Durandal who worshiped the ground he walked on is in their corner
Which was utter bullshit. I understand that many complained that the original finale (having Shinn and Lunamaria crying on the moon, while Kira and the others posed victoriously) did not have any sort of closure.

But, in all seriousness, was that any worse than the alternative?

The Final Plus/Special Edition/Remaster finale gave us an epilogue with Kira being utterly magnanimous towards Shinn, who joins then to "defend the peace". Apart from making Kira an even bigger Mary Sue than he already was (completing his utter hijack of the whole setting), any development Shinn could've had is lost, since Kira is the one who has to appear to "release" Shinn from his contrition.

The original finale provided a window of opportunity for a sequel movie/OVA, with Shinn left as the only person who rejects Lacus' and Kira's new world order. Give him a repaired/upgraded Destiny with remote weapons (perhaps rebuilt by ZAFT malcontents), while Lacus made the poor decision to commit to MS disarmament a la Gundam Wing.
There's your fucking movie, Morosawa. Made out of the utter disaster of Destiny's final episode.
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>>13830777
I preferred the original finale myself, I just felt that the epilogue wasn't really needed and was just there to make Kira's dick bigger.

I mean why would Shinn join him, after everything that happened?
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>>13830783
>I mean why would Shinn join him, after everything that happened?
As you well said, it wasn't about Shinn, but Kira.
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>>13830783
Because Shinn fans were pissed? After all, before Final Plus Fukuda said that he had no intention of of Shinn joining Kira and that he envisioned Shinn losing everything except Lunamaria.

Considering Shinn was a popular character and Japanese fans did feel Kira hijacked the show, I'm guessing that scene was Fukuda backpeddling to deal with the backlash.

"No look, Shinn has a happy ending. See? He's fighting for peace alongside Kira. Everything's happy!"
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>>13830777
>Movie by Morosawa again
I prefer Tomino to repair CE era.
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>>13830777
Poor Shinn. I recall that in the original plan, Shinn is supposed to win against Kira, hence Destiny > Freedom.
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>>13830820
>Considering Shinn was a popular character and Japanese fans did feel Kira hijacked the show,
If I were a Shinn fan (and I'm certainly not), I'd be more pissed about his treatment in Final Plus than the original, as the latter at least treats him like an individual character, instead of becoming another one of Kira's brainwashed hens.
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>>13830829
This.
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>>13830829
I don't think Shinn has a lot of fans in nips.
KIra is still popular as shown by that Newtype pool.
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>>13830825
One thing that I cannot understand is, if Sunrise/Bandai have the interest to make a CE movie, then why were they waiting for Morosawa (and Fukuda) to come up with a screenplay, rather than booting the couple of idiots off Gundam and put someone competent?

>>13830838
Shinn's actual (whether during Destiny's run or to this day) popularity evades me. I was just replying basing myself on what >>13830820 said. Which is basically hearsay unless we see some sources.
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>>13830842
>Shinn's actual (whether during Destiny's run or to this day) popularity evades me. I was just replying basing myself on what >>13830820 (You) said. Which is basically hearsay unless we see some sources.

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/8772/Newtypes-Top-30-Anime-Characters-of-Decade-and-Gender/

Top 30 Male characters of the 2000's.

Shinn is at #17, years after Destiny ended.

Cagalli was the #1 girl.
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>>13830842
>One thing that I cannot understand is, if Sunrise/Bandai have the interest to make a CE movie, then why were they waiting for Morosawa (and Fukuda) to come up with a screenplay, rather than booting the couple of idiots off Gundam and put someone competent?

Banrise isn't that interested. The thing about the Cosmic Era is that it's fans don't really care about the mecha, what they love is Kira and Lacus. CE fans don't support things without those two in it, and using the old cast makes it difficult for new entries to be accessible to new viewers (which Destiny gave up at some point).

Ratings were down for Destiny despite Bandai giving Fukuda more money to make it (33,000,000 yen per episode whereas SEED has 25,000,000). Shinn didn't take off like Kira did, and we've all heard the stories of gunpla not selling.

Despite still having solid ratings and great DVD sales, they made the decision to move onto a new AU in order to bring new blood to the franchise.

