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Am I the only one put off by the fact that...
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Am I the only one put off by the fact that V Gundam tries to portray a woman that silenced her political opponents with a FUCKING GUILLOTINE as a well-intentioned idiot?
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>>13792751
She makes Gihren and Bask seem like quireboys. Scirocco was right these bitches are ice cold.
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>>13792751
>well-intentioned idiot
The word you're looking for is "naive".
And in light of how the board's been shitting itself lately, you probably aren't. And you're probably also omitting the fact that she's more of a figurehead/secret weapon than a proper monarch on purpose, too.
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>>13792751
They're called space ISIS for a reason ya know
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>>13792751
Yeah, it's not like she was a puppet and didn't actually have any control over the state whatsoever, and it's not like she actually ever voiced her dislike of the guillotine.
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>you will never be executed via guillotine, the most metal way to die, because it's "amoral"
Friggen sucks. Yet we electrocute and poison people to death just fine. As long as you don't have to see blood, right pansies?
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>>13792751
>>13792953
And in episode 26, the guillotine was only brought out AFTER Maria had been escorted off the premises after fainting because of her healing thing. It's supposed to show the contrast between the supposed ideals of the Zanscare Empire and it's actions. To the people living in Zanscare, Maria is practically a saint and a mother to all of them. It's Kagatie & co. who takes that loyalty and twists it into violence. It's basically
>See just how great and kind our Queen is? There are people out there that would oppose and kill her. Send them all to the guillotine!
This is where some of the conflict with Shakti and Uso occurs. Inside Zanscare they see that Maria is such a kind woman who heals her people, but to any party on the outside, Zanscare looks like a brutal Robespierrean regime. People wonder why anyone would want to live in a nation that silences any opposition with the guillotine.
The real problem with Zanscare wasn't Maria Armonia and her ideals, it was just the conniving Jovian as usual. >>13792938 put it perfectly - she was just naive.
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>>13792971
>Yet we electrocute and poison people to death just fine. As long as you don't have to see blood, right pansies?

Oh gosh, no, that's barbaric. The loss of human life is horrific, and should never be used as a punishment.
Now solitary confinement, that's the ticket. Maybe a little white torture for the really bad people, too. Torturing 'em until they BEG for death is fine, but actually KILLING them is way too far.
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>>13792751
>>13792938

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Zanscare_Empire

No, she's not naive. She really is a well-intentioned idiot.

She basically started space feminism. Just like feminism in real life, its proponents are indeed well-intentioned, but they are idiots so they get exploited by others to gain political power.
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>>13793034
>Gundam wiki
You do know it's filled with errors, and that you can't take anything on it seriously, right? The sheer amount of sources they give in that article really lends to their credibility.
After all, this is the same site that says,
>Üso and Shakti use the word "Kasarelia" a lot. This is their word for 'a peaceful place', and eventually becomes somewhat of a rallying call for them
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Uso_Ewin

despite the fact that this directly contradicts with what is said in the show (when Uso initially meets the Godwald the Space Tiger, they say "kasarelia" as a farewell when they part ways for the first time)and in a different article on the site itself they write
>Point Kasarelia: Located close to Uwig, this secluded hideaway was home to illegal residents Üso Ewin and Shakti Kareen. Üso claims its name comes from a South Pacific language, meaning "hello" or "goodbye".
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Universal_Century_Locations#Europe

So I genuinely wouldn't trust a site that barely gives citations or references for any of their articles, and that doesn't even have the slightest bit of internal consistency.

And the fact that you had to bring up feminism as some boogeyman or topic of ridicule makes me know not to take you seriously.
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>>13793034
>using the Gundam wikia
Bruh, no.
Besides, nothing in that link contradicts what I posted in >>13792938, or what was posted in >>13793009.

It's been a couple of months since I re-watched Victory, but if I remember correctly:

- She gets political support because of Kagatie, who continues to call the shots behind her back.
- Her "feminism" (you don't need to call it "space feminism", it's not like she's saying that Scirocco was half-right and everybody will let women take over when they become Newtypes) begins and ends with her saying that pure minds and a mother's touch can save everyone.
And
- She went along with a master plan that basically amounts to coddling the earth into submission, all the while assuming that this won't backfire or leave people easily exploited at all, ever.

