>>13784050 >Two characters are set up as love interests for the Princess >Random character marries her at the end instead Of course it's not literal NTR. I do feel bad for anyone who happened to self-insert as either of the protags only to have their princess taken away. I feel bad not because they were betrayed, but because they had bad enough taste to feel invested in this POS. So tragic.
>>13784033 I still don't get how people like the first season more than the second. The first season was aggravating and bland and stupid. The second season turned the stupid up to 11. With people constantly talking of backstabbing, Slaine slowly losing control of everything, Inaho letting his eye control him, S2 should be better regarded for being unintentionally entertaining, where the first season only managed to do that for the first 2 episodes.
First half had some parts that were pretty neat at the beginning, but then the story started to go in some bizarre directions. Directions that were unexpected to be sure, but unexpected because the 'obvious' direction for the plot to take would have seemed more interesting.
the end of part 1 had the potential to turn it into something interesting, but part 2 after the gap basically dropped the ball hard in almost all areas.
the story in part 2 made most of the events in part 1 have no consequence, after part 2 started, it felt like all the stakes of the show entirely evaporated, we were now just seeing stuff happening, no investment in what was going on.
It feels like the writers knew they were walking into common tropes, (which in itself isn't a bad thing) but they couldn't make up their mind between playing them so straight to the point of comedy (i.e. Egg's completely literal embodiment of emotionless self-insert MC shell) or trying to avoid the tropes and be different, but in so doing, choosing a blander and slightly shitty narrative arc to go down (i.e. when Sauzbaum kidnapps Slaine and kills Cruteo, and you think he's now going to pretend he's loyalist to trick Slain and have Code Geass style scheming shenanigans, but instead straight up tells Slain he's the bad guy next ep and blows the gig.)
>cast of teenagers >giant robots in space >autist gary stu MC >angsty rival >mcguffin space princess >cute Onee-chan figure >forgettable bad guys
There's probably more stuff, too. The plot is more or less predictable and the characters are one-dimensional. The point is that it's a pretty by-the-numbers anime. Not saying that it's awful -- just unexceptional.
It started off okay, but declined almost immediately. After the "misunderstanding" where they shot each other down immediately after helping each other was probably where it went beyond any chance of recovering.
>>13791947 >>13787446 >>13787432 Anon's got A.Z fanart at the ready, so he's clearly a deluded A.Z fag. Which is a bit surprising they still exist, because I was sure the final episode killed any positive will Inahofags had for the show after both slaine and inaho got tossed aside by the princess. Unless they were a Slainexinaho shipper. I guess they may have been cool with that.
>>13792395 So you don't know what a Mary Sue is. Because Inaho passes the test with flying colors. Being a Mary Sue isn't just being a self insert character it also is a character who is ridculously good at everything they do for no apparent reason. Is considered attractive or desireable by everyone they meet, and their behavior (no matter how groan inducing) is considered admirable by other characters (this can include the story bending over backwards so that they can get their way, even when they're wrong), and who is just all together incredibly unrealistic, and who is basically acts as a type of wish fulfillment character.
It's also not uncommon for Mary Sues to not really have a personality (in order to make it easier or people to self insert as them). All of this is basically fits Inaho to a T.
>>13793654 No he doesn't pass the test simply because he is the protagonist. A protagonist can't be a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is a character who hijacks a story to center around them instead of the main characters. The problem is we have had decades of idiots confusing the symptoms for the disease. What you are actually dealing with is an extreme version of the Competent Man trope.
>>13793792 Mary Sues are more a narrative problem than anything. Let me explain using literature's battered wife, Twilight.
As you read the saga, you will no doubt notice how the author tries to paint things in a certain light. Bella and Edward have this perfect relationship, Charlie is over-protective, Bella is pure as Lacus. It want's you to believe these things because that's the story it's trying to tell. But then you actually think or analyze the story, you don't see it that way. Bella/Edward is creepy as hell, Bella's a bitch to everyone around her and Charlie has every right to be worried about his daughter.
