The idea in UC that spoacenoids are poor and living in destitute conditions while Earth dwellers are rich is such an illogical premise. Shouldn't it be the other way around? How the Hell can anyone but the rich possibly afford to get to space and live in artificial habitats? How can space colonies possibly have lower property values than any dirt patch on Earth? If the Earth is such a ravaged and polluted shithole as everyone claims it is, shouldn't the rich not be living there?
the colonies are basically forced refugee containers
space travel in UC is cheap enough that they can afford to capture and mine asteroids and space shuttles are cheap like airliner tickets
colonies are lands subsidized by the earth government
the earth is big, there's still nice land that isn't fucked up
Pretty much. There's a bit about Sayla's back story in the novels that explains it.
If you want to live in the major areas of Earth you need to be politically desirable and/or well off for them to let you stay. If you're living in some third world village they could not give a shit what you do though.
But that's a stupid, stupid plan.
You could have taken the 100 trillion dollars it would have taken to build and fill the multiple self contained long term space colonies and just... use those resources to build better infrastructure on earth.
Or, if absolutely necessary, build ocean habitats instead at a fraction of the cost of space colonies for the exact same effect.
Instead, the earth federation spent trillions of dollars to build habitats in the hardest location to reach they possible could, with a standard of living better than I have right now, and gave loads of poor people free houses and jobs up there. And the spacenoids feel oppressed by this.
None of this makes any goddamn sense, because shipping your prisoners off to Australia stops making sense when in order to do so you first have to construct the continent of Australia.
You have to admit that you're trying to rationalize the equivalent of original trilogy Star Wars.
NONE of this makes any sense, physically or economically. It's just a backstory you just up and swallow because it gives a reason for the characters to do anything.
The setting was made up post-facto for the characters to have a battleground; not the other way around. Fluff was later added to make this more sensible for fans, such as the Federation being corrupt, Zeon having a technical leg to stand on for their rebellion, etc.
It's all rationalization for honest nonsense because that's the way the fans have liked it in their 1979 giant robot series blossoming into something far larger than it technically deserved on its own rights.
tl;dr don't think too hard about it.
You're watching a setting about 18m humanoid robots that are better than tanks, have near-limitless energy sources that are put to better use outside of those robots, and dubiously and nebulously psychic dickbags that are technically excellent supersoldiers.
Logical, this ain't. Star Wars makes more coherent sense, and that's goddamn Star Wars with the ewoks and wookies.
The difference is that Star Wars only ever asks that I sit back and have fun, while occasionally get invested in whether a particular character lives or dies.
Gundam pretends to be serious and have a message and shit. All these soliliquies and philosophy debates and 'war is bad m'kay?' posturing really doesn't work when the underlying cause of all of their problems has less to do with political or economic inequality and more to do with the fact that they had three times the resources they would have needed to solve all of their problems and they pissed them away in the most blitheringly stupid way possible.
This. But we don't even have to stop here. Since fluff is written as an after thought, we can always add our redraw it to make it better. Rather than complaining about our, it's more fun and useful to imagine a better background and discuss about various possibilities.
I also want to remind everyone that the first space colony wasn't the O'Neill type, but a lunar colony. Hell, even the Jupiter fleet, and whatever ramshackle station there is for the helium huffing space miners preceded the O'Neill type.
There is literally no possible set of circumstances that allow for building incredibly advanced self contained ecosystems in space to be cheaper than building better infrastructure on Earth, because the colony plan has all of the same components as the Earth plan + hundreds of other steps.
Even if space travel is basically free, the materials cost of even one space colony is absolutely huge. You basically need to be post-scarcity or near post scarcity for the construction of a space colony to be cheap and easy, and if you are anywhere near post scarcity then literally none of the problems in Gundam would exist.
>There is literally no possible set of circumstances that allow for building incredibly advanced self contained ecosystems in space to be cheaper than building better infrastructure on Earth
There is literally no possible set of circumstances that makes for building giant humanoid robots to take the place of predominantly all military aircraft and tanks and even infantry (because apparently MS can hold captured territory like cities just fine).
It's Gundam. High science fiction it is most certainly NOT.
If you're unsatisfied, it's entirely because you had way too high of hopes for what's a glorified toy commercial ever since the very beginning.
It's a very good toy commercial, and certainly beats out Mighty Max, but you are not going to get high philosophy (even Newtypes and touchy-feely make peace not war bullshit was only because it was a 70's meme about espers and human faux-evolution at the time), you are going to get forced drama and nonsensical betrayals, and pretty piss-poor characterization in most any series.
