So why hasn't Legend of the Galactic Heroes been accused as being pro-fascist or objectivist since it completely buys into the Great Man Theory of history and how only heroic visionary white men who are despised by their inferiors can save the masses from war, corruption and fanaticism.
I'm pretty sure it has been
but the show itself goes into great lengths how "great men" in history can be complete and total bastards who ruin everything, as well as the fact that even an honest, well-meaning dictator is only a good thing for as long as that one dictator's lifespan lasts, and that government should be something that ideally is able to function in the interest of the people even without a golden ubermensch calling all the shots
but then again, it also goes into great detail about how the way things should be and the way things tend not to match up
I seriously hope that the image spammer, valverager, the guy who hates getter, snapfag and now this sjw faggot making all these threads are all the same person.
Just for the small chance that he might die and then this will all be over
>So why hasn't Legend of the Galactic Heroes been accused as being pro-fascist
I'm pretty sure people have been claiming the author is pro-authoritarian for decades now. It's actually kinda hard to argue otherwise to some extent.
Because it shows all the ways it can go wrong, and the fact that even with a great leader, there'll still be things that can screw that up?
Sometimes, a single ruler with a great vision is needed, but most of the time,
Also, remember than Lohengramm was not alone, and arguably Kircheis was the person who built him into such a great man.
it's not some kind of white dudes only thing either
>another OP that didn't pay attention while watching LOGH
What didn't you understand that people like Reinhard are extremely rare. For every good tyrant/emperor/king there is at least twenty or fifty terrible ones. Plus Reinhard wasn't alone, he had Kircheis and his many great generals.
If you were paying attention the series shows the inherit pros and cons of a republic and a monarchy. The FPA showed a republic at its worst and the Empire under Reinhard depicts a Authoritarian government at its best.
Imo LoGH argued that democracy is just another way of government and not the almost mythological ideal that it is today and that, under certain circumstances, autoritarisms can be even better.
However it also showed that a democracy, tempered with republican institutions, is the lesser evil in the long run because that autoritarism rellies entirely on the virtue of the ruler and you just need one bad guy to ruin everything.
As it has been stated, LoGH pretty extensively examples the good and bad of both methods of governance. Characters pretty extensively criticize basically everything that happens in LoGH as well, which is part of the beauty of the series.
Because it isn't pro-fascist, it's balanced with Yang's democracy wank.
>Heroic visionary white men who are despised by their inferiors
You mean loved by his inferiors, he was very popular. Like incredibly so. If anything it's people who think themselves superior (I.e. the nobles) who despise him.
I'm too tired to write a cohesive comment ... so:
muh Plato's governments
muh Enlightened despotism
muh Yang best character
muh Constitutional monarchy and Popular sovereignty
If anyone Rudolf was a fascist.
Also the Vatican-Illuminati-Jew-Isis church was very cartoonishly evil. At least Machiavelli had some subtlety when poking fun at the papal state.
Terraist Church, sure, but Trunicht? There are politicians that really don't care about their government, and would switch in a heartbeat.
Even Rubinsky (in the first half, at least) is pretty competent.
Is English not your first language or something? Even if I assume you're trying to go for some elaborate metaphor most of Reinhard's battles have little to do with directly overturning ideology.
Yang is Chinese or some shit.
Does that sound like a white guy's name?
And jesus man, it's like you only watched half of the show. A huge aspect is the benefits that the tenets of democracy provide a society.
And fuck off with your marxist history bullshit.
Great men HAVE shaped world history.
Without the existence of people like Napoleon, Bismarck, FDR, Charlemagne, and Alexander history would look very different.
It's people that give them power sure, but's it's they that use it correctly.
>Yang is Chinese or some shit.
>Does that sound like a white guy's name?
When it comes to measuring diversity, Asians can count as white people. Diversity is a poor measure of a show anyways.
>The Terraist Church
Gee, if only there was some modern day equivalent to a terrorist organization run by religious fanatics.
