Probably some weird Current Events shit going on in Japan.
I don't think Char's development was ever a planned one, that it probably happened organically due to other decisions that happened with the series.
Consider that Quattro really isn't the focus of Zeta at all, instead he's the victim of the shows premise: A Complete Polarization from 0079 Gundam. Kamille is basically the opposite of Amuro, he isn't some homebody tech geek, and he's not a stupid teen who fumbles his way into a Gundam by necessity or accident. He's an angry, pissed off, war ready punk who defects to the enemy side at the first chance he gets. He chooses to jump into the suit not to protect your colony from Zaku's but to bully a soldier who was mean to him. Amuro needs a Char, so he gets Jared, but he also needs to be the opposite of Amuro so instead of Char fighting Kamille, he helps him.
So Quattro is there to be Kamille's Bright, but to also be Char. I can only imagine that the speech he gave was probably at the height of some environmental concern and that the premise of a bunch of island-colonies being bullied by a tyrannical mainland is some sort of thing Japanese can relate to.
Then when they decided to make a movie about, what I'm told is the equivalent of America's Darth Vader, they decide to make him take up his villain role and destroy earth. The environmental shit probably went out the window and it was all Third Impact- when was evangelion released again?
I feel that after it was all said and done and they were making Gundam Wing that they wanted to retell the entire Char Story. We know that Sayla was cut from a lot of shit because her voice actor fucked off, so Quattro and Old Char never got to be the war mongering brother who fought for peace and contrast against his sister who argued for Peace Peacefully.
We do in Gundam Wing though, and it even ends in a philosophical sword fight in the center of the giant colony/asteroid he's dropping onto Earth. I think the only thing missing is the whole Lalah and little girl subplot.
>>13785865 Have you seen the first two episodes? Kamille skips school and punches a uniformed officer in the face. Then gets to spin kick another Officer in the face, wanders a Military Base and then essentially steals one of their mobile suits. Then he DOES switch sides. Maybe in the grand scope of Zeta its not true, but all of the elements of the original are polarized in the beginning.
>>13785967 >Sign onto facebook >Elections are coming up and everyone is in full swing political bullshit talk >Economies been shit, been in the same on and off war for ten years >Bunch of idiot friends keep posting this one candidate who insists that New Types are real and that they'll appear to run our government for us >Close out facebook >Go onto youtube >Put on an Opinion Piece about how the idea of NewTypes undermines the War Effort >Close out yotube >Open up /pol/ >Everything is a Zabi Conspiracy! >Those damn Zabists!
>>13785892 >Then he DOES switch sides. Not exactly. Kamille isn't anti-Federation he's anti-Titans. Most of AEUG were still Fed, and Kamille was never pro-Fed so he didn't switch sides. He did join a rebel group at the first opportunity, though. And he did spaz the fuck out, violently, on the Titans that he came into personal contact with and then go hijack a Gundam to go all stompy around one like WHO'S LAUGHING NOW?! So the "angry, pissed off, war ready punk who defects" is right, but the Titans were already his enemy.
>>13786021 MSG: >The Zeon want me to be a zealot, but I want to avenge my father so I'll act like a zealot to get close to the people I want to kill >This newtype girl wants me to rescue other newtypes like I rescued her and I feel bad about killing Garma >Kycilia is willing to trust me because she thinks I've decided to be a savior for newtypes, so I'll act like a savior for newtypes because FUCK being a Zabi Zealot ZETA: >These AEUG guys want me to be a hero for spacenoids and root out corruption and build a better world and shit, and my revenge thing is kind of over, so I'll act like a hero for spacenoids CCA These spacenoids want me to carry on my father's legacy and get revenge for Feddie oppression or whatever so I'll act like an anti-Federal rabble rouser trying to spur humanity's development forward with a colony drop or something UNICORN >Hi, I'm the ghost of Amuro Ray, but I dressed up like Char and you never even noticed. I'm using the fact that people think I'm Char to get the disenfranchised spacenoids to back a non-violent approach to overpowering the Federation
> I don't think Char's development was ever a planned one, that it probably happened organically due to other decisions that happened with the series.
