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Will we ever again see a /m/ show where the...
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Will we ever again see a /m/ show where the main concept is Fighter Jets that turn into Mecha?

Or does Macross have have a monopoly on that?
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>>13745382
Getter. They transform through combining, but it counts. Alternatively yes, you would get people shouting ripoff
>>
Astroplan
Gundam 00 has one design
Transformers
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>>13745434
>Astroplan

You mean the straight up Macross with Chinese
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>>13745382
Is that a Saab Griepen?
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>>13745382
Mospeada
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>>13745382

It could be done, but like >>13745399 said, everyone would call it a copy cat, even if there were no idols singing.
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Robotech ;)
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>>13745851

epic
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>>13745660

It's still SDF, so it's basically Macross
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>>13748759
>>13745851
Carl Macek please go
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>>13745382

Fuck Mecha-Jets, I doubt we'll ever again see an Anime about fighter jets in general.

Last one I can remember that wasn't Macross was Airbats and that was almost two decades ago.
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>>13749361

but there was yukikaze
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>>13749379

Who the fuck watched/remembers Yukikaze
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>>13749383
People who like the topic in question.
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>>13749361
Hey now, Area 88 got a remake ONE decade ago.
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>>13749383
>bitches about lack of fighter jet anime
>can't be arsed to remember Yukikaze
>can't even be arsed to remember Area 88 TV, even if only to bitch about it

EXCUSES

ALL I'M HEARING ARE EXCUSES

There was also Stratos 4 which while not exactly great, or even about fighter jets per se (meteor fragment interception, technically a different matter from air superiority), still had jets blowing shit up.

And not just any jets, but TSR-2s!

But it's still kinda stupid and dumb and very early-00's digital animation and yeah... but hey, TSR-2s!
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>>13749430
>TSR2
Ah yes, a classic plane that almost was.
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>>13749438
Is that from an Ace Combat game? Fuck, I'm suprised pic related ain't in those.
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>>13745382

I would say no just because of the way air warfare is going, the F-35 has gotten rid of a lot of fighter diversity and drones are an ever increasing percentage of the force, there just isn't enough love for jets as a result
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>>13750020
>yfw Dos Gringos are right
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e9EDf5WVQ0
I'd totally an anime about human mecha pilots getting supplanted by drones and warbots.
>>
>>13750020
As much as the F-35 helps to homogenize fleets for flexibility, I have my doubts it'll put the dedicated air superiority plane out of a job, what with having to keep Russia's Sukhoishit in check and all.

The Raptor is already kinda an old decrepit shit flying on 80's-90's avionics, and while that's overkill against nearly any threat in existence, it's still old and easily outdone by the slavs.

Always gotta stay a step ahead of the slavs.

Plus the Chinks look like they're speccing in fast interception with that one bigass jet of theirs so a next gen long range fighter should still be up for planning.

That said, considering the F-35 is, all things considered, a straight up flying computer that networks with its own kind, there's plenty of sci fi / technothriller material to work with in there. Drones have it similarly as well what with the inherent detachedness of their operation, but Lightnings are like a stone's throw away from getting all cyberpunky in the skies.
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>>13750175
>The Raptor is already kinda an old decrepit shit flying on 80's-90's avionics, and while that's overkill against nearly any threat in existence, it's still old and easily outdone by the slavs.
>>
>>13750183
IT RUNS ON ADA

FUCKING
ADA
>>
>>13750175

all the techno gizmos and shit can be added to any plane as macross showed

the problem is the love is missing
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>>13750214
Oh if only that were true IRL.

If only you could slap any arbitrary newer engine into any old F-15 airframe and become speed itself.
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>>13745382
Jets are old and busted, I want a show with transforming helicopters.
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>>13750020
>the F-35 has gotten rid of a lot of fighter diversity

Except it really hasn't. USAF still going to be flying F-15Cs and Es until they drop out of the sky, F-22 not going anywhere anytime soon, A-10 no longer being retired, even the F-16 will be around until 2030. The Navy was already heading towards homogenization before the F-35, and signs are showing that they wont even go through with adopting it. That just least the muhreens who never had fighter diversity to begin with.
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>>13750232
>If only you could slap any arbitrary newer engine into any old F-15 airframe and become speed itself.

You called?

Dokdo is Korean, Japs go home
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>>13750309
The C-Eagle should be long dead, and this is coming from an Eagle lover. The mudhens have a very legitimate point in sticking around since they can haul ordinance too heavy for a Lightning, not to mention they are no slouch in a dogfight when push comes to shove.

The F-22 is obviously a must-keep.

The A-10 is honestly a meme plane these days, it's a great loiterer and it fucks Hajji up pretty well but it's really just a competitor against AH-64s for CAS work.

The F-16 is the one that should really have the nails pounded in its coffin within a few years, since the F-35A is kinda the successor to it in the multirole bird department much like the Raptor took the air superiority mantle from the Eagle. Though, things are complicated by the Viper being far better off in its lifespan right now than the C-Eagle was when the Raptor rolled out, there's always some new block revision whenever things are looking dull for it.

Also christ Lockheed Martin owns the Viper, they could fuck over whomever they want to shill the F-35 in its place.
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>>13750114

Can't fight the Ghost Rider, man.
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>>13745547
Eurofighter
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>>13750114
This has always bugged me. You'd think that'd be the natural evolution of tech in any military sci-fi setting, mecha being no exception.

I guess a character's piloting skill is just too much of a convenient way to identify them. Deep down, we all love drooling over power rankings.
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>>13749430
There's also Najica Blitz tactics and Agent Aika. Sure, the jets weren't a main features, but when they appeared, they were done surprisingly well.
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>>13750213
And most Russian planes still run on vacuum tubes, I'm sure.
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>>13750114
>>13751747
Well, Gundam Wing actually did involve that; Treize's firm belief in the importance of human soldiers was part of what made him compelling.
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>>13750309
Why the fuck do the Marines need fighter jets, anyway? To escort their transports? Why not just ask the Air Force to do it?
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>>13751991
To coordinate with shore assaults.

Also try asking a muhreen that and watch him lose his shit.
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>>13751997
But... why not just ask the Air Force to help out with shore assaults?
I don't get it. Don't all the different branches of the military work together?
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>>13751999
The Air Force wants nothing to do with it.
Ground attack is a peasants game and they'll sooner see it spun off to the army than take a single buck away from the goal of developing their next stealth fighter.
Every service has had to find its own stopgap measures.
>>
>>13752008
I dunno man, that seems kinda wasteful.
It sounds like they could save a lot of time and money if they all just worked together instead of duplicating capabilities across different organizations.
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>>13752019
Such is the nature of bureaucracy, anon.
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>>13752019
Oh, it's even worse than that.
The airforce regularly interferes in. The acquisitions of other services, because they don't want anyone stepping anywhere near their turf.

Programs like the Mohawk and Comanche were actively sabotaged by the airforce, and the key west agreement keeps the military from using more appropriate fixed wing.

They had things like sensor fusion ready decades ago. The Air Force is still stumbling to make it work.
Watch in amazement as the s-97 dies a similarly mysterious death.
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>>13750309

I mean modern fighter diversity, the kind that would get people excited about a new jet show, not just the designs that have been around since the 70's/80's
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>>13752074
The program Ruined the US fighter industry, but it was a boon to foreign made weapon systems.
Most of our allies simply can't afford and don't need stealth jets.