She's naive.

Jeez, if you just wanted to have a speech about how much humbug feminists peddle, you should have gone off on Katejina's state of mind while she was still a trainee under Chronicle. Or better yet, you could have actually saved it for your blog or something.
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>>13793098

The Turn-A Gundam article is my go to example and is a complete mess of unsourced shit and factually incorrect information that proves that the people writing and maintaining it either didn't watch the show or weren't paying much attention when they did because they perpetuate rumors and misinformation that a single viewing of even select episodes should negate.

The site is for instance the main proponent (at least as far as I can tell) of the idea that the Turn-A and Turn-X cannot use the Moonlight Butterfly except in each other's presence and that one unit has the system program and nanomachines while the other has the energy required for their use. A casual viewing of any of the last 6 or so episodes, which are the only ones that Moonlight Butterfly comes up in will show just how stupid that is, because the Turn-A and Turn-X both use the Moonlight Butterfly independent of each other, more than once in the case of the Turn-A. Gym also prepares to use the Moonlight Butterfly before he's even been in the direct presence of the Turn-A and talks about it like something he's already familiar with so it can't just be that they need to be close to unlock and can use it freely after that one off event.
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>>13793245

It also just makes up the idea that the Moonlight Butterfly was what destroyed the weapons in the DOC base that Loran found under Nocis, except for the Gundam hammers which, according to it (and nothing in show) were covered in nanomachines and so weren't destroyed. It is also misinformed that the Turn-A's i-field can protect it from a nuclear explosion in show. The i-field (or some kind of energy shield at least) protected it from the nuclear fallout, not from the explosion, which the Turn-A was just out of range of. It for some reason assumes that the Moonlight Butterfly in show goes as far as Jupiter but made an exception of the Moon for no stated reason and in the cases of most mentions of stuff solely from the manuals, novels and games concerning the Black History Turn-A makes no distinction. It does make the occasional bit of distinction though, so that you're left with a mangled idea of what is from the show and what is from supplementary sources.
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>>13792751
Works for Hillary.
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>>13792953
She says that like every one of the things the Zanscare Empire is doing isn't being carried out in her name.

Bitch, you know this shit is going on and you're not exactly doing or saying anything to stop or even oppose it. The most she does is help Uso and co, but that's mostly because they know Shakti. Saying "Well, I don't really care for these things, myself..." doesn't absolve her of this. All she did is come out, heal a few crippies, and fuck off back to bed. Very nice of her, but yeah... Motorad Fleet. Speaking of, anyone got "YOU'RE GONNA GET TIRED!"

She's naive, but not THAT naive. She knew that Kagatie was a brutal fuck but she not only didn't oppose him, but straight up collaborated with him until Tassilo told her what Angel Halo was really doing. I think it's kind of hilarious that the absolute genocide of the human population on earth is where she finally draws the line.
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>>13792751
She's just a figurehead. Did you even finish the show?
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>>13792971
>Yet we electrocute and poison people to death just fine

And soon we wont be able to do that anymore either because of whiny bleeding hearts. Fuck this gay ass world.
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IT GOES IT GOES
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>>13793098
>And the fact that you had to bring up feminism as some boogeyman or topic of ridicule

Are you suggesting feminism isn't a topic of ridicule?
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>>13792751
How do you guys not get that she is just a stand in for Hirohito?
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>>13794946
A figurehead that's relatively complacent with Zanscare's methods, even if she doesn't entirely approve of them, which is why the people in this thread are kind of perplexed when the show tries to paint her as innocent. Kagatie might have been the one in power, but there were many in his ranks that looked up to her far more to the point where her word was far from worthless.

She doesn't seem too broken up about the fact that entire earth cities are being annihilated, and to some degree, she views the people fighting against Zanscare's efforts to "cleanse" the Earth as "wicked people" until she finds out what Angel Halo was really for.