Oh well, I guess The Terraist Church is such a totally wacky idea that has no basis in history!.
because it isn't, it just shows the faults and gains of each government.
The Reinhard Dynasty looked better because people had to shut up and do what they were told while under a 1:1000 style of dictatorship. FPA allowed everyone to be free however at the same time progress was slowed and corruption ran deep
The modern Tumblr Audience has better things to do then attack a classic like LoGH. And by better things I mean bitch about mai diversity in western shows. Anime is safe for now.
>the guy who hates getter
It's not just Getter I hate, it's the entirety of DP works, though Getter is a very easy target.
Anyway, that would be me, and I can confirm that I'm not OP nor any of the other people you mentioned. Tough break on your part.
First of all, that's a small part of the internet, let alone that site, that you're complaining about. Second of all, why not talk about this somewhere else, and stick to the more relevant issues in this thread?
Because it also shows space white germans as nazis in the back history , white german aristocrat nuking planet in civil war, bunch of soldiers heroically fighting for their ideals of democracy and achieving their goal after landing on the emprah's ship, empire having fits of civil war whether be Goldenbaum or Lohengram.
As a white german reactionary, it offends me and rich history of the land.
Show hammers down the point that ultimately it is the person with the certain type of character and personality present at that particular moment in history is what shapes the circumstances and consequences rather than engaging into nativities of viewing human history into simple colors of black and white.
If you have paid a single iota of attention and know the "showing things " style, despite what being said it perfectly shows how it was a team rather than a single man who did all the job and how losing their respective comrades did affected them personally ,which historians years later cannot perceive due to lack of records or witnesses.
My only complaint with the show is they didin;t used that shot of pillar in desert or other historical ruins while narrator pondered upon the hubris in human history.
>government should be something that ideally is able to function in the interest of the people
Take your liberal hippie agenda back to tumblr.
Because LOGH can do no wrong, it's the "I love Ghibli!" of scifi anime, that and Akira.
The Terraist church to me always seemed like a shrunk down version of the same shit that Reinhard and Yang were always complaining abot; a couple of privileged jerks using people as disposable tools from a distance while watching and hoping to improve their personal situation
The only thing that's kinda eye-roll-y about it is that their krazy kult was able to insinuate itself well enough to do the kind of damage it managed to
Akira is a quasi-nonsensical smorgasboard of sweet 80s animation, the punk rock counterpart to the Ghost in the Shell movie's cold techno visual spectacle
Unless you're talking about the manga, which is like, a pretty good manga about a bunch of dumbass kids in a dystopian future that quickly becomes post apocalyptic
The point that anon missed is that Ghibli isn't bad, nor is Akira 'bad'. It's the fact that series like LOGH are the ultimate safe answers. You're not going to tell people you liked some moeshit mech anime even though you love it, you'll tell them your favorite scifi anime is LOGH or GiTS. People can't judge you for your taste and hurt your feelings even if they aren't really your favorite series.
I dunno, I love LOGH but it's not a series I can really recommend to most people due to the fact that it's like... a sci-fi fictional historical documentary soap opera.
You have to be a particular brand of weirdo to enjoy something like that. It's literally nothing but talking heads and capital ship battles set to classical music.
>You're not going to tell people you liked some moeshit mech anime even though you love it
I would though. If I'm talking to someone about this stuff, they already know the kind of person I am, and the fact that I like something like that would be no surprise them, and neither would the fact that I like something "highbrow" like LoGH.
There's kind of a fault in your logic, the only place people will bully you for your taste in anime is 4chan, but at the same time it's the place that will shit on LoGH to be contrarian.
The thing is, if you tell someone you know you like mecha anime, are you going to say Patlabor or something like Horizon. Most would say Patlabor or some other show that if you google it people go "Oh this is a highbrow anime, this fellow has good taste and isn't a creep" They google Horizon and their perspective is very different. People who don't want to be judged will say stuff like Patlabor, GiTS, LoGH, what have you. Even fanservicey but universally recoginized 'good' anime like Gurren Lagann. You might, but not most. I don't think everyone thinks LoGH is their favorite scifi anime but enough say it is because it's considered high brow and safe.