Bang on really. Char in 0079 was originally planned to be a cautionary tale regarding revenge, where he'd get so obsessed with Amuro that he would end up helping Gihren fulfill his plans to take over the Earthsphere and it climaxing with Gihren pinning a medal to his chest for it as Char realizes how badly he fucked up. When the White Base makes one last push at Axis to kill Gihren Char was supposed to hop in to a mobile suit to help the White Base crew clear the way for Amuro and be implied to die after meeting Sayla one last time. The show's cancellation threw that out the window though, and so the show had to be majorly re-written to wrap up quickly, which is why we got something much different, and frankly much better.
The original plan for Zeta was to have it be a two season show that would be concluded in ZZ, where Char would spend Zeta finding himself and what he wanted after his revenge plot with the Zabis was done and then in ZZ he'd become an anti-hero who appeared in the second half of the show as one of Haman's commanders who fought Judau with the intention of helping make him a better pilot by their battles and then, at the show's climax killed Haman and all of the Federation's commanders so that when Judau makes a speech asking people to leave the Earth behind and head for space, they actually pay attention and don't have political opposition (since the EF is headless at the time) and thus early UC ends with everyone moving in to colonies and Judau leading a new movement to Mars.
Then during Zeta or ZZ something happened and Char's Counterattack was pushed, with Char being taken out of ZZ and the entire thing being changed majorly to account for it. That's really all we know though.
He also started Gaia Gear in April 1988, a few months after ZZ finished up. And would have been planning for at least a few weeks before it first began publication in magazines. Char's Counterattack must have began planning at some point during ZZ at the latest I would imagine, but could have been planned even earlier for all we know.
We know that that was the original plan for Zeta and ZZ because there have been data book translations that say it. What we don't know is when those plans changed. For all we know they may have changed during Zeta's production. It can't have been too early during Zeta at least, since the Zeta Part II plans refer to Zeta's finale and are clear on who lives/dies and so on, but it may still have happened then for all we know.
I wonder if there's more such information floating around in Japanese we just don't know? I'd love to see stuff like this for F91 personally, since it's production was such a troubled mess.
>>13786172 Are you shitting me? (pic related) >>13786188 >She also explicitly refers to Full Frontal as "captain", 1. Char's ghost is visible next to FF when she says that, *before* FF shuts down. 2. FF's rank is also Captain
Also >Amuro is the green ghost Do you expect me to believe that Char has a newtype aura that fucking huge? It's repeatedly stated that Char's newtype power is slight, Chalia Bull couldn't even detect it at all. Amuro on the other hand.....
>>13786907 Ask the animators. Probably because it's more recognizable than his CCA outfit. It is very clearly the Red Comet outfit, though. If you don't believe that's Char's ghost, I'd love to hear your theory on why AMURO would be dressed like that.
>>13785860 >He's an angry, pissed off, war ready punk who defects to the enemy side at the first chance he gets. >enemy Except Kamille never saw them as an enemy. Even before his fight with Jerid, it was pretty obvious he hated the Titans, even if only for the fact that as soon as he sees them at the spaceport he has that look on his face like someone just shit in the punchbowl. They even expand on this later when he first gets to the Argama and talks about reading about Amuro through underground publications he got on Green Noah/Grypps. This isn't a kid who went to war with the world cause a prick made fun of his name. He had an ax to grind in general and Jerid just happened to be the idiot who fanned the flame, both with the insult and his later callous attitude towards murdering Kamille's mother.
>but to bully a soldier who was mean to him. Incorrect. Yeah, he gives the MP a "How do you like me now?" once he's in there, but he didn't even know he was at the scene when he got into the Mk-II in the first place.
It's largely just a reckless act of "Well, I've got the Titans on my ass, now wha--hey, I can handle that thing. The AEUG's here? Let me join up with you guys!'