> SEED fans are now entering the work force. Fans like them are important. However, maintaining the current status quo won't allow Gundam to survive another 10 years. We have to create new fans. The new Gundam is for that. We think we will gain new fans with a new Gundam that is neither UC nor CE. - Yasuo Miyakawa, SEED Producer

The movie is really a formality at this point, something to try and milk Kira one last time before closing the book on the CE forever. The original plans for making it the new UC lay dead and buried. SEED and Destiny still have their fans who want the movie, so they'll never outright cancel it. And there were enough people who liked Fukuda's work that replacing him would only attract controversy. Just look at what happens when they replace VA's in Japan.
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>>13830903
>what they love is Kira and Lacus.

Because Japan sees them as the perfect couple.
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>>13830903
>And there were enough people who liked Fukuda's work that replacing him would only attract controversy. Just look at what happens when they replace VA's in Japan.
I don't think doing the switch in staffers like directors or screenwriters has the same emotional undertones in the Japanese audience as changing voice actors.

You also have to remember that Fukuda burned a lot of bridges with people in Sunrise back when he made SEED and Destiny, with his arrogant way of directing that forced the animation staff to recycle shots over and over. It's probably the reason why he was made "Associate Producer" rather than full-fledged director for Cross Ange, despite it having his greasy mitts all over it.

If Sunrise wanted to make that "formality to milk the CE one last time", it makes a lot more sense that they just replaced Fukuda and Morosawa with different, more competent people. Apart from the reasons that you mentioned (which have a lot of merit), I'm sure there's some arcane Japanese reason why Sunrise won't change them; some bullshit like "the director is always attached to the main projects of this and that franchise" or something like that.
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>>13830827

I'd hope you have actual source for that since there's no way Fukuda would less Kira lose "now"

>>13830829

>Instead of becoming another one of Kira's brainwashed hens

Too late
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>>13830911
>Because Japan sees them as the perfect couple.
Do they really? I never understood why

Like okay people enjoy some shitty characters, people can obsess over shitty characters especially when it comes to anime. but Kira and Lacus are just on another level of long term obsessive love
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>>13831111
>Do they really? I never understood why
Hardcore Gundam and mecha fans take issue with them (well, they take issue with SEED in general) but the pair are still beloved by the casual/younger/fujo audiences they attracted. They are Japan's version of Edward and Bella, looks sweet until you actually start thinking about it.
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>>13831155
But they don't look sweet! They barely interact with anything other than pseudo-philosophical gibberish.

There was a scene early in Destiny where Lacus asleep was in bed, and at first I thought that the person she was embracing was Kira. I was struck for a moment with the sense that this image actually worked, that it portrayed he in a vulnerable moment for a change, and was almost sweet, even though I dislked both of them.

Then I realised she was just spooning one of the orphans. Kira was outside staring off into the night sky and brooding, because of course he was.

Kira and Lacus have no chemistry, and that twilight example doesn't work because Edward and Bella actually have more than them! Every other couple scene before the final battle of SEED (Athrun/Cagalli, Ramius/Mu etc) had had some character build up and some history and was actually somewhat sweet. Kira and Lacus's was as sterile as a hospital waiting room.

This isn't Kira's fault though, he did have some character back in SEED. Lacus has no excuse, she's a cardboard cut out with a pullstring that makes her say inane gibberish.
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>>13831008
>You also have to remember that Fukuda burned a lot of bridges with people in Sunrise back when he made SEED and Destiny, with his arrogant way of directing that forced the animation staff to recycle shots over and over.

This is why Fukuda and Morosawa could never get work at other studios. While Destiny made bank, it still looked unprofessional. Think about the amount of resources given to Destiny only to end up with flashbacks, recycled animation and stock footage. And a good part of those were reused from first-SEED. It just screams "we were way behind schedule and we had to release something!" Hell, those clip shows at the end would imply they wouldn't have been able to get episodes to air and would have left the station with nothing.

Despite it being a success, Sunrise ended up spending more money on a show that looked far cheaper. It dragged Fukuda and his wife's names through the mud because of their shoddy handling of it that has been subject to many unflattering rumors over the years.

And then Fukuda and Morosawa leave Banrise looking like idiots with the whole movie thing. After all the press the Gundam SEED Forever-Life Episode 3 got and how people were waiting for it, it never materialized because of those two.
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>>13830712
>Fukuda decides he shouldn't have one of the most important and developed characters in the show pilot a robot
>somehow this is proof he only cares about characters as piloting automatons

>>13830842
>One thing that I cannot understand is, if Sunrise/Bandai have the interest to make a CE movie, then why were they waiting for Morosawa (and Fukuda) to come up with a screenplay, rather than booting the couple of idiots off Gundam and put someone competent?
I don't know why haven't they made a UC TV series without Tomino? What is the point of CE without the people that made CE? You can always just make more Gundam.

