Is there something about being a minority and being pro zeon? i feel like every gundam fan i meet who is Hispanic, black or Asian love Zeon. While white fans love the Feds. Does the preference have to do something with cultural background? btw i am a nonwhite who is prozeon.
I...uh...never really ever encountered this. I just like Zeon because I want to be a space not-Nazi-with-the-gilt-uniform and because their mook suits are better than never-ending GMs. I'm Asian, but I was raised in the US.
I liked UC mainly for gunpla; the shows are completely hit or miss, so it's no question why I prefer Zeon.
You build like two gundams and a single GM and you're bored. Whereas you can have infinite Zaku variations that are still fun to build and play with.
Ideologically, both the Federation and Zeon as shit, honestly. The Federation gets the win overall because the Zeons were outwardly evil, but the Federation really is honestly corrupt as all get-out.
So you go with what is honestly different, which is their MS.
back in the VHS days one of the learned elders of robot cartoons near me was a massive black guy who was all about Char, Quattro, Zeon, and the aryan guys from LoGH.
>and the aryan guys from LoGH.
But they're the interesting ones. The only interesting people on the Alliance side is Yang, Poplan, and the Rosenritter guy. Julien comes later, but only after Yang bites it.
Whereas the entire Empire side is charismatic, idiotic and brilliant a the same time, and in many ways fulfilling of space opera tragedy, comedy, and adventure.
>Ideologically, both the Federation and Zeon as shit, honestly. The Federation gets the win overall because the Zeons were outwardly evil, but the Federation really is honestly corrupt as all get-out.
One side murdered half of the entire human race, including completely obliterating an entire Side of their fellow Spacenoids and gassing colonies at two others. The other did not.
>aryan guys from LoGH.
They were Aryan white-supremacists as a plot/setting device. They could have been African Eskimo albinos and if they were still as good characters as they were they still would have taken the entire show the way they did.
The former is evil.
The latter is lazy and corrupt.
It's like the difference between Hitler killing X million people out of malice, whereas Mao and Stalin kill 5X people out of corruption and stupidity but don't get nearly as much shit for it because it took longer for them to do so and that it wasn't out of some sort of personal grudge beyond poor people being poor at the wrong place and time.
I'm not _that_ into logh so I forgot Kaiser Von Remhartderstsan or whoever's name. I brought up the aryan stuff because he would grouse about his inability to cosplay as svelte blonde white guys.
>his inability to cosplay as svelte blonde white guys.
In the VHS days, it's a pity he didn't have enough of the internet to realize that it's common to not be able to properly cosplay any goddamn character in anime unless you're quite fit/thin, regardless of how they look.
>my first (and only) anime con, I saw the most fucktastically awesome black guy with dreads cosplaying Father Anderson from Hellsing, and was honestly cooler looking than the canon one
Except the Federation killed 0.0005X people.
Every government in human history has been to some degree corrupt. Zeon does not get to stand on equal moral ground because of corruption or laziness in the Federation.
Like Zeon because the suits are cool, because the characters are entertaining, because it's fun to yell Sieg Zeon. Don't pretend morality has anything to do with it.
>Except the Federation killed 0.0005X people.
If you could source that number, I'd believe you. Most materials post-OYW more or less state that the corruption of the Federation was a real threat to stability, much less happiness, of humanity.
Zeon movements and anti-Federation movements post-OYW are born out of this and artificially extend the fighting out until only Tomino knows when (because the Federation sucks enough that people keep on joining that stupid anti-Federation banner, which results in further wars, which leads to more deaths, and the de jure continuation of the Federation as an anti-anti-Federation rallying point, continuing the corruption, and so on).
Conversely, the Federation doesn't get to be called "good" simply because it isn't malicious. At least not in the overall scheme of UC.
And I wouldn't join Zeon simply because they're somehow "in the right" in any consideration beyond Laplace's McGuffin. I'm saying that overall both them and the Federation are more or less a wash, so choose the one you like.
>Except the Federation killed 0.0005X people.
Maybe purposefully. The industrialized nations of the world kill how many people every day and leave them in a state of poverty just out of neglect to feed their own quality of living with cheap labor?
I mean, from a technical standpoint, each of us here on the internet have like 20-30 "slaves" being paid in money meagre enough for survival (if that) just for our normal day-to-day.
The Federation is a lot like that only extending out into space with several billion more humans and much much richer top echelons in the wealth divide than anyone now can imagine.
The Federation literally could not kill as many people as Zeon because there were not that many human beings left to kill. When you have killed over half of all human beings in the universe, your opponent by definition cannot match your killcount.
Does it make it any better that the remainder of people died out of simple neglect and stupid post-OYW conflicts that could have been avoided by less corruption?
Hindsight is always 20/20, but the Federation isn't clean or even neutral good. It simply "is." It exists for itself and its own perpetuation, not so much the peace and stability of humanity.
Zeon is evil, Federation is dicks. Both are technically quite horrendous and you wouldn't want to live under either.
>When you have killed over half of all human beings in the universe
Only for a given point and time. The Federation had like another good couple decades of people to kill in the UC before it dissolves and who knows when another UC chapter will be added that raises the kill count? Zeon has to end as an entity somewhere after Char but that doesn't mean that anti-Federation movements do.
Nothing on screen has shown the Federation to be particularly evil or horrendous, at most they're gross incompetent and bureaucratic. Well actually at their worst is when they have the Titans, who's innocents killed county is substantially lower than Zeon's and less damaging to the population of the Earth sphere.
Hispanic ain't a race. It isn't different enough from Caucasian the way asian or african is. It's just a bunch of spaniards that proliferated and mixed with what few natives they left alive.
If you're going to recognize them as a distinct branch that's not white, you have to do the same for every distinctive European branch. Kind like the Pluto thing - you want it to be a planet again? Say hello to Planet Ceres.
The whole point of Gihren's speech is that he's capitalizing on his own brother's death for propaganda. Tomino portrays fighting for ideals as inherently dangerous or even outright wrong, that it's easy for people who are swayed by beautiful words to chant and be swept up in mob mentality and be controlled by monsters like Gihren. When you claim that an ideal is inherently good no matter what, any action no matter how monstrous becomes justified in pursuit of it.