We can find examples of this all throughout /m/. Sometimes it's just a moment when you want someone to call out a character's bullshit, other times it's all the time. When a character has flaws that the show doesn't realize or wants the audience to think it isn't an issue. These are what makes a Sue, not just a simple matter of hijacking the story.
>>13784827 >I do feel bad for anyone who happened to self-insert as either of the protags only to have their princess taken away. Anybody autismal enough to do this deserves to be hurt. This includes you.
>>13793792 >A protagonist can't be a Mary Sue. >A Mary Sue is a character who hijacks a story to center around them instead of the main characters.
Wrong on both counts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue >"A Mary Sue for female characters and Gary Stu or Marty Stu for male characters is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities. Often this character is recognized as an author insert and/or wish-fulfillment"
>>13792395 >Saitama >Mary Sue But he has character flaws. Being absurdly OP doesn't make you a Mary Sue, being a perfect-in-every-way wish fullfillment fantasy does. Now, Max, Max is a Mary Sue done right.
>>13793870 Mary Sue is just a generic insult right now , because too many people today think they are writers and (too many) do fanfics, and since they they all think to be better, they become intolerant of other people characters, especially when they do something we do not like. In fiction, characters, both written by professionals, both by amateurs, are always reflections of the writer and as a result you always play at being God a little.
Some writers are better at keeping it under control. A hyper competent character with a huge weakness (something more serious than "relationship problems") already helps to make things more interesting.
>>13794283 Conan the Barbarian was a perfect Gary Stu, but nobody cared. The problem is only started when women began to do the same with their female characters ultra popular and superior to the other male Captains in Star Trek. The rest is just an internet meme.
>>13793654 I don't really consider Inaho a Mary Sue since he don't really hog more screentime than your usual MC. Slaine got more focus than him in S2. As for his perfectness, he was ridiculously competent in battle but he paid the price by having his eye hijacking at the finale. Failure to meet Asseylum again and have her end up with another man are enough of a failure in my book.
The problem is Inaho is boring. He pretty much just normal mecha MC except being expressionless. At first, him being nonchalant to everything is kinda interesting but he pretty much reduced to typical mecha MC as the show goes on.
>>13795590 Being a Mary Sue has nothing to do with screen time, it has everything to do with how the series treats the character.
Thinking about this seriously, what price did Inaho really pay? At the end of day the eye was removed at no cost against him and he just goes about living his life normally, his lost eye is just there to make make his character look cool. In fact, if anything him getting said robotic eye was more of of boon to him than anything else, as it was just another device that allowed him to bullshit his way through everything. Asshime was shit anyway and throughout the S2 it seemed like he was just losing interest in her anyway. So there is really isn't anything that you can say that he conceivably lost.
A Mary sue that is boring just means that the Mary Sue is boring. Most Mecha MC protagonists that are expressionless actually have reasons why they are the way they are, Inaho has none.
>>13795620 >Asshime was shit anyway and throughout the S2 it seemed like he was just losing interest in her anyway. So there is really isn't anything that you can say that he conceivably lost.
Inaho's entire motivation is meeting Asseylum again and even the robot eye also said Asseylum is Inaho's number 1 priority. Heck, he even saved Slaine just because Ass ask him that. Calling him losing interest in her is total bullshit.
He's simply a bad character with little characterization, almost no growth, and the show never told us something intimate, like his fears, desires or the reasons that led him to be so autistic.
He's undoubtedly OP in combat, but otherwise is not a character. He does not even reach basic level of a character. He's more like a "human-size Gundam Unicorn" , acting independently with the same magic shit power.
Mary Sue in the traditional sense refers to some outside guest character who, simply put, completely hijacks the main character spotlight from the actual main character (or cast spotlight from cast, you get the idea), as a result of bad writing that effectively bends the narrative backwards in the Sue's favor. Usually they function as a self insert of their creator, or some ideal that panders to the character creator, but what separates a Sue from a mere author self insert or any other run of the mill badly written character or badly written narrative is that the Sue is a foreign entity; that is to say, a true Sue only exists in either fanfic, adaptations, or any other environment where creative liberties can occur.