>>13831008
Producer is a promotion you fucking retard.

>>13831155
Hardcore Gunota never liked AUs from the start. And without America's massive boner for Wing they got over SEED too.

>>13831921
>"we were way behind schedule and we had to release something!"
Of course they were, Bandai made them do 100 episodes, 3 movies, and an OVA in 3 years.
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>>13831932
>Producer is a promotion
Look up the concept of being 'Kicked Upstairs'.
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>>13831936
Doesn't work that way when you have direct authority over the position you vacated buddy.
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>>13831943
Man, if you watched Cross Ange you'd be able to tell that the rest of the staff were taking Fukuda's stupid bullshit and running with it for fun.
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>>13831936
Weren't there rumors out of 2ch that whenever Fukuda didn't get his way, he went whining to his bosses?
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>>13831958
I am sure there are "2ch rumours" that he walks around the studio without pants and throws feces at animators while screaming Tomino is the anti-Christ too.
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>>13830777
I love the flawless victory pose
it sums up everything that was wrong with seed destiny
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>>13831932
>Fukuda decides he shouldn't have one of the most important and developed characters in the show pilot a robot
>somehow this is proof he only cares about characters as piloting automatons
It is, because the only point of Fllay in the end was to serve as Kira's Lalah Sune. And any and all development she had stopped dead the second she was kidnapped by Rau.

>What is the point of CE without the people that made CE?
I don't know... ratings? competence? sticking to a budget? Nobody takes this "setting = staff" as seriously as fucking Sunrise

>Producer is a promotion you fucking retard.
In the context of a particular show, it isn't. It leaves you with less hands-on power in regards to the specifics of animation. Which is, like it or not, Fukuda's strength.

>3 movies
Compilation movies, which are hacked from TV footage.
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>>13831943

He was strategically moved to a spot where he still had creative control but couldn't mess with the budget have his wife write the scripts or piss off the VAs, the things that Destiny almost got shut down because they couldn't make deadline over.
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>>13830838

When Destiny was airing very few people actually gave a crap about Shinn, because Suzumura was a relatively rookie and team Kira was insanely popular and beloved all over Japan. Him not liking them and not cooperating with them gave him instant hate (kind of like how Geass characters popularity rose and fell based on whether they were in opposition to Lelouch or not). Final plus making him a Kira loyalist was a last ditch effort to make people like him in time for the then upcoming film.

Years later, Suzumura had star roles in Gintama, FF7 and Kamen Rider, which elevated him to a VA popularity level where basically any character he plays will have instant popularity, and this retroactively includes Shinn. So yeah now Shinn ranks and fans like him.

But in 2004? Nobody cared. They just wanted more Kira Athrun Cagalli Lacus.
>>
Shinn was one of the biggest victims of Destiny.

He had a lot of potential and it was a character I initially empathized with when he called the Atha's bullshit (Orb got rekt because of Cagalli's father's stubbornness, a good leader would have spared his nation and gone into a reluctant alliance with Azrael) and that despite his edge with that he still seemed to be a cool guy with his friends.

However as Destiny advanced he became more and more irrational and angry. By the end he was being blatantly manipulated and was mentally unstable to the point of having hallucinations about Stella and his dead sister, making him attack Lunamaria.

And the worst part is that this degeneration wasn't done to explore his character, it was all done to make Kira look good, because who would oppose Jesus and Pink Hime but a retard who is being manipulated by some lunatics?

And, well, Remaster's ending took away any dignity he had left.
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>>13832418
>a good leader would have spared his nation and gone into a reluctant alliance with Azrael

Considering Azrael would have happily seen half the population of Orb exterminated as abominations, it's a little harder to go with the "Just give them what the want and hope they go away" answer here.

Especially because, let's face it, it's never JUST that with someone like Azrael. Once he's done with ZAFT, he's not just gonna turn a blind eye to Orb sheltering Coordinators.
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>>13832485

Yeah. Everyone likes to blame Uzumi cause they get sick of his speeches but really there was no good solution there for anyone involved no matter what anyone said or did previously.