Anon I don't normally browse here but the only mecha I've seen are those 'highbrow' listed itt, Patlabor, LOGH, GITS also Akira but not Gurren lagann.
Am I doing something wrong
I started getting into it after reading shirow's manga
You didn't even read my post, the only place people will bully you for your taste is 4chan, at least in my admittedly narrow experience. It is definitely bitter. I didn't say 4chan is the only place for discussion
>You have to be a particular brand of weirdo to enjoy something like that.
Well that explains my lack of friends and charisma among masses.
/pol/ actually thinks that way.
You can go to any forum that talks about anime, and people will bash you for your taste for whatever is the dominant proper way to be a fan is. ANN being the most extreme of this.
4chan isn't the only one to do this, but it is a melting pot of all kinds of tastes that clash. But here people will trash on LOGH only to be contrarian, whereas with other shows that are maybe more fanservicey, they might have some kind of gripe with the show.
People don't like shows like LOGH because it's highbrow, they're lying to themselves if they do, they like it because it scratches a particular itch. No one ever likes a show because it's quantifiably 'perfect'. People just say LOGH is my favorite because they don't want to be judged by strangers on the internet for having shit taste.
None of your armchair sociology/psychology/whatever matters. It doesn't change the fact that your argument is based entirely around one assumption that you have no way of verifying.
Try reading again, then responding, because right now you're just talking jibberish.
I dunno, you say you can get bashed anywhere, go to /r/anime and say I like 'x'. Really go anywhere which has rules about being polite, I can't imagine you'll bashed for just saying "I like Diebuster".
>That whole third line
I kind of don't get the flow here. First you're saying something totally obvious, like it's unnecessary. And then there's the reiteration of your original point, which i don't know what it has to do with the first half of the line. Or really anything to do with my post in the first place, seeing as i wasn't really arguing that. I'm only saying that LoGH is "safe" in safe places
That's silly, though. I love stuff like Symphogear for the action, yet also love LoGH for the whole history lesson vibe. If anything, LoGH is different enough that it'd be hard to recommend to some.
Discuss scifi on ANN and say you liked Horizon or Vividred or whatever is considered 'trashy' anime and see what happens. Maybe /m/ is safe, but because the nature of the board being open, it invites a lot of different mindsets and some people have the trashy anime mindset and come here to complain about trashy shows ruining proper shows like LOGH.
Horizon doesn't really belong in that category, though. It's a legitimately good story that happens to be deliberately hidden behind a "trashy" facade for comedic effect. It doesn't deserve to be compared to things like Vividred (which I enjoyed a lot, but I have to admit that it was indeed pretty trashy).
Also, S3 never. At least the novel translations are still coming along last I checked.
I wasn't directly comparing the two.
I do think Horizon's facade is a blessing. It to me dispells the notion that fanservice and good story are mutually exclusive. The fanservice also acts like wolfsbane to the overly sensitive who dismiss it outright and can't look beyond skin deep.
I hate to break it to you, but you really aren't a smart as you think you are. Perhaps you should re-read your own post first.
Not him, but you don't know the context of "People just say LOGH is my favorite because they don't want to be judged by strangers on the internet for having shit taste.", I can understand how you'd think that he's saying nobody actaully likes LoGH, but that's not what he's saying. He's saying that LoGH is used as a safe answer when someone isn't secure in answering the question of their favourite anime.
Can you tell me what you are placing your entire argument on? You keep saying that LoGH is a safe answer and acting like everyone has seen it. On the contrary, when /m/ did a big poll back in 2010 less than 30% of people had even seen Logh, and given the influx of newfags on /m/ I would say that number is even smaller now.