Stop trying to make Gundam into something it never was, man.
>The difference is that Star Wars only ever asks that I sit back and have fun, while occasionally get invested in whether a particular character lives or dies.
And a giant robot anime aimed at teens and fujoshi (in the latter day) doesn't?
>Gundam pretends to be serious and have a message and shit.
It PRETENDS to be serious and have a message and shit. It's still for teens to give them (junk-)food for thought and make them feel deep.
Earth elite has no idea how it is in colonies.
79 years later spacenoids have already paid their debts after transporting resources to earth , working in space colony factories yet they have no rule of themselves, let alone no one to represent them in the assembly.
Zeon was someone among them who gave them political and philosophical ground work to identify themselves than being treated by earthnoids as enders.
But then history took it's course, and megalomaniacs took over and hijacked his ideology.
Many rebelled while many didn't.
Which is just another setting hole. It simply gets moved-past.
As well, from that standpoint, it's also a measure of cost-effectiveness/result.
In UC, a space colony is very mature technology. While it's overwhelmingly expensive compared to experimental MS, it's very likely to have an eventual recovery of costs economically.
A line of previously-prototype MS that are waaaay too situational and/or high-spec to mass-produce makes vaguely more sense because it produces a very expensive machine for a single soldier when you could very well just make more stable, cheaper MS and outfit more soldiers (all of which have a mostly equivalent chance to die regardless of their MS).
It's like why the Zeon Bishop plan failed; for one of them, they could make three or four normal Zaku IIs and just put four Newtype pilots they find in them, rather than make one Bishop for just one Newtype.
There's many types of colonies, something like Sweetwater is more or less a refugee colony. Texas Colony was a tourist colony, places like Libot, and Zum are apparently very opulent and rich. People forget there's supposed to be hundreds of colonies to a Side, maybe thousands.
Unicorn kinda touched upon this. One of the reasons why the Federation (one world government) was created was to help deal with all the resource management.
Also, some serious desertification + ocean death must have happened for the Feds to consider space colonies over ocean habitats.
The problem we have is that we never really see the Earth in the ecological damaged state it is supposed to be in. We get a few references in Zeta about Africa turning into more of a desert but that's about it. Just about everywhere else we see seems to be doing just fine.
Yeah. Basically every place we see on Earth isn't doing that bad, and you have to recognize that this is AFTER the start of the OYR, where half of the human population got killed off by nukes and colony drops and shit. So, by any logical metric, all of the major cities and shit should have been the ones to get nuked off the map. So we are only seeing the second rate places, because the first rate places got blown up by salty spacenoids.
And everything till seems to be pretty much okay.
>Just about everywhere else we see seems to be doing just fine.
In ZZ I remember when they're flying over Europe and it's all forest, Bright says that Earth has already started to recover, and that they ought to end the conflict so it doesn't get ruined again.
>And everything till seems to be pretty much okay.
In Victory they go to Barcelona, and it's pretty much destroyed and very poor.
This is also a matter of scope.
We NEVER get to see any truly bad place, earth or colonies, in Gundam, quite simply because there's no reason to be there.
All we get is either wasteland or populated areas, so we never get a true idea of how the average Federation citizen lives.
From MSG to CCA, we only get a small picture of pretty important people who get to live in cities and are fairly well-to-do by any metric in-setting.
Nobody's truly starving or poor, quite frankly because we're not here to watch for poor people eking out survival; we're here to watch giant robots and knightly pilots fight (which predominantly preludes the crippling poor, or upon becoming hired pilots, have a much better living standard).
Agreed. But this is a pretty big flaw in such a long running franchise, because it means that the motivating force behind everything that happens (overpopulation, resource shortages, inequality) is entirely an offscreen affair. We don't even get flashbacks or anything.
Worse than being merely offscreen, everything we see onscreen seems to indicate the opposite. "The world is so fucked, there are places right now where everything is shit and no one has any food and everyone is dying its so horrible" *goes to fancy party with a feast and everything* "Man I sure do hate this resource shortage"
You can claim that the footnote is somehow more important than the story, but the fact remains that having that 35 goddamn years to back up its claims, its a pretty major fuckup that gundam hasn't found even one excuse to back up its claims so much as once.
Its not like they didn't have time. You can't tell me that Moon Moon is worth screentime but actually making the whole motivation of the setting have some kind of veracity is not.
The space colonies evolved from lunar and space mining colonies. Naturally, poor people took up that kind of hard work and migrated into space while affluent citizens were able to afford the high economic price of living on Earth. Next.