There's going to be plenty of diversity, but not America.
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>>13751999
There's a lot of interservice rivalry.

Also the Marines, being the first feet on the ground and all, operate as a microcosm of the US Military's Land-Sea-Air power. They cover aspects of the three core branches in advance of those branches moving in and taking up position once a foot gets stuck in the door.
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>>13751750

>that webm
>"surprisingly well"

What?
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>>13749430
>ELLIPSE
I honestly can't remember the last time I saw you. Am I blind or has it been that long?
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>>13751629

Is there a back panel missing? There seems to be a lot of exposed innards.
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>>13756891
Considering the sunlight shining in, I'd say that it's a picture of the cockpit by itself, not installed in the fuselage.
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>>13755211
Surprisingly well for a low budget ryona etch a sketch series from the early 2000's.
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>>13755304
dude hes been alive every single yukikaze thread.
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>>13745382

Fighter Jets that transform into humanoid mecha is a pretty unique concept. I don't think you could realistically expect to do something with it and not be called a Macross copycat.

Now, legally I'm sure that you could change enough that you wouldn't have any copyright issues, but that's not what we're really discussing here, is it?
>>
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The series and OAV special of KISS-DUM has, as a periodic background action feature, variaform fighter jets in combat. (Pic related)
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Sousei Kitan Aerial anime when?
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>>13751590

Is this a shop or did they actually rewire a manned jet to be unmanned?

Why?

Surely it'd be more efficient to just make an unmanned jet with no cockpit and life-support systems?
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>>13759160
A testing platform, maybe?
I mean, reusing existing hardware rather than having to build new hardware.
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>>13758811
Weren't all those planes destroyed in episode 2 when the show was retooled?
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>>13759160
>>13759926
It's the new target drone they have to replace the QF-4.
http://www.fencecheck.com/content/index.php?title=The_Final_Mission:_The_USAF%92s_QF-4_Target_Drones

They're basically rewiring all the really old F-16 airframes for weapons qualification targets. Sad, but such is life as a war machine.
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>>13760087
There's a point where the airframe has so many hours clocked in that it's just not safe to fly period, and if you're gonna scrap it you might as well give it a viking funeral.

Even in its twilight hours, a QF still serves.
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>>13759160
>>13759926
You people have seriously never heard of target drones?

They did it before with the F-4, F-102, F-104, and F-106.
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>>13752068

The Comanche, while an amazing piece of technology, was pointless in a Post-Cold War world.

Am I sad that we'll never again see it at an air show? Of course.

Am I glad that we're not wasting tax dollars on a vehicle which does nothing other systems can't do? You bet your ass.
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>>13760087
>>13760096
Well, at least its last hours are spent flying and not scrapped in a scrapyard.
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>>13745382

The problem with fighter jets that turn into mecha has always been "Why the fuck would a pilot willingly give up the advantages of being a fighter jet to become a grunt on the ground."

Macross has found the answer to this in having giant aliens with ships that require mecha to assault. So a VF can not only fight its way to the enemy, but it can then assault the enemy in their own ship.

Any other show wanting to do Fighter Jets to Mecha would also have to come up with an answer, to which I'm not sure there is any. So, they'd have to copy the giant aliens thing, then they're basically copying the entire series, then its lie, what's the point?
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>>13763600

It belongs in a museum
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>>13763963
If they explained it in a way similar to Gundam with having more mobility with thrusters on limbs when in space yadda yadda it could maybe work.
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>>13750114
>>13750020
>>13751747
>>13751762
>>13751629
>>13751590

You guys should read and watch Yukikaze. It covers exactly this topic.
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>>13745382
Slightly more likely than Eurofighter finding a new buyer.

Makes it about slightly below 1% probability.
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>>13765648
More that it covers that topic as a consequence of its main topic on the meaning of what it is to be human.

But Yukikaze is a wild ride like that!
>>
After AGE, how long do you think it will be before we get a transformable MC Gundam?
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>>13751991
The Marines' whole schtick is that they have land, air, and sea assets under one command structure which, in theory, allows them to get things done more quickly.
A unified amphibious strike force that can take care of itself. Of course they still need the Navy for transportation. My Ass Rides In Navy Equipment.
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>>13765749
Yeah, but why do they need fighter jets.
If they ask the Navy for transportation, couldn't they ask the Air Force for escort?
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>>13766253

CAN'T TRUST NO ONE BUT MUH FELLOW DEVIL DOGS
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>>13766274
>not trusting your fellow American servicemen
What a bunch of assholes.
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>>13766285

On the service, it's to create the shortest chain of communication between the Infantryman and the assets supporting him.

And while it does do that, it allows just allows the Navy to fight for a bigger slice of the military budget pie.
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>>13766253
AF is too slow.

Also Marines have no choice but to be shipped around with the Navy. There was no asking, it's how their deployment works.
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>>13745382
Zeta Gundam's mobile suits constantly transformed into jet-like fighters.
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>>13765671
S A V A G E
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>>13767147

Gundam's Gundam, they could have a giant black robot with piston-punches and everyone would say it was an original.
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>>13767156
I wasn't arguing originality I was just giving an example of what OP was asking about.
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>>13761469

That seems crazy high for a helicopter. Real image or photoshop?
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>>13767994
Real.
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>>13767147
>jet-like fighters

Well, I mean, if you squint a little, maybe...
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>>13770676

I can see it without squinting. Sure, the main fuselage is a little thick, but that's not too bad for a fighter that operates overwhelming in space rather than in an atmosphere.
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>>13773252
And therein lies the problem.
Show me a Mobile Suit, transformed or not, that's aerodynamically feasible in a typical earth atmosphere.
I'm sure such a thing exists, but I daresay it's quite rare.
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>>13774342
Beep blop blorp gay marriage.
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>>13774398
Seems a bit... tall.
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>>13774406
It flies in the way all modern airframes do, jet engines strapped to something so absurdly heavy that it drops like a rock if you lose power.
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>>13774433
Yeah but, there's usually SOME degree of, y'know, lift involved.
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>>13774454
You can overcome problems like that with hard work and guts.
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>>13774465
How about solving the problem with aerodynamics?
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>>13774470
Hard work and guts. Also, a thermonuclear power plant and thrust vectoring.
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>>13774484
But
Why not also
An actual shape that could potentially generate lift
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>>13774488
Because if you make it look more like a jet than a mobile suit then it falls under Gundam's "everything except for mobile suits are fucking garbage" rule.
>>
In closing, if you want jets in your robot anime, Macross will always be your best bet, though Gundam dips its toes in from time to time.
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>>13761469
You know, I fell in love with the Comanche as a result of Urban Strike. I agree though that there's not much point to a pure scout heli nowadays, when the Apache can do just about the same with the longbow radar system added on top, or any other heli that can add scout systems to their masts.
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>>13774342

I mean, maybe if it has enough thrust...

at least it has wings?
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>>13774488

Because 99% of combat will take place in space

Also because they look cool as fuck without wings
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>>13774488
Because you don't need lift if you have enough power.

How do you think missiles fly?

Those stub wings are just to steer it.
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>>13777079
Because that's a waste of power?
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>>13752102

I find it hilarious how every photo of the T-50 has the intakes photoshop'd darker so the super-radar-reflective turbines aren't visible
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>>13777084
>waste of power?