Basically you are saying people wont say Horizon is their favorite anime because of the fanservice, while completely ignoring the fact that GitS has a half naked woman for the main character that routinely wears skin tight suits. I'm not even going to touch on the fact that disliking a show because of moeshit/fanservice/presentation is completely acceptable given that it is all taste to being with.
To be honest you just sound bitter that no one appreciates Horizon as much as you do. Speaking of being contrarian..........
GiTS has tasteful nudity, Horizon has women with beach ball boobs that make a boing sound when they move.
If you tell your average GiTS fan that Shirow Masamune's guilty pleasure is drawing bestiality you're probably going to blow their minds. Whereas with Horizon, that fanbase would typically have been desensitized to things like that already.
>Not him, but you don't know the context of "People just say LOGH is my favorite because they don't want to be judged by strangers on the internet for having shit taste."
Because I have never ever seen this happen, and yet he expects me to just take his word on it? He has yet to provide any evidence to support his claim. It's just him stating his assumption as a fact with nothing to back it up. It's extremely narcissistic.
>he's saying. He's saying that LoGH is used as a safe answer
That makes no sense given how out of the mainstream LoGH is. A "safe" answer would be something like Cowboy Bebop. Something even non-anime watchers have seen.
>when someone isn't secure in answering the question of their favourite anime.
Yes because the same fandom that is know for producing the most amount of cringe, second only to the furry community, totally cares about being looked down upon by others? There is a reason the anime fandom is widely considered autistic. You don't dress up like Vash and go to an anime convention when you are 300lbs if you care about what others are going to think of you. It's like saying "you will say Bible Black is your favorite hentai because it is the"safe" answer", completely oblivious to the fact that there is no "safe" answer.
You mean where Major gets up out of her bed and there's a woman in it? There's no sex depicted, if it was strongly implied than even Adult Swim would have cut it when it was in US syndication. It's only very strongly implied she fucks women.
>and acting like everyone has seen it
No, he's acting like everyone knows of LoGH's reputation. Which is true for anyone who has lurked for a few months.
>Basically what he's saying is some dumb shit
No what he's saying is Horizon has a reputation that makes it easy to pick on, but GitS has a reputation which makes it difficult to shit on without being shit on yourself. Horizon is unsafe, GitS is safe.
>bitter that no one appreciates Horizon as much as you do
He didn't bring up horizon until halfway through the argument though, therefore this entire argument couldn't possibly be caused by just bitterness
stop being a fucking faggot, holy shit.
>I have never seen this happen
Well of course, how could you? You can see someone say that LoGh is their favourite, but you can't see the reasons why someone says that. Not online anyway.
>Makes no sense given how out of the mainstream LoGH is
Actually it makes perfect sense, people who do know of LoGH's reputation would find difficulty shitting on the person, and people who are totally unaware of LoGH wouldn't know how to shit on the person in the first place.
>anime fans totally care what others think
Yeah they kind of do, that's why you have MAL, 3x3 threads and other kinds of faggotry. By kind of I mean some people do, just like some people are 300lbs and still dress up as Vash at the local anime con. Some people give a fuck some people don't.
>most diversity polls use Hitler's classification and justification of asians as 'honorary whites' during WWII.
There was a thread on here a while ago where someone was talking about "old /pol/" and how it was full of "austrofascists" and "monarchists" who would have loved LoGH. I don't know enough about /pol/ either now or back then to say whether that's true or not, but it was the argument.
I would say LoGH is a "Great Man" sort of thing, but I'd say that's due to the fact that it started out as a novel and then an anime. You need compelling characters to keep a reader or watcher's interest, which leads the narrative to revolve around them and make them more important in its scheme than impersonal social forces, no matter how large.
That said, anti-racism is a point LoGH makes most fervently, as I often say. Does anybody have that screencap of Reinhard's speech from the Gaiden where he says genes matter less than individual ambition and people are proud of their ancestry when they have nothing else they've accomplished? That was great but I seem to have misplaced it.
Having been around anime circles of all kinds, both in real life situations and on the internet...