Do you have any idea that level of extensive training and education it would take to be a first generation space miner? This isn't blue collar work. We are talking exceptional minds in great physical condition who have spent years being prepared for the realities of long term zero-g survival, calculating orbital vectors and dynamics, and surviving in an environment that will kill you at basically any time if you fuck up even mundane procedures.
An just getting them up there in the first place requires a major investment of resources by whoever is funding the mission.
There are literally astronauts with more job requirements. Throwing random ass poor people into that job just means that you are going to clog up earth's orbit with a bunch of dead people in space suits and occasionally crash a space shuttle into something or somewhere important, costing millions of dollars in losses.
Space mining is a rich man's job. Even the laborers have to be experts in their field to be worth giving a seat on the rocket.
This isn't on the same level as painting someone's house, where you can hire just about anyone to perform a simple but physically intensive task. We are talking an enormously complex and dangerous task requiring skills that no one without advanced education is going to have, because no one is going to learn how to function in zero gravity walking around Poortown on Earth.
Don't like the movie Armageddon fool you. It takes more than a week of training to turn people into astronauts.
You're retarded. Space travel and dwelling isn't a hurdle in the UC. And all of the things you're describing, that aren't space travel, applies to real life mining. Fact is, you're convinced about your strawman observation and think the UC's core concept wasn't well thought out despite being a concept that passed through the hands of dozens of people when in fact you're just kind of stupid and don't get it.
I always thought the "only elites live on earth" thing was just Zeek propaganda. The few times we see regular people on earth they're struggling to get by regardless of whether they're living on real dirt or space dirt. It's only the top of the chain that's corrupt, which is why dropping colonies doesn't fix anything.
This is a far-future setting where the majority of humanity grows up in O'neill cylinders. Go watch The Martian or something if you want any semblance of similarity to our actual space problems.
Congratulations! you have now grown up enough to realize that CHARACTER and STORY have always been the main focus of gundam. It is about world war 2 kids who suffer and fly giant robots(hence why it was so popular in japan) it's philosophy is tenuous at best, and it's science is all sorts of fucked.
>Tl,DR it's Gundam not Giant Robo, not LOGH, not Nausicaa, etc,...
You guys didn't even bother to pay attention to the first sentence of my post.
> first generation space miner
Obviously by the time of the OYW when people are flat out living in space and shit this is easier. But for a long, long time this is not going to be a "throw poor people at the problem" kind of task. So the idea of that being the foundation of space settlement (forcing poor people into space to work jobs only really extensively trained people can do) is stupid. On multiple levels, even.
I guess the saying is true. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Enjoy wallowing in your ignorance, clutching shitty writing to your chest like a security blanket.
Your entire premise falls apart when you recognize that talented and smart people can be poor too. That is what is happening with our modern economy. Tons of people with bachelor degrees either unemployed or underemployed. Just imagine how bad education inflation will be 200 years from now. They are poor not because they are dumb or lazy, but because they don't have the connections like the elite do to get a good job. These aren't mcjobbers here.
>Do you have any idea that level of extensive training and education it would take to be a first generation space miner? This isn't blue collar work.
It is blue collar work though. It is blue collar work that pays very well but it is still blue collar work. I hate to break it to you but blue collar jobs generally pay more than white collar jobs do. The fact that you think that blue collar jobs can only be low paying jobs for poor people goes to show how utterly clueless you are about the real world. Working on an oil rig or working on a fracking drill is also complicated hi-tech stuff, but there are still lots of non-post secondary education people work on them.
>leaving them to rot
See episode 1 states that, but honestly outside of the couple ruined areas we see, Earth doesn't look like it's in that bad of shape in G. Unless your leader is a crime lord like Neo Italy, then the nation on earth is poor, but the people seem to be living just fine.
It depend if you are in a post-scarcity economic model.
For all intents and purpose, the Universal Century mimic capitalism with corporation like Anaheim Electronic or the VIST FOUNDATION. But being a FEDERATION it likely don't have TAX HEAVEN anymore. Meaning the money flowing-in would probably be enough to fund thousand Space Program using future technology.
In Gundam, SPACE IMMIGRATION was a Government Project, not a Private Venture.
10 000 000 peoples didn't CROWDFUNDED the colony into existence to live in it, nor did a Private Company build one and attracted people to live in their Tin-Can-with-Warning-label-and-less-luxury.
(also remember that before building all those cool colonies they had to live in asteroids)
> In short :
Unlike our world, space technology was mature in UC.