Azrael wanted all Cooridnators and Naturals that would accept them dead, and that's what Orb was. There was never a way out that wasn't gonna end in pain. Nor would any of Orb's shady actions earlier have any effect on Azrael's decisions in any way.

Azrael says to himself as much he was going there wanting to start a fight to test out his new Gundam's and because he didn't Orb in principle.
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>>13832485

I understand that Orb was in a terrible position, but there were other ways than that last stand and final sudoku.

Giving Azrael the space port would have at least given him more time, or asking for ZAFT support would have made their defeat less likely. I don't think ZAFT at that point could protect them much but it's better than nothing.

However, out of principle, he decided to make Orb fight alone and had his nation severely damaged because of this.

In the grand scheme of things he did the right thing for the world and he valiantly kept to his morals to the end, however as Orb's ruler it was a bad decision and the one that made defeat faster and the most likely.
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>>13832583
>In the grand scheme of things he did the right thing for the world and he valiantly kept to his morals to the end, however as Orb's ruler it was a bad decision and the one that made defeat faster and the most likely.
Did Uzumi and his supporters really have to blow themselves up?
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>>13832548
He could have not blown himself and every single one of his main supporters up, at least.
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>>13832689

I think he wanted to do one of those honorrabrru things and go down with his nation.
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>>13832309
>couldn't mess with the budget
But that is specifically what a producer does.

>have his wife write the scripts
Sure he could, considering one of the other producers could have the seiyuu he may or may not have been fucking voice Salia and sing the ED.

>piss off the VAs
He directly worked with them

Do you have any fucking clue what you're talking about?

>>13832013
>It leaves you with less hands-on power in regards to the specifics of animation
Considering the show had every single Fukuda-ism possible in animation I don't see what impact this conceivably had. Fukuda's role in Cross Ange didn't seem significantly different than something like Kawamori's in recent Macross.
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>>13832418
I never liked Shinn
back since the very first episode where he cries like a bitch at the freedom while it fights the druggies I knew he was going to be shit
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>>13831753
Lacus had zero chemistry with Athrun too. It wouldn't surprise me if they pulled the "Cagalli is actually Kira's sister" stunt to justify swapping the pairings around.

>>13832726
>>13832689
Blowing himself up makes sense. Taking all of his supporters with him, allowing the Seirans to run amok later on, is fucking stupid.
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>>13833680
That's because they did not allow Lacus to struggle with things. Even Kira in GSD was likely spurred on by the fear of Losing Lacus, Lacus on ep.39 doesn't even worry a bit when the Eternal was in legit danger(it took Athrun to prod Kira into saving them)
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>>13833680
Considering how much of a Star Wars fan fukuda is I doubt that was the reason for making them related.
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>>13833695
He didn't fanboy enough. considering that Luke ended up with a redhead who wanted him dead at first

Pic related
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Kira needed a rival who can kick his ass once in a while and humble that self righteous faggot.
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>>13833710
NOT CANNON
who was her again?
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>>13832548
>>13832583
The main issue is the sheer importance that a minuscule nation such as Orb is supposed to have in a global conflict. That's a problem in the writing itself.

It would've made more sense if Orb was just collateral damage in the war (ie. Shinn's family, but on a national scale), rather than this super-powerful keystone country on which the course of the entire war fully depends on.

Also, Uzumi and his supporters' suicide made absolutely zero sense, except to create drama in the cheapest possible manner. How difficult could've been for them to just escape in the Kusanagi and make an exile government? Live to die another day, you idiots.
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>>13833899
Mara Jade Skywalker
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>>13834285
>this super-powerful keystone country on which the course of the entire war fully depends on.

In Seed it really wasn't. It had a mass driver, which was really useful and helpful but even when the EA was denied it they just captured another one like a week later. It only had a handful of MS's that were all wiped out by the wars end and the Gundam's stolen from other factions did all of the heavy lifting. Orb wouldn't have gotten far on it's own.