Mary Sue is more a sign that someone didn't actually give a fuck about the source material they were working with.
>>13795674 This, but the term can be useful to identify character that send the whole story out of control with their presence. For example, when an author falls too much in love with a character to point of support him in all circumstances.
>>13795649 That was one of his motivations, his other motivation was finding out about Slaine. Besides that at the end of the show, he doesn't at all give the impression that he giving a flying fuck about seeing her again.
>>13795674 >>13795702 >Mary Sue in the traditional sense refers to some outside guest character who, simply put, completely hijacks the main character spotlight from the actual main character (or cast spotlight from cast, you get the idea). That's actually incorrect. The term was actually created and used for protagonists. again see >>13794283. Word of advice don't take your definition from tv tropes.
A character who is infallible and who the narrative will bend over backwards to put in the right is a Mary Sue, regardless of the medium.
>>13795739 You're forgetting - lots of Mary Sues 'fuck up' to garner sympathy. In anything that ultimately matters they -are- infallible, but it's just as common to drag them through the mud a little first so you d'aww over the kicked puppy.
Or in Kira's case, it's a means to get a mid-season upgrade.
>>13795784 Which is why the term is flawed outside its fanfic origins. What some are quick to call a Sue is just nothing more than bad writing period, a failure of the writer to handle the artifice of their creation in a matter that makes sense and doesn't rely on cheap tricks to make them seem more down to earth than they really are.
Hypercompetence isn't bad writing per se, but bad writing can be made more obvious by misuse of a hypercompetent character. It's all in managing the artifice of the narrative.
>>13795813 Well the term was used to describe who is badly written, and a failure of the writer to properly insert a character into the world. Which is why the term ended up being used for canon characters as well.
Having a character who is hyper competent is fine, but having them be hyper competent for no reasoning for it, and then also not balancing it out with their other traits and then on top of that having them be infallible is not.
>>13795222 >Conan the Barbarian was a perfect Gary Stu
That's debatable. The film shows him being captured as a slave and being forced into physical labor where he got his massive gains. He was then sold for pit fighting and it showed that he wasn't very good at it and basically lucked out in his first match. He eventually gained enough experience to where he would be professionally trained as a warrior. When he was finally freed it showed that he wasn't able to do everything by himself and his operations largely hinge on the aide of his companions. That's not to say that Conan as a character wasn't subject to ridiculous amounts of plot armor (ie coming back from the dead and being saved by his ghost gf).
True Gary Stu/Mary Sue don't have a background of how they got to be so good at what they do (usually just being child prodigies) and can save the day all by themselves while other characters job for them.
>>13795801 No? He doesn't even have a character arc. Kira himself is a flawed character the problem is that he doesn't grow after SEED and the plot bend over backwards for him, nobody can call him out on it because the writing demands that he been seen as right unlike Kirito who has no character and changes at a whim in every arc and Inaho who's more of a plot device than anything else.
>>13795937 A plot device is someone who just exist to move the plot from one transition to another and doesn't have anything to do with the actual conflict, Kira ain't a plot device since he's a major player and sought after component in Destiny he just doesn't develop. Inaho mainly exists to get his party from one location to another or just to save the day at the last minute, he isn't an important component to the plot or has anything personal with the antagonist he exist just to move it forward and the best example of this is where he freed the count from prison and got no reprimands from it nor did anyone on board he had vendetta against the enemy say anything about it, he freed him so the plot could move.
>>13795955 Well Destiny is a direct sequel so the explanations from SEED still applies. The thing about Shinn is that he was never going to be right, no one really to bend over backwards to explain why what Durandal was doing was wrong. It's just that Kira and Lacus went about things the wrong way.
>>13795955 More or less. Kira was played up as skilled from the start, but in SEED it's mostly in the usual anime-protag-is-special-in-some-way vein. At least there, he was a Coordinator among normal humans, so it could be explained away as him being a nigh-literal Superman. And he struggled and strained the way most Gundam MCs have to, at least until he gets Freedom.