He's pretty careless at first, but people REALLY overstate the impact of that first fight and MP giving him shit.
>>13786944 3 ghosts 2 of them appear before FF shuts down Char and Lalah are seen and heard FF shuts down 3rd ghost appears Amuro is heard
Watch the scene again. I know most of /m/ thinks it was Char, but that doesn't mean shit when you think about /m/'s attention to detail vs /m/'s attention to repeating what they've heard about shit they haven't watched.
>>13786960 That is circumstantial evidence that completely ignores that Full Frontal's motivations and the thematic of the story have nothing to do with Amuro at all. Since when was Amuro in favor of reviving Zeon and achieving spacenoid superiority via an economic embargo of the Earth?
>>13787006 To say nothing for the entire 'let's instigate the Zeonic remnants on Earth to rise up - they'll fail miserably and so we'll be rid of their hawkish legacy' is the kind of thing Amuro would find repellent, but is RIGHT up Char's 'ends justify the means' alley.
>>13786073 This version of gundam sounds very interesting,It would be cool if one day bandai decides to revisit the original early UC and revise/reboot it. It seems Tomino wanted the story of the early UC to revolve more around Char though,Amuro seems to fall off the face of the earth between msg and cca
>>13787006 >Since when was Amuro in favor of reviving Zeon Since when was Char interested in economics? Full Frontal was trying to instigate social change through economics rather than war. Not at all something Char would do, as Mineva said.
Also "circumstantial" is a pretty stupid thing to say when >character A speaks >character B speaks >both leave >third character appears >third character speaks Again, Char's ghost is already outside Full Frontal before Full Frontal shuts down. He doesn't shut down until immediately before the third ghost appears, and Amuro's voice appears. How could it be Char if Char's ghost was already outside of FF before FF went catatonic? Why was Char's ghost shown outside of FF instead of Amuro's ghost? THINK, man, THINK.
> 1. Char's ghost is visible next to FF when she says that, *before* FF shuts down. > 2. FF's rank is also Captain
Yes, and if you paid attention to her wording there, she says "when you were you, captain". Again, there's no chance she's referring to Full Frontal as anyone but Char there, because the line makes no sense otherwise - both because Amuro's not in the scene at the time, because Amuro was never a captain and because Amuro never espoused any of the ideas Frontal does in life. Especially when Full Frontal explicitly dresses himself as and refers to himself as Char during the show.
>>13787921 Are you forgetting that Char is also in that scene? Why the fuck are you so positive she's talking to Frontal? Why is Char's ghost in that scene instead of Amruo's, if Char's ghost is supposed to be in FF? Why don't you see Amuro's ghost until after FF dies? >Full Frontal explicitly dresses himself and refers to himself as Char during the show So did Casval. And then Casval dresses himself and refers to himself as Quattro. That doesn't mean shit, because in order to accomplish his goal he *needed* to be "Char". There is no more reason for Casval Rem Deikun to be pretending to be Char than for Amuro Ray to be pretending to be Char.
And once again: WHY DO YOU SEE CHAR'S GHOST BUT NOT AMURO'S BEFORE FF DIES?
> Why the fuck are you so positive she's talking to Frontal
She's talking both Char and Frontal. The conversation makes no sense if she's talking to Amuro, because she's telling him that he has let people know enough of the thoughts he had when he was alive. Amuro didn't have any of Frontal's thoughts when he was alive, but Char did. Frontal is basically repeating Char's thoughts from his final scenes with Amuro during the climax of Char's Counterattack when Frontal is speaking to Banagher just prior to this scene. It being Amuro makes not a jot of sense.
The entire point of Frontal is that he's only a small piece of Char anon, some memories and thoughts pulled from a machine after the real thing died. To be fair, the anime doesn't really go in to detail on that for some reason. Regardless, Char's ghost can appear because he's just coming to collect the last pieces of himself there. Frontal very obviously dies after Char's ghost touches him, because he goes still and the color of his skin changes.