In Destiny it suddenly has a massive army that's feared world wide, but even then it mostly relies on help from guys with tech from other countries to keep it from getting smoked.
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>>13832746
this
then there is that episode where he uses the sword impulse and kills the guy that got him out of his PSTD state
really? you expect me to like such a shit guy? Shinn should have fucking died crushed by the freedom's foot back then during the fight vs the druggies in orb
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>>13835741
>In Seed it really wasn't.
It was. In dialogue, Attha mentions that, if Orb decided to support the Earth Alliance, ZAFT would fall (and viceversa). That's what I mean with "powerful keystone country" in the middle of the war.
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>>13835752
You're retarded. Shinn didn't know Todaka was on the Orb ship. Shinn probably wouldn't have even remembered him considering how much shock he was in. People like you who expect the characters to be all knowing need to go. Kira killed Andy's wife and tried to kill Andy despite them being nice to him because they were attacking him. Shinn killed Todaka because Todaka was attacking him.
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>>13834285
>The main issue is the sheer importance that a minuscule nation such as Orb is supposed to have in a global conflict. That's a problem in the writing itself.
He says while discussing a franchise founded on 10% of the population declaring war on and successfully invading the other 90%.

Orb is pretty much certainly a bigger country than the PLANTs and the third space superpower with a bunch of tactically relevant installations and state of the art technology related to their space presence.

>>13834285
It's a reflection of Japanese politics, I guess. Orb doesn't have any sort of government vacuum afterwards because it is only the Athha faction leaders that died for their sheiumufuru disupurei and another family just takes over immediately. They would have stepped down to take responsibility anyways.
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>>13835786
>declaring war on and successfully invading the other 90%.
You're confusing UC with CE. Don't.

First of all, the Earth Alliance is not a "one-world government" like the myriad "Federations". It's not even a plurality of Earth's nations. A number of them actively support ZAFT or are neutral.

Second, ZAFT's campaign was much smaller than Zeon's. Their victories by the time of the attack on Heliopolis were pretty much limited to support their allies on Earth and neutralize a single spaceport (the other would fall a while later, and the third after Spitbreak). As a result, the Earth Alliance was losing out of sheer incompetence and technological inferiority.

>Orb is pretty much certainly a bigger country than the PLANTs
Doubtful in every respect.

>Orb doesn't have any sort of government vacuum afterwards
Someone here said that, before the Kusanagi/Archangel managed to escape, the whole archipelago was abandoned.
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>>13835752
>>13835775
What should've happened is that Shinn should have found out that he killed Todaka, the one Orb officer who helped him when he lost his family. Make him feel awful about it and force some character development that his actions have consequences.
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>>13836404

I really doubt Shinn would have cared. He'd probably have just been "well too bad but the guy was doing Orb's bidding so fuck him."
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>>13836404

That would have to depend on Shinn being able to realize that at all. He had exactly one good chance to interact with Todoka; when the Minerva berthed at Orb they could have arranged leave into the city before the EA got their fingers in. Shinn wanders around and stumbles onto the war memorial with Todoka there, perhaps paying respects or something, then they could have a conversant topic between the two. The actual Shinn/Todoka link is just the typical "we're on different sides" trend as seen in SEED with Kira and Athrun but reused in a much less relevant role in Destiny where it comes off more as cheap-tragic than actually being tragic. Shinn has literally zero knowledge of Todoka's existence and vice versa, the captain doesn't even know who's on the Impulse, he's just "Oh well, gotta do my duty as an officer of Orb even though this noble-bred brat is giving me spoiled orders."

Maybe if SEED D. was ZAFT teaming up with an Earth faction to find and neutralize leftovers from the First BVW, the series would be well-spent explaining how Blue Cosmos managed to get such a stranglehold on the Atlantic Federation, and later on, the EA, in the first place, and Bandai still gets to sell their kits as the new Blue Cosmos 2.0, after having stolen MSes out from Armory 1 with the help of saboteurs (I don't know, gene-masking drugs to get through customs?), launch attacks from mobile submarine bases and amongst Earth's debris belt. The main progression doesn't even need to change, they can still have their super all-out war at the end when Blue Cosmos 2.0 calls back their super duper asteroid base with a massive Earth-destroying cannon attached to its ass end.

They could also stand to give the Extended 2.0 more personality with a war orphan base. At least the dynamic between Shinn and Stella would be greatly expanded when they yell at each other because "No, it's YOUR fault!" until Stella nearly keels over because muh drugs.

Oh well.
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>>13837688
>They could also stand to give the Extended 2.0 more personality with a war orphan base.

And immediately I realized I done fucked up because they (probably) ARE war orphans.