But a gain in weapon and engine space
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>>13779685
wwww stupid ruskies
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>>13784789
no because without lift surfaces assuming atmospheric combat, you need to have most of the vehicle be engine + fuel as you are essentially making a rocket. This means much less room for weapons or sensors or other things
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>>13777079
It's not that you don't need lift.

Having proper wings and stuff helps in flying the thing(Even if its unstable like modern fighter jets) and the extra surfaces provided by the wings can mount things. Why use stub wings to steer it when you can give it proper wings that can make it easier to fly and also carry missiles or other equipment?
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>>13785181
>That comment on the VF-0's design
Kek. They know it's a Space Tomcat, right?
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>>13785192
>VF-0
>space
Pick one.
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>>13785235
You know what I mean, anon.
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>>13785235

>tfw no F-14A++

I have this dream from time to time that I live in a world where the F-14 has lived as long as the F-15 has.

I cry when I wake up from that dream...
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>>13785235
Did the 14s from Zero get some overtechnology improvements?
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>>13745468
And that thing only got half of its run.
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>>13785752
Nothing too visible, but better wing shifts and engines.
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>>13774511
This, when's the last time a jet did something in gundam that wasn't get wrecked or just be totally trivial in combat?

The awnser is never.
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>>13785235
The VF-1 is so ugly compared to the real Tomcat. Holy shit.
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>>13749361
Wow, only one mention of Airbats, it was an OVA right? I remember watching it like 12 years ago but it seemed to stop abruptly, was it cancelled?
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>>13785931
>https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=4705
Oh well, it was mostly about the harem-hijinx and not the planes anyways.
Rescue Wings was really good anyways, lots of realistic JASDF featured.
>>
>>13785922
Not that anon, but it's actually based on a manga (that also got a spin-off and a sequel). As how these things typically are, it's pretty much a bonus for the manga's fans.
https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=4705
The downside is no one bothered scanlating any of the manga. Heck, Maico 2010 is the only title from the author that's been scanlated.
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>>13785936
If it helps you feel better, Toshimitsu did a couple other plane manga (Eagle Diver and Kurenai). But again, no scanlations. Jet plane manga in general seem to have the short end of the stick (in fact, what happened to the guy scanning those Viz issues of Area 88?).
>Rescue Wings
Neat, never heard of that.
>director did the Tsukihime anime among others
Ouch. That really hurts one's resume.
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>>13785912
I remember the Skygrasper doing damage until it got TOLLE'd.
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>>13759160
I'm pretty sure they've used unmanned planes as target practice for a long time now.
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>>13776731
>ORX-005EX Sturm Jaeger

It's not really a clever design though. It doesn't transform as much a just stick it's head out and unfold its legs.
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>>13788527
better than nothing
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>>13774342
I mean considering the amount of thrust that the Zeta outputs, i could see the Waverider mode working in atmosphere. It wouldn't be as nimble as a traditional Jet but the main purpose is quick getaways from other slower MS' and re-entry.
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>>13759970
You would think so, but no. Several episodes later it is revealed that "secret bases" were hidden long ago that have these craft. The jets reappeared even later and popped up every now and then.
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>>13745382

Didn't the Battletech cartoon have the "TOTALLY NOT MACROSS" Variable Fighters?
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>>13797382
No.
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>>13797382

Those became Unseen during the whole legal troubles of 1993 and 1994, so they weren't available designs for the cartoon which came out in 1994.
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>>13797382
No, instead it had BUSHWHACKER.
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>>13797554

Am I remebering incorrectly or was bushwhacker not an LAM?

I thought the cartoon had no LAMs
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>>13797382
It supposedly had http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Banshee_(Aerospace_Fighter_class)

But an atmo fighter that can go into space is not nearly as cool, although probably almost as technologically complex.
>>
Maybe I'm just willing to overlook anything that could be criticized about the previous but I loved everything about it.

>Freyja not as annoying as Ranka
>Hayate representing youths that don't know what they wanna do in life (not my problem anymore but i respect that his character targets that demographic)
>Jenius character in the show
>emphasis on Valkyrie vs. Valkyrie combat we've missed since Zero and Plus
>ACZ-style Aerial Knights rival squadron
>Sheer number of characters making sense due to the Songstress team being "2nd pilots" to the Delta Squadron
>Drone technology assisting song dissemination
>Idols actually participating in combat and getting up in yo face with muh songs
>dat wing folding on the VF-31
>SV-262
>Draken
>III

Haven't been this excited for an anime since... Uh... I guess Psycho-Pass? Maybe Gundam 00. Haven't seen anything from IBO yet, but Thunderbolt's looking pretty good. For that matter, is anime actually any good nowadays??
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>>13745399
Would I enjoy Macross if everything I've watched/read and liked thus far are super robots?

I've been listening to DYRL repeatedly lately despite never having touched the series.
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>>13803629
>>Freyja not as annoying as Ranka

Them fightin' words, boy...
>>
Don't you remember the best show with transforming jets?

SPACE GUNDAM V

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I45t35j8TSs
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>>13803629
>rival squadron

>forces of good and reason vs terrorist antivaxxers.

Best fucking show ever.
>>
>>13803629
>For that matter, is anime actually any good nowadays??
Battle Spirits and Brave Beats have a good rep so far. Buranki and Active Raid are doing good so far, while Concrete Revolutio hasn't caused much ire. The Dimension W anime adapts a good manga, but there's concern over it skipping around at least one of its story arcs.
>Haven't seen anything from IBO yet
It's a complete load of nothing, so avoid it.
>Thunderbolt's looking pretty good
Some things from the manga are modified or cut out, but you might enjoy it (on a side note, Deacon got further with the manga recently).
>>
>>13803843

What the fuck am I watching
>>
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>>13803706
Yes.
It's fun.
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>>13806960

That's true, but I feel you need to have a caveat that each series is directed towards a different idiot, but that each is crazy fun for said idiot

You know, like how SDF is for your Retro-Elitist, 7 is for "Only 90's kids remember this!" people, and Frontier is for those "I can't watch old anime because of how it looks" faggots
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>>13814476
And Plus is for "Too deep for you?" fags
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>>13814981

Actually, now that I think about it, Plus is for those "90'S KIDS!" kids and 7 is more for those "Gurren Laggen is the greatest anime of all time" people
>>
>>13785031
hey, it's still sexy, and let's be honest, the margin for stealth performance in a world of drone warfare is thick as balls
>>
>>13814981
>>13816170
Plus is for people who like Literally Top Gun
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>>13816386

Well, Top Gun with a Nu-Cyberpunk taste
>>
>>13750175

Anon, the plane Russians are still working on is far worse than Raptor.
>>
>>13818280
Impossible considering the Raptor runs on an antiquated version of an already antiquated programming language
>>
>>13818314

>What are Blocks

Do you imagine the software in Raptors today is the same as it was when the Raptor first came into production?
>>
>>13818280
It is in the prototype phase.
>>
>>13750175
>it's still old and easily outdone by the slavs.
Did you know its not the 1960's anymore?
Western aerospace tech has far outpaced Russia for the last 30 years.
>>
>>13818331
Yeah because all we have to do is magically install Windows and we'll never need a programmer fluent in Ada83 for the rest of the bird's lifespan!

Whole codebase, as with many Government software solutions, is built on dinosaur fossil code. Claim that it's more stable when written in Ada. Pfft, you know what else is stable? WELL WRITTEN CODE IN ANY OTHER LANGUAGE THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY USE THESE DAYS AS OPPOSED TO OLD LANGUAGES THAT REQUIRE YOU SPEND A TINY FORTUNE PICKING UP A CODER WHO HAPPENS TO STILL KNOW HOW TO WRITE IN IT.