There's also the fact that it's Char's voice that speaks as the blue newtype ghost appears out of the Sinanju's cockpit, not Amuros. Amuro talks a second before hand, not during that scene. If you watch the scene again, there's a small pin-prick of light floats across the screen and asks if it's okay, then disappears out the side of the screen. After which, the ghost rises out of the cockpit, speaks in Char's voice as it does so and then joins the other two.
>>13788070 He also has piss-poor power levels. It's not a matter of being showy, Char is barely a newtype while Amuro is massively powerful. Do you not understand what these "newtype aura" images mean? The reason Judau was ten stories tall in ZZ?
>>13788079 >obvious that Char was possessing FF >from outside >right there on the fucking screen, floating next to FF >Amuro's ghost nowhere to be seen >until after FF dies >anon's brain nowhere to be seen >only shadows of /m/ threads he's read >this is how the universe ends
>>13787958 You realize Full Frontal isn't quite Char, exactly, right? He's a sort of imprint of part of him; the lingering memories and emotions and regret from the Sazabi's psycho-frame put into the body of someone altered to look like Char and turned into a newtype. He's a (likely insane) man who has been quite literally forced to carry on Char's ideals and play the role of Char, and who is completely incapable of being anything else. He's even aware of this, calling himself a vessel constantly, etc. Lalah and the real Char come to stop him probably because they're the only people he'd listen to.
The bird is Lalah ,for God's sake.It even has hair buns. But,hey,who am I to say? I am not a Gundam expert like you guys. Like,maybe Amuro and Lalah were added just for fan service,but then...no.I'm sure you have it right.
They're ghosts anon, not people. They're not constrained by time anymore, never mind by size. All three of them also explicitly grow larger a few seconds later as they leave, so even if you want to say that Char has to be the pin-prick because he doesn't have the newtype power to be bigger (a) the blue bird one speaks with Char's voice and (b) the green one grows just as big as the other two a few seconds later regardless meaning your point is invalid.
The blue bird speaks with Char's voice and for a few frames it's head even resembles Char's 0079 helm. It's Char. The yellow one is Lalah, who takes on a yellow aspect as she leads the Neo Zeong out of it's acid trip and the green one has to be Amuro by process of elimination.
Because the three ghosts aren't Char, Lalah and Full Frontal since Char and Full Frontal are one and the same. Frontal is just a part of Char that rejoins him in death. Amuro is there because there's no reason he can't or shouldn't be there.
>>13788324 >Full Frontal is another person who was brainwashed into thinking he is Char who was then hijacked by Amuro's ghost to lead the Zeon remnants to a peaceful settlement instead of another war.
Full Frontal isn't brainwashed in to thinking he's Char, he's had Char's memories and personality supplanted over his own. Whatever personality he had originally died long ago and all that's left is Char. This isn't more effort than the writer's put in, this is the exact explanation the guy who wrote it used - quite possibly under orders from Sunrise or Bandai, considering he was essentially told to write certain things and was very obviously not happy with some of it, including Unicorn becoming a god machine in the finale. It's also entirely consistent with what's shown on screen.
>>13785692 What he's truly angry at is the wasteful and careless nature of the Earthnoid elite. The point he makes about the Earth being turned to waste by them isn't necessarily about hugging trees, it's about pointing his finger at society and saying "this is how wretched your existence is, you wouldn't even bat an eye while you destroy the cradle and birthplace of humanity."
In other words, it's a sort of standard with which he judges humanity.
That said, in Gundam the Earth has special significance and is given some particular monikers, like "the blue star of water", "cradle of humanity", "birthplace of humanity". It's well known Tomino thinks that humans should all convert to animism, a belief that all our surroundings are just as alive as us.
>>13788330 The easy answer is always going to be that it is Char's ghost and that Char inhabited a clone body of himself through some weird space ritual. To me it kind of looks like Char is getting up and leaving Full Frontal after Lalah's suggestion. Immediately FF pales, rots and dies.