It comes down to the fact that white people are basically law-abiding and prefer that civilization be as stable as possible while non-whites tend to see the law as oppressive and prefer to imagine themselves upending that law and establishing their own sense of order.
Sadly, like a lot things Tomino meant to do with Zeon (like how Zeon having elements of Imperial Japan and being the bad guys is meant to be a critique of Imperial Japan) it went completely over the heads of the fans. Which is why you get Gihren's speech being played up unironically by even the likes of Gackt, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaCpbwkNR0w.
Minorities have a thing for autocratic regimes and strong leaders (like Zeon), which is why 99% of their countries are like that.
Whites have a thing for democracy and rule of law(like the Federation), which is why 99% of their countries are like that.
Why is the kill count the defining feature here ? Rather than goals, general character, etc ?
I tend to dislike the feddies because they come off as really crude and sloppy. We don't really see much of Zeon soldiers acting like drunken fools or forcefully groping civilian girls like we do with the Fed grunts. I can't think of very many Zeon soldier equivalents to Monsha, the Titan soldiers who groped Beltorchika, or those soldiers who crashed in Amuro's old house and beat up the apple selling woman. I mean shit, when Glemmy kidnapped Judau's little sister he was buying her dresses and giving her music lessons.
It doesn't excuse Zeon's mass destruction, and there are a few counter examples. But in general your average Zeon solider or commander tends to come off as better than your average Fed soldier or commander.
Because when you kill half of all living people in the world then everything else about you becomes irrelevant.
Zeon's soldiers are amiable, friendly people. They are also part of an organization that has massacred the human race on a scale not seen since the likes of Genghis Khan. They have used nerve gas to mass-murder the very Spacenoids they claim to be the light of hope for and used their homes as kinetic bombs to devastate the Earth they claim to want to protect from being damaged by humanity. The average Zeon soldier either willfully ignores these actions or justifies it by claiming it's for the sake of their ideals. There is no possible way for them to be ignorant of the colony drop and what that entailed.
How friendly you are is irrelevant when your actions are in support of such utter destruction.
>sloppy lecherous drunk
It's called discipline breakdown. In 0079 Feddies was losing ground, no wonder some territories went like that. Monsha? That's just normal mischief in him. Even his comrade looked down upon his vice but hey, his still a comrade in arms.
I'm sure the Federation government were glad that zeon unburdened them of less mouths to feed. I prefer the zealous passion and idealism of zeon to the apathy and corruption of the Federation. At least Zeon wants to better lives for their own people.
i feel that is what it is. I feel like I'd rather have a powerful "benevolent" autocrat than a bunch of corrupt senators who sell their soul to the highest bidder. but i also realize the massive danger the first power structure is.
There are a lot of Pro Zeon Zum Deikun followers among the spacenoids and Zeon wasn't so centralized (at the beginning) that one couldn't ally with the Zabi regime in good conscious.
As shitty as the Zabis are, it's still a lot of poor spacenoids who view the (justifiably) oppressive Federation as the bad guys. From the viewer's side it makes it seem like everyone is shit, and they are, but to your average spacenoid Zeon is still the good guys.
I mean, look at America. We nuked a whole ass country, yet people lived (and live) here in moral comfort over that and many other war atrocities we've committed
reparations for all those downed colonies, not cheap. also Anaheim and other companies are the ones who keep fueling zeonic and spacenoid (Aeug) terrorism post oyw so they can sell new gundams to the feds
Because economical system of Principality was more like that of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Oligopoly instead of state monopoly.
And don't forget that Zabi family is the example of "national bourgeoisie" in power.
that's got nothing to do with it, the 20 years is pre-war, not post-war
technically wasn't side 3 just like any other well-off side? they didn't have any problems feeding people and keeping the electricity on until zabis started weapons development programs and the war started
Side 3 had big problems with lack of support from other colonies (exept for Side 6 acting as Space Switzerland/Sweden) and problems with resource gathering. The Jupiter Fleet, city of Granada and few mining colonies like Axis weren't enough to supply both civilians and military supply program.
But if Principality would fund only social programs, they wouldn't be able to defend themselves - armored cars can't do shit against tanks and Guntanks, even if they are fitted with TOWs.
Because the military potential of Republic of Zeon was crushed. All the scientists went to EF companies and services (Anaheim Electronics, Titans newtype research program) or fled to the Axis, same goes with army specialists. The companies that had the support of the Government were dissolved and became part of Anaheim Electronics.
He's talking about prewar Zeon. The Federation never made a military move against Zeon, they just said "okay, you want to be independent, go off and be independent by yourself". Zeon struck without provocation.
The independence was declared only by Zabis, before that Side 3 just had the great autonomy rights. And the garrison was wiped out by the independence movement. That's so if we're going with The Origin story.
Zeon is like a kid who walks out of his parents' house, then gets mad when they don't keep sending him money and food, so he crashes his car into their house.
>mobile suits aren't given development
>mankind goes into space and becomes a galaxy-spanning civilization
>mobile suits are given development
>mankind eventually descends into cannibalism
So what you're saying is that Gundam really was a mistake.
You're not wrong. I'm white and I'm pro-Titan.
>Feddies are morally justified
>Feddies took advantage of millions of people by forcing them from Earth to live in space puppet governments with less amounts of rights, stability and personal well being being treated as slaves rather than citizens
>A majority supports this and doesn't believe that the spacenoids after about 50 years living in these poor conditions were justified to fight the Federation because muh colony drops
>The ends justify the means... but only for the Feddies.
This thread in a nutshell.
White Zeon-supporter right here.
Screw feddie bastar double-morals.
That still doesn't make them slaves or even serfs by any stretch of the imagination. No one considers citizens of Guam and Puerto Rico slaves and they are basically in the same situation.
From UC or the thread?
There's supposed to be an "Even though they're treated as-... *-=-*", reffering to the Shanghai colony in ZZ and other colonies before UC0096. The initial goal of space travel was only to flush out unwanted citizens and leech of off them from the safety of Earth. Having the spacenoids pay taxes and work for Earth, in order to keep up its own economy whilst ignoring the different Side's own economy's.