Cobol, Ada, Fortran, all of these languages are old and decrepit.
>>
>>13818400
Wow, you actually don't know what Blocks are
>>
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>>13818400
>>
>>13820381
And you don't actually know about software life cycle development.

Not to mention the Integrity RTOS is essentially designed to force ADA development because of the government's hard on and copious amount of cash dumped into its development. Support for C family languages looks to be more recent and/or a concession to the fact people use C far more than ADA.
>>
>>13822272
>Programming your planes in C.

I'm a professional computer scientist with more than 10 years of C/C++, and I have done a lot of Ada too. Unless you're using a subset of C with a lot of static checking, non-trivial proof of correctness, and ISO development, you're basically just shooting yourself in the foot.

Ada has support for things like predicates and secure threads that makes everything much easier. It was created for secure programming and correctness checking, and it is excellent for it. A software programmed in Ada will be, for the most part, assured to work as intended without suddenly exploding because somebody forgot to check the return of your asprintf.

You don't want to code your planes in C like you don't want to code your nuclear power plants in C. This is the stupidest idea imaginable.

Yes, good Ada programmers are rare, but not rarer than C programmers who can somehow navigate the minefield that is this language. I like my job. I am quite at it. But I shiver to think of what would happen if people died for each memory corruption I've ever seen.
>>
>>13818250

Early CGI =/= Cyberpunk
>>
>>13822763
It's working quite fine with the F-35 program though.

The biggest problem with ADA will forever be the fact that it just never caught on as a mainstream language, and even the DOD conceded and stopped mandating its use at some point. Sure it still gets used, partially because of its inherent stability, partially because legacy code and all, but it really ought to be phased out for a more mainstream alternative.

A fork off of C with ADA features would presumably catch on more readily, even if it goes against the golden rule of C (let the coder do whatever they want, even if it's wrong.)
>>
>>13750213
So does Jehuty
>>
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>>13826423

Perhaps we have different definitions of what "Tomcat" means....
>>
Will Eurofront always be the unloved Stepchild of ML?
>>
>>13826459
Maybe if it got an actual plot...
>>
>>13826465

Are you kidding, it has a ton of PLOT
>>
>>13745382
I dunno, but I am watching RahX and it has a lot of fighter planes. And Fafner also has fighter planes.
>>
>>13827962

But are they fighter planes of the transformative type?
>>
>>13826423

Are shoulder-boxes really the most efficient way for those to be carried?
>>
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>>13826436
It's a Tomcat.
>>
>>13833783

Is it as much a useless Hangar Queen as our world's Tomcat?
>>
>>13834597
Well with its Phoenix missiles now being a missile-based delivery system for cluster munitions, it gets to see a lot more action against a more numerous enemy threat than ye olde Soviet nuclear bombers.
>>
>>13834597

The F-14 is a fairly terrific monster in ML. First unit to use cluster munitions, first heavy high-maneuverable, high-performance unit predating the F-15 Eagle by 2 years when the data that spawned both was taken from Operation Palaiologos in 1978, 18 years of straight frontline service all over the globe from Europe to Japan, and being the keystone of the Soviets' Su-27, -37, -47, and everything in-between because Sufoni apparently couldn't into TSF know-how until they got data passed to them during an exchange for F-14s modified for esper abilities to carry out their mad mind-reading Alt. 3 Plan, and upgraded numerous times to keep it in frontline condition from F-14A to F-14F until the cost of maintaining them superseded bearable limits.

Soviet pilots from Alt. 3 whined about how even the F-14D in 1992 was inherently superior to the F-14AN3s they piloted because the clunky esper gear dragged the AN3 down, and how it was superior to both the MiG-31 first deployed in 1990, the F-14AN3's contender for Alt. 3 specialist TSF, and even the Su-27s that at that time was a newly-minted design that had just rolled off the factory lines.

Retired in 2001, the F-14s are being sold mainly to Iran, which uses upgraded F-14s by removing the Phoenix missile cluster munitions for shoulder thrusters and some additional bladed armor, as well as some unspecified pro-US African nations. Soviet licensed-production of the Phoenix missile add-on for their MiG-31s is still on-going.

There is only one other TSF that has an equally illustrious record, and despite the game's focus on Japanese TSFs, it is none of them.
>>
>>13834715
F-15 IS THE STRONKEST, NO MATTER WHAT REALITY YOU LIVE IN.

DEAL WITH IT.
E
A
L

W
I
T
H

I
T
.
>>
>>13834722
Yeah it's the strongest 2nd-generation TSF.

We're up to 3rd generation now with the F-22.
>>
>>13836040
F22 wishes it was as good as F15.
>>
>>13818367
Not Murka's! :^)
>>
>>13826121

I'm not sure about you, but Vocaloids singing songs psychologically designed to be addicting seems pretty cyberpunk to me.
>>
>>13836052

Have they even declassified the F-22's time to climb and MEA stats yet?

I'm sure they're equal if not better.
>>
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>>13842588

We're talking about different timeline here, anon.
>>
>>13749361
The most recent one I can remember is Stratos 4 from back in 03.

oh boy this anime. The premise is literally Asteroids. A shit ton of comets keep continually coming to Earth, so we jets shoot 'em down. That's cool enough.

The show starts out like a sort of sports anime, Mikaze Honjou basically just doesn't give a fuck about her job, but eventually strives To Be The Very Best, There Ever Was. And that's not too bad.

But then we face up a lot of filler.... in a 13 episode anime.

And this includes an episode based around a cat having samurai/kung fu adventures for no real reason.

After a hot springs episodes, the show suddenly decides to have a plot again. There's a bunch of conspiracy bullshit and suddenly there's an alien space virus that spreads through kissing. And of course, we only see women have it. Not-Rei contracts the virus and fails to kiss Mikaze multiple time, and eventually one of the lesbian aliens tells us it didn't totally effect not-Rei because she has autism. Not 4chan insult autism, but actual autism.

h,and the ending is a rushed piece of shit that makes no sense
>>
>>13842658
at least it had my BAC TSR-2 planefu in it.
>>
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>>13842821

Superior Cancelled Planefu
>>
>>13845474
Nice Mikoyan :^)
>>
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>>13845474
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how canceled I am.
>>
>>13766253
Realistically, it would be better for them to ask the Navy. They tend to travel on the same fleets, and Navy pilots are all better quality anyway.
>>
>>13766285
>What a bunch of assholes.
Marines, dude. Comes with the territory.
>>
>>13752102
>The program Ruined the US fighter industry, but it was a boon to foreign made weapon systems.

Explain.
>>
>>13848328
he's shitposting.
the american aerospace industry is one of the healthiest around.
>>
>>13749361
Area 88
>>
Is there anyone else who would like to see a mecha series about Vietnam-era Carrier Battle Group transposed into space?

>why Vietnam?

Because of the diversity of aircraft, which could each be turned into a mech, you had F-4 Phantoms, A-4 Skyhawks, A-6 Intruders, electronic warfare A-3 Skywarriors, and E-2 Hawkeye AEW birds.