We see Lalah's Golden spirit fly off out of the mobile suit and leads them back to the present, but we don't see Char's. Only his mobile suit.
Prior to the death scene we see a green stream of light emerge from the ending conflict in CCA and it leads FF and Banana through a lot of significant Amuro moments.
So easy answer is: Amuro is Green, Lalah is gold and Char is Blue.
Why is Char a blue spirit and not a red spirit? A light moving away from you has a Red Shift, since the ending is about Amuro, Lalah and Char coming together, and Char going home to Space Hell then he's probably having a Blue Shift(when light moves towards you, if you're a moron you need it spelled out for you). Or because Blue is a color with... good meaning, I don't know.
If you want to dig for a Hard Answer then: It's possible that the Green Light isn't the color code for Amuro but was the color chosen to represent the Amuro/Char(and maybe Lalah) New Type explosion. Instead of being possessed by Char, he's actually possessed by a Char/Amuro hybrid. Meanwhile Bananagher is actually an Amuro clone who doesn't go crazy and out-newtypes the two by having a hot loli girlfriend who helps his spirit not be weighed down by Earth's Gravity. Why the fuck not? Char, able to come to terms with being dead and not being an evil war monger is able to separate from Amuro's aura and become a blue bird. Note the green aura it's shrugging off as it emerges. >>13788023
Let me rewrite Zeta, then adapt it into an adult-oriented TV show that does not pander to children . Have it be more gritty, long, and grandiose. Let's have LSD like Newtype hallucinations, explore Quattro and Kamille's bond, flesh out Four and Kamille's relationship, redeem Jerid's character, talk about masculinity, and give Amuro more to do. Let's have Scirocco be more of a misunderstood messiah than a generic antagonist. Let's throw in a very powerful, Newtype supremacist as an antagonist that is very fixated with Kamille's abilities. Let's explore Char's history with Haman and the trauma that caused him to walk away from Neo-Zeon. Let's spend more time watching Kamille grow from a character fueled by revenge to a character fueled by his love for humanity. That's how I'd fix it.
>>13788410 >Sides Co-Prosperity Sphere plan will lead to another war in at most a few decades, That's just an assertion made by Mineva, who cannot even see the time. Of course he wouldn't be concerned if he knew from seeing the future that she was wrong.
Except that's not what happened. The Side Co-Prosperity Sphere didn't happen. What did? ANOTHER WAR. And then ANOTHER WAR. And then ANOTHER WAR. So...where is your Mineva now?
Frontal agrees that it's highly likely to happen and is unconcerned, because he sees himself as the vessel for the desires of spacenoids and that in his opinion is the will of spacenoids.
Mineva never wanted or acted like opening the box would bring eternal peace, she just wanted the end of Zeon as a cause of war. And so far at least, she's gotten it. Another war is going to happen eventually, because it's human nature to come in to conflict over resources and shit eventually, Frontal's plan wouldn't have changed that. Nor would the plans of any side within UC.
>>13788661 >The easy answer is always going to be that it is Char's ghost and that Char inhabited a clone body of himself through some weird space ritual. >To me it kind of looks like Char is getting up and leaving Full Frontal after Lalah's suggestion. How about we just go with the most canon answer that engineers pulled psychoframe from sazabi fragments that still held an imprint of Char's memories, and use this to create a Cyber Newtype doppelganger (you cannot convince me it's not Johnny Ridden, it's fucking perfect pottery and would redeem everything wrong with Unicorn by just how fucking much it shoves a throbbing cock of pure irony up his ass and fucks him with it) to hold the torch of Zeon and continue the struggle.
>>13788695 >>13788710 >>13788761 Oh fuck, I thought I was on a "How do we fix Gundam thread". >>13788748 There will have to be quite the suspension of disbelief. But Batman is about a rich guy, dressed as a giant bat, that fights a man that dresses like a clown. It's silly on paper, yet The Dark Knight is, while non-realistic, has weight and gravitas and doesn't feel cartoonish.