When I said war orphans base, I meant that their memories would play into shaping their personalities as much as Shinn's did. Maybe Auel and his family were out when the first N-Jammer landed onto his dad, mom, and baby brother right in front of him, I dunno. Maybe Stella hailed from Europe where ZAFT invasion of Gibraltar and the devastation from surrounding regions caused by the crossfire between ZAFT and the Eurasian Federation forced her family from the area and her only parent and mother later died in a shit-ass refugee camp or somesuch because winter in a tent city with no heating must be so comfortable. Literally infinite possibilities and a lot more diverse than "Hey trash, we picked you out from somewhere, here's your kid gown and standard-issue handcannon, now kill everyone in the room".
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There's something that evades me: the Z.A.K.U. Warrior and Phantom are the exact same unit, with the Warrior just having an extra shield and the horn, correct?
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>>13839613
The Phantom is supposedly a variant given to ace pilots.
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>>13839613
>>13839657

iirc the Phantom has no extra thrusters or increased speed or whatsoever. Just an additional shield with more space for beam rifle magazines and the head horn for use as a commander-type unit.
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>>13839657
>>13839613
>>13839664
I've never seen a Phantom with the Gunner pack.
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>>13839665

Maybe the animating staff held a poll on which packs they'd like to animate for background fodder and the Gunner Phantom came in dead last.

Slash Warrior is slightly better, in that it gets approximately one appearance during the Orb invasion.
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>>13840540
It did show up in SDGO at least
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>>13840540
There were too many Blaze packs.
I wonder if they could've made a Perfect ZAKU.
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>>13840551

It's officially acknowledged at least, they just never got to showing it in typical Bandai material so you end up with things like it appearing in SDGO. Does it appear in any G-Gens?

I just wonder why Dearka ended up with a Phantom Blaze instead of a Phantom Gunner. Reasonable assumption is that they could reuse not just the choreography of Rey's but the animation itself, but that's just as good an assumption as anyone else's.
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>>13840630
Only gets worse with the Remaster.
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>>13840630
In G Gen, you get only the standard ZAKU and the blaze pack. Gunner and Slash packs are exclusive to Luna and Yzak's custom units.
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>>13839665
It doesn't make any fucking sense really. It technically fits but the shield is still mostly in the way and it isn't really a commander kind of equipment option in a radio/radar compromised environment.

Blaze fits Dearka just as well as Gunner anyways, a large low RoF cannon was only a small part of the Buster's armaments.
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>>13840551

And in Battle Destiny
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>>13837286
Why would Shinn not care about the guy that basically saved his life?
The reason why Shinn hates Orb so much is because they let him down, remember when he goes back to Orb, he's not spitting on all the civilians and shit, he's all sad and angry and shit.

I don't blame you for not remembering his character, the writers didn't do it either
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>>13823271
How did Lacus take zaft by force? There was no leadership. Durandal's dead. There's a power vacuum and so they elect her to take over.

Also, Isn't Celestial Being doing the same thing? Armed interventions in the name of peace?
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>>13841154
Every single person in 00 including Celestial Being members know their goal is contradictory. It's talked about multiple times in season 1 by multiple characters. SEED doesn't treat what Kira and Co do as controversial. They are treated as heroes by the show itself with people who question them eventually joining up, dying or having their characters rewritten to look terrible.
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>>13841163
At the start of Destiny, Lacus was on exile, Athrun, Yzak and Dearka were literally spared from treason court.
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>>13841154
Because she showed up with an army, and then eventually is shown to be it's leader?
It's not like Durandal had everyone hypotized or something, So when did they decide that Lacus should be the Chairwoman of ZAFT? Even if they decided that the Destiny Plan was a terrible idea and they made a mistake, everyone had just decided that Lacus should be the one to rule them?

How can it not be seen as anything other than a military take-over?
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>>13841185
Lacus was on a self imposed exile. As we saw with Meer if she decided to just show up out of the blue one day singing and preaching peace the people of Plant would welcome her back. I wasn't even speaking about their actions in Seed anyway. I was talking about Destiny where they can do no wrong.
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>>13841201
I never watched the special editions or the extra scenes. So Lacus just appears out of nowhere, hugs Kira, and the series ends. It was never explained how she got there in the first place.
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>>13841085

Shinn thinks nothing of killing Orb soldiers. Why would he care about one more?

Yeah at first he's not all for the destruction of Orb (though by the end he is) but he clearly believes that everyone in Orb should have forsaken like he did, and treats anyone that still believes in it and wants to live there as a fool based on him constantly trashing anyone who praises the Atha's and asking Athrun why on earth he would possibly want to go back and live there.
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>>13841228

That IS the special edition.