And MiG-21 make for some great mooks, with MiG-23s coming in as real gamechangers. I have no idea what a Tu-22 mech would look like, but it would be cool

And then, you reenact the Dance of the Vampires in sapce
>>
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>>13848392
> the american aerospace industry is one of the healthiest around.
If by healthy you mean Lockheed corrupted too many bureaucrat to be seen as the fraud they are, then yes, they are.
>>
>>13848598
You have received a deposit of $0.50 for this post
>>
>>13848598
>having a single multirole plane replacing multiple old frames is bad because muh diversity
>implying allies can't afford it when many have already preordered it like they're 13 and it's the next CoD
>implying $80M for a 5th Gen masterpiece in electronics is even expensive when 4th Gen fighters that can't compete run at $100M
F-35 is based as hell. I used to be a nonbeliever because >muh $1 trillion but when you see the facts you will believe too. Not a pretty plane but it's damn good at what it does.
>>
>>13848636
>but it's damn good at what it does.
Its good at burning money?

Have a single F-35 been delivered at all?
Some countries don't even need the VTOL variant and the VTOL variant is the one variant is holding back the whole thing.
>>
>>13848655
>Has a single F-35 been delivered at all?

Yes, there are dozens in IOC. You fucking retard.

>Some countries don't need the VTOL

Correct. They're buying the As

>the VTOL variant is holding back the design

It isn't. Much of the fuselage design is shaped around the requirement for S-ducts and weapons bays. In the non-B variants, the space taken up by the lift fan is replaced with additional fuel. This gives it somewhat shorter legs, but doesn't "hold back" the A or C in any way shape or form.

So, you're utterly full of shit. Go suck on Pierre Sprey's shriveled balls.
>>
>>13848662
>They're buying the As
And where's the damn fucking F-35 my country ordered?

Where's the planes we fucking ordered if it's already done?
>>
>>13848669
Which country is your country?
>>
>>13848655
>burning money
>$1 trillion for 2500+ new state-of-the-art planes and maintenance till 2065
>>
Sorry to say but an F-35 variable fighter would look totally ugly (if that's what we're talking about). I like when more fictional AC-esque designs are used because they can be badass and don't have to conform to reality's restrictions, which is obvious since they're transforming anyway... Still I'd like an anime about fighters or jets. They don't even need to transform but that would be an added bonus if they did.
>>
>2016
>still Spreyposting
>>
>>13849091

>2016
>F-35 still behind schedule, over-budget, and under-preforming
>>
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>>13848636
> F-35 is based as hell. I used to be a nonbeliever because >muh $1 trillion but when you see the facts you will believe too. Not a pretty plane but it's damn good at what it does.

Wow it's like you live in another world ! Or you are a troll.
The F-35 is already proving to be horrible as a multirole fighter ! Some of its biggest client bought it only because Lockheed corrupted some higher-up to prevent testing other plane first (looking at you Australia) and its field test have to be heavily biased to let it win (and it still manage to lose).

We can wonder if it's even a 5th generation fighter since it can't Supercruise among other thing, they had to made up "tactical supercruise" to hide how it's not shit that it can't maintain supersonic speed without afterburner.

80M per plane ? It already rose to $100M for the A with a real price above $200M, everybody are reducing their command and the only reason it's still in dev is because the US and everybody who preordered it would face utter humiliation and fines if they abandoned it.

Fanboy are left to cling on its "secret feature" like a raft. Hoping it will magically electronic warfare the fuck out of anything attacking it.
>>
>>13849096
My country ordered a bunch of F-35.

Now we're rich as sin so it isn't about the money (there is ALWAYS more money) but fuck delay after delay while we're bombing ISIL with old F-16s.

But if it wasn't for

>muh friendly relations with America

we could have pic related
>>
>>13849095
Except it is literally not any of these things. Since it was readjusted YEARS ago it has been 100% on time and functioning properly.

>>13849096
Is this a pasta? This can't be real.
>>
>>13842658
>And this includes an episode based around a cat having samurai/kung fu adventures for no real reason.

Hey, that episode was great.

>>13849114
>we could have pic related
>Brazil bought a ton of these
>Already tried to bargain with Sweden to lower the prices AFTER the deal
>Agency for Law Enforcement and Prosecution of Crimes is actually reviewing it again due to corruption claims

For fucks sake, it's like you don't wanna have anything but F-5s
>>
>>13849133
Ha funny you should mention the F5. The Dutch airforce ALWAYS buys American.

The Starfighter was infamous for a huge corruption scandal involving the royal Household.

Politics always get in the way.
>>
>tfw my country decided to wait a bit more before deciding whether they actually need the F-35
Good to know that the guys in charge of buying military equipment is smart.
>>
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>>13849096

>The F-35 is already proving to be horrible as a multirole fighter

That's weird given that it's not even in service yet. Just be patient. You will see!
>>
>>13849166

Is it even possible that your nation will be involved in a war without an outside world power taking sides?
>>
>>13849153

Denmark has a military?
>>
>>13849390
I dunno.

We buy american planes because buttbuddies with the US.
>>
>>13849431

Then it doesn't mattet what plane you buy because any war your nation gets into will be decided by the Americans, not by your nation.
>>
>>13745382
knights of sidonia
( the best mecha series since evangelion , deal with it )
have nice cockpit views on combat
>>
>>13849438
>your nation gets into will be decided by the Americans
Not really.

We're on the other side of the globe.
Any conflict that involves us would most probably mean that China is invading or something, in which case we would already be fighting regardless of whether America tells us to.
>>
>>13849554

In which case, what does it matter what your military buys, it's all about whether the Chinese or Americans give more of a fuck about your war?
>>
>>13849566
>what does it matter what your military buys
Because we're surrounded by muslim countries
>>
>>13849554
But is your data link able to support the USAF arsenal when it inevitably sticks its noses into the fray?
>>
>>13849572

Are you from Singapore?
>>
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The F-35 really is multirole.
What other fighter can :
- pretend to be a cheap multirole fighter
- while simultaneously selling itself as CAS oriented and good at Air Superiority
- fake to be deep strike stealth bomber despite being slow
- claim to be the next F-16 and Harrier at the same time
- pass as a 5th generation fighter when its worse than a 4th
- sell itself with promise of secret feature
- force the Congress into paying the development cost of 3 planes
- take the monopoly as the sole aircraft of the US and other country air forces
- before securing its F-22 brother continued existence "for plus value"

And finally scams other country into buying an overpriced plane before it is even complete.

Next trick : claim to be good for anti-submarine mission
>>
>>13849650
Fuck off Pierre.
>>
>>13849650
Wait a second, Pierre

Why are you complaining about a sub-Mach 2 max speed? Because that is exactly what you wanted in your lightweight fighter "Red Bird" concept?

You can't have your cake and eat it too
>>
>>13849744

Can't claim things and then not fulfill them, cuck
>>
>>13849748
You can't whine something that was never a requirement in the first place, especially considering it when it's something you wanted or advocated in the first place during the course of your demagoguery.
>>
>>13849751
>>13849744

Who's this Pierre guy?
>>
>>13849758

The only genius publishing military-related papers anymore
>>
>>13849095
2016 means the F-35 has been on schedule for 6 years.
>>
>>13849758
A con man who sells himself as a designer of the F-16 and A-10 despite never working for Lockheed or Fairchild.
>>
>>13849758

Pierre Sprey worked for the US Department of Defense in 1966-1970. During this time, he somehow became convinced that the US was spending too much money on the F-14 & F-15 projects, and tried to get them both cancelled, proposing a "light-weight, low-cost" fighter as an alternative to both aircraft. Pierre believed that an immensely simplified "low-tech" fighter, without radar, would be more affordable (and more effective in large numbers) than the F-14 & F-15. His ideas were largely ignored and he eventually left the DoD, but he continued his crusade against the F-14 & F-15 in other spheres. He joined various "military reform" lobbyist groups and they used his idea of a "low-cost fighter" as a way to argue for reduced military spending. Ultimately, they wanted Congress to completely take the power of procurement away from the US military, and allow politicians to choose what planes were used instead.