Every Zeon or anti-Feddie force (or at least almost everyone) has been permitted to exist after UC0079 because they've motivated the spacenoids, only for the federation to crush those dreams of liberation with an iron grip, making sure that absolute obedience is given to them.
It's absolutely dreadful. Can't believe anyone on this board would support the Feddies.
Sorry mate for the confusion, I'll try to be more clear in my green-texting next time :)
>While white fans love the Feds. Does the preference have to do something with cultural background?
>authoritarian state with nazi german symbolism
I wonder which one /pol/ prefers.
It's not like they had access to Gundarium to build Gundam Zakus.
Though it makes me question where Axis was getting the specific(?) titanium to refine into Gundarium a/b/y later when they live off somewhere far off in the solar system for a lot of their primary research.
It got stolen because Jamitov and co, wanted the Delaz Fleet to steal it.
'Superior Spacenoid intelligence', lel. Yet they couldn't see that they were being played as patsies and tools the entire time. Guess Earthnoids got them beat in the intelligence part after all.
Dumb zeeks are dumb.
>white fans love the Feds
Federation can eat shit.
Repeat: Federation can eat shit.
>superior Spacenoid infiltration
It got stolen because the Feds are fucking incompetent.
"Let's load a live nuke onto this robot for the exercise tomorrow, and leave it sitting overnight in a hangar with not only unlocked but OPEN doors on a base with exactly one barbed wire fence and Ralph The Guard at the main gate.
WHAT COULD GO WRONG?
I'm ethnic and I like the Feddies more. Zeon has this very romantic appeal. Rebels are always cool. The AUEG is so well liked because they have that rebel aspect down with the relative moral high ground of the federation.
>Repeat: Federation can eat shit.
Sieg Zeon brother
>we nuked a whole country
Second option was an invasion by the US and Soviet Union. If people think they really would have been better off as Germany 2: Electric Rapealoo and have commie ideals infest half the country for decades (not to mention the death tolls for the US and Japan would have been much higher) then keep demonizing America. If the Japanese could have let go of their honor and surrendered unconditionally before we had to drop the bombs instead of trying to keep their emperor on the throne then we wouldn't be having this discussion. The Japanese brought themselves into a war they knew they could not win. That is the result.
Stalin didn't killed people out of corruption and stupidity. He took supplies from his opponents (threat), and they starved to death. Millions of them? Statistics. He took competent commanders (threat) from his soldiers, and they walked into grinder. Millions of them? War effort. He was paranoid sociopath with unlimited power.
Haven't you heard about the New Afrikan, Comrade? We will unite with our brown and black brothers and sisters from the 1st and 3rd world to overthrow the oppressive white supremacist imperialist unit3d $$$naKKKe$$$ of ameriKKKa
Hey /m/, I drew this. I hope you enjoy it.
I'm pretty sure 90% of the gundam fan i met locally is a zeonfag, nearly everyone and their mother have a zaku or sinanju in their collection. GMs are the most popular shelfwarmers.
I'm a feddiefag
>Every Zeon or anti-Feddie force (or at least almost everyone) has been permitted to exist after UC0079 because they've motivated the spacenoids, only for the federation to crush those dreams of liberation with an iron grip, making sure that absolute obedience is given to them.
ITT: things that never happened. pretty much every post-OYW Zeonic/anti Fed movement was partially supported by the Federation itself for its own gains and gave many of them like Axis Zeon and Sweetwater Zeon a great deal of political autonomy and legitimacy for a terrorist group.
That's... what I said though. What you described is a rephrasing of my words, excluding the outcome of every such movement. As I said, they were permitted to exist as a light of hope for the spacenoids, being slightly monitored by the Federation to make sure absolute chaos didn't erupt. It's a vile act that they've commited time and time again at the cost of the Spacenoids lives and autonomy, punishing them for not wanting to be punished time and time again after UC0079.
Feddie scum like you sicken me.
When makes you think that, you won't be amongst the half of the mankind, half of the entire human population, that lost their lives thanks to Zeon warmongers.
Zeon a shit
>each of us here on the internet have like 20-30 "slaves
Global Internet usage is it at 40%, the number of people living in 'extreme poverty' (according to the world bank, which defines it as $1.25/day or less) is 20%.
No one likes the feds, regardless of race.
There is no crime in fiction greater than being boring, and the federation is boring as hell.
People tend to favor mass murdering factions with interesting characters or designs over bland good guys, Star Wars and Gundam are obvious enough exambles.
Up to your old tricks Goldstien?
We've always been at war with Eurasia.
>Live in colony, ruled by Earth elites, with no real voice in government
>Dead on account of Zeeks gassing colony (evacuations too hard lol) to drop it on planet they claim to want to protect.
Have no doubt, the Earth Federation government is a bunch of corrupt, oppressive assholes. Zekes might be nice, but they're also hypocritical genocidal maniacs.
Living under the Feddies ain't ideal, but at least you're still living.
Adding to this - the Gattie party, founders of the Zanscare Empire WERE ELECTED BY SPACENOIDS.
It's like the moment the Feds stop caring spacenoids immediately try to kill everyone again.
They are literally the rebels of the UC. Everyone loves rebels more than established organizations.
Zeon is more popular than the Federation on average due to their varied suit designs and rebellion nature.
It has nothing to do with race. Anyone who thinks so should probably removes themselves from the
>watch Side 3 declaring autonomy, so that lunatic Deikun can have his silly speeches in peace
>after his suspicious death they declare themselves independent, purge all his followers, and wage war against the Federation, throwing space colonies at Earth, and killing half of the entire human race, mostly fellow spacenoids, in the process
>when you think it's finally over, son of that silly geezer returns from the exile, no saner than his daddy, consolidate the remnants and throw more things at Earth, but is ultimately defeated, once again
>but it's not over yet, because few years later some rich dude uses his wealth to build private army, and take over few colonies from the Side 4 by force, to establish empire there, and wage a war against the Federation, just to be defeated by one of his own relatives throwing his new empire into the civil war
>after all these years, federation itself wore out, of course some space commies use that to their advantage, take over the Side 2 and in attempt to actually purge the entire human race, wage war to the Federation, and invade the Earth itself
>spacenoids fighting for their freedoms
>accomplished nothing except strengthening the earth supremacist faction in the Federation
>actually ended up weakening Zeon in the long run since when Axis returns to the Earth Sphere, they're so low on manpower that they have to take in ex-Titans
I've never seen anyone so proud about shooting themselves in the foot before.