But there's a world of difference between living on a still hospitable planet, and emigrating into isolated tin can.
it really doesn't matter, either way the korean war resembled the later parts of ww22 any ways.
>In Gundam, SPACE IMMIGRATION was a Government Project, not a Private Venture.
Holy shit, this is a japanese show, mang. A japanese show. All the government did was open the flood gate into construction company's pockets, they didn't actually set up companies themselves as far as we know.
Which is to be expected with this being a japanese show.
>How the Hell can anyone but the rich possibly afford to get to space and live in artificial habitats?...shouldn't the rich not be living there?
You seems to forget that it's not a matter of the Rich or Wealthy, the world forfeited Capitalism for Socialism so the Rich don't really exist anymore. It started as a complete necessity committed by the powerful over the powerless. Eventually this necessity became extortion/manipulation.
>Mostly poor and jobless
>Literally destroying the planet
>All governments unite under one Federation. Assuming it's global socialism, the Federation would have COMPLETE control over the world's resources.
>The Federation uses it's infinite wealth to build completely self sustainable space colonies
>Deports the unemployed
>Unlike on Earth, not performing Civil duties will literally kill you.
>Almost 100% employment because of this.
>The Leaders of the Feds stay on Earth to govern it and heal the environment.
>While this go on Spacenoids also mine precious materials from asteroids and Jupiter.
>Because it's all governed by the Feds, Spacenoids don't have control over the resources that they extracted themselves.
>They get fed up.
>Federations leaders get really greedy.
>How can space colonies possibly have lower property values than any dirt patch on Earth?
Because it's the government that decides what, and they originally stayed on Earth out of necessity.
Im sorry but nigga what? Global socialism? I don't remember any where in the universal century where they mention the unanimous marxist revolution leading to 100% communism. With the existence of private corporations like anaheim i would wager its a free market system where national borders did not really matter any more, since globalisation was likely in overdrive.
> There is literally no possible set of circumstances that allow for building incredibly advanced self contained ecosystems in space to be cheaper than building better infrastructure on Earth, because the colony plan has all of the same components as the Earth plan + hundreds of other steps.
Just to answer that, actually there is many reasons.
There is a LOT of money going into keeping the environment from snowballing into a hellish MAN-MADE GLOBAL WARMING (which is real, yes), surviving EARTHQUAKE, TSUNAMI, TYPHOON, DROUGHT, FLOOD and various subtlety with Biodiversity, Invasive Species and Flora...
...if the above is more costly than needed for self-contained city with entirely controlled weather and food supply, then those are cheaper.
Today we don't have the technology to build Self-Sustaining metropolis and the common folk gang-up on you if you dared take away their luxury to lay waste to the planet.
But in the future, if you can get(force) people to live in (working) self-sustaining colony, which they'll make sure to keep inhabitable. It could be easily be cheaper than keeping them on the planet.
> What is a Earth-Like planet anyway ?
An obligatory 10m/s2 gravity field
99,99999999% mass we can't use
70% of surface landmass we can't use without terraforming the planet
Various set of complex Ecosystem, Weathers and tectonic-plate you can't control either because the Earth IS SO FRIGGING HUGE !!
By being smaller, even a O'neill Colony (which is luxurious by Hard SF standard) could make it much more manageable. (that's also why I see no point in terraforming planets or moons)
>"The world is so fucked, there are places right now where everything is shit and no one has any food and everyone is dying its so horrible" *goes to fancy party with a feast and everything* "Man I sure do hate this resource shortage"
>"The world is so fucked, there are places right now where everything is shit and no one has any food and everyone is dying its so horrible" *goes to fancy party with a feast and everything* "Man I sure do hate this resource shortage"
Oh so just like real life?
It has always been pretty clear from expanded material that it was an ideological, not pragmatic decision to ship people into space. Sure the original series just talks about overpopulation. But even really old shit talks about forced migration and how Earth is basically rich people + the people they need to keep their cities running + people in the boonies.
1. World becomes overpopulated to a dangerous extent
2. The cost of building a space colony is cheaper than trying to house/feed an amount of people on the crowded Earth.
3. Space colonies will also produce valuable resources. Earth will have drastically reduced pollution.
4. Rich politicians move common poor people to colonies which are basically tubed work camps for Earth.
5. Receive OYW
For starters: Socialism/=Marxism
Socialism just means that government controls means of production.
With that said, I highly doubt the space colonies were built by any sort of corporate entity. If that were the case, then the Colonies would be owned and managed by the corporation, aka Capitalism. But we know that the Federation were the ones controlling the colonies, they were the ones the Zeons wanted to BREAK AWAY from, not any corporation.