They never explain anything about the situation and you just have to guess based on the scene that has nothing but the ED music playing (For example Athrun is wearing an Orb uniform so we can infer he didn't go back to Zaft again). We have no idea what happened at the end beyond Zaft and Orb made peace (and who knows what happened to EA)

Which is still an improvement over the original ending which is just team Kira posing triumphantly over the destroyed Messiah with no explaination at all how the political situation would be resolved or even if the rest of Zaft's still significant forces were gonna keep fighting or not.
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>>13809688
Not anyone can used DRAGOONs system that Freedom used.

Kira can show 100% power of Freedom, that why his is best pilot for it.

True to be told, he will be great pilot for Destiny too.
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>>13840630
>>13840660
>>13840978
I wish then I could give my qt ZAFT girl the Gunner she deserves instead of Lunamaria's scraps
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>>13841371
>Not anyone can used DRAGOONs system that Freedom used.

Actually they can because all Gundam's with it aside from Providence have a special computer that allows them to bypass needing to be spatially aware. Pointless since Rey and Kira who pilot them are spatially aware anyway, but still.

>Kira can show 100% power of Freedom, that why his is best pilot for it.

So could Athrun or any top tier pilot. That being said yes Kira is very skilled and not anyone can just get into a high powered Gundam and zip around it it like he does.

>True to be told, he will be great pilot for Destiny too.

He could make it work yes, just like Shinn could do well in SF.
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>>13841163

Just look at what happened to CB. They weren't supposed to be the heroes who would lead humanity, they were supposed to be the villains humanity unites against to defeat. And that is what happened by the end of season 1, the nations of the world united to take them down. Hell, even after defeating the A-Laws we're told by the Kati that if they try to do their thing again, the Federation will arise to oppose them. They're not being given a free pass to do what they want.

In Destiny, Kira's resolve to police the world is treated like a good thing. 00 showed us the world would react. The hypocrisy isn't ignored, it's discussed. Hell, DWG2 pointed out Kira's bullshit more than Destiny ever did.

> Kira: I have a world to protect. If you don't stop fighting, I'm going to take you out!
> Ramba Ral: So you're fighting a war to stop a war. Where does that vicious cycle end?
> Ramba Ral: Know your history. Fighting never leads to peace. It only leads to more fighting.
> (Ral defeats Kira)
> Ramba Ral: Once a battle starts, it's too late. The only question becomes live, or die?
> Kira: ...
> Ramba Ral: (laughs) Your problem is you naivete. Are you really making more friends, or more enemies?

Celestial Being shows the latter. If Kira is just going to shoot at both sides while disregarding why they are fighting, he's going to become the bad guy sooner or later.
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>>13842101
It's always fun when Kira gets called out for his actions.
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>>13842109
> (Kira blows up some enemies)
> Kira: Ach.
> Master Asia: Hmm. Fearsome power.
> Kira: I don't want to shoot Don't make me.
> Master: Hopeless child. You don't have to do me any favors.
> Athrun: Kira!
> Master: I have nothing but pity for those who are beaten in battle by someone like you. An over-reliance on weapons is a sure sign of weakness in a fighter.
> Athrun: Weakness?
> Master: I'm curious to see how someone with your amateur skills fares against the School of Master Asia. Domon!
> Domon: Yes, Master!
> Master: Show me your skills.
>(Master fights and defeats Kira)
>Kira: I have more to offer than power. No one understands that. But I knew that all along, so long as I use that power to achieve my ends no one will take me seriously.
> Master: All that power made you complacent. Talking isn't enough. You must show your true self to others.
> (Master defeats Athrun)
> Athrun: We didn't want to make enemies. We didn't want to make enemies. That's all we ever thought about. Perhaps that's why we turned away from them without even noticing. But the fact is, all of us have our enemies. Admitting that has opened my eyes to this truth.
> Master: One cannot live without making a few enemies. There's no shame in that. What is shameful is willfully ignoring the enemies you have made. Train harder.
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>>13809688
Both.

Freedom itself was designed to be a high-mobility suit with impressive ranged capabilities and infinite power to keep it fighting (compared to all the battery-powered MS), with no regard to cost limitations.