Why are you Delaz Fleet assholes too stupid to realize you're nothing more than patsies and tools?
>all these zeek kiddies who blindly follow their corrupt leaders
FTFY. Why do Zeekfags always harp on about 'Feddie corruption' yet ignore that Zeon is just as corrupt, if not moreso? This is a nation literally founded on nepotism and cronyism. They have commanders that screw over fellow officers by denying them supplies and all but condemn good, loyal soldiers to certain death all because their Zabi patron doesn't like the other officer's Zabi patron. If that isn't fucking corruption, then what is?
>Beat that asshole
I'm not about to knock Gato getting revenge for the dead of Solomon, and GP02 is one of my favorite Gundam designs.
I'm just saying the Feddies he stole it from were massively fucking stupid, that's all.
Didn't it royally fuck over half of the EFSF fleet?
>earth supremacist faction in the Federation
That was the means to an end. Jamitov wanted those intolerant supremacists to start a war to despoil the earth's environment and force everyone to move into space. He was literally sending them to die for their enemy's objective. This is explained by Scirocco in Zeta.
Blasian feddie here
>implying I didn't join for benefits and my sweet Jegan
>Implying I wouldn't leave after 10 years to join a mercenary group and travel from earth to jupiter
Being tied down to one side is too troublesome
>There is no crime in fiction greater than being boring, and the federation is boring as hell.
This is the most insightful comment in the thread. With that being said, I love the Federation because it's boring. The Zeon outfits and suits look tacky. You guys live in the space age, why draw off nineteenth-century European nobility for your design aesthetic?
There's a saying, "If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything." I think it's the inverse. If you stand for something, that's when you'll fall. The bland, practical, modern look of the Federation reflects its sobriety, its realpolitik.
I don't think anyone is going to argue that Stalin wasn't a power-hungry dictator who didn't value human life, but I think that anon was referring to stuff like Lysenkoism, where the country's agricultural policies were based off a pseudoscience. I've never heard that the Soviet leaders supported Lysenkoism out of malice. I heard that they supported it because they mistakenly believed it was solid science, and because it gelled with communist values, similar to how a Judeo-Christian might like the Big Bang theory or how a right-libertarian might like Darwinism.
>The initial goal of space travel was only to flush out unwanted citizens and leech of off them from the safety of Earth.
You're leaving out the part where Earth was overpopulated. Sure, it would've been better if the Federation could've found a fairer way to decide who must emigrate, but the poorer people are always going to get screwed, until we become "true Newtypes," and that might not be till hundreds of thousands of years from now. You have to learn to accept a little corruption in otherwise stable governments. If you can't accept it, you'll be more likely to listen to demagogues. It's the same in real life.
I'm a guilt-free white who values all individuals regardless of descent.
I think everyone trys to assign a real lfe equivilant to the both and chooses from there, which leads to bias. Ive seen people claim the Feds are suppose to be USA, Britain, Allies, Soviet Russia, and USA again with Zeon being Nazis, USA, Axis, Nazis again, and Japan (respectively). Like I'm a total /pol/lack and I try superhard to make the Feddies seem like socialist globalists and the Principalities to be a nationalistic group of spacenoids going to war with those who rather stagant in oldtype-ness than strive for greatness and evolve. Idk of others see it that way, but that lets me justify it. In reality I just really like amphibious mobile suits.
I'm black and I've always been behind the Federation. It's a pretty easy choice: Zeon is Euro-styled white dudes who murdered half the human population. The Federation has... the Titans, I guess? America was shit to black people but not too many of us were running to join Hitler.
I don't even understand the love for individual Zeon pilots. Bernie Mac's pretty much the only one I ever empathised with.
The Federation isn't even boring. The Federation is a hotbed of corporate political jockeying, ideological in-fighting between the rich and the well-meaning, etc. Go through the supplementary material and you can see a very interesting evolution from the Cold War-era realities that the writers who made Gundam were living in, to the speculative society they were writing about. I've heard someone say that Treize is the true protagonist of Wing for anyone over the age of 15, and I say the same thing about Feddies and UC. Zeon are cartoon villains, while the Federation is a complex society trying hard not to eat itself. Like real life. So it's more interesting.
The saddest bunch were the neo-neo-neo-terrorists that infiltrated the Earth, waited there for years, made new career, families, then appeared Full Faggot, and they threw everything they had away, to kill as many feddies as possible, FOR ZEON (which, by then, was independent republic, oppressed by no one, and without genocidal lunatics in charge)!
>Solar ray failed against colony drop
>Take one last pot shot with it at AMX-002
>While it's engaged with Gundam Unit 03
>While the EFSF fleet vanguard is in the path of the solar ray
Why are you such a racist, OP? You trying to divide the world into by their ethnicity? Really???
Keep your brand of "discussion" in your >>>/pol/ containment board.
>The average Zeon soldier either willfully ignores these actions or justifies it by claiming it's for the sake of their ideals.
The average Zeon Soldier likely didn't even know about it. The rest that were there are either Cima's marines and hate Zeon after the fact, or they were at one of the other sides and saw it as attacking the Federation's allies and their garrisons (which is technically true, as Origin mentions.)
The issue is the One Week Battle doesn't have much coverage by any source unless it's to depict the fleet battle away from the colonies or the OP of Mobile Suit Gundam, which is pretty vague as to how much destruction is actually happening. Even then, they barely show the destruction after the fact aside from the occasional shoal zone, and there's the weirdness of said Sides having several or more very much intact colony cylinders in later series with little signs of destruction or even post-war construction, meaning the majority of the colonies cylinders were left intact? Or were only partially damaged? Gundam lore never seems to have a consistent answer to this question. Side 4, for example, is one of the known shoal zones, but it's mentioned that Side 4 was moved to Lagrange point 1 during 0084, so unless they built several dozen O'Neil cylinders over the course of three years, Side 4 wasn't quite as obliterated as some sources mention. Then there's shit like Side 1's Shangri La being the first colony ever built and perfectly intact (albeit a mess.) The only Side that we know for sure got absolutely obliterated was Side 5, and then, there's Industrial 7 still floating around there.