Thereafter, he's never really in danger unless it's a plot device. The druggies are only a threat to him at Orb to give Athrun his dilemma, thereafter they always get stomped, outrun, or run out of drugs. The only other time they manage to accomplish anything is when Kira's trying to catch Fllay's pod and it gets yanked away from him, and they manage to do some non-critical damage to Freedom.
In Destiny, he just flat out stomps everything until it's time to get his wings broken, strictly so Lacus can get him new ones. And his dominance is less excusable there because he's a coordinator among other coordinators but still schooling them like they were lowly naturals.
>>13795975 Not really since Kira is a completely different character in SEED he just doesn't grow or develop. Hell how Kira got that way is a direct result of his development in SEED so that's very hard to ignore.
>>13795886 >. Kira himself is a flawed character the problem is that he doesn't grow after SEED and the plot bend over backwards for him, nobody can call him out on it because the writing demands that he been seen as right
Right. Kira acts as the literal definition of a terrorist, uses illegal weaponry (a war crime IRL), antagonizes other factions with his actions (This gets called out a lot in crossover games), and his team's defense of Orb allowed Djibril to escape and kill thousands of civilians (while Kira and Co. commented about how horrible the event was, ignoring their hand in it's happening). And people still think Shinn should have joined forces with him to stop Durandal. The show acts like Kira's a super robot hero, completely unaware of the implications of his actions (and how self-righteous he sounds).
>>13795962 But Kira was the character who did move things forward. It was obvious from day one that Zaft was in the wrong, it was just more of a question of why the crew of Minerva never questioned some of the shit that was going on. Kira was just a means to an end, defeating the villains and making sure that they never won, the problem is that series went about it the wrong way, because the writing was shit. Hell originally people were expecting Kira to come in and school Shinn at some point in time, it was just implemented badly.
Compared to Inaho, with whom the creators gave no reason for being the ace and pilot and strategist, he's the best but he has no reason to be. On top of that, other characters had to be made incompetent just so that he could look good, even though again he has no reason for being better than them. Inaho's abilities were there solely to make him look good, he does stupid shit but is never once reprimanded for it. The only reason why Inaho is necessary is because other characters are incompetent and they're incompetent just so that he could be necessary, that's the hallmark of a Mary Sue.
I agree. In SEED he had his self-doubt, his fucked up romance with Flay, he was an ass to Sai, he killed Nicol (fuck you remaster he didn't fell on the sword) and was extremely enraged towards Athrun besides many other failures. Even after he got the Freedom and he started his beyond good and evil phase he still got mind raped near the end by Le Creuset.
In Destiny however he's just a flat character with very little doubt who's completely op and just descends in the Freedom from time to time to deliver justice and wisdom.
Destiny Kira is a clear example of a Gary Stu and I rooted for Shinn.
>>13796049 >Well no... at the beginning of the story there are rivalries between enemy nations who have not resolved. Which anyone with half a brain could have predicted would have lead to Zaft doing stupid shit. It became somewhat obvious that Djibril was up to some shady shit.
>>13796078 It is not a point, the war always leads to stupid things for win. The Requiem cannon is quietly the same thing of an atomic bomb. Who wins then writes the story. I do not care to enter into a discourse of philosophy and war, but Destiny show the implications of morality, war and power in a so terribly superficial way.
>>13796109 I'm not trying to argue which side was right, both sides were wrong and that's wrong, such is war. Archangel was supposed to be the third party that the viewers rooted for. Now there is a lot wrong with Destiny, part of what makes SRW take on it so well liked is that it acknowledges the poor implementation of the story and then attempts to fix it.
>>13796109 Just like how SEED wanted to make an anti-war message but in the end resorted to making everyone into cartoonish villains.