My love of LoGH has never made me "popular" in and of itself. I've seen more people get laid by hot women after taking them to a hentai panel than I ever have by saying "I'm a man/woman of superior intellectual tastes". Many fans and friends of mine, both male and female, tell me they just don't have the patience for the show. And that's okay. It really does require a specific mentality when you go into it.
In short, your argument is grade A bullshit. Many of the most popular shows within wider fandom are actually quite moe/fanservicey/light affairs. And these are ironically very popular with both genders.
While it was never my claim (i'm just defending it because the other guy was being a total idiot), it's not so unreasonable a claim. It's pretty easy to accept that somebody who cares what others think would give safe answers to questions. If you can accept that, you can accept that LoGH could be given as a safe answer.
Now here's the tricky thing, go back and see everything the guy said. I'll boil it down so you feel motivated to check
>Series like LoGH are the ultimate safe answers
That's the initial claim
>Most people will go for safe answers
This is the one i have trouble with, as it's highly contextual and unverifiable.
>People just say LOGH is my favorite because they don't want to be judged by strangers on the internet for having shit taste.
Here's the line which you're focusing too heavily on, if you'd read his previous posts you would see he didn't literally mean that all "LoGH fans" are just people hiding behind it's reputation, what he's saying is that there are some who use the reputation as taste shield. And this is a little more verifiable, as i do recall discussions in 3x3 threads where people were discussing the matter of people using safe spots to make their 3x3 look better.
He's talking about a safe answer, not an answer which guarantees pussy, there's a difference. Safe answers aren't necessarily for gaining popularity, but rather for avoiding insult
Oh, ok then. Sorry, for all this then, it's just i would never assume someone would try to argue such a difficult point. In that case sure nobody has any evidence either way, all you can do is express doubt to his claim, and all i can say is that i think it's pretty reasonable. I mean, do you really think that nobody has used LoGH's reputation to secure themselves in a given situation? Not one person ever? As i said, i can guarantee that I've seen that kind of cancer in 3x3 threads before. No i don't have any screencaps handy.
>I mean, do you really think that nobody has used LoGH's reputation to secure themselves in a given situation?
Not literally never. But we all have zero way of knowing if this is anything more than an occasional phenomenon in 3x3 threads.
whatever you like to call it, that's just another way of saying that there are some who use the reputation as a taste shield which is what I've been saying.
It's worth pointing out that I wasn't focusing much on your point, i just didn't like the arguments presented >>13773009 and >>13772982
>since it completely buys into the Great Man Theory of history
>It's a romanticized wank about how great Napoleon and enlightened despotism is.
Jesus, fuck. Don't you people know a goddamn thing about history? The clearest template for Reinhard is Frederick II the Great. His rule is the reason Immanuel Kant wrote "What is Enlightenment?".
And you, OP,
>heroic visionary white men
You sound like a fucking Tumblerina. Quit it if you don't want people to take you for bait.
>genes matter less than individual ambition and people are proud of their ancestry when they have nothing else they've accomplished
Genes actually are important though. That's why non-whites have lower IQ's, their countries are in shambles and they don't invent anything. Even in white people genes contribute to problems like low intelligence and mental illness.
The relation between genes and cognition is still hazy. You have lots of people who are highly specifically capable with genes that leave them a bit functionally shitty in other aspects, for instance.
The amount that your genes define what kind of shit you get up to in life is still up in the air still, but it's pretty easy to see what money, safety, and opportunity do provide. Those people I mentioned who are able to become crazy engineers or programmers or artists in countries with enough social safety nets and opportunities would probably be doomed in a places without them.
Then why are blacks, even with affirmative action and lowering standards for their low test scores, still living in poverty in western and their own countries? The poorest whites have higher SAT scores than the richest blacks.
It's mostly education. If you go to shit schools from an early age, you will be dumber than everyone else. It's how the brain works. Blacks that immigrate from other countries (Africa, Latin America, whatever) are generally middle class and are actually educated by contrast.