The way I see it, it's likely that the only colonies that actually got destroyed were the ones containing Federation garrisons. It's about the only way I can rectify the lore's inconsistency on this matter.
>Zeon is like a kid who walks out of his parents' house, then gets mad when they don't keep sending him money and food, so he crashes his car into their house.
They're more like a neglected child from a rich family that decides to run away in hopes of finding better pastures, but finds that everyone else is owned by the rich family and said family is giving them financial benefits as long as they refuse to provide for the child or give him a job to provide for himself, so the child develops a batshit superiority complex, procures a bunch of guns and ordinance, and kills those people and their families and goes after his own.
>Side 4, for example, is one of the known shoal zones, but it's mentioned that Side 4 was moved to Lagrange point 1 during 0084, so unless they built several dozen O'Neil cylinders over the course of three years, Side 4 wasn't quite as obliterated as some sources mention.
I've heard a lot of different explanations on what the "moving Sides" really mean. Does it mean the physical colonies were moved? Does it mean the populations and governments were moved? Or is it just a re-designation, a renaming, or maybe a moving of governments without the entire populations moving?
My understanding is that Side 5, Loum, was completely destroyed in 0079. At the time it was in L1, between the Earth and the moon. One of the colonies which half-survived was Texas. Years later, Side 5 became Side 4—or, Side 5 was moved from L1 to L4, and Side 4 was moved from L5 to L1. Either way, the shoal zone from the Battle of Loum wasn't cleaned up, and that's why Side 4 is "one of the known shoal zones" like you said. Wait, in what series was Side 4 shown to have a shoal zone? I remember seeing lots of ruins at the end of F91, but I can't remember how recent those were supposed to be.
Feel free to correct me, I'm not confident in any of this. It might be the case that the source material just doesn't have consistency, and the "moving Sides" thing is a fan explanation.
If it was meant to be compatible with new UC, it wouldn't retcon in the existence of so many new models in the first place which didn't exist in UC and only existed in the Origin manga. Besides, the Origin's early type Guntank has the same proportions as the Origin's RX-75 Guntank, not the proper UC RX-75-4 Guntank.
In proper UC as you call it, there never were mass production guntanks 20 years before the start of the OYW, the first guntank design itself was created as part of project V a few years before the start of the OYW. MSV-R follows proper UC:
>Federation Forces begin research and development of heavy armored weapons for anti-mobile suit combat. This project eventually leads to the RTX-44 and the Guntank series.
In 0083, they were moving colony cylinders around. In these more or less official English maps, we are told that the designations changed as well.
No one said it wasn't the logical thing to do but you can't argue it wasn't immoral. It saved the lives of our own people, but that doesn't make it a moral choice. It was a shitty choice either way and we chose the one that had the least cost for us.
Well of course one benevolent dictator is a better option than a corrupt republic. But by the same token, a corrupt republic is still better than a corrupt dictator.
The quality of life in a dictatorship depends entirely on the dictator. The quality of life in a republic depends on a lot more things.
Even setting aside that the conditions that Japan were "forced to go into the war" because of were caused by Japan being a bunch of crazy war hawks, which made a bunch of countries (like the USA) level an embargo against them, which- oh holy shit that's a lot more parallel than I initially realized.
I don't think they'd accept me, they tend to people who are either too old or too young for combat.
>Didn't it royally fuck over half of the EFSF fleet?
The half that would have opposed the Titans, yes, but the attack destroyed a lot of OYW relics that were already behind the times by 0083 and would have gotten in the way anyway.
>If it was meant to be compatible with new UC, it wouldn't retcon in the existence of so many new models in the first place which didn't exist in UC and only existed in the Origin manga.
Keep in mind this is Gundam you are talking about. Retconning in MS designs that have no right existing in the context of the established setting prior to it's debut in an OVA is not exactly a foreign concept (just look at 08th MS Team.) Retconning the deployment dates of various MS isn't exactly new either, mostly because the only things that actually give concrete dates are various semi-official sources that often conflict with each other anyway.
Case in point, that Guntank exerpt from MSV-R, or the Zaku II High Mobility types, which had a wildly fluctuating deployment schedule to begin with depending on the source.
>Besides, the Origin's early type Guntank has the same proportions as the Origin's RX-75 Guntank, not the proper UC RX-75-4 Guntank.
They aren't the same, actually, but it IS based on the RX-75's appearance from the Origin manga, so you're half right.
MSV-R isn't animated and it'd kind of retarded anyway.
>Those Federation ships are using the colonies as shields! The cowards! We're TOTALLY not responsible for the destruction of the Sides!
>How dare they use those colonies we're planning to attach nuclear engines to as shields
That's why the MSV Ridden manga is better. Everyone is openly corrupted and an asshat. Plus cool MSV and MSV hybrids.
say that to my face, zeek scum.
i dare you, double dare you.
They wanted freedom from the federation to do their own thing, it wasn't about nationalism you retard. It was more about spacenoids paving their way through space as the next step in the evolution of the human race
>paying attention to anything other than their circlejerk
It was until the zabis took over. By the time the show rolls around they're on a fast track to nationalism. I mean just look at how easily Gihren whips them all up into a fervor. Hell his dad he starts relating to him as Hitler towards the end.
He compared Ghiren's actions to Hitler. He asked him if he was familiar with Hitler after Ghiren presented his plan to kill half the population of earth while leaving the strong alive. It was more of a plan to force humanity to move into space, similiar to what Char was doing in CCA rather than pure nationalism
Zeon's goals for earth was to have the rest of humanity leave the planet and live in space in order to achieve their next stage of evolution like the spacenoids. Keep in mind that Earth during this time was undergoing extreme climate change, in MSGO north africa was engulfed by the sahara and became inhospitable.