This isn't even new, like a "well fuck, we've come this far and it's too late to stop now" attitude; the Guillotine has been in use since the beginning when the Gattle Party took power, and it was used in -her- name. She can condemn it all she wants; she did nothing to vocalize her opposition to it to those that would have listened. She honest to god thought Zanscare was doing the right thing for the greater good all this time.
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>>13795019

But Hirohito was the actual bastard and Tojo was just some scapegoat Yes man.
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>>13792751
>women
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>>13792953
>>13793009
The only guy ITT with a brain
besides me
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>>13794520
>>13795126
You genuinely overestimate the extent of what she knew and what she could do. She couldn't oppose him, which is the entire point of being a puppet, and she was fed misinformation by all the high ranking officers in Zanscare.
>there were many in his ranks that looked up to her far more to the point where her word was far from worthless.
Any action against Kagatie by anyone more loyal to Maria would be met with the guillotine, under the pretense that they're traitors.

Again, even when you say,
>She doesn't seem too broken up about the fact that entire earth cities are being annihilated
it's only because he never gets told the truth. When she asks them why they razed Woowig, Iq claims that it couldn't be avoided, since that was where the League Militaire's mobile suit factories were, but he lies and tells her that they evacuated the civilians, so no one innocent really got killed. She believes his misinformation, because she's naive. And as she wants the war to be over very quickly, as shown in another screencap ITT, burning a city down without civilians that produces mobile suits is a surefire way to bring the war to an end sooner rather than later.

I'm not absolving her of anything, and as you said she still bears some of the blame for not opposing the Gattle party before they gained too much power. But like I said, you're overestimating the amount of agency she had, and completely misunderstanding her character.
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>>13795246
It sounds like you're saying the woman was nothing more than a tool with no agency of their own, thereby making her a lesser person than Zanscare's male members.
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>>13795277
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>>13795246
Not him, but the very fact that people were being put to -death- at all, by a guillotine, no less, and the fact that the most she ever has to say on the matter is "I'd prefer not to if we could help it" is pretty damning in itself. The whole ideology of a society based around the concepts of motherly love publicly decapitating anyone that isn't copacetic with the idea is pretty damn fuck nuts in itself. They didn't put a gun to her head and tell her to go along with it; She was indeed okay with being the figurehead to a government that literally used a guillotine to execute it's undesirable element.

The second my followers start holding giant, horrifying public execution rallies using methods from the medieval times on the non-believers is the second I bounce. She didn't even wag her finger.
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>>13795294
She's a woman with a position of power, wealth and authority.

Of course she's not going to sacrifice everything to try in vain to help some lowly peasants.
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>>13795301
>authority
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>>13795308
>implying such a patrician doesn't have authority over the common pleb
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>>13795294
>The whole ideology of a society based around the concepts of motherly love publicly decapitating anyone that isn't copacetic with the idea is pretty damn fuck nuts in itself
Yeah, that was the point, as I said earlier. It's a very "Hitler's willing executioners" situation.
But the fact is that the Gattle party got her in power, and without them she wouldn't have been able to reach as many people as she could have. I can understand if in her eyes a few people, who she's been told are "wicked" and evil, being executed wouldn't be so bad, given that because of that she's put in a position of power where she can help millions of people who aren't being executed.
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>>13795312
Her authority extends to my dik and not much else.
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>>13795320
Then I guess she'll be sending your dick to the guillotine.
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>>13792751

Nearly all major female characters in Victory are stupidly incompetent or eager soldiers and possibly insane. Sometimes all of the above like Lupe.
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>>13795439
The Shrike team was pretty damn good, all things considered. The only reason they ever died is because they either sacrificed themselces, went up against tech that far outclassed them, or just plain bum luck.
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>>13795439
That describes almost every adult in Victory, except for Marbet and the old soldier who taught Uso not to half-ass his kills. Maybe Junko and some of her team, too, depending on whether you count some of their sacrifices as necessary or stupid.
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>>13796776

Or they were suddenly dumb.