I've heard people say that SEED had a stronger anti-war message than 0079, but 0079 remembered that soldiers are people. They are people with family, friends and loved ones who are fighting for what they believe in. When the genre was jam packed full of faceless minions, Tomino made the enemies human. SEED dehumanizes soldiers, depicting them like people on COD Multiplayer. And when people are dehumanized in such ways, it's easier to justify killing them. Like, how much sympathy would we have for someone in a Stormtrooper uniform?
SEED wants to have an anti-war message, how we should never fight according to one producer, but Fukuda also wants to have super robot heroics. It ultimately makes the overall moral of the show rather shallow and naive. Then we have Destiny doubling down on it.
>>13795590 >I don't really consider Inaho a Mary Sue since he don't really hog more screentime than your usual MC.
It doesn't matter if a Mary Sue gets less screen time. Typical stories with Mary Sues often have them as MCs because they're self-inserts which people want to be. But being the MC is not necessary and they can be supporting characters as well. The common trait that Mary Sues all have is their unrealistic abilities.
>>13783958 I dunno, it was disappointing because I thought it would be awesome and it was bad, But I liked it better than a lot of other bad recent shows like IBO even. Tbh I liked the visuals and music enough to ignore how bad it was, it was just a little disappointing cause it had more potential like old Gundam Seed fans say. I still don't get why it made /m/ so butthurt though since it wasn't THAT bad. At least there was no stock footage in the fights and the people didn't look like garbage.
>>13798420 >Tbh I liked the visuals and music enough to ignore how bad it was Either people are really deluded or they have bad taste because there was nothing impressive about the visuals or soundtrack infact they were dealt with just as much criticism as the script and characters. >it was just a little disappointing cause it had more potential like old Gundam Seed fans say. Potential? The show was a wreck from the first episode onward and you just like other dumbasses got caught up in the spectacle.
>I still don't get why it made /m/ so butthurt though since it wasn't THAT bad /m/ wanted this shit to crash and burn so nobody here is butthurt about and yes it was THAT bad, I don't see why there's people still going on about this unless it was their first mecha anime or they're sustained from thinking anything can be bad.
>At least there was no stock footage in the fights and the people didn't look like garbage. Yeah instead you had bad cg, boring battles and shitty characters with baby faces.
>>13801443 >Either people are really deluded or they have bad taste because there was nothing impressive about the visuals or soundtrack infact they were dealt with just as much criticism as the script and characters. I didn't say it was impressive, just I liked it. Compared to many anime that look like shit.
>>13798743 >>13801458 >>13801458 GReco was also preferred amongst the Nip mechafags, and was more talked about too. So yeah, A/Z pretty much failed to overtake Gundam in most if not all categories. It's to the point now that the only people really supporting A/Z now are fujos (they lost the otomefags with that ending), which is why 24.5 exists, it's for damage control, even the Nips were treating Asshime as though she was the main villain all along.
>>13806325 You mean casuals? Yep hence its low nico average and it not making it to 2ch's top 50 anime of 2015 (A/Z was #40) so while general audiences didn't like it it did well among hardcore groups and older audience hence its high ratings for the block it aired on and stronger fanfare than Turn A initially.
>>13806325 >Wasn't G-Reco not popular with non-mecha otaku? Yes and no, there was certainly a lot of fanfare when it was going to air, it just didn't live up to expectations that people had for it. Something to understand, Gundam is practically a household name in Japan. So people already knew about GReco just because of it, and were upset about it not living to their expectations. While with A/Z they were fine with just dropping it and moving on. So based off of that I can't say that A/Z more popular because it wasn't as well known, despite Aniplex throwing all their money into it.
But if you want to say that more casuals and fujos liked AZ, then that is true, but it doesn't mean anything since they didn't like it enough to really spend money on it. There's a reason why all the merchandise for the show is really just based around one character.
>>13816902 >mankind evolving psychic powers to meet the requirements of the environment of space >genetic tampering to increase speed, strength, durability, reflexes, and IQ These are not the same thing, anon. They even had actual newtypes in SEED so you can see the comparison. Mwu, Rau, Rey, and eventually Kira were newtypes, everyone else was super-soldiers.
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