Thankfully, none of his attempts to undermine the US military were ever successful. He is eternally butt-hurt about this, and thus he occasionally goes on Russia Today or other newspapers and gives interviews where he basically says "The F-35 is the worst plane ever! My ideas were great! If only the pentagon had listened!"

In other words, he's an old man with a lifelong grudge against the Pentagon because they didn't think his idea for a radarless fighter jet was cool.
>>
>>13849820
How would a radarless fighter compete in this radar dependent world?
>>
>>13849820

Oh. It's just Sprey. I thought you guys were talking about an oldie tripfag or something.
>>
>>13849820
>"[Sprey's] basic concepts have been considered in detail by the Services during the formative stages of the F-14 and F-15, have been reviewed by DDR&E [Deputy Director of Research and Evaluation], and rejected in all decisions to date...the reconsideration of the concept [VF-XX/F-XX] as a viable alternative should have been turned down before submission to the services...

>In common with past papers by the same author, this study contains many fallacious assumptions, half-truths, distortions, and erroneous extrapolations. Unsubstantiated opinions are presented as facts. Any rebuttals give the appearance of arguments against the rudimentary virtues of simplicity, high performance, and low cost." 25

>This response, while delivered with feeling, was factual and analytical and effectively blunted Sprey's attempt to forward the DPM. It also showed that Sprey was out of his class when confronted with knowledgeable aeronautical engineers, but it was a valuable lesson for Sprey, Boyd, Riccioni, and other Critics -- do not make arguments in front of experts. Their arguments would only achieve traction when they could present them to non-engineers unaware of the complexity and trade-offs of aircraft design

The Revolt of the Majors is GOAT
>>
>>13849820
Wooooow !!!! Nice historical revisionism and selective memory !!!
First of all, while the F-15 turned out to be pretty pretty good, the F-14 costed a lot of money to operate and was retired early.

>>13849758
Pierre Sprey (look for yourself) is also the guy who made the A-10 and the F-16 (said lightweight fighter), two of the best fighters the US ever had and sold.

He is also a man who admitted his own error when originally he didn't wanted a radar (technology which he still supported) on the F-16, and one should note that at the time radar where far from efficient, radar guided missile missed more than half of the time and you relayed on AWACS to have real information. Dogfight was still a thing.
>>
>>13849892
>In common with past papers by the same author, this study contains many fallacious assumptions, half-truths, distortions, and erroneous extrapolations. Unsubstantiated opinions are presented as facts. Any rebuttals give the appearance of arguments against the rudimentary virtues of simplicity, high performance, and low cost
>>
>>13849820
> allow politicians to choose what planes were used instead
for all the things i could able to comprehend with my might, this is the point where i don't even fathomed.

i mean, who the fuck think that politician can make such decisions? what all they're doing was fuck your ass up, all the time.
job classification has it's perks. let politician decide what military equipment should have will fuck everyone's ass to the eternity.
>>
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>>13849910
> Ultimately, they wanted Congress to completely take the power of procurement away from the US military, and allow politicians to choose what planes were used instead.
...and that's why the F-35 was selected (after a fly-off comparison with the Boeing prototype, something Sprey is also responsible for).

NICE CHOICE !!!!
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/fd-how-the-u-s-and-its-allies-got-stuck-with-the-worlds-worst-new-warplane-5c95d45f86a5
>>
>>13849939
>War is Boring
>>
>>13849939
I knew that was a David Axe hack job before I even opened it.
>>
>>13849650
- is a cheap multirole fighter that can perform CAS and is good at Air Superiority
- replace both F-16 and Harrier at the same time because it covers both roles while also giving more capabilities to the pilot
- pass as a 5th generation fighter when it's better than everything it is replacing
- allow Congress to replace multiple aircraft while paying development costs much cheaper than developing 3 different planes and it doesn't need a "secret feature" to sell it
- replace other old and busted aircraft while being the greatest multirole aircraft in the US and other country air forces
- before securing its F-22 brother continued existence by virtue of its unrivalled air superiority and how the two aircraft work with each other's strengths to have the best air power on Earth

You are a Chinese shill who hates the US because we have the strongest military and the smartest people working here. Stop spreading lies. This is how the process works and has always worked. F-35 is no different.
>>
>>13849114
You are Dutch right?

Your country already has its first F-35's, and why would you buy Gripens when they are just a non American F-16 equivalent.

http://airheadsfly.com/2016/01/26/dutch-lightning-testers/
>>
>>13745382
>fighter jets that turn into mecha
When we advance to the point that this is practical or necessary for some reason, lasers will have already rendered jets obsolete.

If you gotta have jets, put them in space. Space jets are also absolutely fucking retarded, but just about everything about space combat is retarded and not fun.
>>
>>13849967
> implying skeptic are all from a chinese conspiracy
You had to make quite incredible jump of logic along a strong denial to make this list.

>>13849939
this article tell quite a sad tales of interservice competition in the US Army. The Air Force, the Marines and the Navy all trying to get their own equipment even if it mean splitting a fighter into 3 versions.

the F-35 would certainly have been better in every way without the stupid VTOL.
>>
>>13850104
>the F-35 would certainly have been better in every way without the stupid VTOL.

Now lets see you quantify this statement.
>>
>>13850104
Sorry, it's too easy when the English is that poor.
>implying so-called skeptics actually know shit about the program and aren't just misinformed
>implying warisboring is a real source
>>
>>13850121
Debunked

See >>13848662
>>
>>13849892

>Pierre Sprey (look for yourself) is also the guy who made the A-10 and the F-16

The F-16 was designed and made by General Dynamics. There is no record of Pierre Sprey having ever worked for General Dynamics.

The A-10 was designed and manufactured by Fairchild Republic. There is no record of Pierre Sprey ever working for Fairchild Republic.

How does this man get away with saying that he designed either aircraft?
>>
>>13850104

>the F-35 would certainly have been better in every way without the stupid VTOL.

Except only 1 version of the F-35 is STOVL, so it is a stupid complaint.
>>
>>13849836

>How would a radarless fighter compete in this radar dependent world?

The idea was that getting rid of radar would make the airplane smaller & cheaper, so you would be able to field it in larger numbers, and pilots would be forced to go "back to the fundamentals" rather than relying on radar-guided missiles. This line of thinking was based entirely' on the USAF's experiences in Vietnam where radar-guided missiles were unreliable and often failed to lock on to smaller, fighter-sized targets.

The problem with this idea is that radar-guided missiles quickly got a lot better than they were in Vietnam. And even in Vietnam, the missiles weren't as much the problem as the dismal training of USAF pilots at the time. The US navy pilots did a lot better against the MiGs because they had superior training, even though they were using the exact same planes and missiles as the USAF at the time.
>>
>>13850184
And one article saying "Sprey Designer of ...F-16, A-10" on the go
http://airwingmedia.com/pilots/2014/pierre-sprey-designer-f16-a10-says-f35-lemon/
Just how desperate are you to pretend there's no critic of the F-35 ?