>>13788769 But the point is that war happens either way. One way the Sides are improved and the earth left alone because it's impossible to be profitable from earth, which means the earth heals. The other way, the colonies continue to deteriorate under the "rule" of an increasingly uncaring Federation until the colonies start producing all-new all-different revolutionary wackos with murderbots and/or amnesia machines. The reality of what happened in late UC is really no kind of "lesser evil" compared to FF's plan. Not that Mineva knew that, but it's arguable that FF would know that because of that whole "seeing the time" thing.
There is nothing to support the idea that if the Sides were given independence or took it by their own means (whether martial or economic) that they would suddenly become much more peaceful and not filter whackjobs in to positions of power. If anything, just the opposite is true, since Turn-A and G-Reco have assholes in charge of space factions despite having no interference from Earth for a long time. Dianna was only one of the rulers of the Moonrace and probably the least powerful on paper. Both Agrippa Maintainer and Gym Ghingham ruled in some capacity too and were much more hostile and dickish than she was.
The Earth might heal, but then, people can use technology to heal the Earth too. Which is actually never addressed in UC, simply because Tomino doesn't appear to really like or trust technology that goes beyond a certain level. Or perhaps he just doesn't believe people are capable of doing it or something.
>>13788915 >Both Agrippa Maintainer and Gym Ghingham ruled in some capacity too They were supposed to be below her in the heirarchy. Agrippa Maintainer basically staged a Coup D'Etat and Gym just wound up running unchecked. But to reiterate my point, even if the world that might result from the Co-Prosperity Sphere might not be better than actual Late UC, it would be pretty hard for it to be any worse. It's not like Audrey saved the world or anything by stopping Frontal's plan, Late UC is a shithole.
And yet late UC is actually kind of restrained compared to early UC in many ways. Late UC had one really major war that we know of, along with one minor insurgency in the space of 50+ years, early UC had one huge war, 2 smaller ones and 2 insurgencies in the space of 17 years. There were several successful or attempted colony drops in early UC and only really one major doomsday moment in late UC. The death toll in later UC is lower and so on. It actually could have been worse, because it could have been more like early UC. The Sides Co-Prosperity Sphere plan might have been better, we'll never know. It also might have made things worse too for all we know though.
>>13788965 >might have been better, we'll never know. It also might have made things worse too for all we know Don't forget the fact that the character who proposed this plan is confirmed in that same story to be able to see the future all the way to the end of the universe. You and I might not know, Mineva might not know, but FF did, and Mineva stopped him from trying to build the better future.
She stopped him from building a future that he thought was better for a very specific sub-group and the only part of the future he was ever concerned with or shown to know anything about was the heat death of the universe, because he was kind of an emo that figured if everything lead to death then nothing was worth it and it didn't matter what happened or who lived or died and that one outcome was really the same as another ultimately, so serving the group that he was set up to serve was fine regardless of what war or death it might lead to.
Even when he takes Banana through time he doesn't show him the future of UC as we know it or as he sees it if his plans come to fruition, only the heat death of the universe along with the confirmed past of UC as it relates to him (i.e. Char). So no, there's really no grounds to say that his plans were serving a better future and it was denied because of Mineva and Banagher's actions.
>>13788789 >you cannot convince me it's not Johnny Ridden Ridden already has his own side-story in UC and he's hanging out with the FSS studying old OYW military secrets with a loli college student. Stop trying to shove the poor man into some ridiculous fantasy. MSV-R is more sensible than Ridden being FF, and that still has Ridden being so brain-damaged from oxygen deprivation that he's fucking forgotten everything about his past before post-OYW.
>>13785692 Zeta is my favorite anime, I've seen it 4 times, and the summit at Dakar is still one of the most Jarring things i've seen in gundam. They come up with all of these plans to show how corrupt the Titans are, and Char spends 3/4ths of his speech talking about the fucking environment, something that had not been discussed in any meaningful way outside of mankinds manifest destiny for space. Shit's weird
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