When you run out of arable land to produce the need quantity of food and have to transform large sectors of arid land.
When you run out of livable land, and the cities are full of people causing rampant pollution and disease.
When the waste and pollution is so much that it becomes unbearably expensive to process, regulate and safely dispose of it.
When all of the effects of overpopulation are decimating the planet and wreaking havoc on the the climate causing massive natural disasters.
When space travel has gotten cheap enough to go commercial and people have the technology to spend more and more time in space.
>argument boils down to space colonization = unrealisitc
Colonies being "expensive" is pointless because space colonies will not use any earth resources to build, unlike building closed systems on earth that would still require using earth resources, just much more efficiently. It's questionable whether a completely closed system is even achievable. It wouldn't matter for space colonies because they can keep getting new resources from mining asteroids and building solar panels. The colonization program is a government program with the purpose of actually preserving the Earth, not making it marginally habitable by building enclosed acrologies in an ecological wasteland. The only one hurdle they need overcome is moving the mass of people into at least LEO.
>because space colonies will not use any earth resources to build
And? They're still going to use resources which are more difficult to obtain and process than resource from earth.
To be dair, Deikun got a lot more radical in his later years. He wasn't Zabi levels of evil, but he still wanted a war with the Federation (though it was probably on the level of Side 3's uprising in the Origin rather than any sort of outright space conflict.)
The issue in UC is that isn't that everybody in space or earth is poor, the issue is that if your not a politician or a wealthy fuck, the Federation literally does not care about you or your population's needs, and oftentimes just taxes the fuck out of everybody without bothering to look into issues that may arise. That's one thing for Earth territories; not much that can be done there, but for colonies, it's a fucking pain in the ass, especially for the more downtrodden and neglected colonies like Sweetwater.
The Federation isn't necessarily evil, just extremely stagnant, useless, ineffective outside of all-out war, and riddled with corruption. Their saving grace is that they do have a pretty competent military with (mostly) upstanding soldiers. Unfortunately, the government's retardation oftentimes prevents them from utilizing it effectively when necessary.
>which are more difficult to obtain and process
We are already mining He-3 from jupiter by that time in the setting. How will mining asteriods for minerals be more difficult to obtain and process?
I'm really tired of all this pointless bickering. Here's the solution: everyone, go read O'Neill's "The High Frontier".
Spacenoids didn't buy sick ass orbital bachelor pads man. They are the working class exiled into space so that the aristocracy could keep enjoying the few patches of Earth still worth a damn. There was also big time overpopulation on earth. The Federation let Haman flatten Dublin because it was convenient population control. People in space were earthnoids that got the boot to go work on some shitty colony with artificial weather and shit and have all their crap taken from them. Taxation without representation etc.
this guy knows
>You could have taken the 100 trillion dollars it would have taken to build and fill the multiple self contained long term space colonies and just... use those resources to build better infrastructure on earth.
The one percent could simply pay the taxes they owe, and it would solve so many of our social and infrastructure problems. But they don't want gubbament taking what is theirs, also FUCK POOR PEOPLE they are sucking on the teat, etc, etc. Never underestimate what the people who have will do to keep it out of the hands of those they have not.
>The one percent could simply pay the taxes they owe, and it would solve so many of our social and infrastructure problems
>the Federation literally does not care about you or your population's needs,
Which is precisely why the federation is the best faction to be apart of. Fuck you bleeding heart space-liberals and AEUG greenpeace hippies!
I don't think you understood the reason for AEUG's existence. It was a group formed within the Earth Federation to resist the ever-increasing power base of the Titans, it had no goals beyond that.
They are though. If you vote pro-status quo good news you get to stay and keep voting.
>I always thought the "only elites live on earth" thing was just Zeek propaganda.
They don't even claim that, only that they took over the Earth Federation. Liberating the oppressed peoples of Earth is a perfectly decent excuse to invade for them too.
>the government's retardation oftentimes prevents them from utilizing it effectively when necessary.
This would explain a lot of the more glaring plot holes regarding missing shit (Zeon remnants post-OYW) and intelligence and Zeon being reasonably successful (for a franchise centered around the gundams) at their gundam-fucking special ops.
> You don't believe in good old fashioned dick waving do you?
Well, Terraforming planet will be more of a HOBBIES once we live as digitized brain(s) in a Matrioshka brain built within a Dyson's sphere.
But when talking of efficiently colonizing space, terraforming is the equivalent of reproducing Dubaï at the center of the Arctic ...on another planet.