>>13850155 >>13850221
> Except only 1 version of the F-35 is STOVL, so it is a stupid complaint.

Well, we can't expect moron like you to understand airplane design.
Because 1 version is STOVL mean the 2 other version, built with the same frame, had to make sacrifice in aerodynamic and radar cross section because of the lift fan. If it never needed it the F-35 would have been made differently and be able to supercruise, it might even be more agile than a F-16 with two fuel tank !

Go back reading the medium article above, it should be simple enough for you to understand.
>>
>>13850281
still not seeing any actual sources.
>>
>>13850281

Cross sections makes it clear that you're utterly full of shit. Say what?
>>
>>13850281

>Because 1 version is STOVL mean the 2 other version, built with the same frame, had to make sacrifice in aerodynamic and radar cross section because of the lift fan.

Nope. The other versions of the F-35 just use the empty space from the missing lift fan to carry more fuel, increasing the range of the aircraft. There is no wasted space.
>>
>>13850281
>Well, we can't expect moron like you to understand airplane design.

protip, the liftfan in the B model has no effect on the A and C model beyond providing space for a fuel tank
>>
>>13849820
>allow politicians to choose what planes were used instead

But that's precisely how it happens; our military brass is *saturated* with careerist politicians and corporatist hacks!
>>
>>13850281

How did Pierre Sprey design the F-16 when he never worked for General Dynamics?

How did Pierre Sprey design the A-10 when he never worked for Fairchild-Republic?

He's essentially a con-man, claiming credit for other people's work.
>>
>>13752019
>that seems kinda wasteful

Welcome to the Murken military, where style outweighs substance and one-upmanship at the expense of cohesion and institutional integrity is the norm.
>>
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>>13850425
>having to respond to yourself a day later because no one took a bite
>>
>>13850425
maybe everone else should be as unorganized, then they wouldn't need our help all the time.
>>
>>13850347
> I don't know what cross section is

>>13850352 >>13850375
The F-35 fuselage had to be made wider to accommodate the lift-fan, which sacrificed the aerodynamic and increased the cross section (basically reducing its stealth)
So because the stupid STOVL version the F-35 can't supercruise, lost in agility and stealth.
Without the STOVL they would have been able to put more fuel by default, more weapon inside anyway, but this way the F-35 would also save more less fuel thanks to supercruise, be more stealthy, and more agile.

If you don't understand the topic, just admit it.
>>
>>13850727

>Without the STOVL they would have been able to put more fuel by default

Of course. Which is exactly why the two versions which don't have the lift fan have larger fuel tanks to fill in that space!

The F-35's body seems wide because it needs space for internal weapon's bays. It has nothing to do with the lift-fan. It has to do with fitting two 2000 lb bombs + two AIM-120s inside of the plane.

Even if STOVL had never been a requirement, the F-35A would look very similar to how it looks now. Possibly identical, because the internal weapons requirements would be the same.
>>
>>13850727
>increased the cross section (basically reducing its stealth)
You totally have numbers to back this up, right?
>>
>>13850784
it's like three faces all fused into one, and they're all screaming FEED ME CHECHENS
>>
>>13850784
Can the F-35 out turn, or out climb a F-16? Given its noticeably larger I doubt it can do either of those things.
>>
>>13850827
Yes, actually.
But the whole point of the JSF is that it doesn't need to turnfight.
>>
>>13850829
Really, I thought the F-16 still had the fastest rate of climb among all active fighters. Guess as long as it still has the same range as a F-16 with drop tanks it can effectively do the same job, or better.
>>
>>13850827

The truth is that we just don't know the answer to that question because the F-35 is still operating under testing parameters and thus it can't use its full maneuverability. It would be very hard to beat the F-16's sustained turn rate, given that it pretty much has the best-sustained turn-rate ever.

One factor is that the F-35 has a MUCH larger internal fuel tank than the F-16. This means that the F-35 has much better range, but it also needs to burn its fuel to about 50% capacity to get its thrust/weight ratio above 1. I think that's an acceptable compromise.

>>13850847

F-16's claim-to-fame is sustained turn rate. In terms of rate of climb, it is just average.
>>
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>>13850827
Similar kinematic performance to an F/A-18, so lower sustained turn rates, but higher instantaneous rate, and MUCH higher angle of attack limitations.
>>
>>13751752
yes for the radar systems, even the most recent. Tubes can also hold more important currents than semiconductors could, and i'm certain you'll find some of these "old fashioned" components next to a PowerPC on a electronics countermeasures pod.
>>
>>13850727
The F-35 body is 'wider' because of internal weapon bays.
>>
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>>13850463
Who's talking to themselves?

>>13850476
Maybe they should stop relying on us all the time and just do it themselves, then they'd get far better results.
>>
>>13850829
>hurr durr dogfighting is obsolete

laughing Viets.jpg
>>
>>13851736
They got shit on pretty hard.
>>
SPREY PLS GO AND STAY GO.
>>
>>13851849
Not with anything even remotely resembling impunity, which speaks volumes when our stuff was cutting edge and theirs was mostly comprised of previous generation monkey model dogfighters.
>>
>>13852010
dogfights are dead
>>
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>>13852090
>The F-4's biggest weakness, as it was initially designed, was its lack of an internal cannon. For a brief period, doctrine held that turning combat would be impossible at supersonic speeds and little effort was made to teach pilots air combat maneuvering. In reality, engagements quickly became subsonic, as pilots would slow down in an effort to get behind their adversaries. Furthermore, the relatively new heat-seeking and radar-guided missiles at the time were frequently reported as unreliable and pilots had to use multiple shots (also known as ripple-firing), just to hit one enemy fighter. To compound the problem, rules of engagement in Vietnam precluded long-range missile attacks in most instances, as visual identification was normally required. Many pilots found themselves on the tail of an enemy aircraft but too close to fire short-range Falcons or Sidewinders. Although by 1965 USAF F-4Cs began carrying SUU-16 external gunpods containing a 20 mm (.79 in) M61A1 Vulcan Gatling cannon, USAF cockpits were not equipped with lead-computing gunsights until the introduction of the SUU-23, virtually assuring a miss in a maneuvering fight. Some Marine Corps aircraft carried two pods for strafing. In addition to the loss of performance due to drag, combat showed the externally mounted anon to be inaccurate unless frequently boresighted, yet far more cost-effective than missiles.

Nice chart, by the way, though you really oughta change that filename to lies, damned lies and statistics.png
>>
>>13852215
how does this disprove my point that there hasn't been an aerial dogfight involving guns since then.
its literally all been missile kills.
>>
>>13745382
I just want a mech show where they can turn into any vehicle
>>
>>13851237 >>13850784
> The F-35 body is 'wider' because of internal weapon bays.
At least one of you recognize it's wider than normal, but the reason it's wider is because they simply couldn't fit both the fan lift and normal internal bay, that's why the STOVL crippled the plane from the very design phase.

Just look at the F-22 bays design and compare it to that >>13850784 it didn't waste space !
If the plan never included STOVL in the first place they would have designed it to store more than 2 bombs and 2 missiles internally for the A & C version and the fuselage would've been more aerodynamic, faster & with greater range.

It's certainly amazing this fighter can fly, but it's a waste worth several programs. It's simply wasn't worth it.
Now they have to dream up painfully specific mission plans with little room for reality.