It was more about showing humans on earth that Spacenoids were the next stage of evolution and that humanity was now trailing behind them, not about nationalistic Zeon soldiers killing humans just for the sake of Zeon. If that was the case then they wouldn't have had regular Human civillians/Feddie spies working for them
>white fans love the Feds
Russian guy here. I know only two persons, who watch UC and was cheering for feds. All other dozen of my UC friends support Zeon, as myself.
Federation can eat shit.
I repeat: Federation can eat shit.
>Why is the kill count the defining feature here ? Rather than goals, general character, etc ?
Because morally and practically, kill count is much more important. IRL, who would most people consider worse: A mass murderer who was a snappy dresser or a drunken hobo who's otherwise harmless? Most would choose to imprison or execute the murderer no matter how cool he looked, and treat the hobo more leniently no matter how drunk or sloppy he was.
>after Ghiren presented his plan to kill half the population of earth while leaving the strong alive.
I still find it interesting how Tomino shifted this in the novel so that Gihren treated the war itself as the culling mechanism to eliminate the weak.
Then again, that take was also different since he was true believer enough in his own ethos at that point that he figured 'if the war takes me out, hey, so be it. That's nature's way, baby.'
>i feel like every gundam fan i meet who is Hispanic, black or Asian love Zeon
>Russian guy here. I know only two persons, who watch UC and was cheering for feds. All other dozen of my UC friends support Zeon, as myself.
>Federation can eat shit.
>I repeat: Federation can eat shit.
Black BR here. EFSF is the real deal. Space Hitler and zeeks can fuck their asses with a heat hawk.
If you bothered to pay attention to what I was talking about, you'd see my source was talking about the Johnny Ridden MSV-R story. Which follows proper UC and isn't a hamfisted Zeon knobslobbing story that invents Federation atrocities while depicting Operation British as being a heroic operation that they don't even bother to show the events of because they know it accidentally hitting Sydney was bad, much less aiming it at Jaburo.
>You don't understand nationalism much do you?
>not knowing that's their most recent buzzword
You're better off teaching a gorilla physics
>Tomino portrays fighting for ideals as inherently dangerous
I don't think it's that simplistic. Otherwise he wouldn't have CCA to play up the humanist theme. CCA Char is pretty much that and he disguised his misanthropy as revolutionary ideasl to appeal to the angry masses when all he wanted was to lash out and punish people. Amuro on the other hand was literally sacrificing himself for his "ideal" but one not of ideology but a sort of intrinsic humanism, like an infant just wanting to live. This is a common Tomino theme
>They wanted freedom from the federation to do their own thing, it wasn't about nationalism you retard
That's literally what nationalism means
>The slavs aren't nationalists they just want freedom from Austria to do their own thing
White and pro-Zeon.
When space colonization becomes viable there is no reason to continue living on Earth. Just because you can inhabit a planet and rape it of its resources doesn't mean you should.
The Zabis were warmongers. Real Zeonists align with the zum Deikun philosophy.
Going to agree. The only place I'd meet Zeon "fanboys" would be at a con. And invariably, they're all white.
Of course, I'm pretty sure where I live, the large majority of Gundam fans are white.
I'm Asian, and pro-Fed. Then again, so are the majority of white Gundam fans I know as well. There are certainly Zeon characters I enjoy and am fond of, but I assume the Federation will win any particular series, and am generally pleased at the outcome (becomes I'm right more often than not).
On a side note, I like Federation MS more than Zeon's offerings, though there are a few exceptions.
>huge outrage over nonexistent oppression
>rebelling against said oppressive system involves gassing their own
Gee I wonder
It's the "most" moral choice, sure. That doesn't make it immoral. It just makes it, at least from your own side the lesser of two evils. I have a really hard time believing that people think killing that many people is completely free of any guilt.
When every Zeon movement, including the one led by Deikun's own son, have followed the same methods, maybe there's a problem with Zeon. And because I know someone's going to say it:
No, you idiot, the comparison should be Scientologists.
The ideal of Zeon is consistent, see, it's always been about getting people off of earth and into the space colonies. All of the Zeon leaders and their plans have aimed to achieve this.
Not a single one of those characters, even Char, was just in their effort.
Char was a pretty shitty person in CC. Zeon zum Deikun wasn't advocating violence against earthlings, he was merely prompting people to see that they didn't need to rely on earth to live (i mean yeah he was more into than that, believing earth was sacred, but I'm taking a more objective take on his premise).
>Real Zeonists align with the zum Deikun philosophy.
Yeah, look how peaceful this guy is.
>Where in his philosophy does it say anything about master race?
His philosophy outright states that only Spacenoids can become Newtypes. There is an inherent message of Spacenoids superiority there that every subsequent Zeon movement has just taken the next step of that philosophy into Spacenoid supremacism.
>being apart of an thinly spread, incompetent, globalized government that requires you to pay taxes despite being able to sustain yourself on resources mined in space and defend yourself better than they can with said resources
>being apart of the "Earth" Federation when you yourself are not an earthling, and are not a gravity cuck
>being this much of a Feddie bootlicker
Amuro was an Earthnoid from Canada and first awakened as a Newtype after spending a significant amount of time back on Earth. Kamille was also born on Earth, I don't know about Judau.
More like the shift in demographics with an increase of SJWs and other groups like redditor moralfags shitting up /m/.
Because /m/ used to be Zeon country, /a/ still embodies that spirit because of their strict isolationism.
I had always figured it was because of the amount of time they had spent in space. I figure you don't have to originate from space but that you develop if you're in that environment.
If that was the case then Amuro wouldn't have awakened through fighting on Earth, he would have awakened in space. Usso also awakened before going to space at all.
The theory that Newtypes only originate from space is demonstrably false, or at least not especially true, and has been from the beginning. Deikun didn't even have proof that they could actually even exist, he got lucky that they somehow did.
Becoming something and becoming aware of something are not the same thing. One could, for example, get cancer from smoking but have no symptoms until after they have quit.
>Because /m/ used to be Zeon country
I dunno about that, Black_Knight's always been a Zeekfag, and also been around for ages, but loathed anyways.