>Do you want to defect?!
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>>13796850

Junko didn't sacrifice herself, she'd already gotten over her death wish

She legit didn't expect to die there
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>>13796860
That's a good point, I should have been more specific on that last part. It was a depressing death, but it wasn't glaringly abrupt or questionable.
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>>13796855
Been a long time since I watched V Gundam but I don't remember any talk of defection
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>>13797282

As I recall, Katejina going nuts at Shakti's song or whatever that psychic resonance was and temporarily shooting up the Angel Halo caused one of the Shrikes to think that she was thinking of defecting. She swiftly died for her troubles.
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>>13792751
Marie is an EVIL ADULT and a TERRIBLE MOTHER that wanted to treat humanity like toddlers. This is contrast with Shakti who wanted to guide humanity to the future by not treating them like toddlers. Marie is just as evil as the Zanscare Empire.
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>>13797303
Oh, I thought you meant a Shrike pilot thinking of defecting.

To be fair, that's not a ridiculous conclusion to come to for a non-newtypr pilot.
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>>13796850

It's more noteworthy with them since Victory aims to say something about women with its dichotomy. The most competent pilots Zanscare had were two women but they were brutally insane. Fuala was so out of it that the concept of pregnancy confused her and it's a deliberate statement.

>>13796776

Junko was good. The others were above average to mediocre. Marbet was better than all of them. Funny how becoming pregnant made her a better pilot.
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>>13797957
>It's more noteworthy with them since Victory aims to say something about women with its dichotomy

Not much more than he does with his other shows. The deepest he ever gets into a commentary about women is with Marbet and her pregnancy...and maybe with Shakti and Karlmann.

I think he tried with Queen Maria and her relationship with the male leaders of the Zanscare empire but any sort of portrayal of her ideals in comparison to their execution is lost when you consider the Gattle Party used a guillotine on her enemies and political opponents with her (reluctant) blessing.
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>>13793098
>and in a different article on the site itself they write
>Point Kasarelia: Located close to Uwig, this secluded hideaway was home to illegal residents Üso Ewin and Shakti Kareen. Üso claims its name comes from a South Pacific language, meaning "hello" or "goodbye".

I'm not going to argue that Gundam Wiki should be completely trusted, nor that we shouldn't be expected to cite things on wikis, but what in particular is wrong with this quote?

Check near the end of Episode 15, when Usso is talking to Godwald. What words do the subs you use say? The ones I have in front of me now say

>Kasarelia, in a northern pacific language means "Hello" or "See you again!"

I didn't bother to translate the full sentence, but I can hear "minami" in there, so I think Hero Legends made a typo, and it should be Southern Pacific like I believe I saw in other subs. Also, Usso uses "konnichiwa" and "sayonara", so the Wiki's "goodbye" is probably better than the "See you again!" from Hero Legends.

Maybe I'll hop over there and add a citation, but let me know if there's anything wrong with the statement itself.

If we want to direct people away from the Gundam Wiki, where should people go for accurate info instead? /m/? Or should we just stick to the source material? The Wiki needs improving, sure, but if you know not to take it as the final word, it should be helpful.
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>>13792751
I wouldn't consider trying to turn the entire human race into giant infants well-intended.
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>>13793121
>(you don't need to call it "space feminism", it's not like she's saying that Scirocco was half-right and everybody will let women take over when they become Newtypes)

Actually, I remember Katejina mentioning something about how Oldtypes can't be allowed to remain in power. It was only Katejina who said it, and I can't remember what episode it was when she said it, but I took that to imply that Newtype "supremacism" was still a part of Zanscare's ideology. So I think it was a sort of Spacenoid-centric feminism.
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>>13808293
Yeah, I remember that. That's why I added that bit about Katejina near the end of the post - she got all gung-ho about that stuff after she had spent some more time in Zanscare's military. But Maria had a different take on things, and I was emphasizing Maria's viewpoint, so that's why I said what you quoted.

All that stuff about Oldtypes and dudes Katejina was spouting off about was probably an ad hoc justification for her shift in personality - one most likely formed from her horrible relationship with her father, and her response to his death. Only a little bit of it overlaps with Maria's viewpoint.
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