Kira was an Ultimate Coordinator with an unexpected bonus of a berserker mode, and already had even better reflexes and abilities than any other Coordinator. And depending on sources you believe, is also a perfect stud to breed with (unlike regular Coordinators).
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>>13842150
Freedom is basically Duel + Buster in one package, making emphasis on the speed, agility and high firepower
how it would have fared against the Destiny? it was still deemed as one of the most powerful suits even with not beam shields
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>>13841185
To clarify, spared court, he just evaded it by moving to Orb and living under a pseudonym and Dearka was tried, it's just that his circumstances were less extreme, so he got off with being busted down a few ranks. The only one that got spared is Yzak, who didn't commit treason, but did commit war crimes, and was due to be executed until Durandal pulled some strings.
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>>13842175
Freedom may or may not have tied with Destiny. We never really ever saw Kira go all out with the Freedom; he still didn't either once he got the S.Freedom (remember he just insulted Shinn with a double railgun burst to warn him he could finish him off if he was serious).

I'd imagine though that with the rapid technological advancement rate, Destiny could probably defeat the Freedom, assuming that Freedom wasn't regularly updated to second gen status like the Impulse or Destiny during the course of its battles during Destiny. As well, we don't know how much of an advantage Destiny's WoL would provide in terms of mobility compared to the Freedom, which was also designed with mobility from the outset; and the only real difference is that Destiny's WoL uses 2 massive thrusters and uses a lot of energy (even if the shutdown was retconned, various materials imply it can't use it continuously) while Freedom used 8 wings with smaller thrusters and can use them continuously.

I'd assume that in CQC range, Destiny might have the advantage if only because its WoL allows it to turn fairly fast and it does carry more melee equipment than the Freedom. In ranged combat, base Freedom has the advantage of 2 main guns vs Destiny's 1 main gun, on top of the railguns and beam rifle (Destiny only had the beam rifle and 2 beam boomerangs, which require stowing the rifle and beam cannon to take out and toss them).

So really, it'd be pretty close, though how close depends on Freedom's maintenance and upgrades (if it even received any). After all, Akatsuki is technically an even older Generation 1 MS model and it could kick the ass of Generation 2 MS with little effort (ignoring character incompetence due to writing interference).
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>>13841440
1 you are mistaken Freedom system with SF system

>or any top tier pilot
Kira had zero training, and we are talking about Seed universes.

>He could make it work yes, just like Shinn could do well in SF.
That false, Kira can use full power of Destiny while Shin can't use full power of Freedom
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>>13809688
B-But I'm so edgy now you guys...
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>>13841163
But everyone that isn't a gay pedo, artificially created monster, child soldier training terrorist, or worst son joins CB's side by the movie.
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>>13842453
I even have new gimmicks that are pointless and impair my field of vision like these edgy new fins on my cannons, and the new parts that extend & open up for no reason!
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>>13842462
I mean, just look at how edgy my new wings are! They're totally not a blatant way to cash in on the edgy-ness of the Destiny Gundam I swear!
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>>13842471
Just look at my awesome new cannons with pointless fins! They like, make my laser beam shot more aerodynamic or something! Right?
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>>13842455
CB by the time of the movie has effectively become semi-authorized by the Federation. Legally, they're obligated to apprehend CB, but since most of the current high-ranking military staff owes their positions to CB's actions and CB has largely ceased to conduct interventions, they're not really trying particularly hard. The CB movie is evidence of this, as it essentially treats them as friends of the Federation who defeated the huge evil that turned federation troops into personal army. This helps save face and legitimize the shift in leadership.
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>>13842453
yes and I love you
fuck the haters
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Plus have you seen my bangin' new and improved Crooked V-Fin? Who WOULDN'T want to buy me now??
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>>13842490
Hopefully Wing Zero is next on the 2.0 list. It got a new head design revealed recently.
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>>13810390
Top kek
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>>13842471
the wings are the same you retard
only difference are those extra parts of the plasma cannons
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>>13843951
Oh yes, please, tell us again oh great cocksucking, cum-gargling asshat how the wings are exactly the same.
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>>13844690
>circles the cannons three times
Good job retard.

The notches in the bottom of he wings are barely anything by MG redesign standards, the old MG already added all those notches and shit. (the biggest thing is they actually fucked the wing tips by having the black come down over the blue)

There's also barely anything Destiny-like about either. (particularly any of Destiny's figure redesigns)
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>>13844792
>actually look at filename
Oh okay.

I mean I get Destiny has that whole fin jutting out the top of the wing thing going on when the wings are closed that makes the Okawara version kind of sort of have a similar shape to Freedom 2.0's wings but it's not like that was a selling point.
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