I'm not sure how devoted /a/ is to MUH IDEALS either. They have whole threads devoted to /ai/-idle activities. Not exactly the good, productive little worker drones Zeon/the Third Reich/whatever anti-SJW/redditor/"moralfag" authoritarian state you like needs.
Is it confirmed that Uso was actually born on Earth? Because I remember him being a "illegal immigrant" on the planet. That would suggest that he was born, if not raised, on the moon or in the colonies.
There's also the possibility of his parents having latent newtypism themselves, or Uso acquiring newtypism during his time as a fetus like Marbet's kid. Now, if there's anyone who doesn't make sense as a newtype, it'd be Karloman.
>Deikun didn't even have proof that they could actually even exist, he got lucky that they somehow did.
The entire basis for Deikun's Newtype theory is a myth (that whole we only X% of our brain power nonsense). The fact that, AFAWK, he was neither a scientist nor doctor makes his making pronouncements on the future of human evolution at best irresponsible and at worst dishonest.
Well, Deikun didn't drop any large objects onto the Earth, but that was probably only because the Zabis rubbed him out before he got the chance.
The fun part is that he really possibly could have if we take the Origin's portrayal of him as a manic-depressive "philosopher" as true.
>"Zeonism" really could mean "let's drop giant shit on the earth to render it uninhabitable"
We don't know much about Deikun's Zeon/Munzo or pre-OYW (most likely on purpose because they weren't thinking that far ahead when they realized MSG needed a coherent backstory written in hindsight after it became big for little to no reason).
There COULD have been some sort of indication Newtypes were possible, or at least some sort of nebulously esper shit that was scientifically quantifiable. I mean, we have Zeon funding serious research into their Flanagan Institute simply to study Newtypes, so there has to evidence on a certain level in-setting to justify it.
so if Deikun had a chance, he will drop something to earth?
what stuff could he drop to earth then? still a same old colony drop, or other objects?
>still a same old colony drop, or other objects?
Why NOT use what works?
At the time he was still alive (at least going by Origin), nearby Loum/Texas Colony was actually sort of a failed shithole that was later bought and refurbished by Mirai's father.
That sounds like a nice, close-by thing to attach giant rockets to and shoot at the earth, really. Just shove the squatters out (and less work than gassing the entire place), fix rockets, and let loose.
>still a same old colony drop, or other objects?
I'm not sure where I read this, but I'm pretty sure they have an assload of colonies in UC space and each one only takes like a couple years to build somehow (which I guess makes sense when Zeon can somehow build tens of thousands of MS during the space after Deikun's death and the end of the OYW). In Gundam you don't drop colonies solely because they're big but because you got a ton just lying around filled with spacenoids who don't have a say in how anything really runs (be you the Federation or Zeon themselves).
>I mean, we have Zeon funding serious research into their Flanagan Institute simply to study Newtypes, so there has to evidence on a certain level in-setting to justify it.
Why? Even IRL governments sometimes start research projects to look at ridiculous subject matter (witness the research that the US and Soviets did on psychics in the, what was it, 70s or 80s?). That doesn't require scientifically quantifiable proof that Newtypes exist, just people with a lot of money and an agenda.
For all we know, the Flanagan Institute could have been set up to prove that Deikun's theory was true (which is the sort of thing that a ideological state like Zeon would do) then they got lucky and stumbled on some mutants with ESP like abilities (Lalah) who they quickly labelled Newtypes to 'prove' that Deikun was right.
>For all we know,
Well, to play the Devil's Advocate, for all we do know, it technically could be either way, or even some other bullshit reason.
What I'm getting at is that both theories are as technically valid as the other here.
As viewers, we technically know next to nothing about what Zeon's original philosophy was and regarding Newtypes if they actually existed or if he was an insane cultist who somehow was given mainstream electoral office and actually got things right on accident.
The way things are, not even really people who LIVE in the UC really quite get what the hell Zeon was saying, as Zeon was able to get all of Side 3 to believe in their interpretation and yet somehow after the existence of Newtypes is not only proven but artificially semi-inducible (semi- being that it has problems usually) that STILL nobody gives credence to Zeon Zum Deikun's philosophy aside from neo-Zabi-ists and people who like dropping colonies on earth.
>so if Deikun had a chance, he will drop something to earth?
If at any point he learned that not only Newtypes exist and that BOTH of HIS children were them he probably would have gone on a psychopathic murdering spree of any and all who stood in the way of the "chosen leaders of the new humanity." The Zabi family and every Zeon resurrection movement in UC combined would probably have a smaller kill count in that case.
>Mobile Suit Gundam UC-If: Deikun's Zeon
> zeon will keep dropping colony, all day erryday
never change, zeon. NEVER. CHANGE.
not complaint or anything because "use what works" was an undeniable common practice. (NO, i'm NOT saying gassing colony & drop later was a good idea)
at least Char was pretty innovative for dropping Axis rather than colony, with a fucking NUKE. it give people clueless (except Londo Bell)
> HA! zeek won't hit us hard anymore because they have no colonies to dro..... HOLY FUCK THEY DROPPING THE AXIS TO US!!
>claiming to be oppressed by other races and then proceeding to claim that damage done to them by fellow white people being the fault of other races
Well, maybe on /pol/
>It was more about showing humans on earth that Spacenoids were the next stage of evolution
i still dont get how spacenoids killing off half the population of other spacenoids was going to achieve this.
When you scrape off the Third Reich veneer, you'll see that Zeon is the faction of social justice warriors and moralfags. The Federation is the status quo, it's the Man keeping you down. I guess the real Nazis were their own sort of social justice warriors and moralfags, seeing themselves as the beautiful-but-downtrodden underdog, oppressed by conspiring, wealthy elites.
The problem is that Germany actually was the proverbial "temporarily embarrassed millionaire." So the Nazis weren't so much underdogs using their new-found power to oppress innocents as they were a force that had overshot on its way back to its old habits. The former almost never happens (which is why I laugh at people who are terrified of SJWs).