Ironically the F-35 is proof we would funds transformable fighters even for dubious gain
>>
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Oh, guess this is the time to post this.

Please proceed.
>>
>>13854630
>Pierre Sprey not the free space
>>
>>13854684
Let's have Sparks giving him a rimjob while we're at it.
>>
>>13854630
I'm thinking we could make a bingo out of these bingos memes :
"mock culture the author don't like"
"mock website the author don't like"
"shit on person the author don't like"
"make strawman arguments out of others'"
"push a clearly biased subtext"
"have ill-defined case that would apply to anything ever"

can't find more, I'm out
>>
>>13854388
Is your IQ in the single digits?

Take another look at that picture of the F-35 bays and a picture of the F-35B's lift fan. Then, if you aren't an ideologue full of so much hot air, you will admit to being utterly full of shit.

But of course, you are an idiotic ideologue, who will repeat the same tired broken claims like a boat with only one oar -- circling in ever smaller revolutions until it is dead in the water
>>
>>13852239
You're the one who thought it was a good idea to cite Vietnam statistics as evidence that dogfighting was dead.
>>
>>13855307
Its proof that even during Vietnam, gun kills made up far less air combat kills compared to missiles. Are you legitimately stupid? You must be.
>>
>>13852010
>Not with anything even remotely resembling impunity

When you compare numbers, it is highly one sided.
>>
>>13854708
The bingo chart is a list of long debunked claims that still get parroted by F-35 detractors.
>>
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>>13855331
I could ask the same of you (pic related).

>>13856119
Not really; less than 2:1 at worst and not even 3:1 at best (not including SVAF losses).
>>
>>13751750
What the fuck is going on in that webm
>>
>>13862018
cuhrayzee shit
>>
>>13859012
Try going over the numbers again, but without counting bomber and SAM kills.
>>
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>>13859012
>>13862070
>>
>>13751750
Everything in that gif is about as far from 'surprisingly well' as you can get if you have any kinds of expectations.
>>
>>13849364
The F-35 lost a dogfight against an F-16 loaded with fucking drop tanks that it never got rid of, which would never fucking happen in a dogfight, and the headgear for the F-35 is so obnoxiously oversized the pilot literally couldn't turn his head to look behind him in the cockpit.
>>
>>13862372
>The F-35 lost a dogfight against an F-16

Except that never happened, try to not get your information on military hardware from tabloids.
>>
>>13852010
The fact we actually have the tech to operate those doctrines now should be worth noting.

because the F-4 sure as shit wasn't capable of BVR no matter how cutting edge it was. The brass built a bad ass civic, and thought it could do Le Mans. EO-DAS is nearly videogame-tier in how much better it works and sure as shit could make Nam tactics work. Hell, worked fine in yugoslavia with Eagles. Seriously though. The F4 had shit radar and period missiles were garbage. BVR shouldn't have been attempted until the 80s. That problem is long gone though. AN/APG-81, EO-DAS, 120Ds and 9X Block IIIs can handle it fine.
>>
>>13854388

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove given that the ENTIRE airframe of the F-22 is larger than the F-35. They're both medium-sized fighter jets, but the F-22 is still considerably larger. The body length of the F-22 is about 21% greater and the wingspan is about 27% wider than that of the F-35. The Raptor's empty weight is also 49% greater than that of Lightning.
>>
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Why the fuck does anything thread that makes even a passing remark at fighter jets always turn to the F-35?

Why don't we discuss something different for a change.

Like the J-20. You see that new yellow prototype? Pretty sweet.
>>
>>13852010

The biggest problem that the USAF had in Vietnam was poor training for pilots. It's almost not an exaggeration to say they didn't receive any combat training at all. The Navy did a lot better against the MiGs, primarily because Top Gun.
>>
>>13862997
Because its garbage till the chinks figure out how not to fuck up jet engines.
>>
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>>13862997
>Why the fuck does anything thread that makes even a passing remark at fighter jets always turn to the F-35?

Anti-American/anti-military butthurt combined with people mad that money being spent on the F-35 is money not being spent on their pet subject.

The J-20 shows promise, the FC-31 is just an export plane trying to cash in on being an F-22/F-35 knockoff.

You can bait PAK-FA fans by pointing out it is a stealthy Flanker.
>>
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>>13863352
>>
>>13863380

Damn, were Soviet engines ever that smokey?
>>
>>13863352
>Anti-American/anti-military butthurt

Most of the criticism of the F-35 comes from military circles though. Also, that picture is bad bait since it actually shows that the T-50 and Flanker are radically different.
>>
>>13850784
>Even if STOVL had never been a requirement, the F-35A would look very similar to how it looks now. Possibly identical, because the internal weapons requirements would be the same.

Not true, the reason the F-35 has a split weapons bay is because there needs to be room in the middle for the thrust from the lift fan to come out. Without the STOVL requirement it would look different since having one large weapons bay is better than having two smaller ones. Not to mention Lockmart would have gone with a single weapons bay is possible since it meant they could recycle they work they already did on the F-22's main weapon bay, instead of wasting resources designing and testing a new one.
>>
>>13850784
>The F-35's body seems wide because it needs space for internal weapon's bays.

Yet the FC-31 does not have this problem.
>>
>>13863782
>Most of the criticism of the F-35 comes from military circles though

Not really though?

Unless you consider private lobby groups military circles.

Most military members with hands on experience with the F-35 haven't said much about the bird outside of official Air Force press releases because they're under orders not to say anything.
>>
>>13863784

There exists and image of the J-31 with open weapon bays?
>>
>>13848662
>Yes, there are dozens in IOC.

You do realize that all those aircraft are going to have to be sent back to lockheed to be rebuilt right? They are nothing more than glorified prototypes.
>>
>>13863787

And your source for this is...
>>
>>13848636
>$80M

That is the cost without radar and the engine, you do realize that right?

> 5th Gen masterpiece in electronics

Yeah it's electronics are so good that it has to rely on the already decades old F-22 to do anything. "Masterpiece" my ass. You do realize you can put the same/better radar and electronics in another plane like the eurofighter and it will work just as well right? They don't somehow magically become better just because they are installed on a F-35. That is not how technology works.
>>
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>>13863781

sorta
>>
>>13863798
>implying
if the AN/APG-81 fit on the F-22 it'd BE THERE.
>>
Well Muv Luv is currently airing and its concept is taking irl cold war planes and turning them into mecha.
>>
>>13863782
>since it actually shows that the T-50 and Flanker are radically different

The canards are merged into the wings, sure.
>>
>>13862780
>tl;dr missiles have gotten better

So have countermeasures.

>>13863000
>The biggest problem that the USAF had in Vietnam was poor training for pilots. It's almost not an exaggeration to say they didn't receive any combat training at all.

Them's the consequences of retarded doctrines espoused by retarded brasshats.

>Top Gun

Yes, the "elite" school that teaches what every other air force in the world views as basic curriculum for pilot training.
>>
>>13865620
>Yes, the "elite" school that teaches what every other air force in the world views as basic curriculum for pilot training.

Not even close
>>
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>>13745382
Whatever stops the space rats infestation I suppose.
>>
>>13868236
>trying to oneup cursefag
>>
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>>13868243
You rang?
>>
>>13868290
kisama
Thread replies: 320
Thread images: 67
Thread DB ID: 506678



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