Every demagogue throughout history has taken on that narrative. It was true of the Nazis, it's true of white supremacists, it's true of religious nuts, militant atheists, Tumblrtards, redpills, and Trump fans. The enemy is large and oppressive, but built on a weak moral foundation that leaves them ripe for defeat by underdogs with conviction. Believe in the cause with all your heart and we shall be victorious. Zeon is just another one in a long line of people inventing enemies to fight, enemies so terrible that anything is justified if it's to fight them.
I'm pro Zeon and pro Federation.
I'm anti Gundam/newtype and Zabi.
Why does no one realize that gundanium is what the true enemy is? It creates its own artificial intelligence by enhancing humans enough to raise its battle proficiency, then collects those abilities and implants them in each pilot that it encounters. A psycho frame is just a batch of gunmetal that has achieved a certain level of absorption.
Bonus points if a newtype pilot gets killed in it.
Double bonus points if it was a newtype that killed said pilot.
Instant psycoframe grade gundanium if they make a complete mental connection and handshake to the point of mutual understanding(and therefore allow the gundanium to copy their imprint).
A cyber/artificial/induced newtype is just someone who has been exposed to "gundam simulations" in a psycoframe grade gundanium machine. Those who can't deal with it go insane but are still kept and used to attempt to further enrich gundanium.
I can just seem them now collecting the remains from the current gundam's battles to reforge and refine the gundanium into new enemies to pit against him.
>I had always figured it was because of the amount of time they had spent in space.
It is canonically directly proportional to the amount of time spent inside mobile suits. Char "worked hard" for his Newtype powers, and Amuro spent almost his 15th year either inside the Gundam or working on it.
Newtypes are people who get psychic powers from Minovsky radiation.
>One side murdered half of the entire human race
You can't blame that entirely on Zeon. They died as a result of fighting between both sides. Feddies used WMD's during the war as well.
Except that the only recorded instance of the Feds using nukes was the attempt to stop Operation British. They may have used nukes at Loum, but so far all animated depictions of the Battle of Loum (IGLOO and Origin) don't show any usage of nukes there by the Feds.
Kind of a pointless statement you're making. All war is immoral but as the saying goes
"War is always a matter of doing evil in the hope that good may come of it."
The fact that the act saved more lives than it took should be commended. That's all that matters in the end because that's all you can hope for in war.
Fairly painful, yes.
On the bright side, even in /m/ this thread almost immediately refuted OP's theory--not that it was terribly challenging, given it's the Gundam political equivalent of posing "Hey, why are all non-whites left handed?" as a question--with the expectation that no one who wasn't white but was right handed was going to answer.
So, not all bad.
Fuck, still groggy, fucked up the negatives.
I'm black and I always felt that Zeon was wrong.Zeon uses the oppression of the Spacenoids to gain followers but the leaders had no intention of making their lives better.The Spacenoids and Newtypes were just cannon fodder for the goals of whoever was in power at the time
That being said,I always considered Zanscare to be the most evil faction in the Gundam franchise.Those nutjobs made Zeon's insane leaders look normal.
Zeon as an organization grew from the feelings of civil unrest in the colonies, which were seen as mostly a dumping ground for excess humans that the earth's government cared less and less for as time went on. They are also treated as icky things as citizens and colony born is a dirty word like poor. As such, the discrimination aspect can appeal quite well to disenfranchised groups for their reasons for rising up against the earth government. The leadership of Zeon however: they were mostly no better, actually worse, than the Federation government manipulating those feelings. Both sides sucked, but had very good people die en-mass for the greed of a few dickheads.
They had some great looking mobilesuit designs, and Monoeyes make a lot of sense for a civy army compared to the federation cockpit monitors.
So, the French and Irish aren't white. Rethink that thought. Peasant revolts happen and then there are the people who are just looking to see the world burn or the people acting on outrage. Also, France was better for it.
I remember a certain US President warning the people of a certain military industrial complex that grew wildly thanks to the cold war and still manages to screw things up for everyone for the sake of profit and security theater.
Can we at least all agree Zeon was right about deserving freedom from the Earth Sphere, and that the colonies deserved to be self-sustaining?
They fucked up bad in war, but that much was correct.
They had their chance to be self-sustaining and they fucked it up. Side 3 didn't need to trade with the Federation if they had just devoted their production to agriculture or even building more colonies instead of blowing it all on their military. Zeon's leadership deliberately did this in order to create scarcity that they could blame the Federation for.
Side 6 declared autonomy, got it, and peacefully cooperated with the Federation while remaining a sovereign nation. Zeon was never right.
What mostly everyone likes zeon because its the the only show were the bad guys have some plot other than being bad. you know more about zeon's story and politics, and characters than you ever found out about the rich fat greedy earth jews.
they are far more interesting. plus they have all the fucking mechs.
Pretty sure most people like zeon, your retarded op.
Feds are basic bitch shit that every mecha show or even story has. They are basically jedi. but zeon aren't anything like sith. Zeta actually switched it up hard and it was the only time I felt a show really mixed it up with the good guys becoming bad. I really like zeta.
Also I guess I should note the good thing about gundam (for the time) was that both sides fucked up and were mostly in the wrong. Its not a pretty war story. So I guess they really aren't jedi my bad.
Gundam is not grey but its not like its complex like LOGH or any real space drama.
Um did you not read history, after WW1 germany was fucked, hitler fixed it into a superpower by saying fuck you to the treaty allies forced on them (mostly France). Hitler used that a lot. It basically was one of the reasons the war started.
Funny thing is america was the only one who didn't sign it, They knew WW1 was bullshit and nothing could come from taking land and bullying people. Hitler left us alone and since america was 70-80% German,Irish,Italian we didn't mind them.
>Hitler left us alone and since america was 70-80% German,Irish,Italian we didn't mind them.
That would have come as a surprise to Hitler, one of whose famous quotes was that the U.S. was a weak nation "half Judaized, and the other half Negrified." Sage for /pol/off-topic.
zeon was never about race though, that's why they pass. they liked newtypes but didn't fucking kill old types. They just did everything they could to win a war. they weren't able to keep up with fucking earth for long anyway but if they fucking signed that fucking treaty they could of won.